Why are people so tentative about the 2015 MCAT?

[dsoz]

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It's almost guaranteed that schools will require biochemistry, psychology, and sociology by 2015.

True.

OHSU already requires a biochem class before matriculation. It looks like they are easing in the new requirements slowly.

Further, have you seen the new requirements for U Arizona, Phoenix? They include all the new classes. They stated that as long as things were going to change, they may as well be on the leading edge of those changes. I predict that most med schools will require biochem, genetics, and social science classes in the next couple of years.

The game is changing, it is those that are starting in a couple of years that will need to learn to play by the new rules.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

good thing you're taking the easy out and going DO huh? must be a relief.

Well admittedly I don't want to retake my mcat, I am. And I hang out on the DO forum mostly because the conversations and DO med students are pretty interesting.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

not arguing over the internet, but I think you are a little sensitive ol chap. MD adcoms (read LizzyM's posts) have noted many times that CC classes are looked upon unfavorably. DO tends to be a bit more lenient and draws a much more diverse class.

i don't think anyone will disagree with me here. have people gotten in that have graduated from CC? sure. but that number is a miniority and its definitely an uphill battle.

I think you need to relax. Plenty of people grad from CC's and go to Med school, the population is small mostly because most CC students aren't premed to begin with.

 

[occams_razor]

True.

OHSU already requires a biochem class before matriculation. It looks like they are easing in the new requirements slowly.

Further, have you seen the new requirements for U Arizona, Phoenix? They include all the new classes. They stated that as long as things were going to change, they may as well be on the leading edge of those changes. I predict that most med schools will require biochem, genetics, and social science classes in the next couple of years.

The game is changing, it is those that are starting in a couple of years that will need to learn to play by the new rules.

yep, each year there seems to be more med schools that will take 1 semester of orgo and 1 semester of biochem (instead of the traditional 2 semesters of orgo), with more schools starting to list biochem as a pre-req in general.

 

[darklabel]

The average MCAT score is increasing across the board, and the number of applicants per US MD seat available is also increasing (i.e the # of applications is increasing at a greater rate than # of seats available).

Thus, to preserve the meaningfulness of the MCAT, it HAS to get harder, and given that adcoms are typically looking for more well-rounded applicants these days, the MCAT (in my opinion) will also be adjusted to have greater scope.

Thoughts?

I highly doubt that MCAT is easier to each new batch of people. I was looking at the AAMC data to see what you meant:
https://www.aamc.org/download/161690/data/table17.pdf

It doesn't look like it is increasing by a significant margin. This data is just the average for applicants, not necessarily all those who take the test and I couldn't find what the average is for all test takers. The MCAT is scaled which means AAMC wouldn't allow mean scores to increase in such a way that a 30 is the new 20. More people may be getting more questions right, but if everyone does really well then the average gets scaled back to what the AAMC would like it to be. They even state this is why it takes over a month for scores to be released. Not everyone can be in the 99th percentile.

The rise in MCAT is because there is a rise in the number of applicants and a stagnent number of seats (which is how it should be) and thus the standards have risen. People need to bring their "A" game and thus are applying smartly. If you have a 26 MCAT, chances are you're smart enough to either retake it or not apply this year since if you do, it will be a waste of money that most people don't have these days. Remember that 10 years ago, the average MCAT was quite lower.

The MCAT is never going to lose relevancy and in fact, you can argue that it is much more relevant today than ever before thanks to the large number of good applicants. It is the one, controllable indicator that Adcoms have since it puts everyone on equal footing.

While I hate the new MCAT, I really don't care since that is a while from now and I don't have to take it. New applicants have enough time to go over what will be in the new MCAT and take the relevant classes for it.

 

[Euxox]

I'm sure they will because the classes work. That's kind of my point. I think many people are coached to good scores because they have the resources. Personally, I'd rather have an uncoached, natural 30-32 than someone that went crazy with prep work and got a 35-36. I think doctors should be good problem solvers with natural abilities. I say this because I've been an engineer for a long time and went back to school to enter medicine and met way too many 3.9 or 4.0 students who got coached to a good MCAT score but have terrible problem solving skills and probably couldn't have pulled a 3.3 in engineering. Really, I'm just interested in the results when people are on a semi-level playing field because I think "coached" scores have gotten out of hand.

The MCAT is a knowledge based test, not an aptitude test like the SAT. The AAMC assumes that people have studied for the test. They even give book money to people who qualify for fee assistance. If someone gets prep books and self studies from those, do they have an "unnatural advantage"? What if they just use their textbooks from old courses? What if they are a physics or chem major and end up doing better on PS? I think this whole coached vs uncoached argument is besides the point. The MCAT is a test that is designed to be studied for and I don't think that Kaplan classes are any different than self-study with good prep books. (Except in terms of cost.)

And I think this is a good thing. Medicine only requires very basic problem solving skills, but medical school requires a great capacity to learn lots of new material quickly, and this is exactly what the MCAT looks for.

 

[circulus vitios]

The MCAT is a knowledge based test, not an aptitude test like the SAT. The AAMC assumes that people have studied for the test. They even give book money to people who qualify for fee assistance. If someone gets prep books and self studies from those, do they have an "unnatural advantage"? What if they just use their textbooks from old courses? What if they are a physics or chem major and end up doing better on PS? I think this whole coached vs uncoached argument is besides the point. The MCAT is a test that is designed to be studied for and I don't think that Kaplan classes are any different than self-study with good prep books. (Except in terms of cost.)

And I think this is a good thing. Medicine only requires very basic problem solving skills, but medical school requires a great capacity to learn lots of new material quickly, and this is exactly what the MCAT looks for.

I don't know what MCAT you're studying for, but this is the complete opposite of my experience.

 

[jr93]

The MCAT is a knowledge based test, not an aptitude test like the SAT. The AAMC assumes that people have studied for the test. They even give book money to people who qualify for fee assistance. If someone gets prep books and self studies from those, do they have an "unnatural advantage"? What if they just use their textbooks from old courses? What if they are a physics or chem major and end up doing better on PS? I think this whole coached vs uncoached argument is besides the point. The MCAT is a test that is designed to be studied for and I don't think that Kaplan classes are any different than self-study with good prep books. (Except in terms of cost.)

And I think this is a good thing. Medicine only requires very basic problem solving skills, but medical school requires a great capacity to learn lots of new material quickly, and this is exactly what the MCAT looks for.

I agree with circulus. You're taking a different test than most. I'd say that having a course teacher explain a test to you and how they like to write tests is a huge difference from self studying some Kaplan books. I think that's why retakes that don't have outstanding increases are viewed negatively by some adcoms because you have an advantage once you've seen the test once. I was asked at 4 out of my 5 interviews if I attended a Kaplan course and how I studied while working 40+ hours/week and taking prereqs. I can only assume this was so they could judge my score accordingly.

 

[Ismet]

And I think this is a good thing. Medicine only requires very basic problem solving skills, but medical school requires a great capacity to learn lots of new material quickly, and this is exactly what the MCAT looks for.

Two very false statements. Holy wow.

I agree with circulus. You're taking a different test than most. I'd say that having a course teacher explain a test to you and how they like to write tests is a huge difference from self studying some Kaplan books. I think that's why retakes that don't have outstanding increases are viewed negatively by some adcoms because you have an advantage once you've seen the test once. I was asked at 4 out of my 5 interviews if I attended a Kaplan course and how I studied while working 40+ hours/week and taking prereqs. I can only assume this was so they could judge my score accordingly.

You're overemphasizing the power of a Kaplan course a little. I did take one, only because I got it for half off and because I am the worst procrastinator ever and I needed the structure of the course. I thought that my Kaplan instructor was rather worthless and I just used the books they provided, which I realized was just the big Kaplan book you can buy in a store broken down into subjects. There are Qbanks and like 12 extra CBT practice tests you can take, plus it includes all of the AAMC practice tests, so I'll give you that it's an advantage in that sense, but don't think that the instructors coach people and give them little secrets about the exam. My instructor had just taken the MCAT 6 months before and got a 35, yet he couldn't answer any questions we had that were not answered in his little proctoring booklet.

 

[Viduus]

I just have a general question. People have been saying average MCAT scores have been increasing over time. How is this possible if the entire test is graded on a curve/percentile?

Is it something like that there are more people getting low scores so the average admitted student is higher in comparison?

 

[Ismet]

I just have a general question. People have been saying average MCAT scores have been increasing over time. How is this possible if the entire test is graded on a curve/percentile?

Is it something like that there are more people getting low scores so the average admitted student is higher in comparison?

It's not graded on a curve. The scale is set before you even sit down to take your exam. The person sitting next to you has no bearing whatsoever on your score.

 

[Euxox]

You guys may disagree, but in my opinion Intro Physics, Bio, and Chem are not difficult courses. Organic Chem can be difficult, but the MCAT doesn't test it in depth. What is difficult (or at least what was difficult for me) is cramming all of these things into your head at the same time. I took these courses over the span of four years (Bio, Phys, and Chem I took as AP in high school, Orgo I took as a college sophomore) so I never needed to know all of the major topics and problem types of, say, Chem at the same time as Physics, but when studying for the MCAT, I had to make sure that I had mastered both. It's a lot of information to have in your head at once.

When it came time to take the MCAT, I didn't feel like I was thrown for a loop doing crazy logic puzzles. I was just solving the same type of problems that I had done in high school. And I aced the test. (99th percentile.) All it takes a knowledge of the material and a bit of intuition (which comes from practice, not some sort of innate intelligence).

VR is something else entirely, but even most people who score in the 35 - 40 range haven't fully mastered VR (and this includes me). It's those 40+ kids that tend to have it figured out from what I've observed.

And I solidly stand by my statement that medicine doesn't require intricate problem solving. This is something I noticed in my shadowing. My first few days shadowing a doctor, I would always freak out when she prescribed something.

First patient

Doctor: I think I'll put him on some blood thinners.
Me: Blood thinner!?! How did you know, you're like Sherlock Homes!!
Doctor: ...he has a high blood pressure...

Next patient

Doctor: He has high BP, but let's not give him blood thinner.
Me: Arrggh, you're blowing my mind!! How do you figure these things out so quickly?!!
Doctor: ...He has internal bleeding...

Real world medicine is not like House, my friends.

 

[Doctor Strange]

You guys may disagree, but in my opinion Intro Physics, Bio, and Chem are not difficult courses. Organic Chem can be difficult, but the MCAT doesn't test it in depth. What is difficult (or at least what was difficult for me) is cramming all of these things into your head at the same time. I took these courses over the span of four years (Bio, Phys, and Chem I took as AP in high school, Orgo I took as a college sophomore) so I never needed to know all of the major topics and problem types of, say, Chem at the same time as Physics, but when studying for the MCAT, I had to make sure that I had mastered both. It's a lot of information to have in your head at once.

When it came time to take the MCAT, I didn't feel like I was thrown for a loop doing crazy logic puzzles. I was just solving the same type of problems that I had done in high school. And I aced the test. (99th percentile.) All it takes a knowledge of the material and a bit of intuition (which comes from practice, not some sort of innate intelligence).

VR is something else entirely, but even most people who score in the 35 - 40 range haven't fully mastered VR. It's those 40+ kids that tend to have it figured out from what I've observed.

And I solidly stand by my statement that medicine doesn't require intricate problem solving. This is something I noticed in my shadowing. My first few days shadowing a doctor, I would always freak out when she prescribed something.

First patient

Doctor: I think I'll put him on some blood thinners.
Me: Blood thinner!?! How did you know, you're like Sherlock Homes!!
Doctor: ...he has a high blood pressure...

Next patient

Doctor: He has high BP, but let's not give him blood thinner.
Me: Arrggh, you're blowing my mind!! How do you figure these things out so quickly?!!
Doctor: ...He has internal bleeding...

Real world medicine is not like House, my friends.

A doctor you shadowed really treats hypertension with a blood thinner? That's really the first thing that pops into their mind?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using SDN Mobile

 

[Euxox]

A doctor you shadowed really treats hypertension with a blood thinner? That's reslly the first thing that pops into their mind?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using SDN Mobile

This was in the ER, so it was just a temporary fix after a heart attack if I remember correctly. Beyond that, I'm probably misremembering/omitting some important information. I'm a premed, not doctor.

 

[Doctor Strange]

This was in the ER, so it was just a temporary fix after a heart attack if I remember correctly. Beyond that, I'm probably misremembering/omitting some important information. I'm a premed, not doctor.

Oh okay. Post MI blood thinners make a whole lot more sense... It's to prevent another thrombus from forming, not to fix blood pressure. I was very, very worried about this doctor you were shadowing for a second...

Sent from my Nexus 7 using SDN Mobile

 

[Ismet]

You guys may disagree, but in my opinion Intro Physics, Bio, and Chem are not difficult courses. Organic Chem can be difficult, but the MCAT doesn't test it in depth. What is difficult (or at least what was difficult for me) is cramming all of these things into your head at the same time. I took these courses over the span of four years (Bio, Phys, and Chem I took as AP in high school, Orgo I took as a college sophomore) so I never needed to know all of the major topics and problem types of, say, Chem at the same time as Physics, but when studying for the MCAT, I had to make sure that I had mastered both. It's a lot of information to have in your head at once.

When it came time to take the MCAT, I didn't feel like I was thrown for a loop doing crazy logic puzzles. I was just solving the same type of problems that I had done in high school. And I aced the test. (99th percentile.) All it takes a knowledge of the material and a bit of intuition (which comes from practice, not some sort of innate intelligence).

The MCAT tests your understanding of the pre-reqs. It does not test your ability to cram stuff into your head, because the information from the pre-reqs should already be in your head. MCAT studying is content review--refreshing your memory and covering the few topics your courses didn't cover--and practicing how to take the exam. It is not learning new material quickly because the material should not be new. Take it from someone in medical school, it's not the same.

And I solidly stand by my statement that medicine doesn't require intricate problem solving. This is something I noticed in my shadowing. My first few days shadowing a doctor, I would always freak out when she prescribed something.

First patient

Doctor: I think I'll put him on some blood thinners.
Me: Blood thinner!?! How did you know, you're like Sherlock Homes!!
Doctor: ...he has a high blood pressure...

Next patient

Doctor: He has high BP, but let's not give him blood thinner.
Me: Arrggh, you're blowing my mind!! How do you figure these things out so quickly?!!
Doctor: ...He has internal bleeding...

Real world medicine is not like House, my friends.

Yes, thank you for telling me what "real world medicine" is. 🙄 I'm not sure what is considered "basic" problem solving and "intricate" problem solving, but from what I have experienced so far in my short time as a medical student is not always so cut and dry like you describe. Yes there will be situations where you barely have to think about what to do. However, what if the labs come back 2 hours later and suggest something completely different? What if the patient comes in unconscious and no one knows what happened or what could be in his system? Can I trust the results of X test/how likely is it that the result is a false negative? What do you include in your ddx and how do you narrow down your options? Surgical decisions? Just a few things which I would personally consider more than "basic" problem solving.

 

[Euxox]

I'm not saying that doctors don't have to deal with some tricky problems, I'm saying that this isn't quantum mechanics level stuff. You don't need 120+ IQ to be a good doctor. You just need work ethic. A willingness to memorize, to practice, and to learn. And this is what the MCAT is testing: Not how much you studied (of course this isn't like a med school exam, although I still think memorization is a big component of MCAT prep), but how much you learned from the first couple of years of college -- whether you did the bare minimum you needed to get an A in "Physics for English Majors" or whether you actually took the initiative and put in the effort to learn the material and learn it well. It's certainly not testing some innate reasoning ability.

So I guess my original statement was phrased a bit awkwardly. Let me rephrase: The MCAT is used to gauge your ability to learn new material quickly, but you do not have to learn new material quickly to do well on the MCAT. You have to have mastered your basic sciences, which takes the kind of dedication you need to learn lots of new material quickly.

 

[Ismet]

I'm not saying that doctors don't have to deal with some tricky problems, I'm saying that this isn't quantum mechanics level stuff. You don't need 120+ IQ to be a good doctor. You just need work ethic. A willingness to memorize, to practice, and to learn. And this is what the MCAT is testing: Not how much you studied (of course this isn't like a med school exam, although I still think memorization is a big component of MCAT prep), but how much you learned from the first couple of years of college -- whether you did the bare minimum you needed to get an A in "Physics for English Majors" or whether you actually took the initiative and put in the effort to learn the material and learn it well. It's certainly not testing some innate reasoning ability.

So I guess my original statement was phrased a bit awkwardly. Let me rephrase: The MCAT is used to gauge your ability to learn new material quickly, but you do not have to learn new material quickly to do well on the MCAT. You have to have mastered your basic sciences, which takes the kind of dedication you need to learn lots of new material quickly.

No, I still disagree, but we can agree to disagree. You'll find out soon enough.

EDIT to add: No, it may not be "quantum mechanics level stuff," but in some aspects, it's even harder. Someone's life is in your hands and if you don't solve the problem correctly, you can kill them. Something you don't have to take into account when you're considering the wave-particle duality of light.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

First patient

Doctor: I think I'll put him on some blood thinners.
Me: Blood thinner!?! How did you know, you're like Sherlock Homes!!
Doctor: ...he has a high blood pressure...

Next patient

Doctor: He has high BP, but let's not give him blood thinner.
Me: Arrggh, you're blowing my mind!! How do you figure these things out so quickly?!!
Doctor: ...He has internal bleeding...

Real world medicine is not like House, my friends.

lol

First of all did you mean to say anti-hypertensives? Cause we don't (and I doubt he did) reach for "blood thinner" (anticoagulants) in patients with hypertension...in fact they're usually contraindicated unless you've had an MI before because they'll increase the risk of intraparenchymal cerebral hemorrhage. Even if he was going to put him on anti-coagulants, hypertension isn't a "reason" for that.

Good use of technical terms there too doc. You know what kind of antihypertensive he was gonna put him on? Calcium channel blocker? ACE inhibitor? AngII inhibitor? A diuretic? What kind? Spironolactone? Hydrochlorothiazide? Furosemide? Dosage? Co-morbidities to take into consideration? Want to put him on an ACE inhibitor but then his creatinine comes back at 2x normal? Uh oh not lookin good, looks like an ACE inhibitor was the wrong option because your patient is actually in renal failure and you just made it worse.

I'm also sure those were the complete treatment plans for those two patients. Yes, he has internal bleeding so let's not give him an anticoagulant. Sounds like a plan to me.

Yes sir I can see that you really have medicine down from these complex and in depth analyses you presented.

Edit: Saw your post above about the MI (so then that actually makes sense although the reasoning still doesn't) but if you're gonna use these as an argument of what "real world medicine is like" then we should probably take your examples at their word...unless you're going to admit you don't know what you're talking about. Also, the list of anticoagulants is just as long as the list of anti-hypertensives so I'll just leave that whole thing up there.

 

[Doctor Strange]

lol

First of all did you mean to say anti-hypertensives? Cause we don't (and I doubt he did) reach for "blood thinner" (anticoagulants) in patients with hypertension...in fact they're usually contraindicated unless you've had an MI before because they'll increase the risk of intraparenchymal cerebral hemorrhage. Even if he was going to put him on anti-coagulants, hypertension isn't a "reason" for that.

Good use of technical terms there too doc. You know what kind of antihypertensive he was gonna put him on? Calcium channel blocker? ACE inhibitor? AngII inhibitor? A diuretic? What kind? Spironolactone? Hydrochlorothiazide? Furosemide? Dosage? Co-morbidities to take into consideration? Want to put him on an ACE inhibitor but then his creatinine comes back at 2x normal? Uh oh not lookin good, looks like an ACE inhibitor was the wrong option because your patient is actually in renal failure and you just made it worse.

I'm also sure those were the complete treatment plans for those two patients. Yes, he has internal bleeding so let's not give him an anticoagulant. Sounds like a plan to me.

Yes sir I can see that you really have medicine down from these complex and in depth analyses you presented.

Edit: Saw your post above about the MI (so then that actually makes sense although the reasoning still doesn't) but if you're gonna use these as an argument of what "real world medicine is like" then we should probably take your examples at their word...unless you're going to admit you don't know what you're talking about. Also, the list of anticoagulants is just as long as the list of anti-hypertensives so I'll just leave that whole thing up there.

Is the second paragraph directed at me? Not trying to be a know it all... I have a background in pharmacology, so I just thought what the other post said was weird... Basically what your first paragraph said...

Sent from my Nexus 7 using SDN Mobile

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Is the second paragraph directed at me? Not trying to be a know it all... I have a background in pharmacology, so I just thought what the other post said was weird... Basically what your first paragraph said...

Sent from my Nexus 7 using SDN Mobile

Nah not you the first guy. You knew what was going on.

 

[Doctor Strange]

Nah not you the first guy. You knew what was going on.

Merp. Awkward. I got a little flustered there. I know my drugs... Not the illicit kind, though... ;-)

Sent from my Nexus 7 using SDN Mobile

 

[HuskerMed1816]

People who take the 2013 MCAT have the option to volunteer to take a "trial section" at the end of the exam, which can include biochem, psych, and sociology questions. That's what is meant by experimental, not an "experimental" style of question.



The trial section is different from the experimental discretes and passages that have always been included in the exam.

Funny to add that this section is optional and goes unreported. The "incentive" to complete it is a $50 gift card.. oh, and by the way, the MCAT costs $50 more this year.

 

[argama]

I wonder if the AAMC will release a few "practice tests" for the 2015 MCAT? Like how we have AAMC 3-11 (minus 6). B/c then wouldn't it be sorta unfair to walk in completely cold? >_____>

 

[Ismet]

Funny to add that this section is optional and goes unreported. The "incentive" to complete it is a $50 gift card.. oh, and by the way, the MCAT costs $50 more this year.

Experimental questions are never included in scores, so it's not surprising that the section is not reported to schools. They're new questions, they're for statistical purposes.

I wonder if the AAMC will release a few "practice tests" for the 2015 MCAT? Like how we have AAMC 3-11 (minus 6). B/c then wouldn't it be sorta unfair to walk in completely cold? >_____>

Yes, I believe they are releasing 2 practice tests in the new style.

 

[circulus vitios]

Funny to add that this section is optional and goes unreported. The "incentive" to complete it is a $50 gift card.. oh, and by the way, the MCAT costs $50 more this year.

Do what I'm going to do and guess on every question of the experimental section. 🙂

 

[jr93]

I'm not saying that doctors don't have to deal with some tricky problems, I'm saying that this isn't quantum mechanics level stuff. You don't need 120+ IQ to be a good doctor. You just need work ethic. A willingness to memorize, to practice, and to learn. And this is what the MCAT is testing: Not how much you studied (of course this isn't like a med school exam, although I still think memorization is a big component of MCAT prep), but how much you learned from the first couple of years of college -- whether you did the bare minimum you needed to get an A in "Physics for English Majors" or whether you actually took the initiative and put in the effort to learn the material and learn it well. It's certainly not testing some innate reasoning ability.

So I guess my original statement was phrased a bit awkwardly. Let me rephrase: The MCAT is used to gauge your ability to learn new material quickly, but you do not have to learn new material quickly to do well on the MCAT. You have to have mastered your basic sciences, which takes the kind of dedication you need to learn lots of new material quickly.

I'd prefer if my doctor had a high IQ over someone that just crammed and sucked up to teachers to get a 4.0. An IQ of 120 isn't terribly high anyway. A LOT of people have IQ's over 120. Have you taken quantum mechanics? I've taken way too many upper level science courses and you shouldn't just throw their difficulty around like you know it if you aren't really aware of how it goes.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I'd prefer if my doctor had a high IQ over someone that just crammed and sucked up to teachers to get a 4.0. An IQ of 120 isn't terribly high anyway. A LOT of people have IQ's over 120. Have you taken quantum mechanics? I've taken way too many upper level science courses and you shouldn't just throw their difficulty around like you know it if you aren't really aware of how it goes.

The mcat isn't an IQ test and likely the relationship between those two are probably week. This not to mention that internal validity is always an issue here, both aren't very valid measures.

And I think only like 5% -10% have an 120+. But again IQ tests are rarely definitive of anything really.

 

[KnuxNole]

You guys may disagree, but in my opinion Intro Physics, Bio, and Chem are not difficult courses. Organic Chem can be difficult, but the MCAT doesn't test it in depth. What is difficult (or at least what was difficult for me) is cramming all of these things into your head at the same time. I took these courses over the span of four years (Bio, Phys, and Chem I took as AP in high school, Orgo I took as a college sophomore) so I never needed to know all of the major topics and problem types of, say, Chem at the same time as Physics, but when studying for the MCAT, I had to make sure that I had mastered both. It's a lot of information to have in your head at once.

When it came time to take the MCAT, I didn't feel like I was thrown for a loop doing crazy logic puzzles. I was just solving the same type of problems that I had done in high school. And I aced the test. (99th percentile.) All it takes a knowledge of the material and a bit of intuition (which comes from practice, not some sort of innate intelligence).

VR is something else entirely, but even most people who score in the 35 - 40 range haven't fully mastered VR (and this includes me). It's those 40+ kids that tend to have it figured out from what I've observed.

And I solidly stand by my statement that medicine doesn't require intricate problem solving. This is something I noticed in my shadowing. My first few days shadowing a doctor, I would always freak out when she prescribed something.

First patient

Doctor: I think I'll put him on some blood thinners.
Me: Blood thinner!?! How did you know, you're like Sherlock Homes!!
Doctor: ...he has a high blood pressure...

Next patient

Doctor: He has high BP, but let's not give him blood thinner.
Me: Arrggh, you're blowing my mind!! How do you figure these things out so quickly?!!
Doctor: ...He has internal bleeding...

Real world medicine is not like House, my friends.

Lol I hope you didn't say those sentences out loud. That would make the docs laugh at you when you are gone...

 

[Euxox]

Good use of technical terms there too doc. You know what kind of antihypertensive he was gonna put him on? Calcium channel blocker? ACE inhibitor? AngII inhibitor? A diuretic? What kind? Spironolactone? Hydrochlorothiazide? Furosemide? Dosage? Co-morbidities to take into consideration? Want to put him on an ACE inhibitor but then his creatinine comes back at 2x normal? Uh oh not lookin good, looks like an ACE inhibitor was the wrong option because your patient is actually in renal failure and you just made it worse.

My story was a bit of hyperbole obviously. Yes, I was oversimplifying the story, yes I don't understand all of the medical considerations that go into making these kind of decisions, but if what you are saying is true, then IMO, it supports my argument. There are a lot of variables to consider in prescribing a medicine or making a diagnosis, but it is still simple if-then logic: If patient has hypertension and patient does not have symptoms of renal failure, then prescribe ACE inhibitor. You can add forty more variables to the equation, and it still doesn't change the fact that it is if-then logic. It's not something like writing a proof where things like creativity and spatial reasoning (a favorite topic on IQ tests) come into play. Einstein had great spatial reasoning. His relativity papers originated from his famous spatial "thought experiments." That kind of thinking is not something that can be taught in schools, unlike medicine.

Again, I'm not saying that being a doctor is easy or that an idiot can do it, I'm saying that it doesn't require some kind of innate super-intelligence.

I'd prefer if my doctor had a high IQ over someone that just crammed and sucked up to teachers to get a 4.0.

I don't think cramming and sucking up qualifies as mastering the basic sciences, and people who get good science grades that way will be screened out by the MCAT. On the flip side, would you want a doctor with a 200 IQ who just barely passed all of his exams in med school because he couldn't be bothered to put in more effort?

Lol I hope you didn't say those sentences out loud. That would make the docs laugh at you when you are gone...

Of course I didn't say those things. That story was supposed to be an obvious bit of hyperbole.

EDIT to add: No, it may not be "quantum mechanics level stuff," but in some aspects, it's even harder. Someone's life is in your hands and if you don't solve the problem correctly, you can kill them. Something you don't have to take into account when you're considering the wave-particle duality of light.

I'll grant you that. I guess it can be harder to make good decisions when the pressure is on.

By the way, this guy agrees with me completely and he is an MD: http://www.medaholic.com/how-smart-are-medical-doctors/

 

[jr93]

I don't think cramming and sucking up qualifies as mastering the basic sciences, and people who get good science grades that way will be screened out by the MCAT. On the flip side, would you want a doctor with a 200 IQ who just barely passed all of his exams in med school because he couldn't be bothered to put in more effort?

By the way, this guy agrees with me completely and he is an MD: http://www.medaholic.com/how-smart-are-medical-doctors/

A 4.0 or a high MCAT doesn't qualify as mastering the basic sciences either. My point is, I'd rather have a FM or IM doctor with a higher than normal IQ and photographic memory because he's likely able to problem solve and recall better. I think many of you are misinterpreting my argument anyway which revolves around coached scores versus uncoached scores. Obviously, anyone over a 28-30 on the MCAT is pretty smart compared to the world. I've been an engineer for many years and most of the REALLY good engineers that I've known along the way had GPA's under 3.2. It doesn't mean you can't be bothered to try hard because you don't score a certain way but it certainly helps to have insight into what might be on the test or what question-makers think about when generating a passage.

 

[TexasSurgeon]

I keep seeing people posting about how they want to fit in a billion courses in the course of a couple of semesters to avoid the 2015 MCAT. Now I know that it's going to have a psychology component as well as some Biochem. It also apparently has a new format.

Why are so many of these people trying to avoid it, hell or high water? Is it due to not having to invest time into taking Biochem/learning Biochem if one can take the 2014 MCAT?

I ask because I'll definitely be stuck taking the new, 2015 style MCAT given the fact that I couldn't make it into ANY science courses two semesters in a row (extreme impacting).

I apologize for the ignorance.

Because SN2's study schedule will be useless when 2015 comes about.