Why aren't undergrads P/F like med schools nowadays?

[Anova05]

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I have been on my fair share of interviews, and it seems that all P/F students are really happy with that curriculum. Why not go that same direction for undergraduate education?

After all, GPA is a joke and MCAT is the great equalizer. I attend a top school famous for grade deflation. It is almost ridiculous that a 3.5 chemical engineer from a top program is seen as lazy compared to the 4.0 underwater basket weaving major from State Tech Agricultural U. And my undergrad routinely produces 35+ MCATs with corresponding Meh GPAs.

I know I would have been happier and more adventurous in college taking notoriously difficult classes, like particle physics and graduate math courses if I knew the rigor would be weighted against my premed buddies in pre-algebra.

 

[kb1900]

Because being a premed = sacrificing academic ambition when selecting courses

 

[thatwouldbeanarchy]

First of all, people of color and women tend to score lower on the MCAT so I'm not sure how you can claim that it's the "great equalizer." And nothing is stopping you from taking particle physics pass/fail. If I had a nickel for every time someone on SDN whined about going to a top grade deflating school, I'd be able to comfortably finance my medical education without any loans.

 

[Officer Farva]

I have been on my fair share of interviews, and it seems that all P/F students are really happy with that curriculum. Why not go that same direction for undergraduate education?

After all, GPA is a joke and MCAT is the great equalizer. I attend a top school famous for grade deflation. It is almost ridiculous that a 3.5 chemical engineer from a top program is seen as lazy compared to the 4.0 underwater basket weaving major from State Tech Agricultural U. And my undergrad routinely produces 35+ MCATs with corresponding Meh GPAs.

I know I would have been happier and more adventurous in college taking notoriously difficult classes, like particle physics and graduate math courses if I knew the rigor would be weighted against my premed buddies in pre-algebra.

I was fortunate enough to interview at a handful of top programs. I couldn't help but notice that besides the usual HYPS students, that unranked lower-tier undergrads are highly represented too. Perhaps having an easy 4.0 allows the students to study 4 years for the MCAT, which probably accounts for a lot of the higher end 78+ LizzyMs at those schools.

 

[Lawpy]

Because being a premed = sacrificing academic ambition when selecting courses

😕😕

 

[Anova05]

First of all, people of color and women tend to score lower on the MCAT so I'm not sure how you can claim that it's the "great equalizer." And nothing is stopping you from taking particle physics pass/fail. If I had a nickel for every time someone on SDN whined about going to a top grade deflating school, I'd be able to comfortably finance my medical education without any loans.

Then why bother attending a top school anyway if attending a lower tier schools have an easier time? In academia, academic pedigree and publication records go into a lot of the hiring. And in finance, firms only recruit at top schools. And because of the proliferation of law schools, law jobs are increasingly hard to come by (Unless you went to a top program). Why should medicine admissions do differently?

 

[Glandzburg]

I was fortunate enough to interview at a handful of top programs. I couldn't help but notice that besides the usual HYPS students, that unranked lower-tier undergrads are highly represented too. Perhaps having an easy 4.0 allows the students to study 4 years for the MCAT, which probably accounts for a lot of the higher end 78+ LizzyMs at those schools.

Because HYPS are the only schools that challenge their students? LOL get over yourself and stop potentiating the stereotypes about HYPS snobs.

 

[JustAPhD]

What are you suggesting? That premed students be graded P/F while their counterparts receive normal grading? Or that all of college should be graded P/F?

Either way it's ridiculous.

 

[Lawpy]

Then why bother attending a top school anyway if attending a lower tier schools have an easier time? In academia, academic pedigree and publication records go into a lot of the hiring. And in finance, firms only recruit at top schools. And because of the proliferation of law schools, law jobs are increasingly hard to come by (Unless you went to a top program). Why should medicine admissions do differently?

Yeah i agree man. Let's shut down most of the colleges and only keep the HYPSM-type universities. After all, most of those colleges are too flawed and severely lack the resources to get their graduates into good academia and finance jobs. Medicine should clearly follow the same route. It restores the meaning and value of the bachelor's disagree.

 

[Anova05]

What are you suggesting? That premed students be graded P/F while their counterparts receive normal grading? Or that all of college should be graded P/F?

Either way it's ridiculous.

That everyone be graded P/F. Medical school does it after all and that's totally fine. People would not be stressed about grades, focus on learning, and network like crazy.

 

[Lawpy]

That everyone be graded P/F. Medical school does it after all and that's totally fine. People would not be stressed about grades, focus on learning, and network like crazy.

Yeah i agree. Its a reasonable proposal because college is really about preparing yourself for the real world while taking classes that you are interested in. Worrying about grades or enjoying the sweet grade inflation ride defeats the purpose, and much of that time can be focused heavily on more important matters

 

[Gibbward]

There are actually a handful of colleges out there that have a P/F grading system and instead of letter grades, professors give written evaluations to each student. My friend went to one and said she's got former classmates that are in med school right now. Whether that grading system helped them, I'm not sure.

 

[JustAPhD]

That everyone be graded P/F. Medical school does it after all and that's totally fine. People would not be stressed about grades, focus on learning, and network like crazy.

You're forgetting that other people don't have to take the MCAT so there's no "equalizer" between all of the Passes.

 

[thatwouldbeanarchy]

Then why bother attending a top school anyway if attending a lower tier schools have an easier time? In academia, academic pedigree and publication records go into a lot of the hiring. And in finance, firms only recruit at top schools. And because of the proliferation of law schools, law jobs are increasingly hard to come by (Unless you went to a top program). Why should medicine admissions do differently?

We have reason to believe that private medical schools do consider the rigor of an applicant's undergraduate institution. (I can't find it for the life of me right now but there's an AAMC survey that asks private vs. public med schools to rank the importance of certain selection factors.) How that stacks up compared to GPA, I don't think any of us can say. But no, I'm not in favor of the assumption that someone with a 3.5 from Harvard is automatically a better candidate than someone with a 3.8 from UMass Lowell. But then again, I'm not a fan of academic snobbery. Why should someone who has done well in their prereqs and on the MCAT be dismissed because they don't have a name-brand on their diploma?

 

[Anova05]

You're forgetting that other people don't have to take the MCAT so there's no "equalizer" between all of the Passes.

You are right! Too bad there isn't a general standardized test for each major. But it would be cool to imagine the rigor by school, curriculum, and resume.

 

[Mad Jack]

First of all, people of color and women tend to score lower on the MCAT so I'm not sure how you can claim that it's the "great equalizer." And nothing is stopping you from taking particle physics pass/fail. If I had a nickel for every time someone on SDN whined about going to a top grade deflating school, I'd be able to comfortably finance my medical education without any loans.

That doesn't prove the MCAT is a flawed test in any way. It is the great equalizer in the sense that a high MCAT score is predictive of your success in medical school, while a low score is predictive of your failure. Your race or sex didn't factor into that equation- a 24 is just as likely to equate to higher attrition than a 30 regardless of your personal demographic characteristics.

 

[thatwouldbeanarchy]

That everyone be graded P/F. Medical school does it after all and that's totally fine.

I think the reason it's totally fine for pre-clinical grades to be P/F in med school is because med students already demonstrated strong academic achievement through high grades in undergrad. By the time you get to med school, individual grades don't matter as much because you now have a totally different set of markers for your success: your scores on the Steps and your performance in clinical rotations.

It's not that I'm a huge fan of traditional grading. I went to a school where it was very common to take many classes P/F. But what you're saying makes no sense.

 

[JustAPhD]

You are right! Too bad there isn't a general standardized test for each major. But it would be cool to imagine the rigor by school, curriculum, and resume.

I agree that would be interesting. Although then we'd be essentially creating drones by major. I'm fine with how it is now, with institutions choosing what to put emphasis on without the need to prep students for a particular standardized exam.

 

[Lawpy]

We have reason to believe that private medical schools do consider the rigor of an applicant's undergraduate institution. (I can't find it for the life of me right now but there's an AAMC survey that asks private vs. public med schools to rank the importance of certain selection factors.)

You should consult the sticky thread 😉

Mandatory @efle signal

 

[Mad Jack]

You're forgetting that other people don't have to take the MCAT so there's no "equalizer" between all of the Passes.

The overwhelming majority if medical students have taken the MCAT. A fraction of a percent do not, and that is only allowed in very special programs and cases at a small number of schools.

 

[Glandzburg]

That everyone be graded P/F. Medical school does it after all and that's totally fine. People would not be stressed about grades, focus on learning, and network like crazy.

It works in medical school because those students have already been selected as the best students from UG. They have already shown their work ethic, that they can handle medical school.

If you take away GPA from UG, there is no longer a way to distinguish between the 3.8/32 applicant and the 3.2/32 applicant. Granted, there are more variables at play here besides work ethic, such as school or major. It is a good idea to try to standardize grading across majors and even schools, but I don't think P/F is the way to do it.

 

[JustAPhD]

The overwhelming majority if medical students have taken the MCAT. A fraction of a percent do not, and that is only allowed in very special programs and cases at a small number of schools.

I was referring to non-premed students (OP had stated that everyone in every major should be graded P/F).

 

[Mad Jack]

I have been on my fair share of interviews, and it seems that all P/F students are really happy with that curriculum. Why not go that same direction for undergraduate education?

After all, GPA is a joke and MCAT is the great equalizer. I attend a top school famous for grade deflation. It is almost ridiculous that a 3.5 chemical engineer from a top program is seen as lazy compared to the 4.0 underwater basket weaving major from State Tech Agricultural U. And my undergrad routinely produces 35+ MCATs with corresponding Meh GPAs.

I know I would have been happier and more adventurous in college taking notoriously difficult classes, like particle physics and graduate math courses if I knew the rigor would be weighted against my premed buddies in pre-algebra.

Prestigious medical schools place heavy emphasis on alma mater and know which ones inflate and deflate. Chill out.

State schools, however, tend not to care.

 

[Mad Jack]

I was referring to non-premed students (OP had stated that everyone in every major should be graded P/F).

Ah. Yeah, op forgets that 99% of students are going on to either graduate school or getting a job after undergrad, and employers need something to judge applicants in rather than "oh, he passed." Most of the rest of the working world doesn't have the extent of certifications that medicine has to ensure minimum competency, so grades tend to work as a proxy for that, however poor.

 

[Officer Farva]

Prestigious medical schools place heavy emphasis on alma mater and know which ones inflate and deflate. Chill out.

State schools, however, tend not to care.

I am only one person, but I noticed that interviewees at top programs from top schools were equally represented alongside lower-tier programs. In between great programs, such as UCLA, UC Berkeley, Vanderbilt, NYU, Duke, and WashU were strangely absent from top interviews. Let me stress, this is only my observation at my interview days at top programs and not fact.

Maybe the lower-tier programs produce the 4.0s/45 to increase numbers, while the HYPS people add prestige and impressive accomplishments.

 

[Mad Jack]

I am only one person, but I noticed that interviewees at top programs from top schools were equally represented alongside lower-tier programs. In between great programs, such as UCLA, UC Berkeley, Vanderbilt, NYU, Duke, and WashU were strangely absent from top interviews. Let me stress, this is only my observation at my interview days at top programs and not fact.

Maybe the lower-tier programs produce the 4.0s/45 to increase numbers, while the HYPS people add prestige and impressive accomplishments.

Sounds like you just had a weird batch of fellow interviewees.

 

[ndafife]

So many freshmen enter college as premeds. They did decently well in high school, they like science, they have family that are doctors, etc...

Right now they go into college and struggle... They get C's they can't make grades. End up with a gpa in the 2s or low 3's after a year. With a low GPA a lot of them can make the decision to switch their major early because they arent going to be able to make the grades to get into medical school.

You switch everything to pass/fail (ignoring implications for the 100s of other majors/career paths) you might not be weeding people out until they take their MCAT/apply (or worse, flunk out after a year when they have 50k in additional debt).

 

[Lucca]

People are still free to take some classes P/F if they are interested but know that they will get wrecked by the course.

 

[baratheonfire]

First of all, people of color and women tend to score lower on the MCAT so I'm not sure how you can claim that it's the "great equalizer." And nothing is stopping you from taking particle physics pass/fail. If I had a nickel for every time someone on SDN whined about going to a top grade deflating school, I'd be able to comfortably finance my medical education without any loans.

>People of color
Excluding asians for the sake of convenience

 

[Goro]

P/F medical schools are in the minority. The system also tends to devolve into HP/P/F and then H(onors)/HP/P/F, which is no better than A/B/C/D/F anyway.

That everyone be graded P/F. Medical school does it after all and that's totally fine. People would not be stressed about grades, focus on learning, and network like crazy.

 

[7331poas]

Most people really overestimate how hard their classes are compared to others. Schools like Georgia tech may run a much harder curriculum than even a HYPSM.

Hell, even at my non flagship state school we run a way harder organic I and II class than MIT based on their ocw exams

The problem is most premeds just like to tell themselves that what they are doing is harder in order to rationalize their own mediocre grades.

I am an engineer. I think other engineers might be conveniently forgetting any class where the grades were on a curve which in my experience is far more often than pre req classes.

 

[Lawpy]

P/F medical schools are in the minority. The system also tends to devolve into HP/P/F and then H(onors)/HP/P/F, which is no better than A/B/C/D/F anyway.

What are the benefits of H/HP/P/F system compared to P/F system for preclinical curriculum?

 

[kb1900]

😕😕

You don't believe that the majority of premed students took the easy A class over one they were interested in?

I did for the first year and a half before I was confident in my academic ability to ace the "notorious gpa-killing upper levels" that everyone loves to avoid

Undergrad SHOULD be the place where you challenge yourself/pursue interests etc. But those goals pretty much don't align with the "goals" of your standard premed student pursuing med school admission.

 

[7331poas]

What are the benefits of H/HP/P/F system compared to P/F system for preclinical curriculum?

Its a more informative grading scale? P/F only benefits the students who are content with performing at an arbitrary level and get labeled equally to their peers. I relieves pressure.

 

[Med Ed]

What are the benefits of H/HP/P/F system compared to P/F system for preclinical curriculum?

The only potential benefit is that more gradients give residency program directors more information to use when stratifying applicants. This utility is pretty small, however, and when weighed against the benefits of a P/F preclinical grading system (i.e. less stress and competition among classmates) it is easy to see why so many schools have made the switch.

 

[GrapesofRath]

The only potential benefit is that more gradients give residency program directors more information to use when stratifying applicants. This utility is pretty small, however, and when weighed against the benefits of a P/F preclinical grading system (i.e. less stress and competition among classmates) it is easy to see why so many schools have made the switch.

Well the question from this is how many schools that say they are P/F now truly are P/F? Ie how many of them still dont keep some form of internal ranking where when they send LORs to residency programs its not apparent from their wording and phrasing where you stood in the class? It's a great selling point for a school to say they've gone P/F to entice the students they accept to come, but how many of them truly have gone away from any kind of class rank being kept and/or being mentioned directly or indirectly in the letters they send for residency applications?

Having said that, ranking for pre-clinical years tends to be at the bottom of the list of factors residency directors place importance in when trying to rank candidates. I just find it interesting reading about situations where schools claim true "P/F status" but in reality this can be misleading at some schools.

 

[Lawpy]

The only potential benefit is that more gradients give residency program directors more information to use when stratifying applicants. This utility is pretty small, however, and when weighed against the benefits of a P/F preclinical grading system (i.e. less stress and competition among classmates) it is easy to see why so many schools have made the switch.

So suppose all universities made a similar switch to P/F system, essentially rendering GPA obsolete for medical school admissions. Would this be favorable because the resulting applicants can spend more time and less stress to do things they enjoy? Or is such a switch discouraged because of much less weeding out that happens?

 

[7331poas]

So suppose all universities made a similar switch to P/F system, essentially rendering GPA obsolete for medical school admissions. Would this be favorable because the resulting applicants can spend more time and less stress to do things they enjoy? Or is such a switch discouraged because of much less weeding out that happens?

Or because there is an insane amount of stress to do ECs and perform outside of the class.

I can be a 2x better student than my classmate, but if he happens to join a lab and publish 2 papers and I only publish one, how is that going to look at an admission committee? (with similar LORs and otherwise)

Competitiveness doesnt just disappear when GPA gets eliminated. Now there is just another race for something else. The worst part is, ECs are even more subjective than GPA is.

 

[Med Ed]

So suppose all universities made a similar switch to P/F system, essentially rendering GPA obsolete for medical school admissions. Would this be favorable because the resulting applicants can spend more time and less stress to do things they enjoy? Or is such a switch discouraged because of much less weeding out that happens?

If all colleges and universities went P/F, medical school admissions would become all about the MCAT. Is that a world we want to live in?

 

[Med Ed]

Well the question from this is how many schools that say they are P/F now truly are P/F? Ie how many of them still dont keep some form of internal ranking where when they send LORs to residency programs its not apparent from their wording and phrasing where you stood in the class?

Few program directors give preclinical grades much weight in any case, unless there are a bunch of F's.

 

[7331poas]

The inherent problem with med school admissions is that premeds cant really do anything worthwhile at their level.

For instance, in my engineering program several students I know have developed amazing computer modifications and excellent programs. Now when they apply to jobs their employers can directly look at how good they are at doing Computer science work.

For med schools, there isnt an analogous skill-set. They have to go off things that most premeds do and decide what they want in their med school and what they dont.

 

[Lawpy]

Or because there is an insane amount of stress to do ECs and perform outside of the class.

I can be a 2x better student than my classmate, but if he happens to join a lab and publish 2 papers and I only publish one, how is that going to look at an admission committee? (with similar LORs and otherwise)

Competitiveness doesnt just disappear when GPA gets eliminated. Now there is just another race for something else. The worst part is, ECs are even more subjective than GPA is.

If all colleges and universities went P/F, medical school admissions would become all about the MCAT. Is that a world we want to live in?

Hm, thats true. I guess i was poorly trying to mirror medical school admissions with residency admissions by drawing out various similarities to improve the efficiency of the former. But i failed to take into account that there are really more applicants per med school seat as opposed to comparatively similar amounts of med student applicants to residency seats.

Looks like the GPA, despite its vitriol associated with in these forums, is necessary objective data to provide a long-term context for a one-day MCAT deal

 

[Goro]

It makes the Faculty feel better,because the students who truly deserve some accolades for their performance, get it. But then we're right back to letter grades.

Adding a class rank may be helpful to PDs who want to make sense of P vs F, but I suspect that even that will bring out the gunners, who will have the attitude of "What??? I'm only ranked 37 out of 145???!!!"

What are the benefits of H/HP/P/F system compared to P/F system for preclinical curriculum?

 

[baratheonfire]

If all colleges and universities went P/F, medical school admissions would become all about the MCAT. Is that a world we want to live in?

Yes

 

[Med Ed]

I know I would have been happier and more adventurous in college

Well, it is all about your happiness, isn't it?

taking notoriously difficult classes, like particle physics and graduate math courses if I knew the rigor would be weighted against my premed buddies in pre-algebra.

So, if I am reading this correctly, you made the conscious decision to attend a "top school notorious for grade deflation" and now bemoan the fact that it may not be the easiest path to medical school. Good news: adcoms have knowledge of the relative degreee of grade inflation/deflation at top schools, we can read transcripts, and we have admitted students who did not ace particle physics.

 

[Sailor Senshi Dermystify]

What does HYPSM mean?

 

[Med Ed]

What does HYPSM mean?

Hide Your Polish Stepsisters, Mario.

 

[Sailor Senshi Dermystify]

Hide Your Polish Stepsisters, Mario.

🤣

No, seriously, lol. What does HYPSM mean?

Thanks!

 

[Med Ed]

🤣

No, seriously, lol. What does HYPSM mean?

Thanks!

"Google it and the answer will literally be the top result."

Seriously.

 

[Lawpy]

🤣

No, seriously, lol. What does HYPSM mean?

Thanks!

"Google it and the answer will literally be the top result."

Seriously.

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=what+does+hypsm+stand+for?