Why are US schools structured this way?

[LiveLoveLearn]

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We're talking about maturity. Working a dead-end, crappy job teaches you more about the real world and instills more maturity in a person than does sitting in a class room, screwing around in a volunteer department for 3 hours a week, backpacking across Europe, directing a college club, or whatever pointless garbage the average college student or pre-med does.

This.

 

[circulus vitios]

Only 40% of applicants get admitted and many of those are non-trad so the "average student or pre-med" is not even getting into medical school.

Maybe your plan could be adjusted to require 3 years of military service before or after college, or comparable volunteer service in a health or education setting (like Peace Corps) after college.

Sure, those are also great options. Something where pre-meds have to do real work for which they're held accountable.

 

[Geebeejay]

My mother was a waitress or factory worker for my entire life. My aunt is a manger at grocery store, my uncle is repair man at music store, my sister is a telemarketer. They all have families of which they all support. I was a first generation college graduate, and am anything but naive about the lifestyle of workers that aren't college educated. One of the examples listed was a fast food chain, the others were not - manual labor, tech support, etc.. Saying that anywhere that a person can work in which they have a "shift supervisor" is not a real job is extremely insensitive and misinformed. Lots of people don't go to college and lead very different lives. Acting as if the only legitimate life choice is the one that you made or that of your family and friends is very narrow-minded.

😕 I have a shift supervisor. I also have a boss..... I think you read what I wrote wrong and took it too much in offense. I'll still respond -

Waitresses make TONS of money. Incomparable. I made WAY more than I make now as an NA when I worked in the food industry. I think this is also a great job to use as a stepping stone for medicine.
Repairman is more of a trade. Very high demand, and often very skilled labor
Manager at a grocery store. Far from entry level.
I can't speak much on telemarketers, except I heard they make decent money :/ Don't know much else.

I never said anything about requiring a college degree to live a successful life. But none of these jobs (except maybe telemarketer, I dunno) are entry level. I've never worked in a restaurant where they hire waitresses without prior experience, and I would not trust a repairman with my gibson unless I knew he was reputable.

would any of these jobs build maturity? Yeah! How much? Comparable to college? Debatable, but I'd say so (dunno about telemarketer). Will they prepare you for medical school? Besides maybe waitressing, I'm gonna go with no.

I probably shouldn't have included "physical labor" under horse **** job since these jobs are respectable, afford much responsibility and are difficult. I'm from Boston, a pretty extensively blue-collar city. I've worked very little in such a job, and I definitely valued it.

I was also a first-generation college student, but thanks for the assumptions 🙂

 

[LiveLoveLearn]

😕 I have a shift supervisor..... I think you read what I wrote wrong and took it too much in offense. I'll still respond -

Waitresses make TONS of money. Incomparable. I made WAY more than I make now as an NA when I worked in the food industry. I think this is also a great job to use as a stepping stone for medicine.

A real job with real responsibilities and a real boss, not just a "shift supervisor", will provide much more room to grow. And unfortunately, if you can land a "real job" with just a high school diploma that isn't a niche trade, then you are the far exception.

Your words.

Repairman is more of a trade. Very high demand, and often very skilled labor
Manager at a grocery store. Far from entry level.
I can't speak much on telemarketers, except I heard they make decent money :/ Don't know much else.

I never said anything about requiring a college degree to life a successful life. But none of these jobs (except maybe telemarketer, I dunno) are entry level. I've never worked in a restaurant where they hire waitresses without prior experience, and I would not trust a repairman with my gibson unless I knew he was reputable.

would any of these jobs build maturity? Yeah! How much? Comparable to college? Debatable, but I'd say so (dunno about telemarketer). Will they prepare you for medical school? Besides maybe waitressing, I'm gonna go with no.

I probably shouldn't have included "physical labor" under horse **** job since these jobs are respectable, afford much responsibility and are difficult. I'm from Boston, a pretty extensively blue-collar city. I've worked very little in such a job, and I definitely valued it.

I was also a first-generation college student, but thanks for the assumptions 🙂

3 things: 1. I don't think that the maturity that you glean from a given job is directly proportional to the amount of income you make or whether it is entry-level or not. 2. All of these positions began as entry-level jobs, and at that time, they were still supporting a family. 3. It is the act of having a job (whatever it may be),and fully supporting yourself, rather than being in school and functioning as a pseudo-adult, that would make you more mature and also help to add perspective about what the real cost/benefit relationship is with any career choice.

I'm kind of done with this conversation, but what you said and the way you said it (or at least the way that I read it) was a huge generalization, and I just wanted to point out that it comes off as narrow-minded and pretty condescending for all of the people that do support themselves on jobs of this nature. It is obvious at this point that this is not how you intended it to come off or that I misread it - either way let's stop beating this horse

 

[Geebeejay]

Your words.




3 things: 1. I don't think that the maturity that you glean from a given job is directly proportional to the amount of income you make or whether it is entry-level or not. 2. All of these positions began as entry-level jobs, and at that time, they were still supporting a family. 3. It is the act of having a job (whatever it may be),and fully supporting yourself, rather than being in school and functioning as a pseudo-adult, that would make you more mature and also help to add perspective about what the real cost/benefit relationship is with any career choice.

I'm kind of done with this conversation, but what you said and the way you said it (or at least the way that I read it) was a huge generalization, and I just wanted to point out that it comes off as narrow-minded and pretty condescending for all of the people that do support themselves on jobs of this nature. It is obvious at this point that this is not how you intended it to come off or that I misread it - either way let's stop beating this horse

sorry to have offended you, but we are not talking about entry level positions leading to a respectable career. We are talking about entry level positions as a better alternative to undergraduate education as preparation for medical school. If you want to debate the association of maturity with career choice, then I encourage you to create another thread. I apologize for offending you with a generalization, but I stand my generalization that the jobs I mentioned (though I retract grouping all physical labor together) will provide inadequate preparation and room for maturation for a career in medicine, and often offer little career or personal growth in general. In fact, people who are overqualified often get denied minimum-wage type jobs like the ones I've mentioned because they clearly are seeking more than your typical 16-18 yr old kid who just wants to make some chump change. I cite having WORKED those types of jobs :-/

I have a shift supervisor and a boss. A shift supervisor is not a boss, and working in front of one is not the same as working and answering to a manager or a boss. Shift supervisors do not typically promote, reward, grade or directly discipline staff (except short term discipline). I'm sorry this offends you, but it shouldn't 😕 I never said anything about shift supervisors being inferior, or jobs with shift supervisors being inferior.

 

[LiveLoveLearn]

I have a shift supervisor and a boss. A shift supervisor is not a boss, and working in front of one is not the same as working and answering to a manager or a boss. Shift supervisors do not typically promote, reward, grade or directly discipline staff (except short term discipline). I'm sorry this offends you, but it shouldn't 😕 I never said anything about shift supervisors being inferior, or jobs with shift supervisors being inferior.

I'm not offended, but that doesn't mean that your statement wasn't offensive. And you referred to them as horse**** jobs. . . .in what way is that not calling it inferior? Your general sentiment may not have been offensive, but your language certainly was. Either way, I don't really care

 

[redpanda]

Honestly, I question the maturity of some of my classmates who have gone straight from high school to undergrad to med school because they've never been out of the academic bubble, so I shudder to think of what it would be like having a bunch of 18-20 year olds coming to clinic.

 

[VisionaryTics]

I know this thread is pretty de-railed at this this point, but thought I'd add my two cents.

Modern US medical schools developed as follows:

1. In the 18th-19th centuries, medical schools were completely unregulated and were usually 2-year apprenticeships to local physicians. Some groups of physicians bonded together to create colleges with a formalized curriculum, but on the whole, the state of education was very poor.

2. At the end of the 19th century, Baltimore merchant and philanthropist Johns Hopkins wanted to create the world's greatest medical school. He hired the best physicians in North America to run a new hospital and to design a new type of medical school that educated only the best and brightest. Johns Hopkins was pretty much the first medical school to require an undergraduate degree prior to matriculation. The goal was to educate a new crop of physician-scientists, a cross between the clinical British model and the research-heavy German model of education. A few other top institutions followed suit to compete with Johns Hopkins.

3. In response to the horrid state of medical education in the US, the AMA commissioned the Flexner report in the early 20th century. Flexner's conclusion was that 95% of medical schools were crap, and that medical education should be completely reformed in the model of Johns Hopkins and other elite institutions (2 years of preclinical/2years of clinical, 4 year bachelor's required for admission, etc). This document is the foundation of the modern American medical education system.

 

[Geebeejay]

I'm not offended, but that doesn't mean that your statement wasn't offensive. And you referred to them as horse**** jobs. . . .in what way is that not calling it inferior? Your general sentiment may not have been offensive, but your language certainly was. Either way, I don't really care

a job that makes minimum wage and has little responsibility and little room for growth is a bad job. I used the term horse ****. If you disagree, then I heard MacDonalds is hiring, so please prove me wrong. Have you worked one of the jobs that I am referring to? I have. They are not good jobs. I did not learn very much from them, did not grow very much, and was happy to have worked them because without them I wouldn't have been able to afford anything when I was in high school.

I never said anything about the people that work those jobs except that my shift supervisors were drug addicts and incompetent. Someone needs to do work these jobs! But they are bad jobs, do not afford much opportunity to grow or excel, and do not pay well.

That's my opinion, and you are free to have yours.

Now can we get back to the topic?

 

[jde1223]

Actually, I really hate being in college. When I was leaving high school I wanted to go straight into medical school. I'm a Junior undergraduate now and those thoughts haven't changed - I still wish I could skip university and go straight to med school. To be honest, if 4 years of undergrad wasn't a US requirement I would never have done it. I just haven't had a good college experience and I know there are many people out there who have. I really don't think that's my problem though. Even if I had a good college experience at least I would enjoy it, but I would still want to skip it

From everything I've read, heard and researched the college requirement is supposed to give us a "well-rounded" education and to make certain that we really do want to become doctors. Then there is the BS/MD program that I wish I could have gone to for those who are certain about a commitment to medicine. I don't think you have to be an adult to know what you want to do in life. I do think an 18 year old high school graduate can know for certain what he/she wants to do in life and stick to it. Those required classes that we need for a "well-rounded" education have mostly just been a waste of time and money in my opinion. I hardly learned anything useful. Maybe I don't fully understand this concept of a "well-rounded" education. In my experience, it just means taking classes that have nothing to do with the field you want to study.....and somehow this will be helpful to your field of study?😕 I agree about that critical development that you mentioned, I just doubt its worth all the money we have to put into it. There are quite a few things I would change about undergraduate education here.

I much prefer the UK medical education system and wish I could have gone though that vs the US system. It depends on the person. Some people enjoy college and the US system is perfect for them. Others know what they want to do, don't enjoy college and just want to get on with their lives.

Sorry Urnathok, now I'm just as confused as you about why we need an unrelated Bachelor's degree to become a doctor in the US.

so if ur undergrad was a waste of your time and u could have gone straight to med school from HS- then you were MCAT ready in high school? and would be step 1 ready also? Ur hardcore!

 

[circulus vitios]

so if ur undergrad was a waste of your time and u could have gone straight to med school from HS- then you were MCAT ready in high school? and would be step 1 ready also? Ur hardcore!

Do you have a learning disability?

 

[KnuxNole]

a job that makes minimum wage and has little responsibility and little room for growth is a bad job. I used the term horse ****. If you disagree, then I heard MacDonalds is hiring, so please prove me wrong. Have you worked one of the jobs that I am referring to? I have. They are not good jobs. I did not learn very much from them, did not grow very much, and was happy to have worked them because without them I wouldn't have been able to afford anything when I was in high school.

I never said anything about the people that work those jobs except that my shift supervisors were drug addicts and incompetent. Someone needs to do work these jobs! But they are bad jobs, do not afford much opportunity to grow or excel, and do not pay well.

That's my opinion, and you are free to have yours.

Now can we get back to the topic?

You can learn some stuff working in fast food and/or retail. It might not result in major growth, but it can be decent for a young adult to get exposure working. It is different compared to working in your chosen career(medicine in our case) because you are spending time learning about your profession, and is something you greatly enjoy + plan to do for a long time. Likewise, there are people who enjoy working in retail and fast food. If that's the case, more power to them.

 

[Urnathok]

Modern US medical schools developed as follows:

1. In the 18th-19th centuries, medical schools were completely unregulated and were usually 2-year apprenticeships to local physicians. Some groups of physicians bonded together to create colleges with a formalized curriculum, but on the whole, the state of education was very poor.

2. At the end of the 19th century, Baltimore merchant and philanthropist Johns Hopkins wanted to create the world's greatest medical school. He hired the best physicians in North America to run a new hospital and to design a new type of medical school that educated only the best and brightest. Johns Hopkins was pretty much the first medical school to require an undergraduate degree prior to matriculation. The goal was to educate a new crop of physician-scientists, a cross between the clinical British model and the research-heavy German model of education. A few other top institutions followed suit to compete with Johns Hopkins.

3. In response to the horrid state of medical education in the US, the AMA commissioned the Flexner report in the early 20th century. Flexner's conclusion was that 95% of medical schools were crap, and that medical education should be completely reformed in the model of Johns Hopkins and other elite institutions (2 years of preclinical/2years of clinical, 4 year bachelor's required for admission, etc). This document is the foundation of the modern American medical education system.

Also worth noting that Flexner himself was a Johns Hopkins graduate. Thanks for bringing that up, I'd like to look into that report when I get the chance.

Go, history.

 

[LizzyM]

I think that any job where you can learn about human nature, where you can learn about how to deal with people, where you can learn about how to work as a member of a team, where you can learn about people who are different than yourself, is a valuable job for someone who would like to eventually go into medicine.

I had a student (MD) who worked on a road paving crerw for a summer in college and I had a boss (MD) who worked summers in construction (although his dad was a doc). Good jobs that gave them an idea of what it is to be a blue collar worker and helped them relate to the large proportion of Americans who are blue collar.

 

[jde1223]

Do you have a learning disability?

hmmm

 

[VisionaryTics]

are you a fool? it was a simple question friend-o, would you have a been MCAT ready out of high school? If so you must have went to an awesome high school! they didn't even have physics in my high school. so lose the attitude cheeky fellow!

bye

 

[sliceofbread136]

are you a ******* ing a s s hole? it was a simple question bitch, would you have a been MCAT ready out of high school? If so you must have went to an awesome high school! they didn't even have physics in my high school. so lose the attitude u ******* ing c u n t!

Lol. I guess it's time for the ban!

 

[circulus vitios]

(stuff)

Wow, calm down and edit your post before you get banned. I was just kidding. It's kind of implied that a major change in pre-med curriculum would be accompanied with a major change in standardized pre-med examinations.

 

[LizzyM]

Please, instead of quoting bad language, report it or ignore it. Now we're stuck with it. unless you edit your posts Visionary Tics and Sliceofbread136.

 

[sliceofbread136]

I think that any job where you can learn about human nature, where you can learn about how to deal with people, where you can learn about how to work as a member of a team, where you can learn about people who are different than yourself, is a valuable job for someone who would like to eventually go into medicine.

I had a student (MD) who worked on a road paving crerw for a summer in college and I had a boss (MD) who worked summers in construction (although his dad was a doc). Good jobs that gave them an idea of what it is to be a blue collar worker and helped them relate to the large proportion of Americans who are blue collar.

Definitely! I think I gained more from being a camp counselor for little kids than I did from the rest of my undergraduate education. Honestly if I could trade 4 years of college for 4 years of doing odd jobs with children and still go to med school I would definitely do it.

 

[circulus vitios]

I had a student (MD) who worked on a road paving crerw for a summer in college and I had a boss (MD) who worked summers in construction (although his dad was a doc). Good jobs that gave them an idea of what it is to be a blue collar worker and helped them relate to the large proportion of Americans who are blue collar.

When I was shadowing I saw so many physicians make unrealistic suggestions or comments to patients because they had no idea what it was like to work in a factory or on a farm.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Please, instead of quoting bad language, report it or ignore it. Now we're stuck with it. unless you edit your posts Visionary Tics and Sliceofbread136.

You're right. I'll edit my post after the mods take appropriate action since he edited his post in an attempt to hide it.

 

[jde1223]

is there no standardized test in the UK? if not how do they measure or predict who will be the most successful? I am not saying that any system is superior (US/UK) but does the UK have a higher attrition rate than US Schools or Less?

 

[Pons Asinorum]

is there no standardized test in the UK? if not how do they measure or predict who will be the most successful? I am not saying that any system is superior (US/UK) but does the UK have a higher attrition rate than US Schools or Less?

I'm pretty sure no one is really feeling up to matching wits with you after your impressive display of censoring-algorithm avoidance. Best of luck friend-o.

 

[jde1223]

ok so since I am getting banned anyway, some of you are whiny female dogs (slang naughty word) put on your big boy pants and man up, like you never heard a bad word or overreacted to someone insulting you! pot calling the kettle black! Oh my god I swore! oh no! sorry I offended your delicate sensibilities! I'm out! good luck to you perfect people who have never gotten angry or cursed at some one!

 

[circulus vitios]

(stuff)

Edit your post and they'll probably just give you a warning. I hope you don't get banned. I like people who are blunt.

 

[sliceofbread136]

ok so since I am getting banned anyway, some of you are whiny female dogs (slang naughty word) put on your big boy pants and man up, like you never heard a bad word or overreacted to someone insulting you! pot calling the kettle black! Oh my god I swore! oh no! sorry I offended your delicate sensibilities! I'm out! good luck to you perfect people who have never gotten angry or cursed at some one!

Ya man I totally agree. I told this to my interviewer when I did the same thing at a med school interview.

 

[Medstart108]

is there no standardized test in the UK? if not how do they measure or predict who will be the most successful? I am not saying that any system is superior (US/UK) but does the UK have a higher attrition rate than US Schools or Less?

There is. There is the UKCAT and the BMAT for medical school admissions in the UK.

UK attrition rate is actually very low probably slightly higher than the US. Its only maybe 2-3/150 a year.

It is quite common for wanna be medics (as they call them in the UK) to take a gap year before going into medical school.

 

[KnuxNole]

ok so since I am getting banned anyway, some of you are whiny female dogs (slang naughty word) put on your big boy pants and man up, like you never heard a bad word or overreacted to someone insulting you! pot calling the kettle black! Oh my god I swore! oh no! sorry I offended your delicate sensibilities! I'm out! good luck to you perfect people who have never gotten angry or cursed at some one!

There is no reason to ever curse at someone. Usually, it's from people who don't know what else to say but throw insults out of anger instead of responding back in a meaningful way. There are classier ways to settle disputes. Overreacting to an insult isn't necessary. In rotations, when the surgeons ask you if you have a learning disability, you would never think about cursing even once. Instead, saying something silly back could provide a few laughs 😛

It's common knowledge that those words are banned from forums. Spacing the letters out to express it seems kinda tacky.

 

[earl1977]

i'm a long time observer but this post inspired me to become a member! yeah bro settle down a little. But guys give the guy a little break, maybe he is having a bad day, or has PTSD and angers easy( I have a friend who was in the war and angers easily if you insult him but otherwise is the nicest guy). But seriously bro you should learn to control those emotions before you swear at an adcom or like knuxnole said lose it at a surgeon!

 

[The Beyonder]

People are stating different reasons for disliking the American system, but by far the strongest argument is the cost of undergrad. I personally loved those 4 years and would definitely say that they are the best I ever had, but if you told me that I could have gone straight to medical school and saved thousands of dollars then I would definitely have to think about it.

Undergrad helps us mature, no doubt, and it comes with its share of amazing experiences for most of us, but it's way too expensive. Our friendly neighbors in Canada as well as many other countries around the world have the majority of their undergraduate college education subsidized by the government, and that's not the case in the US. The amount of money we pay is absurd, and youth seeking higher education are being scammed right in front of their eyes. Experiences are what made undergrad great for me, not the unnecessary GE classes that I was forced to pay for in order to get my degree. but I really wish I could've gotten my experiences without shelling out a ridiculous amount of money for them.

TL;DR I think the system itself is okay for the most part even though it's probably too lengthy, but the lack of government subsidies makes it too costly to be really worth it.

Fair point. I think everyone agrees that undergrad is to expensive. I still don't think there is a better alternative for screening people for the medical profession.