Why are there so many branch campuses?

[dangit]

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Don't be so literal and instead take it to mean just this: Law did not adequately limit and regulate the number of people entering, receiving, and finishing their training programs. Now there are more lawyers than jobs and they are all fighting amongst each other for the few available jobs. Even undesirable jobs are hot now, and the wages paid are way down. (At least in my area.) Medicine needs not to do the same thing. We have two choke points at which to do this and we need to do this.

Can you elaborate what you mean by choke points? So, what needs to be done?

 

[randomusername]

Can you elaborate what you mean by choke points? So, what needs to be done?

I'm thinking they mean that there are two points at which the number of future docs can be limited: limiting the number of people admitted to med school (which was in place for a good portion of the latter-fourth of the 20th century) and limiting the number of people that can obtain a residency position. Just think of it as traffic choke points; you can bottleneck the road at the on-ramp so that fewer cars get on the highway or you can narrow the highway down from four lanes to two so that it takes longer for a car to make it through all the traffic.

 

[DocEspana]

I'm thinking they mean that there are two points at which the number of future docs can be limited: limiting the number of people admitted to med school (which was in place for a good portion of the latter-fourth of the 20th century) and limiting the number of people that can obtain a residency position. Just think of it as traffic choke points; you can bottleneck the road at the on-ramp so that fewer cars get on the highway or you can narrow the highway down from four lanes to two so that it takes longer for a car to make it through all the traffic.

I was trying to write a analogy to how the real world works using your car analogy. Its rather weak.

But the reality is that we currently have a 1 or 2 lane onramp. Which has been a 1 lane forever and recently increased to a two lane so we're all happy about the increased traffic. But the throughway is 20 lanes. It is in massive excess of what we can actually put on the road. Because of all that excess road space being unused, all the tourists know that if they want to travel fast they should detour themselves from back in the adjacent state onto our highway so they can blaze down all the extra lanes we have that we cant even put cars onto because we have to use the terribly small onramp.

Because of this, once we finally get on the highway, it looks crowded to us and we demand even more lanes. Despite the fact that we are only increasing the on ramp a little bit at a time, we are constantly adding more lanes or diverting funds for onramp development towards more lane development. But because we still have a 2 or 3 lane onramp those 20+ lanes of the highway are still attracting tourists to all the lanes we keep demanding they build more of.


the long and short of it is that the medical student shortage is real. Making diploma mills or substandard rushed education hurts us. But we DO need more campuses. We do need more schools. We do need more american trained doctors. Just don't half ass it. Because no matter how much people involved in the actual legislation end tell you this: people seem to think there is a residency shortage when there is actually a massive residency excess. We have thousands and thousands of unfilled residencies even if every single MD and DO 4th year got matched. Yet we demand more residencies all the time. The biggest thing diluting our pool of doctors is foreign trained doctors. They shouldn't make up 40% of our residents. But they do because we keep demanding more residencies and are too morally uptight to realize that despite the need for PCPs, we actually want more specialties. So we ask for more PCP residencies and they just all go to more foreign or overseas-trained doctors.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

Residency is huge. With the oncoming crunch, the importance of residency placement cannot be overstated. New schools are actively discriminated against, and new DO schools get double discrimination in MD residencies. Sorry, but that's reality.

Clinical rotations are another huge piece of the puzzle. Sorry, but "finding your own" stinks. I've said it before: do not attend a med school that does not have it's own, LOCAL, clinical rotations. Preferably a university hospital. You'll live to regret it.

Having been on the "educator" side of those who do "away rotations", I can assure you that the "local med school kids" get far better education and priority over someone who is from another school that visits for a month or three.

Once again, I understand ALL of these points. The fact of the matter is these points aren't just a product of branch campuses. These issues would be ANY new school (branch or not) arising. PNWU and RVU both come to mind. Neither are a branch campus, neither have added any residencies and neither had their clinicals established when they opened their doors.

So this leads me full circle, why is a branch campus any worse than a brand new non-branch campus in these regards?

 

[Dissected]

Once again, I understand ALL of these points. The fact of the matter is these points aren't just a product of branch campuses. These issues would be ANY new school (branch or not) arising. PNWU and RVU both come to mind. Neither are a branch campus, neither have added any residencies and neither had their clinicals established when they opened their doors.

So this leads me full circle, why is a branch campus any worse than a brand new non-branch campus in these regards?

RVU is it's own can of worms.

I have no problem with PNWU mostly because up until now there has been ONE medical school for WWAMI (Washtington, Wyoming, Alaska, Montana, Idaho) to share. That is a crime in my opinion. I was really excited about PNWU, but I felt like I couldn't take it seriously until it was a few years older and had better established clinicals (like you mentioned). Otherwise I would probably be PNWU-2013 right now.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

RVU is it's own can of worms.

I have no problem with PNWU mostly because up until now there has been ONE medical school for WWAMI (Washtington, Wyoming, Alaska, Montana, Idaho) to share. That is a crime in my opinion. I was really excited about PNWU, but I felt like I couldn't take it seriously until it was a few years older and had better established clinicals (like you mentioned). Otherwise I would probably be PNWU-2013 right now.

I actually have the same opinion as you. Along with the fact that the tuition is a tad on the high side. Or else I probably would have been PNWU-2015.

I know RVU is its own can of worms, but I was trying to lead the conversation back to "branch campuses" instead of just "new schools but not new residencies". Since that was your original question.

 

[Dissected]

I know RVU is its own can of worms, but I was trying to lead the conversation back to "branch campuses" instead of just "new schools but not new residencies". Since that was your original question.

Yea. It's hard to justify creating more schools w/o more residencies

I understand what some of the people were talking about when they mentioned 'choke points,' however, why do we need two of them? The clear choke point should be admission to medical school, but why have another bottleneck at the level of residency education? Maybe this is an idle argument on the ACGME side with so many slots, but I think there needs to be more AOA residencies in all fields. There aren't even close to enough for the number of DO's that graduate every year, which to me is very silly. If DO schools are going to start cropping up, there needs to be a push to increase the amount of AOA residency spots that are going to be available to students once they graduate. If that can't be guaranteed, then the AOA should slow the massive school expansion that is going on. I dunno..I'm only a second year but that is my view of things at this juncture.

 

[JW08]

Once again, I understand ALL of these points. The fact of the matter is these points aren't just a product of branch campuses. These issues would be ANY new school (branch or not) arising. PNWU and RVU both come to mind. Neither are a branch campus, neither have added any residencies and neither had their clinicals established when they opened their doors.

So this leads me full circle, why is a branch campus any worse than a brand new non-branch campus in these regards?

FYI.. RVU just helped setup 10/10/10 IM residency in Peublo, CO. I know its not much, but they are in talks with other hospitals as well.
http://www.chieftain.com/news/local/article_3d02af5c-f600-11df-afe1-001cc4c03286.html

 

[csmittyB]

FYI.. RVU just helped setup 10/10/10 IM residency in Peublo, CO. I know its not much, but they are in talks with other hospitals as well.
http://www.chieftain.com/news/local/article_3d02af5c-f600-11df-afe1-001cc4c03286.html

Unless RVU's first graduating class is 10 people, I personally don't think thats adequate. Although, it is better than nothing

 

[Slack3r]

I thought Coastie was a DO?? No?

Seconded. I think he is.

I want the DO profession to be strong. Dilution isn't the key...and degree change isn't the key. We need strong MD and DO programs to maintain a strong position as physicians.

Agreed. Branches, to me, makes the degree look LESS legitimate. Not more. It makes the schools look more like Devry University School of Medicine than a serious medical institution. And new schools without rotations and for-profit schools aren't helping the matter.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

Seconded. I think he is.



Agreed. Branches, to me, makes the degree look LESS legitimate. Not more. It makes the schools look more like Devry University School of Medicine than a serious medical institution. And new schools without rotations and for-profit schools aren't helping the matter.

So this is the big argument for why branch campuses are the devil but brand new schools that aren't branch campuses are completely fine?

 

[Coastie]

So this is the big argument for why branch campuses are the devil but brand new schools that aren't branch campuses are completely fine?

I don't think brand new schools are fine either. We are opening up too many schools, period.

Remember Coastie's simple rules for "med school you should attend":

1) local rotations, set up by the school
2) university hospital
3) core rotations not shared with other schools
4) good match list
5) low tuition
6) been around > 5 years
7) not for profit

 

[Slack3r]

So this is the big argument for why branch campuses are the devil but brand new schools that aren't branch campuses are completely fine?

Read the next sentence after the one you bolded. Rapid school expansion, whether they be branches or stand-alone institutions, is not a good thing.

We are opening up too many schools, period.

Srsly.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

I don't think brand new schools are fine either. We are opening up too many schools, period.

Remember Coastie's simple rules for "med school you should attend":

1) local rotations, set up by the school
2) university hospital
3) core rotations not shared with other schools
4) good match list
5) low tuition
6) been around > 5 years
7) not for profit

Read the next sentence after the one you bolded. Rapid school expansion, whether they be branches or stand-alone institutions, is not a good thing.


Srsly.

Ok then I totally agree. Once again I was simply going by the OP who was asking about branch campuses much more than new schools in general and that's why I was trying to distinguish the two.

I also would agree with your list Coastie, these factors have led me to a branch campus instead of many normal campuses. Though to be fair this branch campus is a strong close second to my number one which meets all criteria (WL).