Why are US schools structured this way?

[Urnathok]

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So, the United States seems to be relatively unique in that it doesn't offer medical education at the undergraduate level -- in the UK, for example, med school applications happen right after high school. Some countries in Asia are similar (though I think S. Korea is gravitating towards our system).

Is there a practical reason for requiring a technically unrelated degree first in the US? I mean, I can see some logic in wanting to make the process more selective, but if those four years were that important, I'd think more countries would be on board for this model, and for most people that four year degree is a tremendous monetary investment to couple with medical school.

 

[prolixity29]

As with most things in life, the answer has to do with $$$.

When your country has what are internationally highly regarded, you can afford to charge paying customers a lot more for them to achieve their educational goals.

Also, salaries of doctors (and to some extent other professions requiring graduate education) can be inflated by controlling supply through mandatory extra schooling.

Of course these are not the reasons our system was initially instituted, but it probably has a lot to do with why it has been perpetuated.

 

[TexasSurgeon]

So, the United States seems to be relatively unique in that it doesn't offer medical education at the undergraduate level -- in the UK, for example, med school applications happen right after high school. Some countries in Asia are similar (though I think S. Korea is gravitating towards our system).

Is there a practical reason for requiring a technically unrelated degree first in the US? I mean, I can see some logic in wanting to make the process more selective, but if those four years were that important, I'd think more countries would be on board for this model, and for most people that four year degree is a tremendous monetary investment to couple with medical school.

Don't listen to the guy above me.


The reason for it is because the US is very big on liberal education. Yes, 4 years seems pointless but it is a time for you to develop skills in areas which you may not know you had. You learn to write professionally and keep an open mind, for instance. Talk to anyone here on this forum and they will tell you that undergrad years are the best in your life. Everyone here can say those 4 years are critical to your development.

 

[darkjedi]

As with most things in life, the answer has to do with $$$.

When your country has what are internationally highly regarded, you can afford to charge paying customers a lot more for them to achieve their educational goals.

Also, salaries of doctors (and to some extent other professions requiring graduate education) can be inflated by controlling supply through mandatory extra schooling.

Of course these are not the reasons our system was initially instituted, but it probably has a lot to do with why it has been perpetuated.

😕😕😕

While money is a factor, it is definitely not the primary motivating factor in having MD's still be a doctorate level degree. It still remains that medical schools appreciate recruiting students who have had experiences outside of college. BS/MD programs are on the decline, while admissions committees are increasingly favoring non-traditionals and older candidates.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Don't listen to the guy above me.


The reason for it is because the US is very big on liberal education. Yes, 4 years seems pointless but it is a time for you to develop skills in areas which you may not know you had. You learn to write professionally and keep an open mind, for instance. Talk to anyone here on this forum and they will tell you that undergrad years are the best in your life. Everyone here can say those 4 years are critical to your development.

Those 4 years were a waste of my time.

 

[TexasSurgeon]

Those 4 years were a waste of my time.

You must not have had many experiences. Considering from your previous posts.....

 

[dahassa]

Don't listen to the guy above me.


The reason for it is because the US is very big on liberal education. Yes, 4 years seems pointless but it is a time for you to develop skills in areas which you may not know you had. You learn to write professionally and keep an open mind, for instance. Talk to anyone here on this forum and they will tell you that undergrad years are the best in your life. Everyone here can say those 4 years are critical to your development.

+1

Furthermore, the problem with a system that goes straight to medical school from high school is you have to know what you want to do when you are 16-18 years old. How many people in that age group are mature enough to make that type of decision? A lot of people decide to go into medicine or decide not to go into medicine during college. Those are the formative years in your development and maturity. In addition, such a system greatly disadvantages low-income students. How many people from struggling public high schools would have the ability to enter medical school straight out of school? Undergrad serves as an equalizer. It creates a uniform blanket of opportunity and the pre-med requirements make sure everyone has the appropriate foundation.

 

[Geebeejay]

From everything I've read, heard and researched the college requirement is supposed to give us a "well-rounded" education and to make certain that we really do want to become doctors. Then there is the BS/MD program that I wish I could have gone to for those who are certain about a commitment to medicine. I don't think you have to be an adult to know what you want to do in life. I do think an 18 year old high school graduate can know for certain what he/she wants to do in life and stick to it. Those required classes that we need for a "well-rounded" education have mostly just been a waste of time and money in my opinion. I hardly learned anything useful. Maybe I don't fully understand this concept of a "well-rounded" education. In my experience, it just means taking classes that have nothing to do with the field you want to study.....and somehow this will be helpful to your field of study?😕 I agree about that critical development that you mentioned, I just doubt its worth all the money we have to put into it. There are quite a few things I would change about undergraduate education here.

I don't.

And I didn't know what I wanted when I was 18. I actually didn't know much of anything. And I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want 19 yr old med students and 21 yr old interns taking care of me, that is downright terrifying.

 

[TexasSurgeon]

Actually, I really hate being in college. When I was leaving high school I wanted to go straight into medical school. I'm a Junior undergraduate now and those thoughts haven't changed - I still wish I could skip university and go straight to med school. To be honest, if 4 years of undergrad wasn't a US requirement I would never have done it. I just haven't had a good college experience and I know there are many people out there who have. I really don't think that's my problem though. Even if I had a good college experience at least I would enjoy it, but I would still want to skip it

From everything I've read, heard and researched the college requirement is supposed to give us a "well-rounded" education and to make certain that we really do want to become doctors. Then there is the BS/MD program that I wish I could have gone to for those who are certain about a commitment to medicine. I don't think you have to be an adult to know what you want to do in life. I do think an 18 year old high school graduate can know for certain what he/she wants to do in life and stick to it. Those required classes that we need for a "well-rounded" education have mostly just been a waste of time and money in my opinion. I hardly learned anything useful. Maybe I don't fully understand this concept of a "well-rounded" education. In my experience, it just means taking classes that have nothing to do with the field you want to study.....and somehow this will be helpful to your field of study?😕 I agree about that critical development that you mentioned, I just doubt its worth all the money we have to put into it. There are quite a few things I would change about undergraduate education here.

I much prefer the UK medical education system and wish I could have gone though that vs the US system. It depends on the person. Some people enjoy college and the US system is perfect for them. Others know what they want to do, don't enjoy college and just want to get on with their lives.

You realize that BS/MD programs still make you go into an undergrad university for at least 3 years right? And you can still leave the BS/MD route if you choose to do so at many universities.

I do agree that a lot of it is taking classes that seem to be useless, and I'm pretty sure you will not need to know how torque relates to medicine but you can you honestly say that high school classes are any better in terms of how useful the classes are?

I personally think the 4 years help you develop communication and interpersonal relations between people, and you get to show that during the interview. I honestly don't think an 18 year old HS student has developed the maturity to show that in a med school interview. The US may not have the best lower education, but it consistently wins in the areas of higher education/university education

How can a HS graduate be entirely sure? That's what the 4 years are there for as well, to help a person find their route instead of being stressed the whole time lost in their plans for the future. There's even people here on SDN who are in med school and are considering quitting because even after the 4 years of undergrad, they find that it wasn't meant for them, etc.

 

[Law2Doc]

+1

Furthermore, the problem with a system that goes straight to medical school from high school is you have to know what you want to do when you are 16-18 years old. How many people in that age group are mature enough to make that type of decision? A lot of people decide to go into medicine or decide not to go into medicine during college. Those are the formative years in your development and maturity. In addition, such a system greatly disadvantages low-income students. How many people from struggling public high schools would have the ability to enter medical school straight out of school? Undergrad serves as an equalizer. It creates a uniform blanket of opportunity and the pre-med requirements make sure everyone has the appropriate foundation.

Agreed. Not only does the US value the liberal arts background more than elsewhere, but they want people to have matured a bit, become more socialized, and actually spent some time and figured out if medicine is right for them. We also have the benefit if having people jump through more hoops to prove thmselve prior to admissions so we don't have to fail them out later (US med school attrition is dramatically lower than many countries). it's kinder. Finally, practice in the US is different here then elsewhere -- we live in a litigious society here patients have certain expectations and rights and frankly a smart teen wouldn't on averge do as well here as someone better seasoned. Those who have been through it mostly agree that it would have been a mistake to start med school right out of high school. The only people who ever complain about the structure are young impatient premeds. Truth of the matter is the light at the end of the tunnel is a train and it will destroy your youth. Best to enjoy a few years of college first. If you do it right they can be the greatest four years of your life.

 

[TexasSurgeon]

Sorry Urnathok, now I'm just as confused as you about why we need an unrelated Bachelor's degree to become a doctor in the US.

You actually don't. You just need to complete the prereqs technically, but almost all applicants have a BS so it's kind of an unwritten requirement for many med schools.

 

[sublimesc]

There are several reasons undergraduate, non-medical education is an advantage to a population of physicians, but the main two for me are diversity of knowledge in the medical field and maturity. A group of physicians coming from very different academic backgrounds allows multiple modes of thinking, and multiple high quality institutions are open to the fact that they like to see non-traditional applicants with more life experience.

 

[Doctor Strange]

Come on, guys... Undergrad is fun. I love medicine and all, but I needed to live life and learn some other stuff a little first.

 

[sliceofbread136]

You must not have had many experiences. Considering from your previous posts.....

No more or no less than I would have had if I was a med student those 4 years instead of an undergrad student...

 

[274631]

As someone who grew up and went to High School in a UK based system, I think there are both pros and cons to each. Which is a better system really depends on the individual.

For me, I am glad I spent the extra time in undergrad in the US system. It allowed me to discover fields that I did not know about and gave me a lot of time to grow and develop and experience things I would not have, had I gone straight to medical school. There was a period in time during undergrad where I seriously did not know if medicine was what I really wanted to do. I think if I had gone straight to medical school from high school I would have been miserable and hated the experience honestly because I did not have the same perspective I do now.

However, some people really do know without a doubt what they want at 18 and would do well going straight through medical school. I think that while you gain time and money, you do loose some years of maturing, etc by taking this route.

 

[sliceofbread136]

As someone who grew up and went to High School in a UK based system, I think there are both pros and cons to each. Which is a better system really depends on the individual.

For me, I am glad I spent the extra time in undergrad in the US system. It allowed me to discover fields that I did not know about and gave me a lot of time to grow and develop and experience things I would not have, had I gone straight to medical school. There was a period in time during undergrad where I seriously did not know if medicine was what I really wanted to do. I think if I had gone straight to medical school from high school I would have been miserable and hated the experience honestly because I did not have the same perspective I do now.

However, some people really do know without a doubt what they want at 18 and would do well going straight through medical school. I think that while you gain time and money, you do loose some years of maturing, etc by taking this route.

But you still mature in med school. Honestly you probably mature even faster in med school.

Personally I already knew what I wanted to do, and undergrad felt alot like 4 years of spinning my wheels to show I was good enough. I would have much prefered to start my medical education earlier.

 

[SoulinNeed]

Undergrad schools want you to pay for four years of education. That's the main reason.

 

[Granny Watkins]

You realize that BS/MD programs still make you go into an undergrad university for at least 3 years right? And you can still leave the BS/MD route if you choose to do so at many universities.

I do agree that a lot of it is taking classes that seem to be useless, and I'm pretty sure you will not need to know how torque relates to medicine but you can you honestly say that high school classes are any better in terms of how useful the classes are?

I personally think the 4 years help you develop communication and interpersonal relations between people, and you get to show that during the interview. I honestly don't think an 18 year old HS student has developed the maturity to show that in a med school interview. The US may not have the best lower education, but it consistently wins in the areas of higher education/university education

How can a HS graduate be entirely sure? That's what the 4 years are there for as well, to help a person find their route instead of being stressed the whole time lost in their plans for the future. There's even people here on SDN who are in med school and are considering quitting because even after the 4 years of undergrad, they find that it wasn't meant for them, etc.

I wasn't talking about not getting much out of science classes. I was referring to classes like my multicultural literature course and US history, amongst others.

Not everyone can be held to the same standards because you can't possibly know the maturity level of every single teen in the world. There are those who know what they want to do in life and can be successful at it. I never said the US has a bad educational system, I suggested that there are places for improvement in my opinion.

Also, yes I know what the BS in BS/MD stands for. What I should have clarified is that you are guaranteed a spot in med school, whereas in the traditional route there is no guarantee that I will ever get into a medical school.

You actually don't. You just need to complete the prereqs technically, but almost all applicants have a BS so it's kind of an unwritten requirement for many med schools

But a lot of schools do require a BA or BS which is the point.

I agree with GingerGirl27 that it depends on the individual, but I'm from the UK system too and I wish I could have stayed there and gone into medicine after high school. I understand the experiences you've gotten out of going to a US university, but from my perspective I am sure of what I want to do and I look at these 4 years as holding me back. Just have to make the most of it.

But you still mature in med school. Honestly you probably mature even faster in med school.

Personally I already knew what I wanted to do, and undergrad felt alot like 4 years of spinning my wheels to show I was good enough. I would have much prefered to start my medical education earlier.

Definitely.

 

[Law2Doc]

But you still mature in med school. Honestly you probably mature even faster in med school....

not in the same "coming of age"/knowing yourself and becoming socialized sort of way you don't. It's like picking produce off the tree too early. It doesn't mature in the supermarket in a good way, it rots. The whole point of college is to do non medical things, socialize with non-premeds, participate in the events and culture college has to offer, explore other interests and options. As such it can be the best and most formative years of your life. Med school isn't like this at all. Sure shallow closed minded people in college sometimes manage to avoid a liberal education if they really try, take nothing but biochem nd hang out with only premeds, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't be a better doctor if you partook in the rest of the offerings. In the opinion of US med school admissions, well rounded and better thought out people make better doctors for our system.

 

[274631]

not in the same "coming of age"/knowing yourself and becoming socialized sort of way you don't. It's like picking produce off the tree too early. It doesn't mature in the supermarket in a good way, it rots. The whole point of college is to do non medical things, socialize with non-premeds, participate in the events and culture college has to offer, explore other interests and options. As such it can be the best and most formative years of your life. Med school isn't like this at all. Sure shallow closed minded people in college sometimes manage to avoid a liberal education if they really try, take nothing but biochem nd hang out with only premeds, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't be a better doctor if you partook in the rest of the offerings. In the opinion of US med school admissions, well rounded and better thought out people make better doctors for our system.

I agree with the bolded. You will mature in medical school but it will definitely be a different experience. And less rich one imo.

 

[The Beyonder]

not in the same "coming of age"/knowing yourself and becoming socialized sort of way you don't. It's like picking produce off the tree too early. It doesn't mature in the supermarket in a good way, it rots. The whole point of college is to do non medical things, socialize with non-premeds, participate in the events and culture college has to offer, explore other interests and options. As such it can be the best and most formative years of your life. Med school isn't like this at all. Sure shallow closed minded people in college sometimes manage to avoid a liberal education if they really try, take nothing but biochem nd hang out with only premeds, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't be a better doctor if you partook in the rest of the offerings. In the opinion of US med school admissions, well rounded and better thought out people make better doctors for our system.

What about the undergrads that change their minds about becoming a physician. If people could go for high school to medical school there would be more unsatisfied physicians.

 

[Geebeejay]

But you still mature in med school. Honestly you probably mature even faster in med school.

Personally I already knew what I wanted to do, and undergrad felt alot like 4 years of spinning my wheels to show I was good enough. I would have much prefered to start my medical education earlier.

you should be pretty mature before medical school. You will be broken down and tested mentally, emotionally and physically throughout medical school, and you already need to be strong and mature enough to deal with it like an adult. The system would break catastrophically if schools were full at the brim with teenagers with little to no real world and social experience.

 

[Doctor Strange]

The United States produces some of the best physicians in the world. People come here to become doctors, not often the other way around. We must be doing something right by requiring time for students to have that 3+ years before medicine.

 

[TexasSurgeon]

you should be pretty mature before medical school. You will be broken down and tested mentally, emotionally and physically throughout medical school, and you already need to be strong and mature enough to deal with it like an adult. The system would break catastrophically if schools were full at the brim with teenagers with little to no real world and social experience.

Sadly, this is how it is in many Asian countries. Kids go into med and many come out unsatisfied, only to realize they cannot leave because there is no other option.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Those 4 years were a waste of my time.

man, your undergrad must have sucked.

best part of college -> banging bitches, drinking, doing drugs. It was ****ing awesome.

 

[Doudline]

The United States produces some of the best physicians in the world. People come here to become doctors, not often the other way around. We must be doing something right by requiring time for students to have that 3+ years before medicine.

This somehow comforts me in my idea that college does not do anything for critical thinking in most people.

 

[MadRadLad]

All these people saying they'd skip undergrad are alarming. The hell were you doing? Those are without doubt the best years of your life.

Last time I checked, the US has a laundry list of people who want to get their medical education here because of the quality. If you guys are so sure that you want to go into medicine straight out of high school, go to a different country.

 

[Daodejing]

The rah-rah support for 4 years of undergrad on this thread is coming from many who haven't experienced the international system. The only system they, myself included, know is the American 'liberal-arts, holistic, well-rounded, more time to mature' method (which actually is a derivative of a European system). Try and find some opinions of those who've experienced or taught under both systems. That being said, it's not like both systems don't have their faults. However, despite having the majority of the historically esteemed institutions of the world, the US lags behind its peers in many academic indices. To say this does not translate over to medical education and training, and ultimately national healthcare, is also short-sighted imo.

This isn't even taking into account the economics - that paying 4 years for a bachelor's degree, whether at a public of private institution, is rapidly becoming a near impossibility for many families.

 

[Narmerguy]

The rah-rah support for 4 years of undergrad on this thread is coming from many who haven't experienced the international system. The only system they, myself included, know is the American 'liberal-arts, holistic, well-rounded, more time to mature' method (which actually is a derivative of a European system). Try and find some opinions of those who've experienced or taught under both systems. That being said, it's not like both systems don't have their faults. However, despite having the majority of the historically esteemed institutions of the world, the US lags behind its peers in many academic indices. To say this does not translate over to medical education and training, and ultimately national healthcare, is also short-sighted imo.

This isn't even taking into account the economics - that paying 4 years for a bachelor's degree, whether at a public of private institution, is rapidly becoming a near impossibility for many families.

As someone with experience in the European system, I still agree with the "rah rah" in this thread. In fact, I've talked to many of them about the US system vs their system and they almost always wish they could have the freedom to explore whatever they wanted for four years like we do in the US.

 

[Daodejing]

As someone with experience in the European system, I still agree with the "rah rah" in this thread. In fact, I've talked to many of them about the US system vs their system and they almost always wish they could have the freedom to explore whatever they wanted for four years like we do in the US.

Yeah. I've also heard from students and educators abroad on both sides of the fence. I am not advocating getting rid of undegrad completely - obviously it has and sometimes serves its purpose. But I think there should be viable alternatives (other than BS/MD) for those students who do know and are committed, while keeping the traditional 4 year route for those interested. Although admittedly over-simplistic, something like vocational fast-tracks in undergrad for students can be implemented. Some high schools have taken this approach but, to my knowledge, these haven't been tested in higher education.

Of course, the value of the undegrad experience is highly dependent on the individual student and his/her institution attended, which explains sliceofbread's comments and the contrasting ones of most everybody else. Personally, I feel the undergrad core curricula of UChicago and Columbia a bit too restrictive, while Brown's a bit too liberal for example. Other schools may have something in between but their individual requirements may suit many students but may rub others off the wrong way.

 

[circulus vitios]

College was an incredible waste of time and money. My 'maturing' was done outside of class and I sure as hell didn't need to spend $30k on a worthless bachelors degree to get there. If you 'matured' in college then I feel bad for you because any personal growth you experienced was derived from a useless and artificial environment.

The US needs to cut out the bull**** and make a BS-MD or MBBS program the standard for medical education. There is no reason for us to waste 4 years of our lives and go tens of thousands of dollars in debt before we even start our medical education.

 

[darkjedi]

College was an incredible waste of time and money. My 'maturing' was done outside of class and I sure as hell didn't need to spend $30k on a worthless bachelors degree to get there. If you 'matured' in college then I feel bad for you because any personal growth you experienced was derived from a useless and artificial environment.

The US needs to cut out the bull**** and make a BS-MD or MBBS program the standard for medical education. There is no reason for us to waste 4 years of our lives and go tens of thousands of dollars in debt before we even start our medical education.

lol so bitter

thankfully adcoms have the foresight to disagree with you as that will never happen here in our lifetimes.

 

[circulus vitios]

lol so bitter

thankfully adcoms have the foresight to disagree with you as that will never happen here in our lifetimes.

The idiot academics who sit on admissions committees think a pointless education is valuable? Color me surprised!

 

[TexasSurgeon]

College was an incredible waste of time and money. My 'maturing' was done outside of class and I sure as hell didn't need to spend $30k on a worthless bachelors degree to get there. If you 'matured' in college then I feel bad for you because any personal growth you experienced was derived from a useless and artificial environment.

The US needs to cut out the bull**** and make a BS-MD or MBBS program the standard for medical education. There is no reason for us to waste 4 years of our lives and go tens of thousands of dollars in debt before we even start our medical education.

If you don't like being in the higher education system in the US, get out of this country and study someplace else.


Oh wait: The US produces some of the best physicians in the world.

 

[survivordo]

Those 4 years were a waste of my time.

I will agree that in terms of becoming a physician they were a waste of time, maybe about 10% of it was applicable to my future career. However, I will add that those 4 years were DEFINITELY the best of my life to this point and I wouldn't take them back for the world. I'm sure I actually took home a lot more than what I gave it credit for.

Survivor DO

 

[circulus vitios]

If you don't like being in the higher education system in the US, get out of this country and study someplace else.


Oh wait: The US produces some of the best physicians in the world.

The quality of US physicians, which I don't even know how you would measure, has absolutely nothing to do with the necessity of 4 years of worthless pre-medical study.

 

[Daodejing]

Oh wait: The US produces some of the best physicians in the world.

Although I don't undervalue the worth of US clinical training, your statement doesn't make it clear why American medicine is the best, let alone why IMG's apply for residency spots here. For some it may very well be because of the social dynamics of their home country (ie. higher taxes, less income, corrupt government, etc).

On another note, R.I.P. to this thread.

 

[serendipity007]

As someone who also has experienced both systems of education, I prefer the kinder aspects of the liberal arts system. Are there any disadvantages? Sure. The time and $ money aspect. Almost all my friends back in the motherland are almost already doctors while I haven't even started med school yet. But was my time and $ well spent? I don't know about money since I am still figuring it out how to pay loans but the time I spent in undergrad was some of the best years of my life. I wouldn't exactly say I would do it again in a heartbeat since I am ready to get to the next stage of my life, plus those loans are not exactly going to get paid off on their own

If you don't like being in the higher education system in the US, get out of this country and study someplace else.


Oh wait: The US produces some of the best physicians in the world.

Woah there! What's with all the hate? Certain news anchors and politicians too love to spew the "if you don't like it here, get out of this country" nonsense. What's the matter? People can't even dare to disagree with you without you throwing a tantrum about leaving the country? Not cool 👎

 

[The Beyonder]

Undergrad is to expensive, but if it was a waste of time.... You did it wrong.

 

[TexasSurgeon]

The quality of US physicians, which I don't even know how you would measure, has absolutely nothing to do with the necessity of 4 years of worthless pre-medical study.

Although I don't undervalue the worth of US clinical training, your statement doesn't make it clear why American medicine is the best, let alone why IMG's apply for residency spots here. For some it may very well be because of the social dynamics of their home country (ie. higher taxes, less income, corrupt government, etc).

On another note, R.I.P. to this thread.

Sorry guys, I should have made it more clear what I meant. I was typing through my phone. I meant to say that if he were to leave this country for the HS direct to medical, he wouldn't get trained in an American medical school, which does produce some of the world's best doctors. Why else do people come to this country instead of another? I didn't say American medicine is the best, just that the training itself is very thorough. I've spoken to lots of foreign doctors who have told me of this vs. their medical schools in their countries of origin.

Woah there! What's with all the hate? Certain news anchors and politicians too love to spew the "if you don't like it here, get out of this country" nonsense. What's the matter? People can't even dare to disagree with you without you throwing a tantrum about leaving the country? Not cool 👎

You mean to say that when a person writes something like this:

College was an incredible waste of time and money. My 'maturing' was done outside of class and I sure as hell didn't need to spend $30k on a worthless bachelors degree to get there. If you 'matured' in college then I feel bad for you because any personal growth you experienced was derived from a useless and artificial environment.

The US needs to cut out the bull**** and make a BS-MD or MBBS program the standard for medical education. There is no reason for us to waste 4 years of our lives and go tens of thousands of dollars in debt before we even start our medical education.

I can't disagree with him about it and say something along similar lines? Are you seriously disagreeing with my decision to disagree with him/her about this? With all the pessimism the poster has, I think he can deal with a bit of his own medicine. Besides, it seems like he really would have gone to another country

 

[serendipity007]

You mean to say that when a person writes something like this:



I can't disagree with him about it and say something along similar lines? Are you seriously disagreeing with my decision to disagree with him/her about this? With all the pessimism the poster has, I think he can deal with a bit of his own medicine. Besides, it seems like he really would have gone to another country

Hahahahahaha we're cool man 😀

 

[TexasSurgeon]

Hahahahahaha we're cool man 😀

Yay 👍

 

[sliceofbread136]

you should be pretty mature before medical school. You will be broken down and tested mentally, emotionally and physically throughout medical school, and you already need to be strong and mature enough to deal with it like an adult. The system would break catastrophically if schools were full at the brim with teenagers with little to no real world and social experience.

The UK system seems to be doing fine. I really don't think med school will be THAT hard, I think people are drama queens about it.

man, your undergrad must have sucked.

best part of college -> banging bitches, drinking, doing drugs. It was ****ing awesome.

Hmmmm, well I didn't know all of these things required you to pay college tuition to do them. Not that I actually think you did any of that considering you had to post about it on a pre-med forum

 

[circulus vitios]

Those 4 years were a waste of my time.

Exactly. I paid $30k so I could waste 4 years of my life taking classes that were almost entirely worthless. Sure, some of the classes were interesting but it was still a monumental waste of time and money.

 

[Urnathok]

I'm a little surprised at how staggeringly different the opinions are.

My original post wasn't intended to imply that I had a strong opinion one way or the other, though. I'm on the fence, though I do appreciate the input from those of you who've seen both sides of things.

I think the liberal education model varies in mileage far more than others; it really is what you make it. The fact that there have been several people in this thread coming from the same kind of institution with opinions at opposite poles supports that. I've also known people in highly technical fields that begrudge the fact that their education (engineering in this case) puts blinders on them to the better part of what they consider worthwhile study.

It's also true that undergrad is a tremendous monetary investment, which in and of itself is a tremendous burden for most students, many of whom are rightfully disgruntled that their investment isn't guaranteed to provide an immediate payoff.

Personally, I would think it reasonable for Medicine to be available as an undergraduate major. That would retain the liberal model while opening up more careers in healthcare for people who want to stop at the Bachelor's level, and students who want to go on to become physicians or go into other fields related to medicine could go on to appropriately selective graduate programs for their MD or PhD.

...that said, the current system is very deeply ingrained, so I would be surprised to see much of a shift if it wasn't apparently necessary.

 

[Narmerguy]

Yeah. I've also heard from students and educators abroad on both sides of the fence. I am not advocating getting rid of undegrad completely - obviously it has and sometimes serves its purpose. But I think there should be viable alternatives (other than BS/MD) for those students who do know and are committed, while keeping the traditional 4 year route for those interested. Although admittedly over-simplistic, something like vocational fast-tracks in undergrad for students can be implemented. Some high schools have taken this approach but, to my knowledge, these haven't been tested in higher education.

Of course, the value of the undegrad experience is highly dependent on the individual student and his/her institution attended, which explains sliceofbread's comments and the contrasting ones of most everybody else. Personally, I feel the undergrad core curricula of UChicago and Columbia a bit too restrictive, while Brown's a bit too liberal for example. Other schools may have something in between but their individual requirements may suit many students but may rub others off the wrong way.

My point is, why would any school/patient want this? Despite the urgency that some premeds may feel about wanting to become a doctor sooner, it's certainly not to the benefit of medical schools (or patients) to select applicants with less experiences, less evidence of success at a level higher than HS, less maturity, and less exposure to other students and peers who are pursuing and engaged in different things. There's really very little benefit to this, and a lot of likely costs.

lol so bitter

thankfully adcoms have the foresight to disagree with you as that will never happen here in our lifetimes.

Yep, I don't think anyone that has the data and makes decisions about these things is going to worry about this for quite some time.

 

[KnuxNole]

All these people saying they'd skip undergrad are alarming. The hell were you doing? Those are without doubt the best years of your life.

Last time I checked, the US has a laundry list of people who want to get their medical education here because of the quality. If you guys are so sure that you want to go into medicine straight out of high school, go to a different country.

This. You definitely won't have the same experiences if you went straight to med school. Also, people are different at 18 compared to 22. The bulk of the "maturing and growth" occurs outside of the classroom. Unless you only viewed undergrad as a place to go to school and study, there is a vast amount of things that you experience. And like mentioned, even within school, you find something to study which might interest you. If you went to school in a place that is different from your hometown, that is another aspect. I.e. going to school in a bigger city with a more diverse population when you were living in a smaller town for your life. In addition, for some, you are on your own for the first time, even away from the comfort of your hometown friends, to meet new people and learn more about yourself. I guess you CAN do this in med school as an 18 year old but hopefully the heaps of studying won't get in the way...



There isn't a need to rush through things...

 

[Tyw]

All these people saying they'd skip undergrad are alarming. The hell were you doing? Those are without doubt the best years of your life.

Last time I checked, the US has a laundry list of people who want to get their medical education here because of the quality. If you guys are so sure that you want to go into medicine straight out of high school, go to a different country.

People are stating different reasons for disliking the American system, but by far the strongest argument is the cost of undergrad. I personally loved those 4 years and would definitely say that they are the best I ever had, but if you told me that I could have gone straight to medical school and saved thousands of dollars then I would definitely have to think about it.

Undergrad helps us mature, no doubt, and it comes with its share of amazing experiences for most of us, but it's way too expensive. Our friendly neighbors in Canada as well as many other countries around the world have the majority of their undergraduate college education subsidized by the government, and that's not the case in the US. The amount of money we pay is absurd, and youth seeking higher education are being scammed right in front of their eyes. Experiences are what made undergrad great for me, not the unnecessary GE classes that I was forced to pay for in order to get my degree. but I really wish I could've gotten my experiences without shelling out a ridiculous amount of money for them.

TL;DR I think the system itself is okay for the most part even though it's probably too lengthy, but the lack of government subsidies makes it too costly to be really worth it.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Personally I just think it sounds silly to say that you need to go to 4 years of college, learn an entirely different subject, and pay large amounts of money in order to "mature" for med school. It just seems so unnecessary, especially in a nation with a growing student debt problem.

 

[circulus vitios]

All these people saying they'd skip undergrad are alarming. The hell were you doing? Those are without doubt the best years of your life.

Last time I checked, the US has a laundry list of people who want to get their medical education here because of the quality. If you guys are so sure that you want to go into medicine straight out of high school, go to a different country.

Not everyone has the "college experience," just FYI.