Why are so many premeds applying now of all times?

[psyspy]

M4 here. Not gonna belabor this but it's an open secret the job market for industry careers in the US is better than ever seen in history. That said, last year the greatest delta of increased applicants was also seen by far:

https://www.aamc.org/media/9576/download

Now its become a meme-worthy acceptance rate to at least one school of 37.9% (ie likely half of that percent don't have any sort of option-weighing opportunity of any kind). Can anyone speculate why this is happening? Do you all think this will continue this cycle?

Honestly I think something needs to be done to standardize the admission process a bit more. Selectivity is fine but the kind of things you have to do now seem pretty overboard

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[SooConfused]

M4 here. Not gonna belabor this but it's an open secret the job market for industry careers in the US is better than ever seen in history. That said, last year the greatest delta of increased applicants was also seen by far:

https://www.aamc.org/media/9576/download

Now its become a meme-worthy acceptance rate to at least one school of 37.9% (ie likely half of that percent don't have any sort of option-weighing opportunity of any kind). Can anyone speculate why this is happening? Do you all think this will continue this cycle?

Honestly I think something needs to be done to standardize the admission process a bit more. Selectivity is fine but the kind of things you have to do now seem pretty overboard

Why? Because medicine has been, and continues to be, perceived as a prestigious, well compensated, very stable profession. As much as people complain, schools really are doing a lot to break down systemic barriers to entry for low SES and URM applicants, which only increases the pool and will continue to make admissions more and more competitive.

As great as the job market has been, you are now starting to see layoffs on Wall Street, fintech, Silicon Valley, etc. When is the last time you heard about physician layoffs?

By the way, that huge delta you are referring to happened for the class that entered in 2021 (i.e., applied in 2020). That increase, in hindsight, was fueled by applications being pushed forward when the world shut down during the height of the pandemic. Applications actually fell back a bit last cycle, but the huge increase and subsequent decrease was a one-time event caused by an external shock to the system, and there is nothing to read into it.

TLDR -- the profession has always been perceived as very attractive, and opening it up to more people will, by definition, cause it continue to become even more competitive to enter.

 

[psyspy]

It's not overt layoffs physicians have to worry about. It's a relatively uninfluencable salary, increasing demands for the same salary every year, and fewer jobs in some specialties due to midlevels. That and it being nearly impossible to transition to a different line of work (rather than consulting to general tech to IT to consulting etc)

The layoffs have only been in specific industries. They aren't all getting laid off like crazy like 2008

 

[Mr.Smile12]

For @SooConfused : physician layoffs have been happening, but they don't make big headlines in the mainstream media. But they are happening. Many hospitals are still rather short-staffed:

10 hospitals laying off workers

Several hospitals are trimming their workforces due to financial and operational challenges, and some are offering affected workers new positions.

www.beckershospitalreview.com

Physicians working fewer hours due to furloughs and layoffs

COVID19 fallout is causing a heretofore unexperienced staffing crisis.

www.physicianspractice.com

Hospital workforce tracker: COVID-19 spurs layoffs, furloughs

Dallas-based Baylor Scott and White is outsourcing, laying off or retraining 1,700 employees in five departments. The system laid off a third of its workforce in May and a third of its corporate finance staff in December.

www.healthcaredive.com

FWIW, in spite of the headline

Docs Become Dog Groomers After COVID-19 Work Loss

Many physicians have lost their jobs or have little work during the pandemic and are resorting to a bizarre array of side gigs or outright career overhauls.

www.medscape.com

I'm not exactly in agreement that industry careers are really doing better. Certainly post-COVID-19 hiring may be helping but I'm under the impression that a lot of jobs across sectors for higher-skilled positions are still vacant.

@PsyPsy I don't know what "standardizing the admissions process" means without going into collusion, which is illegal. Could you explain?

 

[psyspy]

Having a cap for amount that research and ECs help. Base it more on GPA, MCAT, rigor/selectivity of undergrad, challenging interview situations, and supervised essay writing during interview day. Research, unless its done in a post-bac, PhD, etc should not really have any leeway because undergrads have minimal influence on the progression of the project they're on, and getting a poster at a pan-acceptance undergrad conference can be done by anyone. That and prize gap years a bit less. Training time is very long and older students are in fact quite limited in the specialties they can pick later

 

[psyspy]

For @SooConfused : physician layoffs have been happening, but they don't make big headlines in the mainstream media. But they are happening. Many hospitals are still rather short-staffed:

10 hospitals laying off workers

Several hospitals are trimming their workforces due to financial and operational challenges, and some are offering affected workers new positions.

www.beckershospitalreview.com

Physicians working fewer hours due to furloughs and layoffs

COVID19 fallout is causing a heretofore unexperienced staffing crisis.

www.physicianspractice.com

Hospital workforce tracker: COVID-19 spurs layoffs, furloughs

Dallas-based Baylor Scott and White is outsourcing, laying off or retraining 1,700 employees in five departments. The system laid off a third of its workforce in May and a third of its corporate finance staff in December.

www.healthcaredive.com

FWIW, in spite of the headline

Docs Become Dog Groomers After COVID-19 Work Loss

Many physicians have lost their jobs or have little work during the pandemic and are resorting to a bizarre array of side gigs or outright career overhauls.

www.medscape.com

I'm not exactly in agreement that industry careers are really doing better. Certainly post-COVID-19 hiring may be helping but I'm under the impression that a lot of jobs across sectors for higher-skilled positions are still vacant.

@PsyPsy I don't know what "standardizing the admissions process" means without going into collusion, which is illegal. Could you explain?

Dude, 3 of these 4 articles are 1+ year old, in the midst of the pandemic peak. Isolated layoffs happen but that's quite different from an actual recession where everyone is getting laid off

 

[Goro]

Having a cap for amount that research and ECs help. Base it more on GPA, MCAT, rigor/selectivity of undergrad, challenging interview situations, and supervised essay writing during interview day. Research, unless its done in a post-bac, PhD, etc should not really have any leeway because undergrads have minimal influence on the progression of the project they're on, and getting a poster at a pan-acceptance undergrad conference can be done by anyone. That and prize gap years a bit less. Training time is very long and older students are in fact quite limited in the specialties they can pick later

So you just want doctors to be academic clones, with little actual experience in service, which is what Medicine is.

The really Top Schools are research whor...umm... sex workers because their mission is to train the next generation of leaders in Medicine.

 

[psyspy]

So you just want doctors to be academic clones, with little actual experience in service, which is what Medicine is.

The really Top Schools are research whor...umm... sex workers because their mission is to train the next generation of leaders in Medicine.

At most 2 gap years is enough to get service, work, and clinical experience. I’d argue that 1 is even enough. Premedical clinical experience shows you some but can’t show it all.

People overplay their volunteering experiences too. Shadowing gives more knowledge about a medical career than most clinical volunteering

 

[Goro]

At most 2 gap years is enough to get service, work, and clinical experience. I’d argue that 1 is even enough. Premedical clinical experience shows you some but can’t show it all.

People overplay their volunteering experiences too. Shadowing gives more knowledge about a medical career than most clinical volunteering

Shadowing just shows people what a doctor's day is like.

Clinical exposures tell people what they're getting into. You know, like dealing with sick and injured people, some of whom ate not nice people?

Humanistic domains are required competencies that outnumber those of scientific knowledge. Hence, the requirements for nonclinical volunteering and service to others.

But we digress from your OP.

 

[RangerBob]

Shadowing just shows people what a doctor's day is like.

Clinical exposures tell people what they're getting into. You know, like dealing with sick and injured people, some of whom ate not nice people?

Humanistic domains are required competencies that outnumber those of scientific knowledge. Hence, the requirements for nonclinical volunteering and service to others.

But we digress from your OP.

What part of the world is your med school located where your students/physicians are taking care of sick & injured cannibals?

 

[mike-sheree]

M4 here. Not gonna belabor this but it's an open secret the job market for industry careers in the US is better than ever seen in history. That said, last year the greatest delta of increased applicants was also seen by far:

https://www.aamc.org/media/9576/download

Now its become a meme-worthy acceptance rate to at least one school of 37.9% (ie likely half of that percent don't have any sort of option-weighing opportunity of any kind). Can anyone speculate why this is happening? Do you all think this will continue this cycle?

Honestly I think something needs to be done to standardize the admission process a bit more. Selectivity is fine but the kind of things you have to do now seem pretty overboard

I agree with you 100% that the application system has gone overboard. In my ideal world it would be GPA, MCAT and some in-depth interviewing by “expert” interviewers to evaluate character, interest, etc. I envision this as an extensive process with psych, students, clinical doc, non clinical doc, etc. You could even throw in a cocktail party ( and get good personality insight). Today, social politics have enormously complicated the process.
Pretty soon, the Mother Teresas of the country will need 3.8+’s and 518+’s to get looked at.

Not all fine physicians are altruistic saints who love being around patients. Yet, the way we choose our students pushes those folks to the front ( after all the other hoops y’all must jump thru). We do need people who are happy “shaking test tubes” or looking at brain MRI’s or GI biopsies all day.

 

[mike-sheree]

Dude, 3 of these 4 articles are 1+ year old, in the midst of the pandemic peak. Isolated layoffs happen but that's quite different from an actual recession where everyone is getting laid off

It is not uncommon for entire groups (rads, gas, path, ER) to be let go with little or no notice when the big corporate entities come calling.

 

[psyspy]

I agree with you 100% that the application system has gone overboard. In my ideal world it would be GPA, MCAT and some in-depth interviewing by “expert” interviewers to evaluate character, interest, etc. Today, social politics have enormously complicated the process.
Pretty soon, the Mother Teresas of the country will need 3.8+’s and 518+’s to get looked at.

Not all fine physicians are altruistic saints who love being around patients. Yet, the way we choose our students pushes those folks to the front ( after all the other hoops y’all must jump thru). We do need people who are happy “shaking test tubes” or looking at brain MRI’s or GI biopsies all day.

At the end of the day though it’s a sellers’ market. The 60k+ applicants from last cycle were willing to try and jump through these innumerable hoops. Sometimes we forget it’s not about what’s “right”, but about what the collective (ie not the individual) is willing to do

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Dude, 3 of these 4 articles are 1+ year old, in the midst of the pandemic peak. Isolated layoffs happen but that's quite different from an actual recession where everyone is getting laid off

True point, but many times I have been to a hospital over the current year, and they haven't really hired a lot of people back. A fair number of retirements gets to be frustrating. Many social services can't find nurses to hire for less than what they could get in the service industry.

 

[Med Ed]

Honestly I think something needs to be done to standardize the admission process a bit more.

Did you serve on your school's admissions committee?

 

[Goro]

What part of the world is your med school located where your students/physicians are taking care of sick & injured cannibals?

Washington DC, of course!

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I think pre meds watch too much TV, and think medicine is what is described on medical TV shows. Secondly, most think they can all match Integrative Plastics or Neurosurgery. Yet, they have never competed with the caliber of student they will encounter in med school. They will meet the scary smart folks who WILL match Plastics and Neurosurg in med school. How many papers published or gap years taken won't help them get past those people.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

I think pre meds watch too much TV, and think medicine is what is described on medical TV shows. Secondly, most think they can all match Integrative Plastics or Neurosurgery. Yet, they have never competed with the caliber of student they will encounter in med school. They will meet the scary smart folks who WILL match Plastics and Neurosurg in med school. How many papers published or gap years taken won't help them get past those people.

I don't think you need to be smart to match any of those specialties. You just have to work really hard. I don't know what you mean by "scary smart." Like scoring 270's on the steps? Basically, you just have to have average intelligence to be a doctor. Scary smart people don't go into medicine normally. When I say scary smart, I mean people who can understand quantum physics or the like as if they had already known these things or someone who can write an amazing novel at the age of 12. Medicine on the other hand is not like that at all. You basically just have to memorize as much as you can. High capacity of memory is not the same as being smart. Plus, all those surgical subspecialties are about repetition. You literally don't need to be that smart to open someone's brain to operate on or augment someone's breast. Lol. So the point I am trying to get across is that you just have to really want something and work really hard to get it in medicine. Intelligence almost has no correlation at all.

 

[Med Ed]

Basically, you just have to have average intelligence to be a doctor.

You should get out more.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

You should get out more.

meaning what?

 

[Med Ed]

meaning what?

Meaning your concept of average intelligence may be in need of calibration.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I don't think you need to be smart to match any of those specialties. You just have to work really hard. I don't know what you mean by "scary smart." Like scoring 270's on the steps? Basically, you just have to have average intelligence to be a doctor. Scary smart people don't go into medicine normally. When I say scary smart, I mean people who can understand quantum physics or the like as if they had already known these things or someone who can write an amazing novel at the age of 12. Medicine on the other hand is not like that at all. You basically just have to memorize as much as you can. High capacity of memory is not the same as being smart.

Scary smart people are people who can absorb and apply massive amounts of information with little effort. So maybe Academically superior would be a better descriptor? But, yes, there are scary smart people that you describe in med school too. They breeze through and excel in other areas that interest them. A classmate of my wife went to med school to become a medical Illustrator. His only reason for going. I used to work with a neurosurgeon who got the highest score in the country on his written board exam. You have to be competitive to match in a competitive residency. You don't graduate in the top 10% of your med school class and get nearly 260 on step 2, which is just about 90%tile amongst a very large group of very smart people, and match plastics unless you are academically superior. Avg Step 2 was 257 for plastics. Memorization doesn't get you that far. There are just under 200 Plastic residency slots, which also makes it highly selective. So, I'll just disagree with you that you don't have to be that smart to match Plastics or Neurosurg, and agree that hard work can improve your shot at matching competitive programs.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Scary smart people are people who can absorb and apply massive amounts of information with little effort. So maybe Academically superior would be a better descriptor? But, yes, there are scary smart people that you describe in med school too. They breeze through and excel in other areas that interest them. A classmate of my wife went to med school to become a medical Illustrator. His only reason for going. I used to work with a neurosurgeon who got the highest score in the country on his written board exam. You have to be competitive to match in a competitive residency. You don't graduate in the top 10% of your med school class and get nearly 260 on step 2, which is just about 90%tile amongst a very large group of very smart people, and match plastics unless you are academically superior. Avg Step 2 was 257 for plastics. Memorization doesn't get you that far. There are just under 200 Plastic residency slots, which also makes it highly selective. So, I'll just disagree with you that you don't have to be that smart to match Plastics or Neurosurg, and agree that hard work can improve your shot at matching competitive programs.

Well, from what you said, your def of smart is basically scoring high on exams. In my book, scoring 100% on MCATs and 90th on steps is considered smart, but not scary smart. For example, I scored in 100th percentile in every standardized test I’ve ever taken (sat, lsat, gmat, gre and MCAT). I am not scary smart or even close. I am just smart. I know people who are scary smart. None of them is in medicine. On the other hand, I haven’t seen anyone who’s scary smart in medicine. In other words, I think it’s mostly hard work that gets you into competitive specialties, not that you are so much smarter than others.

No one can absorb a large amount of info and apply it with little effort. You basically don’t see how hard those people work. But trust me, they work harder than everyone else. They are swans (appearing at ease on the surface, but paddling crazy underneath)

 

[SooConfused]

Well, from what you said, your def of smart is basically scoring high on exams. In my book, scoring 100% on MCATs and 90th on steps is considered smart, but not scary smart. For example, I scored in 100th percentile in every standardized test I’ve ever taken (sat, lsat, gmat, gre and MCAT). I am not scary smart or even close. I am just smart. I know people who are scary smart. None of them is in medicine. On the other hand, I haven’t seen anyone who’s scary smart in medicine. In other words, I think it’s mostly hard work that gets you into competitive specialties, not that you are so much smarter than others.

Or maybe, just hear me out, the perspective of someone who is able to score in the 100th percentile in any standardized test in any discipline -- law, business, medicine, etc. -- is not typical and should be recognized as such.

Maybe you are actually "scary smart" and just fail, or refuse, to recognize yourself as such. If so, that will, by definition, skew your perspective. A multimillionaire might consider himself middle class because he is not a billionaire, or has less than what he considers to be his peer group, but that doesn't make it so.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Or maybe, just hear me out, the perspective of someone who is able to score in the 100th percentile in any standardized test in any discipline -- law, business, medicine, etc. -- is not typical and should be recognized as such.

Maybe you are actually "scary smart" and just fail to recognize yourself as such. If so, that will, by definition, skew your perspective. A multimillionaire might consider himself middle class because he is not a billionaire, but that doesn't make it so.

Well, perhaps, but when I compare myself to some of those scary smart people, I feel quite below their niche talent.

 

[SooConfused]

Well, perhaps, but when I compare myself to some of those scary smart people, I feel quite below their niche talent.

Just like the millionaire!

Trust me, testing better than ~100% of everyone, on every test, is not merely kind of bright.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I think pre meds watch too much TV, and think medicine is what is described on medical TV shows. Secondly, most think they can all match Integrative Plastics or Neurosurgery. Yet, they have never competed with the caliber of student they will encounter in med school. They will meet the scary smart folks who WILL match Plastics and Neurosurg in med school. How many papers published or gap years taken won't help them get past those people.

I'll differ slightly but I don't think the current crop of students watch TV. Not the way us older folks know it. I don't know what's on that is a popular medical drama nowadays. Sorry if I hijack the thread in advance.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Well, from what you said, your def of smart is basically scoring high on exams. In my book, scoring 100% on MCATs and 90th on steps is considered smart, but not scary smart. For example, I scored in 100th percentile in every standardized test I’ve ever taken (sat, lsat, gmat, gre and MCAT). I am not scary smart or even close. I am just smart. I know people who are scary smart. None of them is in medicine. On the other hand, I haven’t seen anyone who’s scary smart in medicine. In other words, I think it’s mostly hard work that gets you into competitive specialties, not that you are so much smarter than others.

No one can absorb a large amount of info and apply it with little effort. You basically don’t see how hard those people work. But trust me, they work harder than everyone else. They are swans (appearing at ease on the surface, but paddling crazy underneath)

I think you are scary smart. Mere mortals, like the rest of us work hard to get where we are. My wife is in the category, but always gets in th 98 to 99th percentile and she doesn't consider it very hard, or herself all that smart. As I've said many times on SDN, she went to class to socialize. If I had to compete with her, it would have driven me nuts. In your case you believe you worked hard and therefore, " If I can do it, anybody can do it if they work hard enough". Which really isn't the case most of the time, imo. The vast majority of med students could not pull your stats no matter how hard or how long they studied. But it does helps me understand why you feel the way you do. All the best!

 

[Kuratz]

I agree with OPs premise. I don’t really understand why so many are applying to medicine given what other non-medical jobs can offer post-covid. It’s becoming clear that major employers across multiple sectors will allow at minimum a hybrid work-from-home situation or even completely remote. The ability to live anywhere one would like, travel and still squeeze some work days, have time during the day to do laundry, get a quick workout in etc, and not have to commute are all HUGE perks. Throw in a decent salary that has narrowed the gap between physicians and the lack of 7-10 years of delayed gratification and I just don’t see how medicine will continue to attract too notch candidates. Sure, there will always be some hellbent on medicine for whatever reason and I’m sure there will be plenty of average college students who apply, but on the whole I don’t get it. It might be the worst time in modern history to become a physician: highest debt, decreasing compensation compounded by inflation, death by paperwork, lack of autonomy/ownership and a general sense of entitlement by patients.

Now I’m fortunate to have stumbled into Radiology/IR which is still a reasonable option but I wouldn’t have recommended this path 3 years ago. In this post-covid world? Just look around at your peers. They have unparalleled job benefits now while medicine has gotten worse.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I agree with OPs premise. I don’t really understand why so many are applying to medicine given what other non-medical jobs can offer post-covid. It’s becoming clear that major employers across multiple sectors will allow at minimum a hybrid work-from-home situation or even completely remote. The ability to live anywhere one would like, travel and still squeeze some work days, have time during the day to do laundry, get a quick workout in etc, and not have to commute are all HUGE perks. Throw in a decent salary that has narrowed the gap between physicians and the lack of 7-10 years of delayed gratification and I just don’t see how medicine will continue to attract too notch candidates. Sure, there will always be some hellbent on medicine for whatever reason and I’m sure there will be plenty of average college students who apply, but on the whole I don’t get it. It might be the worst time in modern history to become a physician: highest debt, decreasing compensation compounded by inflation, death by paperwork, lack of autonomy/ownership and a general sense of entitlement by patients.

Now I’m fortunate to have stumbled into Radiology/IR which is still a reasonable option but I wouldn’t have recommended this path 3 years ago. In this post-covid world? Just look around at your peers. They have unparalleled job benefits now while medicine has gotten worse.

Agree with this^^^ . What is just beginning is the rapid culture change that can happen for employed physicians. I'm talking about layoffs with restrictive covenants. Meaning you can't work withing a certain radius of your former facility,(ies). Reimbursements are dropping. The word will vet out soon. Our best and brightest will enter fields that treat them better. Right now doctors are considered The Help by their employers.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Tech companies are dripping workers like crazy. Most of these will be new hires by default

PWC survey

50% of employers expect job cuts, survey finds. Here's how to prepare for a potential layoff

Many companies have announced layoffs in recent weeks, and executives expect more are coming. There are steps workers can take ahead of time.

www.cnbc.com

 

[TrigeminalNeuralgia]

Training time is very long and older students are in fact quite limited in the specialties they can pick later

Is this so? Can you elaborate?

Humanistic domains are required competencies that outnumber those of scientific knowledge. Hence, the requirements for nonclinical volunteering and service to others.

It's very much up for debate whether medical schools can effectively evaluate humanistic traits. Activities showing service orientation cannot distinguish the intrinsically motivated humanitarian from the careerist whose mom made him do them because they're required. Is the guy who gave away free food for 600 hours more humanistic than the guy who did it for 450 hours?

Even if we grant that we want to select for humanistic traits above academic performance beyond a certain threshold, it might so hard in practice that it becomes a detriment to the process of finding the best future docs if emphasized too much.

 

[SooConfused]

Agree with this^^^ . What is just beginning is the rapid culture change that can happen for employed physicians. I'm talking about layoffs with restrictive covenants. Meaning you can't work withing a certain radius of your former facility,(ies). Reimbursements are dropping. The word will vet out soon. Our best and brightest will enter fields that treat them better. Right now doctors are considered The Help by their employers.

I would LOVE to see how this works in the real world -- they fire you AND don't let you work anywhere else.

I get restrictive covenants to reduce your incentive to leave if an employer wants you to stay, but I cannot believe anyone in the real world would lay someone off, because they either don't want or need their services, and, at the same time, would seek to keep them from earning a living elsewhere.

I'd love to meet the judge or arbitrator who would enforce such an obnoxious provision. If an employer in the middle of layoffs is really worried about competition from laid off employees, I'd think a monster severance package would have to accompany such a restriction, with an ability to opt out if the doctor wants to work in the area.

 

[psyspy]

Tech companies are dripping workers like crazy. Most of these will be new hires by default

PWC survey

50% of employers expect job cuts, survey finds. Here's how to prepare for a potential layoff

Many companies have announced layoffs in recent weeks, and executives expect more are coming. There are steps workers can take ahead of time.

www.cnbc.com

Even then, much of the paradigm shift in industry is here to stay. Like the poster above said, employers across multiple sectors will allow at minimum a hybrid work-from-home situation or even completely remote. Also the mainstream media has been editorializing recession risk ever since march this year

 

[toeknife]

When I was in college, my E&M professor would teach class with no notes, no plans, no calculator--just a piece of chalk. He would make up all the notes he wrote on the spot, all the example problems on the spot, and solve them on the spot. The class tested him out of disbelief one day, and sure enough he could do the same thing when we were the ones providing the questions and numbers. Not just simple circuit problems in the beginning either--the whole way through. Massive calculations all in his head in seconds. Think of what some of the more complicated E&M problems can look like.

That's scary smart. Studying and doing well on tests? Eh...

 

[Fano]

For @SooConfused : physician layoffs have been happening, but they don't make big headlines in the mainstream media. But they are happening. Many hospitals are still rather short-staffed

To add, the consolidation of health systems and the near extinction of private practices is not a good sign for any industry.

 

[Fano]

Right now doctors are considered The Help by their employers.

What I find interesting are the health systems that are actually managed by doctors or, at least, where they hold many executive positions. I haven't researched this, so I maybe mistaken in assuming that this is the norm. I may also be mistaken that they are more physician-centric but their hands are tied due to all the regulatory demands and financial pressure forced upon them.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

When I was in college, my E&M professor would teach class with no notes, no plans, no calculator--just a piece of chalk. He would make up all the notes he wrote on the spot, all the example problems on the spot, and solve them on the spot. The class tested him out of disbelief one day, and sure enough he could do the same thing when we were the ones providing the questions and numbers. Not just simple circuit problems in the beginning either--the whole way through. Massive calculations all in his head in seconds. Think of what some of the more complicated E&M problems can look like.

That's scary smart. Studying and doing well on tests? Eh...

Yes. Those who can do Fourier transformation in their head are scary smart…

 

[psyspy]

I agree with OPs premise. I don’t really understand why so many are applying to medicine given what other non-medical jobs can offer post-covid. It’s becoming clear that major employers across multiple sectors will allow at minimum a hybrid work-from-home situation or even completely remote. The ability to live anywhere one would like, travel and still squeeze some work days, have time during the day to do laundry, get a quick workout in etc, and not have to commute are all HUGE perks. Throw in a decent salary that has narrowed the gap between physicians and the lack of 7-10 years of delayed gratification and I just don’t see how medicine will continue to attract too notch candidates. Sure, there will always be some hellbent on medicine for whatever reason and I’m sure there will be plenty of average college students who apply, but on the whole I don’t get it. It might be the worst time in modern history to become a physician: highest debt, decreasing compensation compounded by inflation, death by paperwork, lack of autonomy/ownership and a general sense of entitlement by patients.

Now I’m fortunate to have stumbled into Radiology/IR which is still a reasonable option but I wouldn’t have recommended this path 3 years ago. In this post-covid world? Just look around at your peers. They have unparalleled job benefits now while medicine has gotten worse.

In fairness, rads and psych did get a piece of that pie to an extent. But yes, there are still plenty of other issues

 

[dnyal]

So you just want doctors to be academic clones, with little actual experience in service, which is what Medicine is.

The really Top Schools are research whor...umm... sex workers because their mission is to train the next generation of leaders in Medicine.

Even if we grant that we want to select for humanistic traits above academic performance beyond a certain threshold, it might so hard in practice that it becomes a detriment to the process of finding the best future docs if emphasized too much.

I agree with OP that med schools are going overboard with their unspoken requirements, and EC caps are a great idea. Goro's got a point but misinterpreted the post he was quoting. That person was not suggesting doing away with ECs, just putting a cap on them. Why? TrigeminalNeuralgia just explained it there: after a certain number of EC hours, there isn't much benefit for the student or the admission committee.

I commented here on something similar a while ago, and one of the adcoms people here pretty much admitted to using volunteer hours to rank applicants because they "needed some metric" to tell apart so many applications. That was the reason. Sure, it tells you the applicant was exposed to service, but more hours of service do not necessarily translate to "learning more service" or developing a better attitude toward it. Since it has become a requisite, everyone does it because it is required. This is in detriment of low SES and minority applicants, who don't come from privileged backgrounds that allow them the time off to fulfill often absurd service time requirements.

Actually, the post I commented on was someone who was saying they didn't have the transportation means to go and do many service hours, and everyone's reply was basically a iteration of 'shut up and suck it up.' Does this sound like med schools are making "big strides" (like someone commented here on this post) toward alleviating the burden for low SES and minority applicants? As long as med schools keep ranking students using "metrics," they will go nowhere when it comes to diversity. They actually haven't. All the years leading to the 2018 matriculant income background report by AAMC showed NO improvement whatsoever in the huge (and that's an understatement) bias toward high income matriculants. Gee, I wonder why they haven't released a new or yearly income report(!)

To OP's point, yes, there needs to be a push toward standardizing the admission process. Med schools' current 'holistic' review is basically asking applicants to do as many different things as possible and as much in each as possible. I understand the need to standardization through quantitative means, but you can't really quantify much the qualitative aspect of someone's service attitude using the total amount of hours. A professional interviewer, like some other post here suggested, could do much more toward that end.

 

[psyspy]

I bet premeds have already learned the M3 tradition of studying in the hospital (while they volunteer)

 

[CrazyHorseLady]

Having a cap for amount that research and ECs help. Base it more on GPA, MCAT, rigor/selectivity of undergrad, challenging interview situations, and supervised essay writing during interview day. Research, unless its done in a post-bac, PhD, etc should not really have any leeway because undergrads have minimal influence on the progression of the project they're on, and getting a poster at a pan-acceptance undergrad conference can be done by anyone. That and prize gap years a bit less. Training time is very long and older students are in fact quite limited in the specialties they can pick later

Why does no one talk about, oh I don't know, having working experience. The amount of young student docs that I know who will be doctors as their first job ever is mind boggling to me. IMO there should be way more emphasis on customer service experience, working in some capacity in healthcare, and having the responsibilities of a job before becoming someone’s doctor. Also a fantastic way to gain leadership skills.

The amount of academics who got 90+ percentiles on their MCATs, STEPs who do not know how to talk to patients concerns me and makes me understand why so many patients feel uncomfortable with so many doctors. If we want to form better physician-patient relationships and have a better understanding of what working in a leadership role of basically a healthcare customer service job, then emphasis should be placed on this.

 

[Goro]

I agree with OP that med schools are going overboard with their unspoken requirements, and EC caps are a great idea. Goro's got a point but misinterpreted the post he was quoting. That person was not suggesting doing away with ECs, just putting a cap on them. Why? TrigeminalNeuralgia just explained it there: after a certain number of EC hours, there isn't much benefit for the student or the admission committee.

I commented here on something similar a while ago, and one of the adcoms people here pretty much admitted to using volunteer hours to rank applicants because they "needed some metric" to tell apart so many applications. That was the reason. Sure, it tells you the applicant was exposed to service, but more hours of service do not necessarily translate to "learning more service" or developing a better attitude toward it. Since it has become a requisite, everyone does it because it is required. This is in detriment of low SES and minority applicants, who don't come from privileged backgrounds that allow them the time off to fulfill often absurd service time requirements.

Actually, the post I commented on was someone who was saying they didn't have the transportation means to go and do many service hours, and everyone's reply was basically a iteration of 'shut up and suck it up.' Does this sound like med schools are making "big strides" (like someone commented here on this post) toward alleviating the burden for low SES and minority applicants? As long as med schools keep ranking students using "metrics," they will go nowhere when it comes to diversity. They actually haven't. All the years leading to the 2018 matriculant income background report by AAMC showed NO improvement whatsoever in the huge (and that's an understatement) bias toward high income matriculants. Gee, I wonder why they haven't released a new or yearly income report(!)

To OP's point, yes, there needs to be a push toward standardizing the admission process. Med schools' current 'holistic' review is basically asking applicants to do as many different things as possible and as much in each as possible. I understand the need to standardization through quantitative means, but you can't really quantify much the qualitative aspect of someone's service attitude using the total amount of hours. A professional interviewer, like some other post here suggested, could do much more toward that end.

In polling people who have gotten into the Really Top Schools, I have found that they have hundreds if not even thousands of hours in their extracurriculars.

So no, there is no law of diminishing returns to extracurriculars, especially, especially when it is in service to others less fortunate than one's self.

 

[Goro]

Why does no one talk about, oh I don't know, having working experience. The amount of young student docs that I know who will be doctors as their first job ever is mind boggling to me. IMO there should be way more emphasis on customer service experience, working in some capacity in healthcare, and having the responsibilities of a job before becoming someone’s doctor. Also a fantastic way to gain leadership skills.

The amount of academics who got 90+ percentiles on their MCATs, STEPs who do not know how to talk to patients concerns me and makes me understand why so many patients feel uncomfortable with so many doctors. If we want to form better physician-patient relationships and have a better understanding of what working in a leadership role of basically a healthcare customer service job, then emphasis should be placed on this.

I value work experience, and in fact, I believe that it should be a requirement for medical school.

For many Medical School graduates, residency is their first job ever. And it shows, and not in a good way.

 

[CrazyHorseLady]

I value work experience, and in fact, I believe that it should be a requirement for medical school.

For many Medical School graduates, residency is their first job ever. And it shows, and not in a good way.

I’m glad to hear this. As someone who worked many jobs before med school, observing the way some med students, residents and even attendings talk to their patients- you can really tell who has worked with people before and who has not. Wish there was more emphasis in general on this. At least at my school a huge chunk of my class has never worked before.

 

[barrelgrubber321]

doesn't the perception of significant value on work experience only further drive a wedge between medicine and other career fields?

career paths like business value work experience in the form of internships because they represent microcosms of the actual role applicants are applying to fill and grow within, where medicine doesn't offer many similar opportunities because pre-meds don't have the authorization to work in positions that would serve as accurate portrayals of work as a practicing physician.
This, is addition to the differing gap in time between situations such as a summer internship before senior year and beginning as a junior analyst after graduation, compared to working as an MA in undergrad and starting as a resident; much less as a fellow or attending when employee autonomy begins to reflect that of the second+ year analyst and get away from supervised work, a point where prior experience becomes significantly more valuable.
It seems as tho undergrad (or an SMP) is a suitable "internship" for medical school which is a suitable "internship" for residency and so on.

it also seems as tho work experience in a clinical setting is already well valued and pre-meds are already seeking out the same 3-4 different entry level roles that pay near minimum wage just to use it in hopes of building their applications, especially in their gap years. It's probably safe to say that these roles aren't necessarily fulfilling for most applicants and feel like "stagnating" at a time when many of their peers are climbing the corporate ladder and building a career for themselves that may have a less bleak projection than their current path

I agree that a full time job interacting with thousands of patients has made me more suitable for being a doctor but I also believe that one can extract all the necessary lessons in less than 6 months and that the few lessons there are to be extracted should not outweigh the value of other EC's. Working to pay the bills is certainly separate but as far as taking jobs to progress towards career goals, other paths would appear a lot more attractive than medicine considering the opportunities for growth and application in the more immediate future.

tldr; wouldn't more kids rather intern with bank than work as a clinic secretary

 

[psyspy]

Why does no one talk about, oh I don't know, having working experience. The amount of young student docs that I know who will be doctors as their first job ever is mind boggling to me. IMO there should be way more emphasis on customer service experience, working in some capacity in healthcare, and having the responsibilities of a job before becoming someone’s doctor. Also a fantastic way to gain leadership skills.

The amount of academics who got 90+ percentiles on their MCATs, STEPs who do not know how to talk to patients concerns me and makes me understand why so many patients feel uncomfortable with so many doctors. If we want to form better physician-patient relationships and have a better understanding of what working in a leadership role of basically a healthcare customer service job, then emphasis should be placed on this.

They'll learn how to talk to patients with time. Also from what I've seen, those with 1-2 gap years are really no better than the straight throughs (i.e. first job ever). They're not all doomed to never develop bedside manner lol. They'll learn that in M3-residency

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

I agree with OPs premise. I don’t really understand why so many are applying to medicine given what other non-medical jobs can offer post-covid. It’s becoming clear that major employers across multiple sectors will allow at minimum a hybrid work-from-home situation or even completely remote. The ability to live anywhere one would like, travel and still squeeze some work days, have time during the day to do laundry, get a quick workout in etc, and not have to commute are all HUGE perks. Throw in a decent salary that has narrowed the gap between physicians and the lack of 7-10 years of delayed gratification and I just don’t see how medicine will continue to attract too notch candidates. Sure, there will always be some hellbent on medicine for whatever reason and I’m sure there will be plenty of average college students who apply, but on the whole I don’t get it. It might be the worst time in modern history to become a physician: highest debt, decreasing compensation compounded by inflation, death by paperwork, lack of autonomy/ownership and a general sense of entitlement by patients.

Now I’m fortunate to have stumbled into Radiology/IR which is still a reasonable option but I wouldn’t have recommended this path 3 years ago. In this post-covid world? Just look around at your peers. They have unparalleled job benefits now while medicine has gotten worse.

"It's good to be in something from the ground floor. I came too late for that and I know. But lately, I'm getting the feeling that I came in at the end. The best is over."

 

[dnyal]

In polling people who have gotten into the Really Top Schools, I have found that they have hundreds if not even thousands of hours in their extracurriculars.

So no, there is no law of diminishing returns to extracurriculars, especially, especially when it is in service to others less fortunate than one's self.

But Goro, this argument begs the question. Many adcoms use service or EC hours as a way to rank students, since many use scorings or formulas when doing so. Top school matriculants will then have a high number of service hours precisely because such high number was computed into the formula that got them in those schools.

I've read posts here on SDN of current doctors who said that 10-15 yrs ago they only showed like 80 hrs of community service, good academics, and they were golden! Are those doctors worse when it comes to servicing their patients than future graduates? How about IMGs who came from countries where the admissions focus is basically only academics (which tbh is the majority, speaking from personal experience)? Not long ago, there was a report saying that patients under the care of IMGs had statistically significant better mortality outcomes vs those treated by their US-graduated counterparts. It seems to me that EC hours have little impact on patient care and more on the SES of who gets into med school.

 

[deleted1139416]

Just wanted to pitch in my $0.02 about working in tech. Yes, it’s true that tech people are getting all the rage right now, and some even making more than doctors ($200K+). Yes, it’s also true that some niches in tech are having layoffs. It’s a mixed bowl right now. But does that make tech a stable long term career? Not necessarily. There’s a reason why depression is so rampant amongst software engineers. It’s a GREAT job to have when you’re young, but when you get into your forties, you have to compete with younger college grads. This will likely be a big problem in 6-7 years, because the US is having the highest amount of people flocking into software it’s ever had, even compared to before the dotcom crash.

It’s kind of like RadOnc and EM - whenever a career has a good lifestyle and excellent pay, you get people flocking to it and it ruins the job market. This is even more so with software engineering because alongside the rise of the field itself, there has been a rise in coding boot-camps, not to mention the fact that it’s the only high paying job in the world that doesn’t require a college degree.