Why are US schools structured this way?

[circulus vitios]

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lol monumental waste of time? Dude, you got a 29 on your MCAT. Maybe it was a monumental waste of time because you actually wasted it instead of making the most out of it.

You're implying that a college environment is useful. I learned about real life and how the world works through a job, not ladling soup for hobos, organizing blood drives, or sitting on the board of directors of an inconsequential college club. College lets you grow outside the classroom? Sure thing bud. Did the Dean of your undergrad pay you to say that?

 

[circulus vitios]

got into a top 20 without soup-ladling or being part of a ****ty college club. sorry buddy.

getting into med school these days is all about being unique and having the intellectual capacity to succeed at something that not everyone can do (all while having great academics). It's this characteristic that lays the foundation for being not just a doctor, but a leader.

you unfortunately have neither ---> poor ECs and mediocre academics. sorry man, i'm just being real with you. you have a pretty bitter and ****ty attitude.

What do my ECs have anything to do with the inherent worth of a 4 year degree?

 

[ToldYouSo]

got into a top 20 without soup-ladling or being part of a ****ty college club. sorry buddy.

getting into med school these days is all about being unique and having the intellectual capacity to succeed at something that not everyone can do (all while having great academics). It's this characteristic that lays the foundation for being not just a doctor, but a leader.

you unfortunately have neither ---> poor ECs and mediocre academics. sorry man, i'm just being real with you. you have a pretty bitter and ****ty attitude.

:troll:

 

[leon sandcastle]

lol monumental waste of time? Dude, you got a 29 on your MCAT. Maybe it was a monumental waste of time because you actually wasted it instead of making the most out of it.


Secondly, look at your EC's

"50-100 hours volunteering
50-100 hours shadowing
Few semesters peer tutoring
Worked 20 hours/week all through school (non-medical)
Worked full time in summers (non-medical)
No research experience
Non-URM; first-gen college student; born, raised, went to college in rural area"

Are you ****ting me? Talk about incredibly sub-par ECs. Instead of wasting your time, maybe you ought to have done something substantive, not just for medical school, but because college affords you the opportunity to grow OUTSIDE of the classroom, whereas med school really doesn't.

I'm glad you learned how to make personal attacks as part of your counter arguments in your years of undergrad.

 

[circulus vitios]

I wouldn't say its a personal attack. that implies i am offended.

i'm just stating the obvious

I'm not butthurt about your weak attacks, but what do my extracurriculars have to do with the value of a college degree? You're coming off as a real *****.

 

[Geebeejay]

At what age would you think that it's appropriate for someone to treat you in a medical fashion? Have we matured that much in undergrad? Personally I would prefer to have the chance to enroll in medical school and actually learn medicine for a few years to really decide whether medicine is a career for me. I think a lot of people really make a leap of faith and say they love medicine when their only "experiences" with medicine are stocking ER patient rooms and making polite small talk with doctors.

Uh yes? Is it really so hard to believe that 4 years away from mommy and daddy's silver spoon and golden checkbook might actually be a way to grow and mature? As well as academics, undergrad serves as the first time you actually have to fight your own battles, solve your own problems and build your own relationships.

Unfortunately, hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt stand between you and "learning medicine for a few years to help decide whether medicine is a career for" you. There are <20000 medical school spots every year, and they aren't gonna waste one on someone who just wants to dip his toes in the water and accumulate debt that he may or may not ever be able to pay back.

College was an incredible waste of time and money. My 'maturing' was done outside of class and I sure as hell didn't need to spend $30k on a worthless bachelors degree to get there. If you 'matured' in college then I feel bad for you because any personal growth you experienced was derived from a useless and artificial environment.

The US needs to cut out the bull**** and make a BS-MD or MBBS program the standard for medical education. There is no reason for us to waste 4 years of our lives and go tens of thousands of dollars in debt before we even start our medical education.

I feel bad for people that believe maturation and growth that occurs in the late teens and early twenties of a person's life revolve solely around collegiate, academic and campus life, and I feel even worse for people who think retrospectively that the time spent in these years was a complete waste.

 

[The Beyonder]

 

[LizzyM]

Ok, let's establish LizzyM's College of Medicine. We'll accept students right out of HS provided that they've taken and scored at least a 5 in AP Chem, AP Biology and AP Physics. They'll need an ACT of 26 or higher or an SAT of 1400 or higher (only verbal and quant sections). The first 2 years will be online and we can admit thousands.

However, the grading in first year will be curved so that at least 25% flunk out in the first year and at least 25% of the original pool flunk out in the second year (in other words, at least33% of those who survive the first year). Anyone who does not pass Step 1 on the first try will be dismissed. We'll flunk out at least 25% after the clinical clerkship.

Oh, and there is no guarantee you'll get a residency when you graduate... in fact it will be cut-throat to land a spot in residency.

Does this sound like a good plan?

In the US system, we cull the herd in undergrad and admit <50% of all applicants who have succeeded to the point of making an application. But >95% who start medical school see it through to graduation and >90% of all US grads get residencies. Do we want to turn this upside down and put all the attrition in the medical school side?

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Uh yes? Is it really so hard to believe that 4 years away from mommy and daddy's silver spoon and golden checkbook might actually be a way to grow and mature? As well as academics, undergrad serves as the first time you actually have to fight your own battles, solve your own problems and build your own relationships.

Unfortunately, hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt stand between you and "learning medicine for a few years to help decide whether medicine is a career for" you. There are <20000 medical school spots every year, and they aren't gonna waste one on someone who just wants to dip his toes in the water and accumulate debt that he may or may not ever be able to pay back.

I don't think moving to college automatically makes "silver spoons and golden checkbooks" disappear into thin air...

 

[circulus vitios]

I don't think moving to college automatically makes "silver spoons and golden checkbooks" disappear into thin air...

What are you talking about? I learned so much about budgeting when I had to cash dad's checks so I could pay for rent. Being in the pre-med club taught me about working in a team, and screwing around in my PI's lab taught me what it was like to be held responsible for results! I experienced so much personal growth thanks to college and I'm a mature adult because of it.

 

[Doctor Strange]

Ok, let's establish LizzyM's College of Medicine. We'll accept students right out of HS provided that they've taken and scored at least a 5 in AP Chem, AP Biology and AP Physics. They'll need an ACT of 26 or higher or an SAT of 1400 or higher (only verbal and quant sections). The first 2 years will be online and we can admit thousands.

However, the grading in first year will be curved so that at least 25% flunk out in the first year and at least 25% of the original pool flunk out in the second year (in other words, at least33% of those who survive the first year). Anyone who does not pass Step 1 on the first try will be dismissed. We'll flunk out at least 25% after the clinical clerkship.

Oh, and there is no guarantee you'll get a residency when you graduate... in fact it will be cut-throat to land a spot in residency.

Does this sound like a good plan?

In the US system, we cull the herd in undergrad and admit <50% of all applicants who have succeeded to the point of making an application. But >95% who start medical school see it through to graduation and >90% of all US grads get residencies. Do we want to turn this upside down and put all the attrition in the medical school side?

👍

 

[Narmerguy]

What are you talking about? I learned so much about budgeting when I had to cash dad's checks so I could pay for rent. Being in the pre-med club taught me about working in a team, and screwing around in my PI's lab taught me what it was like to be held responsible for results! I experienced so much personal growth thanks to college and I'm a mature adult because of it.

At this point, it shouldn't be hard for you to understand that your experiences (or lack thereof) are unique to you and may not be reflective of the experiences others have. Our system acknowledges and respects this. Whether or not you ultimately have experiences in college that are formative, it is important that our system continues to protect the time and space needed for us to have the opportunity to have those experiences.

 

[KnuxNole]

Personally I just think it sounds silly to say that you need to go to 4 years of college, learn an entirely different subject, and pay large amounts of money in order to "mature" for med school. It just seems so unnecessary, especially in a nation with a growing student debt problem.

You don't necessarily have to go to college to mature. People who get jobs out of high school and go on their own have time to mature as well. The thing is, an 18 year old is vastly different compared to a 22 year old. It may only seem like 4 years, but there is a difference. The maturity part has nothing to do with going to a school and learning a subject. BS/MD programs are combined because they can't send a kid directly to med school at 18.

In addition, I know that there are other countries that have med school that starts younger. However, their school system is WAY different. They'd probably burst out laughing at our high school educational system.

Hopefully med school would alleviate those who found undergrad to be a waste.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

You don't necessarily have to go to college to mature. People who get jobs out of high school and go on their own have time to mature as well. The thing is, an 18 year old is vastly different compared to a 22 year old. It may only seem like 4 years, but there is a difference. The maturity part has nothing to do with going to a school and learning a subject. BS/MD programs are combined because they can't send a kid directly to med school at 18.

In addition, I know that there are other countries that have med school that starts younger. However, their school system is WAY different. They'd probably burst out laughing at our high school educational system.

Right, there's really nothing special about college in particular, it's just the fact that you're older. You could go work on an oil rig for 4 years and still be more "mature" at the end than you were starting out.

It can also help with your own comfort as well. I have a hard enough time doing sexual counseling with 50 year old men at 23...I can only imagine how stupid I'd look doing it as a 19 year old.

 

[Perrotfish]

nvm

 

[circulus vitios]

At this point, it shouldn't be hard for you to understand that your experiences (or lack thereof) are unique to you and may not be reflective of the experiences others have. Our system acknowledges and respects this. Whether or not you ultimately have experiences in college that are formative, it is important that our system continues to protect the time and space needed for us to have the opportunity to have those experiences.

Offer an alternative pathway with 2 year associates degrees that cover the standard pre-med curriclum. Require all applicants, both in the traditional 4 year and 2 year programs, to have at least 2 years of full-time work experience. Applicants will be more mature and those who choose the 2 year pathway will enter with far less debt.

 

[Geebeejay]

I don't think moving to college automatically makes "silver spoons and golden checkbooks" disappear into thin air...

But at least gives you the opportunity to grow. Whether or not someone chooses to "do it wrong" and continue sucking on the teet isn't my problem. Not all people who go to college mature, but it provides that opportunity. Most people are never truly independent before they move out, how could they possibly be ready to take care of others before they've learned to take care of themselves?

Right, there's really nothing special about college in particular, it's just the fact that you're older. You could go work on an oil rig for 4 years and still be more "mature" at the end than you were starting out.

Sit in an ED waiting room for an hour and tell me that level of maturity is only proportional to age. Just because you're older does not mean you've grown or become more mature. I do agree that after 4 years in an oil rig you'd be more mature, that's some demanding work.

 

[Geebeejay]

Offer an alternative pathway with 2 year associates degrees that cover the standard pre-med curriclum. Require all applicants, both in the traditional 4 year and 2 year programs, to have at least 2 years of full-time work experience. Applicants will be more mature and those who choose the 2 year pathway will enter with far less debt.

full time work experience doing what exactly? Delivering pizzas? Bussing tables? Cashier at Dunkin Donuts? Have you ever worked a job like this? If you have, there's no way you would consider this real employment.

Lest you forget, the respectable job market doesn't exactly have open arms for young inexperienced americans without college degrees. Hell it's not really friendly to young professional with college degrees. And internships aren't going to want you instead of the millions of college students nationwide.

What are you talking about? I learned so much about budgeting when I had to cash dad's checks so I could pay for rent. Being in the pre-med club taught me about working in a team, and screwing around in my PI's lab taught me what it was like to be held responsible for results! I experienced so much personal growth thanks to college and I'm a mature adult because of it.

Just because you didn't pay your own rent, and just because you wasted your time diddling around in the useless premed club struggling to check boxes doesn't mean that's the way I or anyone else spent their undergrad.

 

[circulus vitios]

full time work experience doing what exactly? Delivering pizzas? Bussing tables? Cashier at Dunkin Donuts? Have you ever worked a job like this? If you have, there's no way you would consider this real employment.

Lest you forget, the respectable job market doesn't exactly have open arms for young inexperienced americans without college degrees. Hell it's not really friendly to young professional with college degrees. And internships aren't going to want you instead of the millions of college students nationwide.

Anything that sucks horribly: fast food, help desk/tech support, any type of physical labor. If you can't make it through 2 years of crap work, how do you expect to make it through 3+ years of residency while waking up at 4 am, pulling night float, going on-call, working 60-80 hours a week, etc?

My parents didn't pay my rent and I wasn't in pre-med clubs.

 

[jr93]

Have any of you actually talked to a chinese or japanese american science worker about their progression through school? In China, a student's talents are recognized early and they are pushed heavily in that direction while leaving out teaching the other fields so kids that are good at science tend to have little to no exposure to humanities/liberal arts fields. I know many kids that are this way and do not like the way they were taught. They end up being very good at what they do but often know that they missed out on a lot of life experiences that they would've had in the USA. In Japan, kids are quickly classified by tests and fall out of school as they cannot pass increasing levels of study. This is why Asians are ORM's in most fields...not because Asians are smarter but because they have already been thinned out and the ones that make it are very smart and then study abroad in places like the USA. Smart parents then have smart kids in the USA, and so on.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

But at least gives you the opportunity to grow. Whether or not someone chooses to "do it wrong" and continue sucking on the teet isn't my problem. Not all people who go to college mature, but it provides that opportunity. Most people are never truly independent before they move out, how could they possibly be ready to take care of others before they've learned to take care of themselves?



Sit in an ED waiting room for an hour and tell me that level of maturity is only proportional to age. Just because you're older does not mean you've grown or become more mature. I do agree that after 4 years in an oil rig you'd be more mature, that's some demanding work.

Yo thanks I've definitely never been in an ED for over an hour before. I'm not saying all 22 year olds are more mature than all 18 year olds. My point is that there's nothing special about "maturing in college" and anybody who thinks that way is...well in college. In fact, you could well argue that prevalent college atmosphere and long length of schooling makes young adults LESS mature as a whole (and that has been argued by many a sociologist). My parents had two kids by the time they were my age but my dad didn't finish college until I was about 6 years old while slinging boxes at UPS. I'm pretty sure that makes them a bit more mature than I am.

Drop thousands a year to get the "opportunity to grow"? I mean, I can at least see the perspective of those people saying that college is so expensive now that they'd appreciate being able to shave off a few years.

 

[jr93]

Yo thanks I've definitely never been in an ED for over an hour before. I'm not saying all 22 year olds are more mature than all 18 year olds. My point is that there's nothing special about "maturing in college" and anybody who thinks that way is...well in college. In fact, you could well argue that prevalent college atmosphere and long length of schooling makes young adults LESS mature as a whole (and that has been argued by many a sociologist). My parents had two kids by the time they were my age but my dad didn't finish college until I was about 6 years old while slinging boxes at UPS. I'm pretty sure that makes them a bit more mature than I am.

Drop thousands a year to get the "opportunity to grow"? I mean, I can at least see the perspective of those people saying that college is so expensive now that they'd appreciate being able to shave off a few years.

Your pre-med biology courses will tell you that your brain isn't matured until ~25.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Your pre-med biology courses will tell you that your brain isn't matured until ~25.

And your point is...?

 

[circulus vitios]

My point is that there's nothing special about "maturing in college" and anybody who thinks that way is...well in college.

Exactly.

 

[Geebeejay]

Anything that sucks horribly: fast food, help desk/tech support, any type of physical labor. If you can't make it through 2 years of crap work, how do you expect to make it through 3+ years of residency while waking up at 4 am, pulling night float, going on-call, working 60-80 hours a week, etc?

My parents didn't pay my rent and I wasn't in pre-med clubs.

Those are horse**** jobs that don't provide any real world skills, and has nothing to do with studying medicine or working on a medical floor. When I worked jobs like these I usually left work for a few hours, blazed, and came back, and if my supervisor wasn't baked out of his mind and actually noticed, he didn't care as long as I didn't forget to punch out and cause him more paperwork.

A real job with real responsibilities and a real boss, not just a "shift supervisor", will provide much more room to grow. And unfortunately, if you can land a "real job" with just a high school diploma that isn't a niche trade, then you are the far exception.

Yo thanks I've definitely never been in an ED for over an hour before. I'm not saying all 22 year olds are more mature than all 18 year olds. My point is that there's nothing special about "maturing in college" and anybody who thinks that way is...well in college. In fact, you could well argue that prevalent college atmosphere and long length of schooling makes young adults LESS mature as a whole (and that has been argued by many a sociologist). My parents had two kids by the time they were my age but my dad didn't finish college until I was about 6 years old while slinging boxes at UPS. I'm pretty sure that makes them a bit more mature than I am.

Drop thousands a year to get the "opportunity to grow"? I mean, I can at least see the perspective of those people saying that college is so expensive now that they'd appreciate being able to shave off a few years.

I understand your point and I agree that college is likely not the best way to gain maturity. (I am long out of college fyi). But it's certainly different than others, and certainly offers the opportunity to grow. The money youre dumping in is obviously not just to grow, but why not have a degree to go with it?

I dunno about you, but my high school did not offer classes that were anywhere close to as challenging as upper level undergrad courses, so I don't see why academic growth is also considered irrelevant here.

I understand you have likely been in an ED, but unless you have prior ED experience before medical school you have not sat in an ED waiting room for over an hour and observed how a triage nurse pretty much baby sits a room full of full grown adults for 12 hour shifts. This is irrelevant to the other discussion, but I wouldn't be a legitimate SDNer to not follow up on every argument 🙂

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

I understand you have likely been in an ED, but unless you have prior ED experience before medical school you have not sat in an ED waiting room for over an hour an observed. This is irrelevant to the other discussion, but I wouldn't be a legitimate SDNer to not follow up on every argument 🙂

1) I have no idea what this has to do with anything. The ED isn't the only place people don't act their age.
2) I have been in an ED waiting room for a significant amount of time as a patient. Although I'm sure you've been sitting around in one longer as a nursing assistant. You know what they say about assumptions though.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Ok, let's establish LizzyM's College of Medicine. We'll accept students right out of HS provided that they've taken and scored at least a 5 in AP Chem, AP Biology and AP Physics. They'll need an ACT of 26 or higher or an SAT of 1400 or higher (only verbal and quant sections). The first 2 years will be online and we can admit thousands.

However, the grading in first year will be curved so that at least 25% flunk out in the first year and at least 25% of the original pool flunk out in the second year (in other words, at least33% of those who survive the first year). Anyone who does not pass Step 1 on the first try will be dismissed. We'll flunk out at least 25% after the clinical clerkship.

Oh, and there is no guarantee you'll get a residency when you graduate... in fact it will be cut-throat to land a spot in residency.

Does this sound like a good plan?

In the US system, we cull the herd in undergrad and admit <50% of all applicants who have succeeded to the point of making an application. But >95% who start medical school see it through to graduation and >90% of all US grads get residencies. Do we want to turn this upside down and put all the attrition in the medical school side?

Why couldn't you just make a different version of the mcat and have admissions similar to how they are now but coming out of high school instead of college? Or you could have 2 year premed programs and you apply after the program? It could be pretty much the same but at a different time.

 

[circulus vitios]

Those are horse**** jobs that don't provide any real world skills, and has nothing to do with studying medicine or working on a medical floor. When I worked jobs like these I usually left work for a few hours, blazed, and came back, and if my supervisor wasn't baked out of his mind and actually noticed, he didn't care as long as I didn't forget to punch out and cause him more paperwork.

Dealing with angry and unpleasant people isn't a real world skill? Having the mental fortitude to roll out and bed, show up, and excel at a job you hate isn't a real world skill? Man, you sound like a terrible employee. If you can't deal with some idiotic minimum wage crap job, how do you expect to have the willpower to do the crap jobs in medicine? You're going to spend hours every day on non-clinical work like screwing around with paper work, following up on labs, updating patient charts, etc. The clinical work isn't all roses, either. Plenty of angry and emotional people, or nasty jobs like pelvic exams on 400 pounders with yeast infections.

 

[Geebeejay]

1) I have no idea what this has to do with anything. The ED isn't the only place people don't act their age.
2) I have been in an ED waiting room for a significant amount of time as a patient. Although I'm sure you've been sitting around in one longer as a nursing assistant. You know what they say about assumptions though.

I think one example is enough. My point is many people never mature, so it doesn't really have that much to do with age. Age only offers more time to experience more things, and these experiences foster maturity. Without these experience the only thing that matures is your skin, eyes and sex organs.

Dealing with angry and unpleasant people isn't a real world skill? Having the mental fortitude to roll out and bed, show up, and excel at a job you hate isn't a real world skill? Man, you sound like a terrible employee. If you can't deal with some idiotic minimum wage crap job, how do you expect to have the willpower to do the crap jobs in medicine? You're going to spend hours every day on non-clinical work like screwing around with paper work, following up on labs, updating patient charts, etc. The clinical work isn't all roses, either. Plenty of angry and emotional people, or nasty jobs like pelvic exams on 400 pounders with yeast infections.

I'm aware. You deal with unpleasant and angry people at just about any job you will work, this is not limited to fast food and tech support.....or medicine for that matter. The difference is that fast food and tech support are not real jobs. There are literally hours sometimes where there is no work to be done. And when there is work it is mindless ....how do you expect to excel here? Fastest burger bagger ever? Sexiest tech voice ever?

 

[Pons Asinorum]

Medical admissions, just like every other field ever, uses college as a marker of social signaling and herd-culling, not for the intensive intellectual growth and maturity it foments. Medicine isn't special in the uselessness of college if you just look at it as career skills preparation. It is incredibly useful for filtering out idiots and stratifying what's left behind. This happens everywhere. Swing by the room full of junior analysts busting their balls at Goldman and ask them if their bachelors in management from Yale gave them the maturity or skills to do their job. Engineering might be slightly different, but even there UG is really just a marker for aptitude towards their specific flavor of on the job training. UG isn't vital to the process, but there has to be some process to separate wheat from chaff, as Lizzy pointed out.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Medical admissions, just like every other field ever, uses college as a marker of social signaling and herd-culling, not for the intensive intellectual growth and maturity it foments. Medicine isn't special in the uselessness of college if you just look at it as career skills preparation. It is incredibly useful for filtering out idiots and stratifying what's left behind. This happens everywhere. Swing by the room full of junior analysts busting their balls at Goldman and ask them if their bachelors in management from Yale gave them the maturity or skills to do their job. Engineering might be slightly different, but even there UG is really just a marker for aptitude towards their specific flavor of on the job training. UG isn't vital to the process, but there has to be some process to separate wheat from chaff, as Lizzy pointed out.

But that can be done out of high school just like the UK. It isn't as good a test as college would be, but I don't think that the price of 4 years of college is worth it for just a better test.

 

[Kahreek]

I'd say it is nice to be twenty and in third year of med school.

 

[Geebeejay]

Medical admissions, just like every other field ever, uses college as a marker of social signaling and herd-culling, not for the intensive intellectual growth and maturity it foments. Medicine isn't special in the uselessness of college if you just look at it as career skills preparation. It is incredibly useful for filtering out idiots and stratifying what's left behind. This happens everywhere. Swing by the room full of junior analysts busting their balls at Goldman and ask them if their bachelors in management from Yale gave them the maturity or skills to do their job. Engineering might be slightly different, but even there UG is really just a marker for aptitude towards their specific flavor of on the job training. UG isn't vital to the process, but there has to be some process to separate wheat from chaff, as Lizzy pointed out.

But that can be done out of high school just like the UK. It isn't as good a test as college would be, but I don't think that the price of 4 years of college is worth it for just a better test.

Agreed with pons. If UG is a bad way to gauge peoples' readiness or aptitude for medicine, then high school is thousands of times worse. High school accreditation is much more lax than college accreditation, and teachers can come from anywhere and god-knows what level of academic background. Now families will waste money on private high school instead of private undergrad, and those too poor to afford private high school will likely not make it anymore. And I think we all know private high school is even more of a joke than undergrad, and medical schools overrun with trust-fund babies and yuppies from private schools sounds absolutely awful....

 

[Pons Asinorum]

But that can be done out of high school just like the UK. It isn't as good a test as college would be, but I don't think that the price of 4 years of college is worth it for just a better test.

Of course as an input into the system we shouldn't think it ideal. But medical school adcomms think that it's pretty snazzy, since they basically all need some amount of college to consider you in any capacity as an applicant. I'm not sure if there is a law or licensing requirement regarding how much UG work medical students have to have completed, but if the AAMC and their member programs felt differently, I'm sure they could make it happen. They don't though. There are many ideas floating around to decrease the time to MD. Taking kids straight out of HS isn't one under serious consideration, probably because that time spent baking in undergraduate means that you are able to select a medical school class with fewer surprise idiots who can't make it through.

 

[Omppu27]

+1

Furthermore, the problem with a system that goes straight to medical school from high school is you have to know what you want to do when you are 16-18 years old. How many people in that age group are mature enough to make that type of decision? A lot of people decide to go into medicine or decide not to go into medicine during college. Those are the formative years in your development and maturity. In addition, such a system greatly disadvantages low-income students. How many people from struggling public high schools would have the ability to enter medical school straight out of school? Undergrad serves as an equalizer. It creates a uniform blanket of opportunity and the pre-med requirements make sure everyone has the appropriate foundation.

This is exactly my problem with BS/MD programs. Especially when there requirements to complete the undergrad portion of the program are so weak...

 

[Pons Asinorum]

I'd say it is nice to be twenty and in third year of med school.

I'd say that it's nice to be 35 and in the 3rd year of medical school too. But to each their own 🙂

 

[Geebeejay]

Of course as an input into the system we shouldn't think it ideal. But medical school adcomms think that it's pretty snazzy, since they basically all need some amount of college to consider you in any capacity as an applicant. I'm not sure if there is a law or licensing requirement regarding how much UG work medical students have to have completed, but if the AAMC and their member programs felt differently, I'm sure they could make it happen. They don't though. There are many ideas floating around to decrease the time to MD. Taking kids straight out of HS isn't one under serious consideration, probably because that time spent baking in undergraduate means that you are able to select a medical school class with fewer surprise idiots who can't make it through.

And wouldn't adcoms still prefer students who has/will have finished their bachelor's degree? Wouldn't this make them more competitive? Why would a medical school select someone who only has an associates or less in comparison?

 

[circulus vitios]

I'm aware. You deal with unpleasant and angry people at just about any job you will work, this is not limited to fast food and tech support.....or medicine for that matter. The difference is that fast food and tech support are not real jobs. There are literally hours sometimes where there is no work to be done. And when there is work it is mindless ....how do you expect to excel here? Fastest burger bagger ever? Sexiest tech voice ever?

Boredom is also a large part of the real world. I always found more work when I was "done with all of my work," but that's just me.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

And wouldn't adcoms still prefer students who has/will have finished their bachelor's degree? Wouldn't this make them more competitive? Why would a medical school select someone who only has an associates or less in comparison?

I think they would, if for nothing else than they have more data with which to decide if the applicant is a sure thing to make it through. Medical schools aren't in the habit of admitting students that they think maybe can make it, maybe can't, but lets just give them and chance and find out two years from now. Everything that can go into your app that makes you look more like a sure thing (intellect, energy, passion, maturity, etc) will only improve it.

 

[jr93]

Why not just start at age 10? Everyone is arguing about the location of a line. Just because one person could've done it at 17 doesn't mean you make that the standard. As said before, college weeds people out and I saw someone mentioned engineering. Engineering is probably the worst in that college doesn't relate well to work but it tries to make you think a certain way and it also loads you with stress, etc. to make sure you can handle once you're in the workforce. Like I said, as med students and pre-meds, we should all know that the brain doesn't mature anatomically until ~25 so even if you think you have the world on lockdown at 22, you'll likely think otherwise at 30 and 40 and 50 and so on until dementia sets in. Thinking otherwise is pretty arrogant. Sure the line could be moved here and there and no one thinks our education system is perfect but some of you are being ridiculous. IMO, you shouldn't just chase a career or money because you can. You'll have plenty of time for that. You're only 18-25 once. Live it up. Have you ever met or seen these kids that have careers master's degrees at 18? I personally wouldn't change places with them. Being 14 to 21 was fun.

 

[Kahreek]

i'd say most people dont decide if they want to become physicians or not during college, But rather they find if they are able to.
This might also affect competitiveness. In europe the average resident salary is like 18-25k euros. An attending rarely makes more than 50k or 60k, unless they own a private practice.

 

[Geebeejay]

Boredom is also a large part of the real world. I always found more work when I was "done with all of my work," but that's just me.

Lol I think you're trying a little too hard to stretch this medical school / cashier comparison. Boredom being a part of the real world does not make low skilled, low responsibility, minimum wage jobs like fast-food cashier, store clerk, tech support, etc. valuable real-world experience that will have any use in a medical career.

 

[LiveLoveLearn]

I feel like there are really 2 (maybe even 3) different questions being discussed here:

1. Should students be admitted to medical school directly from high school?

I personally disagree with this type of system for several reasons:

1. • Did you see how many "pre-meds" were at your UG Freshman year? All of those people would have applied to medical school, likely leading to a scenario very much like the "LizzyM SOM" described above.
   • Currently, medical schools have a great deal of information from which to deem who the best applicants are (ECs, grades, MCAT, volunteering, etc.). What do you get from a High School student? Grades, ACT/SAT, and ECs - all of which are influenced by the socioeconomic status of the applicant's parents. Kids that go to super-rural or inner city schools with sub-par education will likely underperfom on standardized tests. Additionally, many of these schools have very minimal extra curricular activities, and for applicants from low income or unsupportive families, they may not have been permitted to engage in available ECs (cost to participate, transportation to events, etc.).
   • At the point that you graduate from High School, you have spent your entire life living in situations largely decided upon by your parents. Many of your morals, ideas and behaviors will be based on that. Many people change a great deal once they are independent. Since the career of being a physician is one that comes with a great deal of social responsibility, I think that it is both appropriate and fair to allow time for people to mature into their own beliefs before offering admittance into medical school.
   • There are many classes not covered in High School that are pre-reqs for medical school, such as more advanced chemistry and biology, organic, etc. While some of these are available at some good public schools, they are not at many.

2. Not specific to medical school requirements, is the U.S. system to require 2 years of general education courses, regardless of the field which a person is pursuing worth while?

It is said that these are required because someone that holds a BA or BS should be a well-rounded individual. While this is part of the reasoning, I personally think that it is a pretty small part. I think that most of it is for the money and to support many areas that are largely academic in nature. For example, if Philosophy classes were not required to be taken by all students aquiring a 4 year degree, many institutions would likely not have the demand to support even offering the programs. People will say that these classes give students the opportunity to explore other interests, since few people coming out of High School likley have the appropriate exposure necessary to commit to a field such as sociology, but why do these "opportunities" need to be forced on people? If you don't know what you want to do, and want to take some courses in different areas, then fine - do that, but requiring everyone to take irrelevant courses is ridiculous.

I like the idea of having all BS and BA degrees be focused around the material necessary for the student's career. If he or she wants to take additional courses, that should be up to the individual.

3. When is a person mature enough to have the necessary perspective to start medical school?
I personally think that 22 or 23 is about it. That being said, I don't think that people need to spend all of those years in school in order to mature. I actually feel the opposite. I think that functioning in a non-academic role where you support yourself for at least a year should be a requirement of medical school applicants. As much as you mature in college, just wait until you are 100% responsible for yourself, have your own expendable income with which you are able to choose what kind of lifestyle you want to live, aren't in the easy-made social situation that is a college campus and have to spend the majority of your time working. You gain a great deal of perspective in the first year or two after college, which can greatly shape the adult that you become.

 

[LiveLoveLearn]

Those are horse**** jobs that don't provide any real world skills, and has nothing to do with studying medicine or working on a medical floor. When I worked jobs like these I usually left work for a few hours, blazed, and came back, and if my supervisor wasn't baked out of his mind and actually noticed, he didn't care as long as I didn't forget to punch out and cause him more paperwork.

A real job with real responsibilities and a real boss, not just a "shift supervisor", will provide much more room to grow. And unfortunately, if you can land a "real job" with just a high school diploma that isn't a niche trade, then you are the far exception.

Whoa - lots of people live their entire lives off of these "horse**** jobs".

This is exactly the reason why I think that people should be required to spend time out of school and actually in the real world where whatever job you have, there are trade-offs. Your inability to see any of the above professions as a viable life choice shows a real lack of maturity and perspective, and would be pretty insulting to a huge portion of our population. Life is all about trade-offs.

As a physician, you will be paid much more, but give up a great deal of your life for school, likely work a ton and have a lot of responsibility. In one of these "horse**** jobs" you get paid little, but didn't have to spend years of your life in preparation for the job. In addition, you are able to leave work at work - not a lot of responsibility and normal/likely flexible hours. Depending on your priorities in life (family, free time, travel, work, etc.), either one of these options could be best. Some people just don't value their jobs that much - it doesn't define them, and they aren't willing to trade as much as others are for what you may deem as a higher quality career.

 

[KnuxNole]

It'd suck to not be able to go to bars after med school exams or a Friday night after rotations. I guess they have no choice but to either get fake IDs, or deal with house parties.

Basically, in the US, you won't be able to go to med school directly out of high school. Unless you want to personally change the framework of it, think of it as part of the pathway to your goal. Hell, if you decide you don't want to do med school during undergrad, you won't be in big debt halfway through.

Also, I think being way too cynical seems a bit taxing. Relax a bit guys 😀

 

[Geebeejay]

Whoa - lots of people live their entire lives off of these "horse**** jobs".

This is exactly the reason why I think that people should be required to spend time out of school and actually in the real world where whatever job you have, there are trade-offs. Your inability to see any of the above professions as a viable life choice shows a real lack of maturity and perspective, and would be pretty insulting to a huge portion of our population. Life is all about trade-offs.

As a physician, you will be paid much more, but give up a great deal of your life for school, likely work a ton and have a lot of responsibility. In one of these "horse**** jobs" you get paid little, but didn't have to spend years of your life in preparation for the job. In addition, you are able to leave work at work - not a lot of responsibility and normal/likely flexible hours. Depending on your priorities in life (family, free time, travel, work, etc.), either one of these options could be best. Some people just don't value their jobs that much - it doesn't define them, and they aren't willing to trade as much as others are for what you may deem as a higher quality career.

And your inability to realize that there is no way that anyone makes a full living off these jobs is just naivety. I have been out of college for 2.5 years, and been happily living in this "real world" of yours. These are jobs for children and teenagers, and as a tax payer, you reap the consequences of these so called viable life choices of this huge proportion of our adult population. If you think that people can make minimum wage flipping burgers at a burger king for the rest of their lives and support THEMSELVES, let alone a family without extensive use and abuse of government programs or handouts i.e. welfare, food stamps, free phone programs, subsidized housing, etc. then you are unfortunately sorely mistaken.

Yes, many people have no choice but to work a job like this based on lack of proper education, family pressure, etc.....but these jobs are entry level, and there still is room for improvement from the jobs I have listed based on work ethic which leads to promotions and other opportunities. I cannot remember the last time I walked into a fast food chain restaurant and saw a cashier or burger flipper older than 25, or talked to a tech support worker who sounded older than 25, and this is because you are in fact wrong. These jobs afford little responsibility, little room for growth, and are stepping stone children's jobs that are incomparable to a "real job" from doctor to bus driver to garbage man, which would be out of reach to a fresh-out-of-high school 18 yr old with little to no work experience and only a high school diploma to show.

edit: I'm aware the many people in this country work crap jobs for little pay as their careers, but that's not we're talking about here. We're talking about jobs available to a fresh high school graduate with few to no prior work experiences or qualifications.

 

[circulus vitios]

And your inability to realize that there is no way that anyone makes a full living off these jobs is just naivety. I have been out of college for 2.5 years, and been happily living in this "real world" of yours. These are jobs for children and teenagers, and as a tax payer, you reap the consequences of these so called viable life choices of this huge proportion of our adult population. If you think that people can make minimum wage flipping burgers at a burger king for the rest of their lives and support THEMSELVES, let alone a family without the use of government programs or handouts i.e. welfare, food stamps, free phone programs, subsidized housing, etc. then you are unfortunately sorely mistaken.

Yes, many people have no choice but to work a job like this based on lack of proper education, family pressure, etc.....but these jobs are entry level, and there still is room for improvement from the jobs I have listed based on work ethic which leads to promotions and other opportunities. I cannot remember the last time I walked into a fast food chain restaurant and saw a cashier or burger flipper older than 25, or talked to a tech support worker who sounded older than 25, and this is because you are in fact wrong. These jobs afford little responsibility, little room for growth, and are stepping stone children's jobs that are incomparable to a "real job" from doctor to bus driver to garbage man, which would be out of reach to a fresh-out-of-high school 18 yr old with little to no work experience and only a high school diploma to show.

We're talking about maturity. Working a dead-end, crappy job teaches you more about the real world and instills more maturity in a person than does sitting in a class room, screwing around in a volunteer department for 3 hours a week, backpacking across Europe, directing a college club, or whatever pointless garbage the average college student or pre-med does.

 

[Geebeejay]

We're talking about maturity. Working a dead-end, crappy job teaches you more about the real world and instills more maturity in a person than does sitting in a class room, screwing around in a volunteer department for 3 hours a week, backpacking across Europe, directing a college club, or whatever pointless garbage the average college student or pre-med does.

besides going to class, I did none of these things. You're college experience was clearly different than mine. I guess we can agree that you didn't have a very fun or good college experience.

 

[LizzyM]

We're talking about maturity. Working a dead-end, crappy job teaches you more about the real world and instills more maturity in a person than does sitting in a class room, screwing around in a volunteer department for 3 hours a week, backpacking across Europe, directing a college club, or whatever pointless garbage the average college student or pre-med does.

Only 40% of applicants get admitted and many of those are non-trad so the "average student or pre-med" is not even getting into medical school.

Maybe your plan could be adjusted to require 3 years of military service before or after college, or comparable volunteer service in a health or education setting (like Peace Corps) after college.

 

[LiveLoveLearn]

And your inability to realize that there is no way that anyone makes a full living off these jobs is just naivety. I have been out of college for 2.5 years, and been happily living in this "real world" of yours. These are jobs for children and teenagers, and as a tax payer, you reap the consequences of these so called viable life choices of this huge proportion of our adult population. If you think that people can make minimum wage flipping burgers at a burger king for the rest of their lives and support THEMSELVES, let alone a family without extensive use and abuse of government programs or handouts i.e. welfare, food stamps, free phone programs, subsidized housing, etc. then you are unfortunately sorely mistaken.

Yes, many people have no choice but to work a job like this based on lack of proper education, family pressure, etc.....but these jobs are entry level, and there still is room for improvement from the jobs I have listed based on work ethic which leads to promotions and other opportunities. I cannot remember the last time I walked into a fast food chain restaurant and saw a cashier or burger flipper older than 25, or talked to a tech support worker who sounded older than 25, and this is because you are in fact wrong. These jobs afford little responsibility, little room for growth, and are stepping stone children's jobs that are incomparable to a "real job" from doctor to bus driver to garbage man, which would be out of reach to a fresh-out-of-high school 18 yr old with little to no work experience and only a high school diploma to show.

My mother was a waitress or factory worker for my entire life. My aunt is a manger at grocery store, my uncle is repair man at music store, my sister is a telemarketer. They all have families of which they all support. I was a first generation college graduate, and am anything but naive about the lifestyle of workers that aren't college educated. One of the examples listed was a fast food chain, the others were not - manual labor, tech support, etc.. Saying that anywhere that a person can work in which they have a "shift supervisor" is not a real job is extremely insensitive and misinformed. Lots of people don't go to college and lead very different lives. Acting as if the only legitimate life choice is the one that you made or that of your family and friends is very narrow-minded.