Why are not all hispanics URM but all blacks are?

[Happensinvegas]

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Legitimate question: Why is it that for hispanics, the race is broken down by country to determine URM status, but for blacks, it doesn't matter?

I feel that hispanic is hispanic no matter the origin. We all speak the same language, grew up in similar conditions and all have relatively the same customs and traditions (give and take some). Just by looking at a hispanic person you cannot tell what country they are from, and most hispanic immigrants to the US all face the same challenges. To me, it really shouldn't matter what country a hispanic person is from, because to other hispanics it doesn't matter. Honestly, a Colombian patient isn't going to distrust a doctor of Guatemalan or Bolivian decent.

Blacks on the other hand, it doesn't matter the origin. It doesn't matter to med schools if it is a US born black person or an immigrant from the Congo. It doesn't matter if the black persons family has been here since the 1600's or if their parents moved to the states in the 1980's from Cameroon.

Can anyone please explain how on Earth it makes sense to break hispanics down by country of origin?

 

[NoTownPreMed]

I wish the same process can be broken down for Asian's. From my understanding, regardless of what kind of "Asian" you are, being classified as a URM is out of the question.

 

[mimelim]

A few issues...

#1 This isn't about you. This is about calculations performed by the government about need.
#2 There are a lot of Hispanics that identify by their national origin. For some that identification is quite strong.
#3 Just because you don't see differences between different Hispanics, doesn't mean that others don't. From my limited interactions with the Peruvian and Cuban communities here and where I grew up, I think that you are in for a surprise.

Edit: Fixed a bad run-on

 

[ZedsDed]

Legitimate question: Why is it that for hispanics, the race is broken down by country to determine URM status, but for blacks, it doesn't matter?

I feel that hispanic is hispanic no matter the origin. We all speak the same language, grew up in similar conditions and all have relatively the same customs and traditions (give and take some). Just by looking at a hispanic person you cannot tell what country they are from, and most hispanic immigrants to the US all face the same challenges. To me, it really shouldn't matter what country a hispanic person is from, because to other hispanics it doesn't matter. Honestly, a Colombian patient isn't going to distrust a doctor of Guatemalan or Bolivian decent.

Blacks on the other hand, it doesn't matter the origin. It doesn't matter to med schools if it is a US born black person or an immigrant from the Congo. It doesn't matter if the black persons family has been here since the 1600's or if their parents moved to the states in the 1980's from Cameroon.

Can anyone please explain how on Earth it makes sense to break hispanics down by country of origin?

Different historical roots. Hispanic people (which includes anything from Mestizos to those of European descent to anything in between, and not everyone in that spectrum is disadvantaged) were never enslaved en masse in America.

 

[chemist16]

#1 This isn't about you. This is about calculations performed by the government about need.

Government calculations are often political and arbitrary. But I am in danger of opening a Pandora's box, so I won't dote on this issue much as it's a matter of personal opinion to me.

#2 There are a lot of Hispanics that identify by their national origin. For some that identification is quite strong.
#3 Just because you don't see differences between different Hispanics, doesn't mean that others don't. From my limited interactions with the Peruvian and Cuban communities here and where I grew up, I think that you are in for a surprise.

I agree and I think that a better way to phrase OP's challenge is that there are vast differences between blacks - between African Americans raised in the U.S., immigrant Africans, and descendants of African immigrants (recently immigrated). You can't deny that the culture is very different and I have friends of both kinds. The African American culture is very different from Ethiopian culture, for example. So OP's overarching question still holds - why no breaking down of classifications for Africans but yes for Hispanics?

 

[NoTownPreMed]

A few issues...

#1 This isn't about you. This is about calculations performed by the government about need.
#2 There are a lot of Hispanics that identify by their national origin. For some that identification is quite strong.
#3 Just because you don't see differences between different Hispanics, doesn't mean that others don't. From my limited interactions with the Peruvian and Cuban communities here and where I grew up, I think that you are in for a surprise.

Edit: Fixed a bad run-on

Since you are here mimelim, there is an ongoing misconception as to who should fall under the "URM" category. Do admission committees make special considerations for those they "believe" should be under that category if not listed under the traditional "URM" list?

 

[chemist16]

Different historical roots. Hispanic people (which includes anything from Mestizos to those of European descent to anything in between, and not everyone in that spectrum is disadvantaged) were never enslaved en masse in America.

Nor were Haitian blacks - not in America anyway.

 

[Happensinvegas]

Different historical roots. Hispanic people (which includes anything from Mestizos to those of European descent to anything in between, and not everyone in that spectrum is disadvantaged) were never enslaved en masse in America.

As I mentioned in my original post: A black student whose parents moved here from Africa in the 1980s was also not enslaved en masse in America.

Also, hispanics of all country origins possibly face a huge disparity in the Verbal part of the MCAT if they speak Spanish at home, they don't have as much interaction with English as their White/Black american peers.

Again, MOST hispanics don't care about country of origin. I am south american hispanic and I work with many mexican americans and they literally couldn't care less that I am not mexican. They are just happy that someone can speak spanish fluently to them and explain to them what's going on without having to have a translator as a middle man. I think the biggest point of having more hispanics in the medical field is to better interact with the influx of non-english speaking hispanics into the USA that create a large patient base.

 

[The Real SVB]

 

[VitaminVater]

Hey at least there's discussion of Hispanic students applying and it's not an entire outrage thread about an undocumented person that was allowed to attend med school.

#smallvictories

 

[slow twitch]

Hey at least there's discussion of Hispanic students applying and it's not an entire outrage thread about an undocumented person that was allowed to attend med school.

#smallvictories

but now that you mentioned it...

 

[deleted393595]

Legitimate question: Why is it that for hispanics, the race is broken down by country to determine URM status, but for blacks, it doesn't matter?

I feel that hispanic is hispanic no matter the origin. We all speak the same language, grew up in similar conditions and all have relatively the same customs and traditions (give and take some). Just by looking at a hispanic person you cannot tell what country they are from, and most hispanic immigrants to the US all face the same challenges. To me, it really shouldn't matter what country a hispanic person is from, because to other hispanics it doesn't matter. Honestly, a Colombian patient isn't going to distrust a doctor of Guatemalan or Bolivian decent.

Blacks on the other hand, it doesn't matter the origin. It doesn't matter to med schools if it is a US born black person or an immigrant from the Congo. It doesn't matter if the black persons family has been here since the 1600's or if their parents moved to the states in the 1980's from Cameroon.

Can anyone please explain how on Earth it makes sense to break hispanics down by country of origin?

Solid 11/10 trolling. The +1 is for snagging @mimelim along 😛

 

[mimelim]

Since you are here mimelim, there is an ongoing misconception as to who should fall under the "URM" category. Do admission committees make special considerations for those they "believe" should be under that category if not listed under the traditional "URM" list?

No, not really. If someone has an interesting story (the Ukrainian kid who grew up in inner city St. Louis, and grew up around 99% African Americans) that happens to involve race/ethnicity will peak some people's interest to keep reading. But, if you get caught putting something that the school doesn't consider you based on their/government definitions (right or wrong as they may be), you can consider it a big black mark.

 

[mimelim]

Solid 11/10 trolling. The +1 is for snagging @mimelim along 😛

The distance between troll and uninformed (ie average) pre-med is staggeringly small. In general, I err on the side of 'helping', worst case, the lurkers that had similar questions get some answers and a fair few PM later to clarify a real question. *shrug*

 

[RedPhys]

Can anyone please explain how on Earth it makes sense to break hispanics down by country of origin?

They do? In my interviews, all that mattered was that I speak Spanish fluently and can relate culturally to Spanish-speaking patients.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

They do? In my interviews, all that mattered was that I speak Spanish fluently and can relate culturally to Spanish-speaking patients.

I believe they do for URM status. Although, the interpretation can vary from school to school.

 

[Goro]

It boils down to this: medical schools feel that there are plenty of Cuban and Columbian doctors, but not enough Mexican and Puerto Rican doctors.

Some schools may alter their view to include Hmong or other Asian minorities to be URM.

And remember: it's what the school wants, not what the applicant wants.

 

[RedPhys]

It boils down to this: medical schools feel that there are plenty of Cuban and Columbian doctors, but not enough Mexican and Puerto Rican doctors.

Some schools may alter their view to include Hmong or other Asian minorities to be URM.

And remember: it's what the school wants, not what the applicant wants.

Colombian (sorry...)

Also, had no idea we were an ORM relative to other Hispanics .. We're taking over, @Cyberdyne 101 😀

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Colombian (sorry...)

Also, had no idea we were an ORM relative to other Hispanics .. We're taking over, @Cyberdyne 101 😀

Might be ORM in Miami. I don't think that's the case in NYC though.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

@RedPhys, you should check out this video if you have any interest in spine surgery.

The neurosurgeon who's doing the procedure is Colombian.

 

[Pholaffle]

I guess most schools and the government define a majority of the African community to be under represented as a whole, whereas the hispanic groups are represented in different amounts that disqualifies certain ethnic groups of the URM status.

 

[LizzyM]

Educate yourselves to how URM is defined. https://www.aamc.org/initiatives/urm/

 

[Happensinvegas]

I guess most schools and the government define a majority of the African community to be under represented as a whole, whereas the hispanic groups are represented in different amounts that disqualifies certain ethnic groups of the URM status.

I think you missed the whole purpose of the thread. It is true that both blacks and hispanics are under represented, but why is there a difference in different hispanic groups in the eyes of adcoms when in the eyes of most hispanics, country of origin doesn't matter. Most hispanic patients just want a hispanic doctor who can directly communicate with them and understands their culture, they don't necessarily care where that doctor comes from.

Though I have not researched it, I would bet the same blacks are Over Represented, while others are under if it were broken down by country of origin. You'd actually probably find that the number of doctors who are recent immigrants from africa probably better align, or probably over-align with the overall recent immigrants from africa while the traditional african-americans who have been here for centuries remain under represented. **I say this because I worked at a large hospital in a large city and almost all the black doctors there were african immigrants. I did not know a single african-american doctor in that hospital. However in the general population I only know of 1-2 recent african immigrants while almost all the black people I know in the public realm were african-american**

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I think you missed the whole purpose of the thread. It is true that both blacks and hispanics are under represented, but why is there a difference in different hispanic groups in the eyes of adcoms when in the eyes of most hispanics, country of origin doesn't matter. Most hispanic patients just want a hispanic doctor who can directly communicate with them and understands their culture, they don't necessarily care where that doctor comes from.

Though I have not researched it, I would bet the same blacks are Over Represented, while others are under if it were broken down by country of origin. You'd actually probably find that the number of doctors who are recent immigrants from africa probably better align, or probably over-align with the overall recent immigrants from africa while the traditional african-americans who have been here for centuries remain under represented. **I say this because I worked at a large hospital in a large city and almost all the black doctors there were african immigrants. I did not know a single african-american doctor in that hospital. However in the general population I only know of 1-2 recent african immigrants while almost all the black people I know in the public realm were african-american**

I don't think non-URM Hispanics with decent stats have a hard time getting into med school.

 

[moisne]

I wish the same process can be broken down for Asian's. From my understanding, regardless of what kind of "Asian" you are, being classified as a URM is out of the question.

Vietnamese is URM

 

[NoTownPreMed]

Vietnamese is URM

The same can be said if you're "Hmong, Laotian, and Cambodian". But under the current guidelines for "URM", it doesn't break down the exception. I could be wrong.

 

[moisne]

The same can be said if you're "Hmong, Laotian, and Cambodian". But under the current guidelines for "URM", it doesn't break down the exception. I could be wrong.

Yeah I'm not too sure - I just know my roommate is URM

 

[gyngyn]

Yeah I'm not too sure - I just know my roommate is URM

Vietnamese are under-represented in colleges and universities.
UIM refers to proportion of physicians/community.
Due to the pattern of immigration from Vietnam (much like the Philippines) this group is not under-represented in medicine. Some medical schools adopt the policies of their undergrad admissions, though.

 

[gyngyn]

The same can be said if you're "Hmong, Laotian, and Cambodian". But under the current guidelines for "URM", it doesn't break down the exception. I could be wrong.

These groups are considered UIM by at least several medical schools in CA.

 

[NoTownPreMed]

These groups are considered UIM by at least several medical schools in CA.

Ahhh that makes sense. Thanks for the breakdown.

 

[WhaleFace]

I think you missed the whole purpose of the thread. It is true that both blacks and hispanics are under represented, but why is there a difference in different hispanic groups in the eyes of adcoms when in the eyes of most hispanics, country of origin doesn't matter. Most hispanic patients just want a hispanic doctor who can directly communicate with them and understands their culture, they don't necessarily care where that doctor comes from.

Though I have not researched it, I would bet the same blacks are Over Represented, while others are under if it were broken down by country of origin. You'd actually probably find that the number of doctors who are recent immigrants from africa probably better align, or probably over-align with the overall recent immigrants from africa while the traditional african-americans who have been here for centuries remain under represented. **I say this because I worked at a large hospital in a large city and almost all the black doctors there were african immigrants. I did not know a single african-american doctor in that hospital. However in the general population I only know of 1-2 recent african immigrants while almost all the black people I know in the public realm were african-american**

I think a lot of what your latter paragraph is trying to say is hard to determine. i know that the majority of black doctors do happen to be African but just because their is a distinction in culture doesn't mean their is a distinction in experience. Take it from someone who is a product from parents who immigrated here from Africa but also have been surrounded by largely African Americans most of my life. What would you suggest I say is my nationality? Should I not be considered URM? Ultimately, it is my decision what I identify as and regardless of which I seem to identify asthe group/groups our still URM. I know URM has its advantages but honestly all it is a check in a box of one part of the application process. It's not necessarily a golden ticket. Not necessarily saying you didn't know this but you seem to have some really strong views from cultures I'm not sure you know much about.

 

[BlueCircle]

I wish the same process can be broken down for Asian's. From my understanding, regardless of what kind of "Asian" you are, being classified as a URM is out of the question.

Some schools consider Filipinos URM. I would like to see more schools following suite

 

[BlueCircle]

Vietnamese is URM

LOL. I highly doubt that. A disportionately large percentage of them pursue med school. URM asians are Filipinos, Hmong, Cambodian etc.

 

[gyngyn]

Some schools consider Filipinos URM. I would like to see more schools following suite

URM asians are Filipinos, Hmong, Cambodian etc.

Filipinos comprise the second largest group of practicing immigrant physicians in the US, second only to India in number. This produces a disproportionately large population of Filipino physicians to patients. This is excellent for Filipino patients, not so helpful for applicants.

 

[gyngyn]

Hi gyngyn, is this to say that members of these group are viewed in the same light in terms of acceptance chances as the traditional URM (hispanics, blacks, etc.?)

In addition, how do you know if a school considers certain ethnicities such as hmong, cambodian, etc. as UIM?

The "boost" is quite variable. You can look at their website for clues.
Look at their demographics in the MSAR for corroboration.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Some medical schools adopt the policies of their undergrad admissions, though.

Why is this the case? Is it because they don't get enough URM (ie Mexican, African-American, etc) applicants?

 

[gyngyn]

Why is this the case? Is it because they don't get enough URM (ie Mexican, African-American, etc) applicants?

The pool of Mexican and African American applicants is tiny compared to need.

UIM designation is a policy decision made at individual schools and is unrelated to the small pool of other UIM's, though. If a particular community has evidence of worse heath outcomes potentially related to a lack of physicians, the school will recognize this in recruitment efforts. This accounts for the (somewhat modest) degree of variability in the UIM designation between institutions..

 

[Sanguis]

The answer to this whole thread is given by mimelin

A few issues...
#2 There are a lot of Hispanics that identify by their national origin. For some that identification is quite strong.

Exceedingly true.
The easiest way to understand this is by watching a soccer (futbol/futebol/Fußball for the cultivated) match between rival countries. They can go as far as killing each other. It has happened.

#3 Just because you don't see differences between different Hispanics, doesn't mean that others don't. From my limited interactions with the Peruvian and Cuban communities here and where I grew up, I think that you are in for a surprise.

Spot on.
To understand this: hispanics born in the US are not the same as a "hispanics" born outside the US, which consider the term hispanic disrespectful and prefer "Latin-American." Bones and headlights have been broken because of this little difference.