Why are surgery attendings so miserable?

[Legion560]

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Okay, this isnt a question and answer thing. I just need to vent. I have no idea why certain attendings go out of thier way to make life hellish for thier residents. I am on a service right now in which the attending is downright rude, verbally abusive etc etc. Yes, I know. I am whining, BUT..you almost have to wonder what makes a person like that tick. Every time Ive gotten screamed at I debate whether to take this person seriously of just laugh in thier face. I can usually supress the urge to laugh out loud. The only thing good with this experience is knowing what NOT to be like when I become an attending. In fact, Ive given permission to my friends to kill be if I ever turn into a mad raving lunatic bi*ch like my current attending. Anyone else have bad attending stories? I guarantee that my attending can top yours in terms of being an unusually sadistic cruel she-demon.

 

[Blade28]

Anyone else have bad attending stories? I guarantee that my attending can top yours in terms of being an unusually sadistic cruel she-demon.

Uh, I doubt it. There are plenty of us surgical residents here who have equally (if not more so) horrific stories to share.

 

[3dtp]

Okay, this isnt a question and answer thing. I just need to vent. I have no idea why certain attendings go out of thier way to make life hellish for thier residents. I am on a service right now in which the attending is downright rude, verbally abusive etc etc. Yes, I know. I am whining, BUT..you almost have to wonder what makes a person like that tick. Every time Ive gotten screamed at I debate whether to take this person seriously of just laugh in thier face. I can usually supress the urge to laugh out loud. The only thing good with this experience is knowing what NOT to be like when I become an attending. In fact, Ive given permission to my friends to kill be if I ever turn into a mad raving lunatic bi*ch like my current attending. Anyone else have bad attending stories? I guarantee that my attending can top yours in terms of being an unusually sadistic cruel she-demon.

Perhaps because the size of their egos are inversely proportional to the size of their peniae? (is peniae the proper plural of penis?) Or perhaps the fragility of their ego is inversely proportional to the stability of their ability to maintain an erection.

 

[SergeGainsbourg]

Okay, this isnt a question and answer thing. I just need to vent. I have no idea why certain attendings go out of thier way to make life hellish for thier residents. I am on a service right now in which the attending is downright rude, verbally abusive etc etc. Yes, I know. I am whining, BUT..you almost have to wonder what makes a person like that tick. Every time Ive gotten screamed at I debate whether to take this person seriously of just laugh in thier face. I can usually supress the urge to laugh out loud. The only thing good with this experience is knowing what NOT to be like when I become an attending. In fact, Ive given permission to my friends to kill be if I ever turn into a mad raving lunatic bi*ch like my current attending. Anyone else have bad attending stories? I guarantee that my attending can top yours in terms of being an unusually sadistic cruel she-demon.

There's an attending here who sounds just like this woman you mention. I get along fine with her.

 

[colbgw02]

Okay, this isnt a question and answer thing. I just need to vent. I have no idea why certain attendings go out of thier way to make life hellish for thier residents. I am on a service right now in which the attending is downright rude, verbally abusive etc etc. Yes, I know. I am whining, BUT..you almost have to wonder what makes a person like that tick. Every time Ive gotten screamed at I debate whether to take this person seriously of just laugh in thier face. I can usually supress the urge to laugh out loud. The only thing good with this experience is knowing what NOT to be like when I become an attending. In fact, Ive given permission to my friends to kill be if I ever turn into a mad raving lunatic bi*ch like my current attending. Anyone else have bad attending stories? I guarantee that my attending can top yours in terms of being an unusually sadistic cruel she-demon.

the worst surgeon with regards to abusiveness at my med school got arrested for propositioning a minor of the same sex.

karma - it does exist.

 

[Hurricane]

Perhaps because the size of their egos are inversely proportional to the size of their peniae? (is peniae the proper plural of penis?) Or perhaps the fragility of their ego is inversely proportional to the stability of their ability to maintain an erection.

Penis looks like a 3rd declension noun, so the plural would be penes.

And there we have it - the one and only time the Latin I took in high school has ever been even remotely useful for anything.

Still kicking myself for not taking Spanish,
--Hurricane

 

[Faebinder]

The ego of surgeons comes from the unquestioned power and control of surgeons over the surgery teams. The foul mood comes from the insane hours they work (and the divorce) which leads to lack of a good life outside the hospital making what happens in the hospital 'their life'. And the feather that breaks the camel's back is every little event that makes 'their life' unhappy.

Maybe when all the old fashion attendings are replaced by attendings who only suffered the 80 hr rules in residency then we will see a happier set of surgeons... right now most attendings got abused in residency and are passing the love along.

I refer you to the abuse in this thread as an example.

If you ask me... every general surgeon needs a good psychiatrical session about every 3 months. 😉

 

[sophiejane]

Usually, behavior like that is a result of underlying insecurity (I know, armchair psychoanalysis). I say this from years of experience in another field dealing with narcissistic egomaniacs on a regular basis.

I have found if you hold your ground with people like that, be professional and polite but DO NOT respond positively to their tactics, i.e., don't cower and apologize, etc., then you can sometimes win their respect, and their interaction with you will change dramatically. I've tried this--it can work. It's all about the delivery.

You might say something like, "You seem to be pretty upset (hostile, frustrated, etc), Dr. Meanie. I'd like to understand why, because it seems to me that your reaction is out of proportion to my (insert your transgression here). Is this all about something I did, or is there something else going on?" ***at this point she may have a total emotional breakdown, so be prepared with kleenex 🙂 ***

Or simply, "Dr. Meanie, if we are going to have a functional professional relationship for the remainder of this rotation, it would help if we could both remain civil to one another and not become accusatory and hostile. I have remained respectful and professional in my interactions with you, and it would really help my morale if you could return the courtesy."

Some are just ugly to the core, there's no saving them, just laugh silently and move on.

 

[Leukocyte]

Maybe when all the old fashion attendings are replaced by attendings who only suffered the 80 hr rules in residency then we will see a happier set of surgeons... right now most attendings got abused in residency and are passing the love along.

What does the 80 hour rule have to do with practicing as a General Surgery attending?😕 The 80 hour rule (which I persoanally have not seen implimented at the 5 surgical programs that I have rotated at...more like 95+) applies only to residents...not attendings. Surgery, in general, IS a lifestyle....not just a job. Could it be a Job? I do not know.

General surgery is a demanding field. It can be very stressful. I think it is the MOST stressful and demanding specialty in all of medicine. Different people handle stress differently.

 

[sophiejane]

General surgery is a demanding field. It can be very stressful. I think it is the MOST stressful and demanding specialty in all of medicine. Different people handle stress differently.

There is NO excuse for being hostile, rude, or belligerent to another doctor (or tech or nurse or MS or nursing student), no matter how junior or no matter what kind of "teaching point" you are making. Besides, humiliation is the tactic of the poorest of teachers. Anything that needs to be said can be communicated in a mature and reasonable manner. This skill can even be cultivated in those with the worst communication skills. Just takes a bit of thought before opening your mouth.

I have met plenty of surgeons who do not throw things in the OR, are excellent teachers and are kind to pretty much everyone.

Bad behavior is just bad behavior. General surgery does not corner the market on stress, nor do they have carte blanche to be jerks even if they did. I'm so tired of the malignancy I see out there...it's up to the rising generation of docs to change this, and making excuses for people who behave badly is not the way to get there.

 

[Leukocyte]

...it's up to the rising generation of docs to change this, and making excuses for people who behave badly is not the way to get there.

I am a general sx hopefull (2007), and I also hate the malignancy. I had to deal with a great deal of "abuse" during my 5 surgical sub-I's...I hated it, and I do not intend to end up as a "mad" sx attending...

I am not making excuses. You are right....Bad behavior is bad behavior. But I think it is also not fair to judge them without walking a mile in their shoes. That is all I am saying.🙂

 

[Faebinder]

I am a general sx hopefull (2007), and I also hate the malignancy. I had to deal with a great deal of "abuse" during my 5 surgical sub-I's...I hated it, and I do not intend to end up as a "mad" sx attending...

I am not making excuses. You are right....Bad behavior is bad behavior. But I think it is also not fair to judge them without walking a mile in their shoes. That is all I am saying.🙂

Hey no one is saying surgeons are bad..... however, the hours, the stress, "everything-will-fall-apart-if-i-dont-personally-do-it-now", the lack of life outside the hospital.... it really does explain foul mood.... You get abused throughout 5-7 years of residency, it becomes 'normal' in your view to do the same to the next set of residents and so on.

It's just my opinion, of course you can disagree.

 

[sophiejane]

I am not making excuses. You are right....Bad behavior is bad behavior. But I think it is also not fair to judge them without walking a mile in their shoes. That is all I am saying.🙂

Fair enough. We all have bad and particularly stressful days. But once this becomes one's modus operandi, so to speak, it's no longer about stress. It's about a deeper level of dissatisfaction (personal or professional) that has nothing to do with the people their wrath is being unleashed upon, and that cannot be cured with a good night's sleep or a few days off.

I'm glad you are determined to be a nice surgeon. May that rub off on those who follow you. 🙂

 

[sophiejane]

Hey no one is saying surgeons are bad..... however, the hours, the stress, "everything-will-fall-apart-if-i-dont-personally-do-it-now", the lack of life outside the hospital.... it really does explain foul mood.... You get abused throughout 5-7 years of residency, it becomes 'normal' in your view to do the same to the next set of residents and so on.

It's just my opinion, of course you can disagree.

Then how do you explain all the very personable, even-keeled surgeons out there?

 

[zinjanthropus]

The foul mood comes from the insane hours they work (and the divorce) which leads to lack of a good life outside the hospital making what happens in the hospital 'their life'.

data to support this?

 

[erichaj]

Perhaps because the size of their egos are inversely proportional to the size of their peniae? (is peniae the proper plural of penis?) Or perhaps the fragility of their ego is inversely proportional to the stability of their ability to maintain an erection.

He said his attending was a SHE. Although, she may have a penis. I think he should ask her.😀

 

[erichaj]

Okay, this isnt a question and answer thing. I just need to vent. I have no idea why certain attendings go out of thier way to make life hellish for thier residents. I am on a service right now in which the attending is downright rude, verbally abusive etc etc. Yes, I know. I am whining, BUT..you almost have to wonder what makes a person like that tick. Every time Ive gotten screamed at I debate whether to take this person seriously of just laugh in thier face. I can usually supress the urge to laugh out loud. The only thing good with this experience is knowing what NOT to be like when I become an attending. In fact, Ive given permission to my friends to kill be if I ever turn into a mad raving lunatic bi*ch like my current attending. Anyone else have bad attending stories? I guarantee that my attending can top yours in terms of being an unusually sadistic cruel she-demon.

Ask her out. Maybe she is lonely. Take it upon yourself to as shakespere said, "tame the shrew". lol. 😍

 

[Winged Scapula]

data to support this?

I doubt it.

The rate of divorce is actually higher in other specialties than in surgery.

Many of us work fewer hours than some medicine or radiology (especially IR) attendings.

Many of us have a life outside of the hospital, albeit it may not be exciting, it does exist.

And many of us are nice and friendly...at least most of the time!😎

 

[serenity]

There is NO excuse for being hostile, rude, or belligerent to another doctor (or tech or nurse or MS or nursing student), no matter how junior or no matter what kind of "teaching point" you are making. Besides, humiliation is the tactic of the poorest of teachers. Anything that needs to be said can be communicated in a mature and reasonable manner. This skill can even be cultivated in those with the worst communication skills. Just takes a bit of thought before opening your mouth.

I have met plenty of surgeons who do not throw things in the OR, are excellent teachers and are kind to pretty much everyone.

Bad behavior is just bad behavior. General surgery does not corner the market on stress, nor do they have carte blanche to be jerks even if they did. I'm so tired of the malignancy I see out there...it's up to the rising generation of docs to change this, and making excuses for people who behave badly is not the way to get there.

I am a CA 1 anesthesiology resident and I resent this rude behavior which unfortunately we have to deal with all the time.
I feel that surgeon's ego's are pumped up all the time by nurses ,ancillary staff and patients.
They start thinking they are the best and have a right to belittle anyone in sight

 

[Faebinder]

data to support this?

Did ya see the part where I said it's my opinion... If I had data I would publish it... remember opinions are like **** everyone has one and they all stink.

but what the heck... lemme look on pubmed.

Here is one from wisconsin.

I am pointing at the study to show that the way surgeons are taught in the 5-7 years of residency in surgery determines how they behave later in many aspects, including lifestyle. The abused passes the abuse is a valid opinion unless you can prove otherwise.. Again don't mix what I am saying by thinking "Faebinder thinks Surgeons are bad people." This is not about surgeons being bad or good.

 

[sophiejane]

I feel that surgeon's ego's are pumped up all the time by nurses ,ancillary staff and patients.

Ego-pumping is not a passive process--it doesn't just flow downhill from ancillary staff and patients.

I think it has a lot to do with a predisposition that SOME surgeons have.

Granted, they need a lot of confidence to do what they do--it takes serious cajones. But I think some step over the line and take it too far, then take it out of the OR where it doesn't belong.

 

[erichaj]

I am a CA 1 anesthesiology resident and I resent this rude behavior which unfortunately we have to deal with all the time.
I feel that surgeon's ego's are pumped up all the time by nurses ,ancillary staff and patients.
They start thinking they are the best and have a right to belittle anyone in sight

In the OR, the surgeon is king. Your in his house.

You can't have two docs running the same show. One of them has to take orders from another.

But, I know what you mean. Many surgeons go out of their way to pump up their egos. They feel they must.

I make the exception for Kimberly. 😉

 

[JoBlo]

I doubt all the psychoanalysis is really neccessary. I jerk that's put in a position of authority will still behave like a jerk. I think that the tradition is that surgeons can get away with this type of behavior so more surgeons do it because they can. Its also a control tatic.

 

[jocg27]

Hey no one is saying surgeons are bad..... however, the hours, the stress, "everything-will-fall-apart-if-i-dont-personally-do-it-now", the lack of life outside the hospital.... it really does explain foul mood.... You get abused throughout 5-7 years of residency, it becomes 'normal' in your view to do the same to the next set of residents and so on.

It's just my opinion, of course you can disagree.

I totally agree that what you are saying is in fact the case.

But, that line of reasoning can reasonably be used to explain all kinds of abuse, some much nastier than the kind inflicted on medical students and residents by attendings.

I agree that everyone's experiences determine a great deal of who they become. Whether you realize it not, what you see and experience usually tends to become how you think things should be, it determines what you think is "normal"...And I don't know how to break cycles like that, no one does really. But at some point it stops being an origin for behavior and becomes an excuse. The buck has to stop somewhere...

 

[Blade28]

Penis looks like a 3rd declension noun, so the plural would be penes.

Yes! A fellow Latin nerd! 🙂 👍

 

[LADoc00]

Angry female surgeons (or any docs for that matter) are typically due to one main factor: lack of regular sex. I submitted a poster on this as an intern (and went on probation for it..but the truth needs to be laid bare).

 

[Faebinder]

Angry female surgeons (or any docs for that matter) are typically due to one main factor: lack of regular sex. I submitted a poster on this as an intern (and went on probation for it..but the truth needs to be laid bare).

Come on.. they really put you on probation for that? Sheesh... I bet your numbers were very valid. My mentor tells me it's all about money, power and sex.... You need money for sex and power. Now we are really going off topic.

 

[RxnMan]

Angry female surgeons (or any docs for that matter) are typically due to one main factor: lack of regular sex. I submitted a poster on this as an intern (and went on probation for it..but the truth needs to be laid bare).

This is the most awesome poster idea I have ever heard of

 

[LADoc00]

This is the most awesome poster idea I have ever heard of

Shortly after that and my abortive attempt at getting a project going on a protective suit that uses biosensors to detect airborne biological, chemical and nuclear contaminants, I received an official in writing letter from the Chairman and Med director I was not to conduct any research for the remainder of my residency on school grounds. Eventually I went on to be placed on "double probation" after of series of dating misteps involving peds attendings. Luckily I survived, by the hair of my chinny chin chin.

PS- I still published 5 articles in training even with the ban through the help of the rads department and a small psychology clinic (ironically I was a pathology resident!🙂 I became a covert medical director for.

 

[RxnMan]

Double-secret probation? Sounds like Dean Wormer ran your program!

I have a somewhat similar idea for something I like to call the Tazer Suit, which would allow you to move through crowds with ease as you give fellow pedestrians the gift of 10,000 volts.

Given your other posts, I just don't know whether to believe you or not.

 

[LADoc00]

Double-secret probation? Sounds like Dean Wormer ran your program!

I have a somewhat similar idea for something I like to call the Tazer Suit, which would allow you to move through crowds with ease as you give fellow pedestrians the gift of 10,000 volts.

Given your other posts, I just don't know whether to believe you or not.

Yeah, I *thought* at the time they were joking with the whole "double probation" thing but I guess my faculty mentors (2 guys I luckily played cards with on friday nights) convinced admin that I had some special potential that was still untapped....naturally when the board told me about it, I asked to see the GME documentation on this so-called "double probation"

As for my suit:
http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev29_3/text/biosens.htm
at the time, very few companies doing biosensor work had actual medical advisors and none had pathologists. I had nearly 3 hours in presentation, over 200 images, diagrams, tech specs when my presentation was cutoff by the conference moderator....apparently they ONLY wanted to hear about crap like transcriptional activation, homeobox genes and other such lame biotech/med topics.

 

[erichaj]

Yeah, I *thought* at the time they were joking with the whole "double probation" thing but I guess my faculty mentors (2 guys I luckily played cards with on friday nights) convinced admin that I had some special potential that was still untapped....naturally when the board told me about it, I asked to see the GME documentation on this so-called "double probation"

As for my suit:
http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev29_3/text/biosens.htm
at the time, very few companies doing biosensor work had actual medical advisors and none had pathologists. I had nearly 3 hours in presentation, over 200 images, diagrams, tech specs when my presentation was cutoff by the conference moderator....apparently they ONLY wanted to hear about crap like transcriptional activation, homeobox genes and other such lame biotech/med topics.

Dude you need help. really.😱