Why Are There Less Minorities In Medicine?

[Siggy]

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That's not what I said.

Its implied. They fear the [ 6' 50-year old white male with strong features] doctor because he is an outsider. They fear him because of his apperance and race.

 

[45408]

Its implied. They fear the [ 6' 50-year old white male with strong features] doctor because he is an outsider. They fear him because of his apperance and race.

Yah? And? I didn't say that the response should be a racist response, and you said that's what I said. Anyways, I'm about to stop responding, since I've got HW to do, and we've been pulled from my territory.

 

[Siggy]

post hoc ergo procter hoc? In the US, poor people have more kids too. Birth rate follows wealth, not the other way around. Poor people (a. have to give birth more because their children are more likely to die without good medical care (b. have to have more children to take care of the farm.

Look, I'm in favor of providing a boost for poor white kids too, but your statement is ridiculous. THEY DIDN'T ACHIEVE. It's already done - if they had achieved, they wouldn't need help.


That's why we need to catch them earlier, before we set them up for a big fall.

Then you're not making a fair comparison. Your teachers probably actually were at least slightly interested in seeing you succeed. Your parents probably provided an environment conducive to learning - they probably even told you to do your homework if you were falling behind. Poor students are already behind you at this point. Would I like to see a system that also helps poor white students? Of course.

I agree, we need to catch them earlier. The solution is to fix the source. Poor inner-city schools. Fixing the problem at post secondary institutions is like trying to put the genie back into the bottle. Giving URMs advantage at medical school admissions is helping out at the wrong place and the wrong time and is going to benifit the URMs that don't deserve any extra help more then the average non-URM does.

 

[somewhere2010]

Did it bother anyone else that "less" should have been "fewer" in the title? That kills me.

ooh good, i'm not the only grammar freak...everytime i see this thread, i say to myself, "LESS for intangible amounts, FEWER for things you can count" *sigh*

 

[sparkle_]

Some of y'all need to take an ethnic studies class and/or read some Tim Wise or Beverly Tatum (I highly recommend Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?).

 

[Shredder]

im sure those classes and books are very objective

 

[MoosePilot]

There are fewer because they're a minority? If there were ever more, then they'd be the majority and the minority would still have fewer?

 

[Shredder]

yes but they wont rest until theyre exactly proportional with the population, and even then they will come up with a contrivance for more (25% to each major race, race proportional to the vicinity in which the school is located). it will never end

 

[sparkle_]

"im sure those classes and books are very objective"

Nothing is objective.
But don't knock it til you try it.

 

[Shredder]

that may be true but classes meant to breed activism have more of an agenda than traditional ones. additionally, there should be a white studies class explicitly hailing white achievement to balance things out, but there isnt. thats more likely to be labeled "supremacy/nazi 101"

 

[MissMary]

Shredder: there should be a white studies class explicitly hailing white achievement to balance things out

I think its called: American History and we all have to learn it.

I don't think an ethnic studies course will necesarily go out of its way to "hail ethnic achievements" and I dont think their purpose is to breed activism. Ethnic courses are informative and their purpose is to educate those who ("Ethnic" or "Non-ethnic")wish to become more knowledgeable about other cultures.

I think Sparkle was trying to suggest that learning about other ppl and their cultures will help in understanding their position and why they feel the way they do.

 

[Orth2006]

Kerry wasn't exactly the role model for good grades, either, so I hope you didn't vote for him either.

The point isnt about Kerry vs bush. Its about a white male caucasian(majority) who is a C student but just happens to be the President of the US of A.

 

[Orth2006]

A witty picture (saying) proves nothing. Education won't fix the the structual problems in these societies, such as gangs, lack of expectations, bad schools.

Thats completely the opposite. The very reason why they are poor is because of poor education or lack of it. Education WILL fix structural problems if not in the short term but definitely in the long term.

 

[Orth2006]

I was always wondering, how do people in other countries feel about organizations such as doctors without borders and with doctors from america coming and treating them and building clinics for them. Are they unwilling to be treated or being treated inaffectively becuase these doctors come from America and know absolutely nothing about their culture? Of course not, they take what they can get because they lack doctors, but in America apparently getting medical care is not good enough, your doctor has to know your culture too to treat you. I find this interesting. As long as a doctor shows sympathy and compassion to his/her patients, what does race/culture have to do with it??

Race/culture is part of who we are. To pretend that doctors are saints and perfect is naive (a notable example Tuskegee experiment). Imagine what the circumstances must have been like over 200 hundred year ago during slavery. The blacks then were not allowed to get an education. Do you think they got the best of care from the doctors (probably mostly causcasians) of the day when they got sick? Do you think this "sympathetic" and "compassionate" white doctor really gave 2 hoots about an individual whom society deemed sub-human? Do you think the establishment of Howard, Meharry and many other black institutions were just to play the race card? Gladly we are no longer living in those times but our race/culture hasn't changed. SO simply showing sympathy and compassion does not mean the patient has gotten quality care. Healing is much more complex than just some medical diagnosis, lab test or even surgery. The feeling of trust can add to a healing process. Thats where race/culture come in. The practice of medicine is not as cut and dry as just being altruistic that why schools stress on "well-roundedness". Anyway the point is it is not as simple as that.

 

[huknows00]

Guys, you don't need to take sociology or ethinic studies classes to figure out that it's basically a cultural difference.

I am a non-URM minority who came to the U.S at 12 not knowing a single word of English. My parents made less than 20K a year all throughout middle school. I moved through 3 high schools with different ethnic compositions, being discriminated against at all of them. However, I went to an Ivy League college, did better on MCAT verbal than 98% of native english speakers, and is going to go to a top five medical school. I am not trying to generalize based on my personal experience, but there are tens of thousands of kids like me (of all races) who didn't have anything growing up and still made it because we tried.

THE POINT IS. How much obstacles you face is not as important as your motivation. It is all about what you WANT do to with your life. URM communities tend to have cultures that do not emphasize education - or sometimes hostile against education. How are you expected to think ahead to become a doctor when your high school classmates are all aspiring to be basketball players or rappers, and if you take an honors class you'll be hazed by your peers...

I think Affirmative Action is important to encourage URM to seek out professional careers, with hopes that they will help toward changing the self-perception and culture of URM communities. However, I don't know if doing this at the med school admissions stage is too late...

Maybe direct marketing to high school students may be more effective. Less of those Iverson Reebok commericals which glorify money, women, and cars (brainwashing kids to think that playing sprots is the way to get all the bling). Corporate America will try to get inner city kids to buy $150 sneakers beyond their means and to hope for glory beyond their reaches. What can we do... sadly that's what drives our economy...

 

[velo]

Well if the groups overrepresented in medicine(such as asians and whites) start working in inner city areas, improving the health of African Americans, and being role models to African Americans so that they will have a model to improve themselves and overcome disparities, than fine get rid of AA.

I'm not weighing in for or against AA with this post, but I will note that a sad reality is that many if not most of the URMs do not end up practicing in an inner city area, or work to improve healthcare for minorities, etc. Whatsmore there is a problem in the communities perpetuated by the patients themselves who sometimes view white physicians as superior to their black counterparts...

 

[Grrr]

How come only certain groups of minorities need special treatment? Why is it that Asians and Indians can be just as successful as whites without a helping hand? AA and URM status continue to lower the bar for certain groups of "special people" based solely on their skin color. If you can't compete than don't be a doctor and don't blame it on society.

Sorry, haven't read through the everything.

I have a quesiton. What do ya'll think about cultural bias? For instance, if my answer to this question was "Asian and Indian cultures promote hard work while other cultures do not," would you agree/disagree?

 

[hokte]

Sorry, haven't read through the everything.

I have a quesiton. What do ya'll think about cultural bias? For instance, if my answer to this question was "Asian and Indian cultures promote hard work while other cultures do not," would you agree/disagree?

I don't know about that, but I do understand that the history of Asians and Indians in this country is not the same as that of black Americans. The history of Africans is not the same as black Americans. There are a lot of different variables that factor into why things are the way they are. There is no way to have a completly fair way of rectifying the problem because it's too complex. It's terribly unfair to say that other cultures don't promote hard work. There are however some issues, but it can't be summed up like that.

 

[Bernito]

How come only certain groups of minorities need special treatment? Why is it that Asians and Indians can be just as successful as whites without a helping hand? AA and URM status continue to lower the bar for certain groups of "special people" based solely on their skin color. If you can't compete than don't be a doctor and don't blame it on society.

There are many reasons why Asians are succesful in the united states. For example, Asians have the highest median household income of any of the broad race groups:

http://www.sces.org/lmi/data/trends/perCapita/income10.asp

This is a generalization b/c obviously there are poor Asians. This is only part of it, but to say that the bar is being lowered solely because of skin color for URMs shows an ingnorance about the underlying issues.

 

[Shredder]

There are many reasons why Asians are succesful in the united states. For example, Asians have the highest median household income of any of the broad race groups:

http://www.sces.org/lmi/data/trends/perCapita/income10.asp

This is a generalization b/c obviously there are poor Asians. This is only part of it, but to say that the bar is being lowered solely because of skin color for URMs shows an ingnorance about the underlying issues.

i recently discovered that supposedly jews are far and away the wealthiest "minority" group, but i guess they dont get credit due to skin color

 

[odrade1]

There are many reasons why Asians are succesful in the united states. For example, Asians have the highest median household income of any of the broad race groups:

http://www.sces.org/lmi/data/trends/perCapita/income10.asp

This is a generalization b/c obviously there are poor Asians. This is only part of it, but to say that the bar is being lowered solely because of skin color for URMs shows an ingnorance about the underlying issues.

Today asians have a great median income; however, this is not always the case. Historically, immigrants are often rather poor. (If you doubt this, remember that one reason the conservatives in power right now like latin american immigration is that their average poverty makes them a fantastic source of cheap labor for buisness interests.) Perhaps we should be asking why have some asian populations become wildly successful, while others have remained poor. Asians-broadly construed--are an over-represented minority in medicine. This is not news. However, there are huge differences with respect to education achievment, representation in professions, etc. depending on which parts of Asia the original immigrants came from. What could account for their disparate levels of success? Values. Starting wealth & education.
The values and attitudes of the poor, undereducated whites in my city more closely resemble the values and attitudes of the poor, undereducated blacks in my city than they do the attitudes of the middle class and affluent whites. Similarly, the values of the affluent blacks in town most closely resemble the values of the affluent whites, and not the poorer blacks, despite shared skin color and relatively recent common history.

 

[modelslashactor]

You want to know why Asians are overrepresented in medicine?

Think about the easiest way for immigrants to come to this country: graduate school. When there were shortages in science and medicine in the 60s-80s the U.S. was very willing to allow Asian immigrants to come to train and work. I have a good deal of Asian friends and would wager that over 90% of them have parents with graduate degrees in science or engineering. The U.S. is able to choose who they want to come into the country from Europe and Asia, so why not take the best and brightest? You can see how the story unfolds from here.

Sorry if someone already mentioned this, the thread is too long to check everything.

 

[Bernito]

You want to know why Asians are overrepresented in medicine?

Think about the easiest way for immigrants to come to this country: graduate school. When there were shortages in science and medicine in the 60s-80s the U.S. was very willing to allow Asian immigrants to come to train and work. I have a good deal of Asian friends and would wager that over 90% of them have parents with graduate degrees in science or engineering. The U.S. is able to choose who they want to come into the country from Europe and Asia, so why not take the best and brightest? You can see how the story unfolds from here.

Sorry if someone already mentioned this, the thread is too long to check everything.

I'm not sure if its 90% but this is definitely a big part of it, i.e. which people from different populations get to the US and what they do when they are here (such as those pursuing graduate education for example). There is a similar skew when comparing South American Hispanics to American Hispanics, and Africans to African Americans.

 

[Whodathunkit]

Goodness! You'd think minorities were taking over in medical school classes the way some people rant. It's amazing, you all seem very vocal on a message board. Given the law of averages, you'd think I'd have met at least one of you once...Why don't you go up to one of the minorities in your premed/med class and have a heart-to-heart conversation to explain how you feel. You really need to get this off your chest. I'm sure they'd really be interested in knowing your opinions. 🙂

And sorry but poor white experience does not equal poor black/hispanic/native american experience. Similar perhaps, but not the same. But I do feel that poor whites should be judged favorably in the admissions process.

Just a thought to reflect on. Chris Rock is a comedian that some people find funny, not because he tells jokes, but because he makes observations that sometimes reflect truth. He said in one of his HBO specials:

There isn't a white man in this room that would change places with me. None of you. None of you would change places with me. And I'm rich!

 

[hokte]

Goodness! You'd think minorities were taking over in medical school classes the way some people rant. It's amazing, you all seem very vocal on a message board. Given the law of averages, you'd think I'd have met at least one of you once...Why don't you go up to one of the minorities in your premed/med class and have a heart-to-heart conversation to explain how you feel. You really need to get this off your chest. I'm sure they'd really be interested in knowing your opinions. 🙂

And sorry but poor white experience does not equal poor black/hispanic/native american experience. Similar perhaps, but not the same. But I do feel that poor whites should be judged favorably in the admissions process.

Just a thought to reflect on. Chris Rock is a comedian that some people find funny, not because he tells jokes, but because he makes observations that sometimes reflect truth. He said in one of his HBO specials:

OMG!! I've been thinking the same thing. After visiting this board I was under the impression that my whole med school class would be mostly black and hispanic. If this were not real life it would make a great comedy...

 

[MoosePilot]

Goodness! You'd think minorities were taking over in medical school classes the way some people rant. It's amazing, you all seem very vocal on a message board. Given the law of averages, you'd think I'd have met at least one of you once...Why don't you go up to one of the minorities in your premed/med class and have a heart-to-heart conversation to explain how you feel. You really need to get this off your chest. I'm sure they'd really be interested in knowing your opinions. 🙂

And sorry but poor white experience does not equal poor black/hispanic/native american experience. Similar perhaps, but not the same. But I do feel that poor whites should be judged favorably in the admissions process.

Just a thought to reflect on. Chris Rock is a comedian that some people find funny, not because he tells jokes, but because he makes observations that sometimes reflect truth. He said in one of his HBO specials:

So how is it that only minorities can *truly* understand the minority experience, but everyone can understand the poor white experience well enough to know that it does not equal the poor minority experience? I mean, frankly, I would agree, but only because nobody's experience is exactly the same (which is a definition of equal) as anyone else's.

I would trade to be Chris Rock. Are you kidding me?!

 

[1Path]

I would trade to be Chris Rock. Are you kidding me?!

I'm dam sure you're the ONLY white man in the universe that feels this way.

PS-You wouldn't happen to have the sickle cell trait would ya?

 

[Undecided1]

Sorry off topic, but out of all the topics in healthcare, why do we always start with minorities. What about obesity in the US or other problems? We are beating a dead horse. Some of the comments are shocking....to know that some day you guys will be my colleagues. I'm glad that some of are you are pre-meds. Since some of you are so upset about URMs, you need to apply to Idaho or Vermont. I'm just wondering what will happen to you if you happen to go on rotations at a less desirable site. Most of the teaching hospitals are in urban communities...have a discussion with them about URMs in medicine and AA.

 

[hokte]

Sorry off topic, but out of all the topics in healthcare, why do we always start with minorities. What about obesity in the US or other problems? We are beating a dead horse. Some of the comments are shocking....to know that some day you guys will be my colleagues. I'm glad that some of are you are pre-meds. Since some of you are so upset about URMs, you need to apply to Idaho or Vermont. I'm just wondering what will happen to you if you happen to go on rotations at a less desirable site. Most of the teaching hospitals are in urban communities...have a discussion with them about URMs in medicine and AA.

You think this is interesting, you should've read the post on "medical ebonics", or whatever. Whole topic was about how some other less educated mispronounce medical terms, name their children and etc. I'm sure some folks didn't have ill will when commenting, but still..... Aside from lack of funds, it's no wonder some segments of our society don't seek healthcare. If someone will make fun of you, there's no telling what else they might do.

 

[Whodathunkit]

Medical Ebonics

I too thought this thread, although occassionally amusing, was ultimately in poor taste. Especially more so, when it seemed that most of the patients they made fun of were likely black. People in the EM forum found it so popular, they made it a sticky .

Some patients may not be very educated, but they are very perceptive. And if they feel that their health care provider looks down on them or makes them feel inferior, it negatively affects the whole doctor-patient relationship. I've had many patients tell me that they've felt this before. It was comforting to them(whether they were right or not because they haven't met me) that I was less likely to give off that same vibe. Hopefully, every physician(minority or otherwise) has that same talent. Unfortunately, sometimes great grades and great bedside manner are mutually exclusive. It's then up to the Adcom committees to correctly figure this out. I've seen them make homeruns, and I've seen them strike out miserably.

Maybe I should look at those socially enept medical students, shun them, and say "You must've gotten in solely because of your grades!!" Oh..would they be pnwed.

 

[Gatewayhoward]

cant we all just get along. ha

 

[Lonestar]

same reason why you can't find a single Asian indian basketball player? 😀

 

[Llenroc]

It depends what minorities you are talking about. There's no shortage of Indians in medicine. Or Jews.

 

[OzDDS]

Sorry off topic, but out of all the topics in healthcare, why do we always start with minorities. What about obesity in the US or other problems?

Something I did find interesting is in one of these similar threads in this same forum ...where someone stated that the US census bureau predicts that "white" will be a minority in the US by 2050. And that the majority will be hispanic and african-american.

 

[raph91]

Argh, why was this brought to the top again after a hiatus since Christmas?

Everybody looks for a simple reason on either side about these multicultural issues. Face it - there is no simple answer.

The truth is that many Asians, regardless of where they live, often obtain professional positions because of cultural reasons and because their parents, who many times have low-end jobs, worked their butts off to get here. When you have this aura of "trying to make it in a new land" pervading your culture and your family, you often will try hard and get pretty far in life. They deserve it because they worked darn hard for it.

The other truth is that life is a mixture of choices and environment. Role models are important, but the most important ones are your parents and what they suggest you can be. Most Indians, for example, are portrayed as 7-11 cashiers/owners or gas station people on tv. However, their parents try and push them to a life that's greater than what they've had, and, gasp, it works. I think the single parent home and all these issues are important, but it isn't an excuse either. Many parents suck, plain and simple, compared to other ones. And that isn't because they are making less money. A lot of people scrape out meager existences with insane amounts of work. But there are choices on the parts of the parents. It makes their lives harder, sure, but they have as much of a responsibility to their kids as they do to anything else and if they fail in that responsibility then at the VERY LEAST, they should NEVER be allowed to have more kids (I im in an inner city hospital and I see large numbers of women who can't even take care of themselves coming in with >5 kids.)

I think the culture that should be thrown on EVERYBODY, including 2nd or 3rd generation Asian and Indian kids, is to just work your butt off because otherwise you'll be a failure in life. Stop with this "you can be what you wanna be" nonsense and push kids and make them realize that you have to work hard and you're going to experience huge obstacles along the way so just grin and bear it.

I think affirmative action is also important to offer students opportunities they may not have had. I think the concept of "diversity" should be separated from this concept. All people who have overcome their surroundings and their history (there are plenty of white people in the US who come from families that have never have had a college or even high school graduate) should be offered opportunities. The other issue is affirmative action related to race and making sure that minorities aren't turned down for jobs just because of their race/ethnicity. This is important too but is more subtle and harder to assess. It would be interesting to see what would happen if you made an admissions committee blind to the race card and only allowed judgment to be based on where they grew up, family income, schooling, family level of schooling, and college credentials. I think it might be close to the same representation. If not, then it can allow people to really take a look again and see what policies work and what don't and why certain people are missing the boat when they shouldn't have and why others don't miss it when they should have.