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Why Are There Less Minorities In Medicine?

Discussion in 'Topics in Healthcare' started by Napoleon4000, Dec 7, 2005.

  1. Napoleon4000

    Napoleon4000 Senior Member
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    As a rebuttal to the post: "Do you resent URMs?" I would like to know what you think are the reasons that only a small fraction of medical students, and for that matter any major profession, has such a dearth of diversity? I'm very interested in hearing ALL points of view. Thank you.
    Definition: www.aamc.org
    Before June 26, 2003, the AAMC used the term "underrepresented minority (URM)," which consisted of Blacks, Mexican-Americans, Native Americans (that is, American Indians, Alaska Natives, and Native Hawaiians), and mainland Puerto Ricans.
     
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  3. Fermata

    Fermata Hold me.
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    Wow. As if this topic has never come up before.

    Let's see:
    1.) Stability of family(ie, having a father)
    2.) Economic background
    3.) Quality of secondary education(related to property value which is related to economic background)
    4.) Perception of societal expectations for different types of people

    Blah.

    It doesn't matter anyways seeing as the only people in medicine in this country in the next 30 years will be Indian and Asian. ;)
     
  4. tank you

    tank you 2K Member
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    are u referring to minorities in general or specifically urms? bc if its the former, then there is a LOT of diversity, especially asians and asian-indians...
     
  5. Fermata

    Fermata Hold me.
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    I think most people are smart enough to realize that Asians and Indians are not underrepresented in medicine.

    Try stopping by Duke sometime and taking a look at the most recent class portraits. ;)
     
  6. Napoleon4000

    Napoleon4000 Senior Member
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    JTANK if you read the post carefully the definition is provided. Additionally, Asians (in general) and not underrepresented in the sciences or medicine. This is my last comment unless a question is directed to me. Thanks.
     
  7. Napoleon4000

    Napoleon4000 Senior Member
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    Please tell me what you think...
     
  8. Fermata

    Fermata Hold me.
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    No need to bump. People will choose to respond to or ignore your thread in time.

    It's 4:30 in the morning here.

    Relax.
     
  9. letmein!please?

    letmein!please? Senior Member
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    :laugh:
     
  10. dreamcrusher

    dreamcrusher Member
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    How come only certain groups of minorities need special treatment? Why is it that Asians and Indians can be just as successful as whites without a helping hand? AA and URM status continue to lower the bar for certain groups of "special people" based solely on their skin color. If you can't compete than don't be a doctor and don't blame it on society.
     
  11. Fermata

    Fermata Hold me.
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    I'm afraid the only answers you are going to get to this are going to be non-PC so most on SDN will not reply to you for fear of reprisal.
     
  12. MarzMD

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    Because people like you exist in the world.
     
  13. Fermata

    Fermata Hold me.
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    :: grabs popcorn ::
     
  14. Blake

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    Hey, that's my popcorn.
     
  15. Fermata

    Fermata Hold me.
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    It's the community popcorn.

















    And I saw it first.
     
  16. Blake

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    I was holding the bag. How could you see it first ?
     
  17. Fermata

    Fermata Hold me.
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    It has to deal with the speed of light.











    Very complicated.
     
  18. dreamcrusher

    dreamcrusher Member
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    You are laughable. So Indians or Asians never face racial discrimination in America? Asians and Indians make up far less of the population than African and Spanish decent Americans, but have no problems getting into med school so what are some good reasons why Asians or Indians can't check off the URM box on applications just like those groups? ::Now waiting for the race card to be played and expecting to be called "racist"::
     
  19. MarzMD

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    Because asians and indians are not URM in medicine. Keep the questions coming, Im here all night.
     
  20. hatter

    hatter use your illusion

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    So why are there so many asians in the health services anyway? Is it because asians are more kindhearted and altruistic, :rolleyes: or are they better at convincing people that they are, or is it just because they have better numbers/ecs?

    sorry to get off topic
     
  21. Psycho Doctor

    Psycho Doctor *** Angel
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    in addition to other views given, perhaps they are not interested in medicine or don't think they can hack it.
     
  22. Psycho Doctor

    Psycho Doctor *** Angel
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    they often have great numbers
     
  23. dreamcrusher

    dreamcrusher Member
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    Right, so if they aren't under represented, then doesn't that highly suggest that race plays no role in their personal success? Why should race play a role in admissions then through AA and URM status?
     
  24. MarzMD

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    Because the govt./AAMC...whoever...decided that they want to deal with the problem of URM in medicine. If you do not know why it is a problem, than I suggest you go do research. I do not think URM and the asian population in the US are under the same social/societal stressors, so Im not sure I follow your arguement.
     
  25. medhacker

    medhacker We can end world poverty!
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    Try signing up for a good course in African-american history or Hispanic-American history add to it, of course, a good course in ethnic sociology and the economical/educational history of racial/ethnical minorities in the U.S. (particularly: African americans, Native American and Latino). You can't, of course, leave out some studies on contemporary asian/indian history in the U.S.

    If that is not available they try a distance/online course(s)

    If all that fails, log on to google.com and find a couple of good books on the history of racial/ethnical minorities in the U.S. (particularly: African americans, Native American and Latino) together with corresponding sociology and economy books and analogous books on the asian/indian community of the U.S.

    Once you do that, if you don't concur yet with the opinion of the AAMC and the U.S. supreme court on why URMs are in fact underrepresented, and why other groups have "greater" numbers than URMs come back and we will have a good discussion.
     
  26. karat

    karat Member
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    I completely agree with you. If you can't cut it, you can't. As a poor (and thus disadvantaged) white boy, you get no help from the adcoms. nada. I would say really poor whites are just as underrepresented as blacks/hispanics/native americans.

    I, however, am a lowly asian indian who must face both societal racial discrimination yet enjoy the status of overrepresentation in medicine.

    I've learned to deal with my bitterness though because I like knowing that they don't have to lower their standards for me.
     
  27. MarzMD

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    Well if the groups overrepresented in medicine(such as asians and whites) start working in inner city areas, improving the health of African Americans, and being role models to African Americans so that they will have a model to improve themselves and overcome disparities, than fine get rid of AA. Until then, I agree with AAMC's decision to combat the societal disparities holding back African Americans(and other URM) because it improves the overall health and atmosphere of our nation. I know you are just going to say, well African Americans should just work hard and overcome these disparities on their own. To this, all I can say is, you have no clue about the history/problems in this country that many minorities face.


    *I do however think that AA as a permanent fix is a very bad idea. At some point it will will have to be done away with.
     
  28. karat

    karat Member
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  29. MarzMD

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    Im not sure what you mean by "gave me a break". Are you insinuating that the practice of AA action places URM into medical school that can't handle the workload? The ultimate goal is to diversify the field of medicine and produce good doctors and improve the health of our nation. Adcoms are not just picking an applicant because they are an URM. They actually make sure they have what it takes to succeed in medical school.
     
  30. medhacker

    medhacker We can end world poverty!
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    Name the ones you experienced directly

    Name your study sources please

    This is no doubt your opinion, after all obstacles most URMs encounter in their life, if one or two got a "break" and returned to its community to improve the lives of others who did not get the break and help destroy the poverty/sub-par education belts I would applaud it and call it social justice.
     
  31. Comrade

    Comrade Dissenting User
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    At least we know what 'over-representation' in medicine does for certain minorities-> Produces a competitive edge and a reputation for excellence worthy of envy. Good job asians, good job indians.

    This is ofcourse excluding Dr. Jayant Patel aka "Doctor Death" by the BBC and "Dr. Evil" by I forget where - maybe Time magazine or US News or maybe it was Maxim :rolleyes:
     
  32. PlasticMan

    PlasticMan Senior Member
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    What about if you live in a poor under-represented area in medicine? For instance on my AMCAS application there is a "(U)" next to both my place of birth and my current residence, and I am white. I know this is not the same as URM, but does it help at all for those who are not URM yet come from poor neighborhoods?
     
  33. medhacker

    medhacker We can end world poverty!
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    Under the new position of the supreme court regarding A.A. it does plasticMan
     
  34. PlasticMan

    PlasticMan Senior Member
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    :thumbup: :clap:
     
  35. karat

    karat Member
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    I read Roark's books on American history for my ap us history class. There are 2 editions of the book, one through the civil war and reconstruction, the 2nd from then to the modern era.

    As far as personal racism experience, I remember the the summer after 10th grade when i was working at a local store as a cashier, I was told "to go back to my country and let americans do the job" by an annoyed customer after I couldn't figure out what he was asking for. Mind you, I speak fluent Engish.

    But this is hardly the point. I'm not trying to "justify" my opinion to you. It is just that...my opinion. I'm not saying urm's get in BECAUSE of their race/ethnicity. But we can all agree it helps. White/Asians/Indians with similar stats are passed up for a few urm's that aren't necessarily better qualified AND some better qualified applicants are rejected.
     
  36. etudiante04

    etudiante04 phenomenal
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    Back to the original question - I think there are fewer URMs in medicine because there are few who are motivated to pursue a long career training process; many want to make money right away. There are fewer role models in medicine, and more in the media. I work at NIH, and I was talking with a African-American biotech sales rep. He had decent MCAT scores (above 30) but said he had no energy or patience for medical school. I was disgusted, but at least he as making a lot of money now. Also, I've had URM classmates/friennds who declared medicine freshman year, but by senior year, they gave up. It is true, some just don't have the desire. This is also true for non-URMs. However, these situations don't make affirmative action any less necessary.

    There are fewer URM medical school applicants to start with - especially African-Americans. Yet, the acceptance rate for most URMs - especially African-Americans - is lower than all the other racial/ethnic groups. See the AAMC website.

    In other words - despite the efforts of affirmative action and active recruitment, URM enrollment is now at an all-time low. So those who are crying against affirmative action should reevaluate their thinking and see that affirmative action is not a problem. URMs are not taking non-URM spots.

    One more thing - slightly off topic: It seems that people are using the affirmative action debate to attack all URM applicants. For the privileged URMs, their stats are pretty comparable to the average statistics. Some URMs even have higher stats. Yet some non-URMs will still complain that these URMs were accepted simply because of URM status. These URMs have high acceptance rates.

    For the less privileged URMs (the ones who really should benefit from affirmative action): they have had it rough, but they still have desires to improve the healthcare of their communities. Yet these URMs are attacked because they have lower stats. Many non-URMs think these URMs are less qualified to hack it in the medical profession.

    The prevalance of these opinions - especially the first - shows how ignorant we can be. No one is perfect, we are all human. So to rectify a human error, we try a "non-human" approach - affirmative action. As long as these opinions of URMs prevail, the longer we will need affirmative action. So if you want affirmative action to go away, then the ignorant should keep their negative perceptions at bay so that many from different walks of life can pursue their professional dreams.

    Go ahead flame away. I have said my piece, and I will post no more.
     
  37. riceman04

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    Because so many asians and south asians apply to med school. Isn't that like a cultural thing?

    Aren't they disowned if they do not go into science. I hear that in many cases the parents attempt to force them into the profession.
     
  38. medhacker

    medhacker We can end world poverty!
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    No offense intented, but You are officially unqualified and unlearned in the area of the URM experience. You may confirm this with the head of African-american history of your nearest university with such a department - contact them for a chat and you'll see.

    Having one or a few such experiences does not put you in the pool of those who share a historical and systematical lack of access and resources bro...

    More than what many URMs can claim...

    No one said you are, my replies are not intents to coerce you from expressing your constitutionally protected right to free speech, I am just making use of the very same right homes

    As it should as can be seen by most sensible/educated people once they become "truly" conscious of the URM experience in the U.S.



    better qualified in terms of numbers? perhaps, so are other equally qualified applicants passed up for other equally qualified ones, there just are not enough seats. So some of those seats are reserved for the purposes of social justice and the hope of improving medical service to underserved communities, I say Well done!!, about time!! :thumbup:


    The job of most medical institutions is not to accept a full class of 40+ MCAT 4.0 GPA applicants - their primary job is to serve the medical needs of the people of the U.S. - by accepting some URMs that missions is indeed being accomplished.
     
  39. Elastase

    Elastase StanfUrd bound!!!
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    But WHY are they not interested in medicine or they don't think they can hack it?


    Its based on a lot of factors. If you can't even get an A/B average in high school or junior college, then you will never even think about becoming a professional in general. Why would ONLY URMs decide not to become a professional? Your comment made it seem as if it were a lazy decision, but its just that some URM (mostly b/c of socioeconomic factors) are having a hard time even getting into college b/c of various barriers (language, financial, etc.) The UC system is seeing a statewide drop in URMs in college...so its not surprising that they have a hard time even getting in the right numbers for med school..
     
  40. Pepper1o1

    Pepper1o1 Senior Member
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    I'm sorry, but do you personally know Karat? If not (which I suspect is the case, since you called her "bro"), then you are supremely unqualified to make any pronouncements about what her experience as an immigrant in the US was like. In fact, making such assumptions about her background might even put you in the same "pool" as people who assume that URM's are unqualified matriculants of medical school. Imagine that.
     
  41. veenut

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    this is the weirdest thing i've read all morning. and i've been reading the URM threads constantly bc they're so much fun.
     
  42. medhacker

    medhacker We can end world poverty!
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    While I admire your loyal attempt to come out and defend karat, I must inform you, you are sorely mistaken at your criticism of my reply to karat.

    If you would return to my reply, you will realize I was replying to karat's own admission and narration of her/his experience as an immigrant. So you are mistaken at claiming I know nothing about her experience, I asked Karat to let me in her/his experience, and once she did I replied to that only

    I usually call bro' sis' homes, etc to most people indiscriminately, no offense intended and you would be too temperamental to take it as one.

    In conclusion, hold your horses and kindly realize I have not done what you have accused me of ;)
     
  43. PlasticMan

    PlasticMan Senior Member
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    I think you make a very good point there. I have been wondering why immigrants or people of descent from eastern europe or previous USSR countries are not URMs. People that come from ex USSR are prolly just as poor and underprivledged as those represened as URM; however, the communities in the U.S. of these people are much smaller. There are many more underprivledged African American and Hispanic communities that need to be served medically.
     
  44. Orth2006

    Orth2006 Senior Member
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    What the F you talking about. George W. Bush (white male caucasian - C student) didnt he get a break in Yale because his family was rich and famous. Today a C student is the president of the United States. SO much for the "smartest must always be the ones to get the best".
     
  45. karat

    karat Member
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    Thanks for standing up for me pepper, we should def hang out if we both end up at buffalo. :)

    I just want to make it clear that I don't mean to offend anybody. Of course I understand that there has been a great deal of injustice (and ongoing justice today) in America. I know that people are not privileged like I am. I am not contradicting the unfortunate circumstances of many.

    All I am saying is that when it comes to something like med school admissions, it's hard as an applicant to accept that it is an sometimes others' race is often an advantage (and often a disadvantage).

    In my opinion, it is just as wrong to favor somebody on the basis of their race/ethnicity/sex/religion as it is to discriminate against them on the same basis. And yes, I do think that urm's receive a little special consideration when it comes to admissions...they are not ALWAYS held up to the same standard (yes, I'm talking about numbers here) as their non-urm peers. I know that a good doctor is not always determined by numbers blah blah, but come on there is a reason these things exist.

    Once again, I do not mean to offend anyone with my OPINION. But I've wasted enough of my day with this thread. AAMC policies are out of my control just like AA. I will go back to worrying about things I can control.
     
  46. dreamcrusher

    dreamcrusher Member
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    It's obviously a typo. Sue me.
     
  47. Pepper1o1

    Pepper1o1 Senior Member
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    Haha, touche. Of course I realize that the term bro' is used indiscriminately, I was just trying to point out that you probably don't know everything about the poster. Just because you asked for specific experiences doesn't mean that she will then go ahead and post every discriminatory experience encountered from age 0. She gave an EXAMPLE of one such experience. It seemed pretty clear to me... And just because you preface a statement with "no offense" ("No offense intented, but You are officially unqualified and unlearned in the area of the URM experience") doesn't mean that it's not offensive. Particularly if you don't know anything about the poster's background, but simply assume that the example she gave of discrimination is the only one she has had. I certainly agree with many of your other comments in this thread, and even your responses to other parts of karat's post. However, the above snipped just struck me as rather uninformed and offensive.
     
  48. gostudy

    gostudy Black covfefe. No sugar, no cream
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    Dude, that is a horrible source for real history. In order to understand history you must delve deeper than the blah blah PCstuff offered by AP history. They are not gonna give the whole story. You wanna get the whole story from the eyes of minorities or the souls of certain minority groups in this country? Try these for size: Souls of Black folk by WEB DuBois. Roots by Alex Haley. Autobiography of Malcolm X also by Haley. Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison. Any non-fiction book on classical and modern black nationalism (and the US government's attempt to stifle it). Then Karat get back to me. Talking about black Americans, give me one other group of peoples whose history, culture, and dignity were stripped away? Ask any African American where their ancestors are from? Less than 1 and 10 (assuming they are not 2nd generation foreign) will not be able to tell you. And no, Africa is not a country.

    What all those who "resent URMs" should stop and think about is how the world is viewed and encountered by certain minority groups in this country. I always like to present this thought experiment in racial debates: White people who are reading this, picture a time that you have been in the minority esp. among black people. I'm not talking about like 2 or 3. I'm talking about scores. Have you ever been in this situation? If so how did you feel. Probably how you felt is how many minorities feel on a daily basis. Go into any inner city school and ask them who their role models are. Seriously 99% of them will mention a musician, athlete, or other entertainer. Ask white kids the same question, the percentage will still be very high, but less than black kids. Why? bc there are many more successful white politicians, businessmen, etc. that are on TV and highlited by the media. As a URM, ORM, or whatever when you go home today, turn on the TV and observe it what situations you see whites in the media etc. and in what situations you see blacks in the media etc. Then do some serious thinking. Sorry for the ramble. But some of you need to take a step back and think about the "Souls of Black Folk"
     
  49. gostudy

    gostudy Black covfefe. No sugar, no cream
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    Dude, that is a horrible source for real history. In order to understand history you must delve deeper than the blah blah PCstuff offered by AP history. They are not gonna give the whole story. You wanna get the whole story from the eyes of minorities or the souls of certain minority groups in this country? Try these for size: Souls of Black folk by WEB DuBois. Roots by Alex Haley. Autobiography of Malcolm X also by Haley. Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison. Any non-fiction book on classical and modern black nationalism (and the US government's attempt to stifle it). Then Karat get back to me. Talking about black Americans, give me one other group of peoples whose history, culture, and dignity were stripped away? Ask any African American where their ancestors are from? Less than 1 and 10 (assuming they are not 2nd generation foreign) will not be able to tell you. And no, Africa is not a country.

    What all those who "resent URMs" should stop and think about is how the world is viewed and encountered by certain minority groups in this country. I always like to present this thought experiment in racial debates: White people who are reading this, picture a time that you have been in the minority esp. among black people. I'm not talking about like 2 or 3. I'm talking about scores. Have you ever been in this situation? If so how did you feel. Probably how you felt is how many minorities feel on a daily basis. Go into any inner city school and ask them who their role models are. Seriously 99% of them will mention a musician, athlete, or other entertainer. Ask white kids the same question, the percentage will still be very high, but less than black kids. Why? bc there are many more successful white politicians, businessmen, etc. that are on TV and highlited by the media. As a URM, ORM, or whatever when you go home today, turn on the TV and observe it what situations you see whites in the media etc. and in what situations you see blacks in the media etc. Then do some serious thinking. Sorry for the ramble. But some of you need to take a step back and think about the "Souls of Black Folk"
     
  50. nimotsu

    nimotsu 荷物
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    I've seen many threads on this, and I think the subject should be put to rest.
     
  51. DropkickMurphy

    DropkickMurphy Membership Revoked
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    I honestly believe this thread needs to come to an end, but at the same time I do believe the main reason for a far lower rate of representation is that there is far less emphasis put on education in inner cities and extreme rural settings (the latter being what I grew up in and the few of us who planned to attend college in something non-farm related were actively discouraged from doing so by the "respected" members of the community).
     

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