Why Australia over the US?

[coastal]

My question is for Canadians who chose, or would choose, a medical school in Australia over one in the US, Americans who could have gotten into good schools in the US but chose Australia, or anyone else in a similar postion. Why?

My personal take, which has been fluctuating over the last few weeks, is that based only on tuition, assuming no scholarships, I would come out of an American school $50,000 Canadian, more in debt than if I went to an Australian school. Cost of living is also cheaper in Oz, with the possible exception of Sydney. Plus, as a place to live, Australia appeals to me much more than the States. But, I can't shake the feeling that my credibility would be greater coming out of an American school. Is this valid?

My other concern is whether it is any harder to get loans as a Canadian going to school in Australia, than as a Canadian going to school in the US. How have others tackled the financial issue (I can probably get my parents to co-sign, but would rather not ask).

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[pitman]

I'm an American who would likely get into one or more US schools, but am applying only to (3) Australian schools.

Here are my reasons:

1) lower cost -- I'm in Massachusetts which has a VERY competitive state school, so state school (cheap) tuition is out of the question for me. Cost of living is less than in US, even in Sydney.

2) PBL -- I prefer to learn by being given direction, then researching on my own, rather than learning via lecture. I also prefer hands-on learning (clinical time from the start).

3) Different culture -- not radically different, but different enough to pique my interest.

4) Location -- S. Pacific, which I've always wanted to explore.

5) Less reliance on technology -- I have a very technical background, but plan to practice in the 3rd or "2nd" (usu. reserved for socialist) World, where tech is limited.

6) Good rep of the Aus. schools, in US (i.e., residency) and, more importantly, in 3rd World.

7) Possibility of becoming an Aus. citizen (via marriage or military service), which would allow better safety if practicing in areas not friendly to Americans (e.g., most of Middle East).

Reasons not to apply to other Int'l schools:

1) Didn't like Ireland much.
2) Didn't want stigma of Caribbean, nor a school whose main purpose is to prep for USMLE + US practice.
3) Israel was attractive, but family concerns over safety have made me re-consider.
4) Qatar (Cornell) out of my league.
5) GEMP (UK) looked attractive, but didn't want the hassle of applying through separate process, plus I'd be attending school in Aus. before getting interviews in UK; therefore, would only serve as a "backup" (maybe I'll regret that!).

I'm not concerned with some of the hassles of doing the Aus. route, such as independent prep for USMLE, and I don't do much of anything conventionally, ever.

-Pitman

 

[coastal]

I don't do much of anything conventionally, ever.

Me neither.

 

[Renovar]

Originally posted by coastal
My question is for Canadians who chose, or would choose, a medical school in Australia over one in the US, Americans who could have gotten into good schools in the US but chose Australia, or anyone else in a similar postion. Why?

My personal take, which has been fluctuating over the last few weeks, is that based only on tuition, assuming no scholarships, I would come out of an American school $50,000 Canadian, more in debt than if I went to an Australian school. Cost of living is also cheaper in Oz, with the possible exception of Sydney. Plus, as a place to live, Australia appeals to me much more than the States. But, I can't shake the feeling that my credibility would be greater coming out of an American school. Is this valid?

My other concern is whether it is any harder to get loans as a Canadian going to school in Australia, than as a Canadian going to school in the US. How have others tackled the financial issue (I can probably get my parents to co-sign, but would rather not ask).

It depends on where you want to end up practicing, that's the question you have to ask yourself.

 

[trkd]

I second the last comment. You have to consider where you want to practice and what kind of doc you want to be. It may not be as big of a factor if you want to be a rural GP. It will be more of a factor if you want to be an ortho surgeon. You are likely to not know at this point what you want to do but should appreciate the fact that these could be affected later should you choose to come to Oz rather than US. I have a number of close Canadian friends here that came to study in Oz because Canadian schools are impossible to get into. They had the stats to get into US schools but came here instead. There reasons were often: #1 cheaper and #2 lifestyle in Oz. I don't really understand this bit much because in my mind, the extra money (which really isn't much more) is worth the peace of mind in knowing that US grads match for 90+ percent of the US residencies. Getting back into Canada for residency is terribly difficult for them and many often go to the US for residency to get a shot at getting back into Canada (and this is not the case if you go to a US school since US grads who are Canadians can match in the first round of the Carms Match). But they tell me that living in Australia for the experience is worth it when you take the money into consideration as well. Fair enough. If you want the experience of living here, come on over. I personally don't live by how much debt I will incur. 130,000 versus 160,000 dollars is not terribly different to me at this point. Everything costs money here (even packets of ketchup, suprisingly). My loans run me a bit over 35,000 US dollars a year. It is quite expensive living here. $20,000 dollars of that is for school. With the rest of the money, I live an alright existence (although I don't drink and live at a cheap place so my budget might look better than some of my friends). Travel costs to go back home are a bitch too. So how much will you be saving?

My point is not that you shouldn't come to Oz. If you read my previous posts, you will see that I very much like the University of Sydney program and living here is alright (I don't find much difference between here and the US in many ways). So my point of view is not of a disgruntled American in Oz. This are just my somewhat-informed thoughts on the matter based on my own priorities. My Canadian friends have their own priorities that they base their decisions on. You have to figure out what is important to you and make this decision. Good luck either way.

By the way, about the loan, you can get a TERI loan up to $25,000 US a year with or without a co-signer. You pay a higher rate without a cosigner but it can be done. The rest you should get with a bank, I think. At least that is what many people I know are doing.

 

[pitman]

Yeah, after reading trkd's post, I feel I should do a bit more qualifying: I don't personally have much interest in US practice despite an interest in US licensure, so consider that when evaluating my attitude. Also, after living in Manhattan and Boston as a professional for many years, it does seem to me that Sydney is "cheap", but it won't be for a lot of other people. Not that I'm special, but rather my background has contributed to my state of mind and I should have done more than allude to it above.

-Pitman

 

[MD1088]

Hola...Resons for going to Aus. over US

1) Washington State resident - waitlisted at UW, excellent school but mediocre student body (those I met) - LOTS of attitude. Besides, didnt get in.

2) Got into DO school but not a recognized degree anywhere but US. Besides, who can afford it?

3) Older student body in Australian GEMP programs.

4) Paying roughly what I would have paid as in state at UW, tuition a bit more here, living a bit less.

5) Aussie chicks rule.

 

[spinestudent]

Australian grads are IMGs. There is no getting around that. Most people who go to med school in australia do so for the same reasons people go to Ross or SGU in the carribean. PD's know this.

The # of people who choose to go to any foreign school(irish, oz, isreal, or carrib) over LCME schools is insignificant.

I agree with what the other posters said. It all depends on what you want to eventually end up doing. Being an IMG will put you at a tremendous disadvantage when applying for competitive residencies. As long as you know that going in, it could be a good decision to go to Australia if you like the country.

 

[coastal]

Just a delayed thanks for all the replies. I've come to realize that my concern with "credibility" is irrelevant considering I've never wanted to practice medicine or even live in the US (except when I wanted a baseball scholarship in high school!). Although it will be more difficult to get back into Canada after graduating from an Australian school, I'd rather live in other countries anyways-at least for a decade or so.

 

[pitman]

coastal -- will you be applyng to Aus. schools? 4yr (grad) or 6yr?

 

[lexy]

I am a Canadian, applying to Aus. The main reasons:

1. My degree is a BScN (Nursing) - not a BScN (all universities in Canada - with the exception of McMaster, require a science degree).

2. Way too competitive in Canada - I know too many people that had tried 3 or 4 times to get in (with exceptional marks, and MCAT scores)

3. MCAT / UMAT - it is optional in Australia (as I said, my undergrad is in nursing, not in science)

4. Went to school in Aus (post grad degree) , and travelled quite a bit while there - and LOVED it

5. Looked into Ireland - would end up costing me approx. $90.000 a year (living expenses included) - plus after talking to some students, the lifestyle wasn't too appealing

6. Ireland students have just as hard of a time trying to return to Canada as Aus students

7. The US - cost factor again - convert Canadian money... ouch!

8. It is hard, but not impossible to get back into Canada - depends on the residency program you are looking at, and as long as you are not looking at cities/schools in Vancouver, Toronto, ...etc. But never say never - I personally hope to go into orthopaedics ( I don't care where in Canada)- but I'll worry about that when the time comes. I'm open to different possibilites.

9. I am honestly hoping with the changes in our health care system, things will change very soon. The baby boom generation is aging - and (just as in nursing) there will be a HUGE number of retiring physicians in the next few years - Canada is already having a hard time with a physician shortage (people can't even find a GP in Vancouver - not enough of them). I really think (hope) that the government will have to re-evaluate their policy on taking foreign graduates in the future (but who knows, maybe I'm just the forever optimist)

10. The weather / climate is similiar to Vancouver (obviously not Ontario), the currency is similiar, the lifestyle is similar, plus....Aus has a much more laid back culture. I find that North Americans in general are too uptight and stressed out (being one, and living in Canada all my life). Australians' way of living, and attitudes are, for the most part, much more conducive to learning, and living a balanced life. They aren't irresponsible, or slackers, just more tolerant, and easy going.

Just my thoughts - hope that helps.
Lexy

 

[coastal]

Hey lexy, reason #9 on your list is a big one for me too. I think alot of people want to get back into Canada right away, which is difficult, although not impossible by any means. But when you look at the demographics, a few years down the road the situation will have to change regarding Canadians who are IMGs. Canada already needs doctors and the shortage is only going to get worse. My girlfriend comes from a small town in BC, and three quarters of the doctors there are from foreign countries, a large number of them South Africans. They stay a few years, and are then allowed to move to a larger city if they choose to do so. It will obviously be easier for a Canadian trained in Australia to practice in Canada than a South African or Australian who was trained in their respective home countries.

To answer pitman's question, I'll be applying to the 4 year post-graduate programs.

cheers

 

[The Pill Counter]

Coastal, Lexy, in all due respect, you guys don't have a clue. I'm Canadian and a couple of years further ahead on the road that winds through Australia.
Your views on getting a residency (and of all things Ortho) are way, way too optimistic. Spend some time on carms.ca, look at the stats, look at the provincial restrictions, understand some of the challenges, and by all means make the trip, but know what you're getting into.
Secondly, all undergrad programs require UMAT (except one, I think) and all grad-entry require GAMSAT/MCAT.

 

[lexy]

Hi pillcounter - actually, all of the schools I applied to ( 5 in total) didn't require UMAT/MCAT scores (undergrad) - which is why I picked them. (Monash, U of NSW, James Cook, Adelaide and Newcastle)
I am not naive by any means, believe me, I know the risks, and I know it won't be easy coming back. I am willing to take that chance.
But, 2 people I know (Canadians), that are finishing in Aus right now, both got residencies in Canada (ENT) - which obviously surprised me (because I honestly thought family/rural would be the only possible spots available).
Pill counter - what year are you in - have you looked into your MCCQE - are you considering coming back yourself? Or are you staying in Aus?

 

[crackerj]

Hello Lexy...

Have you completed any undergraduate degree? If then, I don't think you can apply to Monash.... Also James Cook does not like people who got a degree...

I am studying in Australia so I know what it is like...Newcastle is a good uni to apply.... I am applying there too..

 

[crackerj]

And for the Pill Counter, I want to correct something...

For international students, only Uni of NSW and Uni of Western Australia require UMAT... for other unis, you do not need UMAT...

Of course, for all postgraduate medicine, you need GAMSAT/MCAT...

 

[crackerj]

Lexy... I just realised that you got a undergraduate degree in nursing..... I do not think you can apply to Monash... if you can, let me know so that I can apply there as well but....... I contacted Monash uni before and they said I can't if I have a degree...

Also, James Cook will not like a person who has a degree.... they will suggest to apply to postgraduate medicine....

Regards..

 

[The Pill Counter]

About the UMAT, I looked into it, it's required at all undergrad schools for Australian applicants, but it seems some of them do waive it for international applicants.
Lexy, I'm a few weeks away from the end of second year. I'll be writing the MCCEE in Aug 2005, then MCCQE Part1 the following spring. I don't know if I'll return to Canada or go to the States, but I'll write the exams anyway. Right now I'm revising for Step 1 in January.
To be honest Lexy, I just don't believe two Canucks with Aussie degrees got ENT spots. There is something like 14 spots across the country each year, the competition is fierce, and never does a spot go unfilled. Officially, no FMG could possibly have matched, at least according to carms. The only way is if these people were related to the PD or something along those lines. I'd love to know what school these guys are doing ENT in.

 

[coastal]

Sorry Pillcounter, I should have been more specific: when I said that the situation vis a vis Canadian IMGs will have to change in the next few years, I was talking more about 8-10 years down the line. I won't be in any rush to get back into Canada if I end up going to school in Oz, and if I get in this year in Canada, I'll be looking the first (good) opportunity that presents itself to leave and live somewhere else after graduating from medical school.

 

[lexy]

hi crackerj - I did apply to monash - I didn't supply my high school marks, just my college and university marks (which I thought were sufficient - 86 average in university (nursing)) - but I was rejected, and after going back and looking again at their prerequisities, you need a 92 (OSSD - which is high school) to even qualify. They knew I was applying with a degree.
As for James Cook, I did send my application in Feb, but I missed the fact that a form c (a "request for interview" form?) was required until a few weeks ago . Just a few questions on indiginous, tropical medicine, etc. I finally have my 3 reference letters to attach to it (they won't accept them mailed seperately).
Anyways, it is due end of Sept - the only problem with that school is, that they only do interviews in Cairns, the week before Christmas. I already contacted them regarding this, because I will be in Aus Sept/Oct - but they said there will be no exceptions. Although they said they are going to try to have a representative in the western US for interviews during Dec, to accomodate international students. They also know I have a degree. But it is the undergrad program I am applying for.

Pill Counter - I will find out for you what schools they went to in Aus (I believe one is in Melbourne - which I didn't apply to), and where they are going to be doing ENT.
I do know people that just gave up, and couldn't get back into Canada - but I am just hoping that things will change over the next decade.
I was also told (by a few docs that did their med school in Canada - Calgary, but did their residency overseas) that it is harder to come back to Canada after a residency overseas - so many hoops to jump through, no guarantees, and restricitons on their licences (for the first while). Although this was a few years ago - I'm not sure if things have changed (easier to get back to Canada before or after residency programs).
Lexy

 

[mic]

Lexy, I think you are narrowing your options too much because you want to avoid MCAT. By not doing MCAT (or GAMSAT or UMAT), you're not eligible to apply to most of the medical schools in Australa, and I assume this rules out any US or Canadian school too. From your last post, it sounds like you have been driven to focus somewhat on James Cook University, which, to me as an Australian, is not one of the better known institutions in Australia; I didn't even know that it offered medicine until I read it here.

I'm not familiar with the Canadian university system, but an average of 86 in your first degree sounds to me like a very good mark, near the top of the class, so I assume you are quite smart. If you work towards getting a good MCAT result first, you will have many more options in Canada, the US, Australia and elsewhere, and you will not have to limit yourself to the five- or six-year undergraduate programs.

 

[lexy]

Hi Mic - what you don't understand is, my degree is in nursing (mostly biological sciences), not in science. I have not taken a university level chemistry course since 1990, ....I have never taken a physics course in my life (not even in high school)....there are a lot of fundamental basics I am missing, ....not just to get into med school (in Canada), but just to write the MCAT. I have my brothers' MCAT study guide and started to read through it,.... it was like reading a foreign language. He recommended I go back to university for a few years to get some more science courses(or a science degree) under my belt. THEN write the MCAT, and apply to university.
There are a few problems with that:
1. Canadian universities require an undergraduate science degree for admission (with the exception of McMaster - which is the most competitive school in Canada, for that reason) - it would take me another 3 years full time minimum to complete that. Plus, I would have to be in the top percentile just to be considered.
2. THEN I would have to write the MCAT, and do damn well in it to complete against the thousands of other Canadian students.

My point is, whether for Aus of Canada, I would have to go back to uni for a few years to get some more science courses, just to write the bloody MCAT. I don't have that kind of time - if I was 25, I definately would. If I had my act together a few years ago, I would. But I am older than the majority of students applying to medical school, so unfortunately, for me, it is now, or never.
I know that must sound strange, but I have been a health care professional long enough to know the realities. If I get in at my age, it will take me until I am 55 to pay off my debts (at least). The idea of going back to school for a science degree, and waiting another 3 - 5 years to apply to medical school isn't very appealing. (not to mention having to stay in nursing for another 5 years......) I have been unhappy in my career for quite a few years now,... nursing just isn't as fullfilling as I hoped it would be. I want to know more, do more, be responsible for more,...I am so limited in my profession right now. I want to enjoy my job, and not dread going to work, I want to be intellectually challenged, I want to be constantly thinking. So after months of contemplating, I decided this was it. Apply to the schools I have the qualifications to get into (Monash, UWA, James Cook, Adelaide, Newcastle), and what is meant to be, is meant to be.
So you are right about the schools I applied to. Yes I may be limiting myself, but I chose thoses 5 specific schools for that exact reason.... no MCAT required.
James Cook is actaully my last choice, between us. I know the least about that school. I know a few people in first year at Newcastle, and the program is very similar to McMasters (Canadian) (PBL, limited didactic, etc). Newcastle is definately my first choice.
As an Australian, what kind of reputation does Adelaide and Newcastle have?

 

[The Pill Counter]

Lexy, I'd say your best bet is Newcastle, for starters, it's five years, so you save a year off the other undergrad schools. James Cook is a spin off of our northern tropical division. We used to be able to rotate in Townsville and Cairns, but those sites are now the primary JCU hospitals. The school itself is new, but I'm sure the teaching is just a continuation of what they used to put UQ students through.
Remember, most American residencies fully qualify you to write the corresponding RCPSC or CCFP exam, and the ones that aren't just require another year of residency before you are eligible. US is still the best bet if you want to return to Canada.

 

[crackerj]

Remember JCU doesn't want students who completed an undergraduate degree...Newcastle is the best bet...and it is regarded as one of the best in Aust. as well... ( I don't know why but I've heard they adopted PBL more than 20 years ago...)

 

[mic]

Originally posted by lexy
Apply to the schools I have the qualifications to get into (Monash, UWA, James Cook, Adelaide, Newcastle), and what is meant to be, is meant to be.

To satisfy my curiosity, I looked at the Web sites of the various universities you mentioned, and found the following:

Monash: Does not accept applicants with a degree.
Adelaide: Does not accept applicants with a degree.
UWA: Requires UMAT or ISAT.

I hope for your sake that the Web site information is outdated or incomplete, but it would seem that you are only eligible for Newcastle and James Cook. You did not mention UNSW; you would be eligible there, because there is currently a loophole whereby non-Australians can get in without UMAT.

I still think that, if you don't get an offer this year, you should aim to work towards MCAT. You really do need to understand the basic sciences in order to do well in medical study. Once you have done this, you will have many more options, including the graduate-entry 4-year schools, which can get you back the year or so you would spend studying for MCAT. Especially since student debt seems to be a major issue for you, accumulating less debt by taking a shorter degree would make sense. Having said that, I do hope that you receive an offer soon.

As an Australian, what kind of reputation does Adelaide and Newcastle have?

Unfortunately, I'm not too sure.

 

[coastal]

Hey lexy, you mentioned that it would require several more years of university to write the MCAT, I'm not so sure. You should take a year of physics, chemistry, biology and organic chemistry. That's it. I'm not a science major, in fact I took little more, sciencewise, than the courses required for the MCAT as an undergrad, and did fine. There's definitely no need to go back for a full science degree, or even two full years. The first three could be done at once over two semesters. You could work at the organic chem on your own time (it's not difficult despite what many people seem to say, it just requires some memorization), and then maybe take it as a summer course starting in May. Continue to review the first three, and write the MCAT in August.

Obviously this wouldn't work this year because school has already started. It might not be a bad back-up plan just in case you don't get into the schools you've applied to this year. It would open up all the graduate entry schools in Oz- with an 86% undergraduate average, a decent MCAT score, and your background in healthcare you would be in a very strong position.

Good luck

 

[lexy]

Thanks everyone for your input.
I guess I should of been a bit more specific in regards to my science background though. I do have some science background. I am completely comfortable and confident with biology (nursing degree),...chemistry I would need a major review, but organic chemistry, and physics are foreign to me. I was under the assumption that the 5 or 6 year undergraduate courses in Australia would cover the basics, and start from a first year university level chemistry/biochemistry.
The school has a record of my transcripts and courses, so they are aware of what I have taken, and what I haven't. So I would hope that if I wasn't at a standard level academically, I would be rejected,... wouldn't I? Should I of gone back to uni regardless, to get some more scinces under my belt before applying anywhere for med school? I am going to struggle first year because I didn't?

Mic - I hope I'm qualified for Adelaide, because I have been asked for an interview Oct.1. I wouldn't be very happy if I spent the time and money travelling, to find out that I don't qualify (surely this would be sorted out before offering me an interview, wouldn't it?). They are aware of my degree.
As for Monash, they said my academics weren't sufficient (all I gave them were my college and university marks - didn't offer them my high school marks).
Lexy

 

[mic]

Originally posted by lexy
I was under the assumption that the 5 or 6 year undergraduate courses in Australia would cover the basics, and start from a first year university level chemistry/biochemistry.

If it is of any help to you, a lot of local students going into these undergraduate programs will have high school level physics and chemistry, and minimal biology. I doubt that you would have major problems coping with the material; in fact, part of the reason why I thought it would be a good idea to do MCAT is because your only big knowledge gap is in physics.

Mic - I hope I'm qualified for Adelaide, because I have been asked for an interview Oct.1. I wouldn't be very happy if I spent the time and money travelling, to find out that I don't qualify

I hope you are right, but perhaps it may be a good idea to talk to Adelaide and make sure that all is fine. Please see the information at http://www.adelaide.edu.au/programs/ug/prog/health/#med, under "Tertiary Transfer Students".

BTW, if it isn't too late, don't forget UNSW.

 

[coastal]

Lexy, I wouldn't be worried at all about you science background relative to others' science backgrounds. Even in Canada and the US the prerequisites for applying to med school are fairly minimal, in a few cases less than what you need to write the MCAT. On the web sites for some of the graduate entry Australian schools I read many anecdotes from students, some of them chronicalling how they coped with the course -oad despite not having a science background. The consensus seems to be that first year is more difficult, but towards the end of it, and definitely by second year, the science gap is practically non-existant between those with say a Biology degree, and those who previously studied something unsciency (new word!). I worried alot (and still occasionally worry) about whether I would (will) be able to compete when I get into med school, since my background is in the Humanities, and I will have been out of school for at least 2 years, more if I go to Oz. However, lots of people do it, so if they can so can I! (and you too). Besides, being a nurse will give you a ridiculous advantage over all of us neophytes to the hospital system whose experience in a hospital may consist of bringing juice to patients, folding sheets and erasing names on file folders for three hours straight,some of the wonderful tasks I've experienced as a volunteer! blah.

 

[lexy]

Thanks Mic and Coastal
Maybe I will go over my brother's MCAT study guide and see if anything starts ringing any bells. I really wish I had the time to write , or at least attend a MCAT study session/course.
One of my friends at Newcastle (year 1) has very little (if any) science background, and he said he had to choose his science texts accordingly. He said he bought some texts that were way too complex for him - but after talking to some people, he found certain books that take you back to step one, and explain things very clearly.
Coastal - you made me laugh for the first time today - and it's 9 pm (had a really , REALLY crappy day) - I remember the days of candy striping, and serving juice too - before I went into nursing school. Ahh, the memories. lol The sad thing is, I still did that (serving juice and folding sheets) as a professional nurse! Oh well. I certainly hope my background in the healthcare field is advantageous. I don't have research papers, or a MCAT result to show them....lets just hope they will see just how badly I want this, and that I'm fully aware of the sacraficies and work ahead of me. Thanks everyone.
Lexy

 

[DocRuth]

Hi lexy,

I totally understand what you mean about hoping that med schools will be able to tell how badly you want this. I know that feeling well. I just wanted to mention a couple of things about Canadian med schools.

McMaster University- I know it's very competitive, but with your grades from your nursing degree I would definately give it a try - they seem to like mature students with some real-life experience and probably regard nursing as highly as any med school anywhere. And of course, no MCAT required.

Universities of Calgary and Alberta - I know a few people who have gotten accepted at one or the other in the last few years who did not have a degree at all, even a few with only 2 years of university. Both do require the MCAT though. I also know people with classics or history degrees who have been offered spots.

University of Ottawa - Do not require the MCAT currently, although they used to. I may be wrong, but I don't think they require a science degree, I think just about any degree will do the trick, as long as it wasn't purchased online.



Regardless of what you decide, best of luck, and have a good time in Australia at those interviews.

 

[lexy]

Hey Doc Ruth - I did not know Ottawa changed their MCAT requirements. Interesting. I will look into it. Thanks.
My brother applied to Queens, Ottawa, UWO, Calgary, and Mac - with great marks from a science undergrad from Queens, and impressive MCAT scores, and didn't get into any school (first time around). He decided to go back to Queens for a fully paid scholarship in epidimiology. 3rd time around, he got into Mac (second round) , and Calgary (second round). I just couldn't believe it. How did it take him so long to get into medical school? I was told that people with extrememly highmarks are being rejected from Mac, way too competitive. The fact that my brother couldn't get in for 2 years, tells me something (he's now in clerkship at Calgary). I'm not going to spend the hundreds of dollars, and hours of time on essays, if it's a complete waste of time. I need to focus all my energy and time on preparing for the interviews in Australia right now. I would LOVE to stay in Canada for medical school, but I have to be realistic.
DocRuth, are you applying to Australia also? Did you apply to Canadian schools?

 

[coastal]

Don't bother with Ottawa unless you are a superstar or bilingual. If you only speak English and are out of province you are the lowest of the low on their totem pole according to their website, and you have to be an absolute superstar (ie you could get into lots of better schools) to get in.

 

[DocRuth]

lexy -- just to answer your question - I got into Flinders in Adelaide (found out about a month ago) and am very excited about moving to Oz in January. I didn't apply in Canada because I don't really want to practice here, or in the US for that matter. I'm really interested in the health of indigenous populations and a couple of the Australian schools have some inovative ways of teaching in those areas, which appealed to me.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Originally posted by DocRuth
lexy -- just to answer your question - I got into Flinders in Adelaide (found out about a month ago) and am very excited about moving to Oz in January. I didn't apply in Canada because I don't really want to practice here, or in the US for that matter. I'm really interested in the health of indigenous populations and a couple of the Australian schools have some inovative ways of teaching in those areas, which appealed to me.

While I sympathise with your desire to work with indigenous populations and understand that you have no plans to do further training in Canada or the US, are you aware of the difficulties in staying in Oz after graduation?

Regardless of your interests, you may find that staying beyond a year or two, or emigrating will be very difficult.

 

[lexy]

James Cook University in Cairns/Townsville seems to put alot of emphasis on indiginous health and tropical diseases. Their essay questions revolved around those topics. Interesting.

 

[The Pill Counter]

It might be easier to get permanent residency. You can apply as a recent graduate of an Australian school within six months of graduation. Look at the Australian Immigration website to see the criteria.
CF: They're still desperate for interns.

 

[DocRuth]

Wow, I had no idea my comments about being interested in the health of indigenous populations would stimulate any response.

Kim Cox - it isn't necessarily my intention to stay in Oz after graduation, I'm more just interested in having indigenous health addressed in my undergraduate medical training. My plan A right now is to do my post-graduate training in the United Kingdom, as I am also a Brit. Plan B though, is definately Australia. I know there are some challenges associated with any route, but I am in the process of investigating just what they might be in order to stay in Australia.

Crepitus Fremitus - I had a good laugh about the idea of shacking up with an Aussie. Now there's a plan... The possiblity of studying in Darwin or Alice Springs is part of what attracted me to Flinders in the first place, and I think you are right about using it as a way to find out if I'm really interested in aboriginal health or not. I figure that's part of what med school is for, in general - finding out what kind of medicine you really really want to do, and what you don't. Oh, and thanks very much for the link to the book. I will definately get ahold of it before I leave for Adelaide.

Pill Counter - thanks for the link to Australian immigration site. Very helpful.

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by pitman

Here are my reasons:

1) lower cost -- I'm in Massachusetts which has a VERY competitive state school, so state school (cheap) tuition is out of the question for me. Cost of living is less than in US, even in Sydney.

2) PBL -- I prefer to learn by being given direction, then researching on my own, rather than learning via lecture. I also prefer hands-on learning (clinical time from the start).

3) Different culture -- not radically different, but different enough to pique my interest.

4) Location -- S. Pacific, which I've always wanted to explore.

5) Less reliance on technology -- I have a very technical background, but plan to practice in the 3rd or "2nd" (usu. reserved for socialist) World, where tech is limited.

6) Good rep of the Aus. schools, in US (i.e., residency) and, more importantly, in 3rd World.

7) Possibility of becoming an Aus. citizen (via marriage or military service), which would allow better safety if practicing in areas not friendly to Americans (e.g., most of Middle East).

Reasons not to apply to other Int'l schools:

1) Didn't like Ireland much.
2) Didn't want stigma of Caribbean, nor a school whose main purpose is to prep for USMLE + US practice.
3) Israel was attractive, but family concerns over safety have made me re-consider.
4) Qatar (Cornell) out of my league.
5) GEMP (UK) looked attractive, but didn't want the hassle of applying through separate process, plus I'd be attending school in Aus. before getting interviews in UK; therefore, would only serve as a "backup" (maybe I'll regret that!).

I'm not concerned with some of the hassles of doing the Aus. route, such as independent prep for USMLE, and I don't do much of anything conventionally, ever.

-Pitman

- cost of living is definately cheaper in Australia than in the US, but keep in mind that the US dollar is sinking pretty badly

-you can't become an Australian citizen via "Military service" i don't know where you heard this, but its not possible.

-if you plan correctly you can stay in Australia...i honestly think (with all the first hand research I have done) that the docs here are less worked compared w/ US docs. And you don't get stuck as a house officer forever unlike in the UK/Ireland

- Less litigation problems

- friendly ppl.

-beautiful weather (unless u are going to school in California or Hawaii or some of the southern states)

-some security unlike in the caribbean where you go to the US or you are stuffed...

Cheers.

RSE

http://www.studentbmj.com/back_issues/0297/data/0297sl1.htm

good article with balanced points on australia...might not apply to us since we are australian trained grads.

 

[pitman]

Originally posted by redshifteffect
-you can't become an Australian citizen via "Military service" i don't know where you heard this, but its not possible.

Careful...as a perm. resident, you most certainly can:

(navy) http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/careers_explorer/Navy337.html
(army) http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/careers_explorer/Army336.html
(air force) http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/careers_explorer/RAAFMain.html

In part:

Citizenship Requirement

Citizenship requirements will be met, for Full-time and Part-time applicants, if any of the following apply:

* You are an Australian citizen;

* You are a permanent resident who can provide a DIMIA (Department of Immigration and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs) receipt to prove you have applied for Australian citizenship. (A permanent resident is generally eligible to apply for citizenship after two years. A permanent resident married to an Australian can apply immediately); or

* You are a permanent resident who is not eligible to apply for Australian citizenship but are prepared to sign an undertaking to apply after completing 90 days service in the ADF or 130 days part-time aggregated service in the ADF Reserve. (Permanent residents become eligible to apply for citizenship on completion of 90 days service in the ADF or 130 days part-time aggregated service in the ADF Reserve).

-pitman

 

[redshifteffect]

Yeah that's true...you can do it as a PR...but I thought he meant that he could get his citizenship just by doing Military service (ie without even getting a PR) - which is definately impossible.

Basically if you are not an Australian citizen but would like to become one you will have to go along the following steps:

Get a PR
Wait two years and apply for your citizenship

There are numerous ways to get the PR but joining the military is not one of these ways.

 

[pitman]

Yeah, I never thought the process would be *easy*, just as falling in love with/marrying an Aussie wouldn't be.. but the options are there for the determined .

-pitman

 

[redshifteffect]

Thats the best way to get the PR At least the choices here are good

 

[irisheyes]

hello lexy,
I just stumbled on this thread, and noticed that you have not considered Ross. I will be attending there in january and just wondered if you had considered it. they do not require sn MCAT for january 2004 or may 2004. you can graduate in 3 yrs and 4 months, and you would have a strong chance of getting accepted given your nursing background. The degree is recognised by all fifty states, all clinical rotations are done in the U.S and you only have to spend 16 months on dominica. I do not want to come off as a salesman for Ross. I am not. To each their own. It is just that given your desire to qualify as quickly as possible while incurring a minimal amount of debt I was wondering why you have not considered this option. I did not mention SGU as I believe they do require an MCAT. Whatever you decide best of luck!!

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by The Pill Counter
Lexy, I'd say your best bet is Newcastle, for starters, it's five years, so you save a year off the other undergrad schools. James Cook is a spin off of our northern tropical division. We used to be able to rotate in Townsville and Cairns, but those sites are now the primary JCU hospitals. The school itself is new, but I'm sure the teaching is just a continuation of what they used to put UQ students through.
Remember, most American residencies fully qualify you to write the corresponding RCPSC or CCFP exam, and the ones that aren't just require another year of residency before you are eligible. US is still the best bet if you want to return to Canada.

Careful!!!!!

Read the following:

___________________________________
Good morning Doctor:

Further to your request for information regarding the Statement of Need letter to process a J1 visa, please review the attached document.

Provided that ALL the required documentation is submitted, we will require approximately one week to process your application.

The Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada will recognize United States specialty training provided that it is undertaken as a resident in a specialty or subspecialty residency program accredited by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education. PLEASE NOTE THAT FAMILY MEDICINE IS NOT ONE OF THE SPECIALTIES RECOGNIZED BY THE ROYAL COLLEGE OF PHYSICIANS AND SURGEONS OF CANADA. You should contact Health Canada for information on how to obtain approval of Family Medicine training.

Once the training that your will undertake in an ACGME approved program is found eligible for full or partial credit towards an RCPSC recognized specialty or subspecialty, a letter will be sent to Health Canada and to you electronically. The original of the letter along with pertinent information will be sent to you by regular mail.

If you should require additional information, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Sincerely,

Maritza Boreka
Credentials Unit
Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada
Le Coll?ge royal des m?decins et chirurgiens du Canada
774 promenade Echo Drive
Ottawa, ON K1S 5N8
(613) 730-8191/1357
(613) 730-3707 (fax)
1-800-668-3740/1357 (toll free)
[email protected]
Visit the College website at:rcpsc.medical.org

__________________________________]

You can see clearly that the Family training program is NOT recognized in Canada even though its 1 YEAR longer than the Canadian equivalent...I have seen a lot of "rumours" floating around that if you do an extra year in the US it will be recognized ...this is not the case. YOu may be able to get some partial credits but then you will be stuck trying to complete your residency in Canada, which as we all know is IMPOSSIBLE...(or nearly).

Your best bet Lexy is to finish your post graduate training in Australia and then try and immigrate back to Canada. Newfoundland will definately give you a provisional license while completing your licensing requirements..please read the following site:

www.nlhba.nf.ca/PR_FAQ.htm


P.S. i know that a lot of you are not interested in the family med program but trust me a lot of other programs are not recognized either, I know Psychiatry isn't.

-Also I realize that for some reason Newfies recognized US training, but the RCPSC does not...weird

 

[redshifteffect]

(Monash, UWA, James Cook, Adelaide, Newcastle), and what is meant to be, is meant to be.
So you are right about the schools I applied to. Yes I may be limiting myself, but I chose thoses 5 specific schools for that exact reason.... no MCAT required.
James Cook is actaully my last choice, between us. I know the least about that school. I know a few people in first year at Newcastle, and the program is very similar to McMasters (Canadian) (PBL, limited didactic, etc). Newcastle is definately my first choice.
As an Australian, what kind of reputation does Adelaide and Newcastle have? [/B]

Lexie, I'm speaking here as an undergrad med student...in Australia itself the undergrad schools are more respected than the post grad ones only because they have been around longer and all the registrars were trained in them.

To get into a training program here is more about policitcs than your marks since a lot of school don't even mark you in your clinical years. There are no standardized tests like the USMLE so they can't even judge you on that.

Also remember there is a "stigma" associated with post grad medical schools since the registrars believe that the australians in these schools couldn't get into medical school as an undergrad (i know this isn't true!!)

All I'm saying is that if you plan to stay here, the fact that you will have to get a PR to do your training already puts you at a slight disadvantage so the time you save by going to a post grad school may only give you some headaches down the road.

Good luck.

Disclaimer...

(Better make myself clear b4 I get flamed)

POST GRAD SCHOOLS HAVE GREAT EDUCATION i'm not trying to insult them AT ALL!!!

Just trying to explain how the "politics" works here...this is what I've gotten from registrars/consultants/students.

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by The Pill Counter
Coastal, Lexy, in all due respect, you guys don't have a clue. I'm Canadian and a couple of years further ahead on the road that winds through Australia.
Your views on getting a residency (and of all things Ortho) are way, way too optimistic. Spend some time on carms.ca, look at the stats, look at the provincial restrictions, understand some of the challenges, and by all means make the trip, but know what you're getting into.
Secondly, all undergrad programs require UMAT (except one, I think) and all grad-entry require GAMSAT/MCAT.

UMAT as far as i know is for local students only...my school doesn't require it for internationals. Even if they do UMAT is a piece of cake...it's just puzzles and verbal reasoning you don't even have to study for it!

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by crackerj
And for the Pill Counter, I want to correct something...

For international students, only Uni of NSW and Uni of Western Australia require UMAT... for other unis, you do not need UMAT...

Of course, for all postgraduate medicine, you need GAMSAT/MCAT...

Whoops crackerj already answered this question...

 

[The Pill Counter]

Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada don't oversee Family Physicians, that's the role of the College of Family Physicians of Canada. From their website:

B) Graduates of Family Medicine Residency Programs Accredited by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME)
All applicants who are graduates of ACGME accredited family medicine residency programs who are seeking eligibility to sit the Certification Examination in Family Medicine must either be members of the College of Family Physicians of Canada or must submit an application for membership at the time they apply to sit the examination. They must be members at the time they sit the examination.
Applicants must provide proof of registration in an ACGME-accredited residency training program in Family Medicine.
Applicants from ACGME accredited family medicine residency programs are eligible to sit the examination during the last six months of their training programs.
Certification in the College of Family Physicians of Canada (CCFP)will be granted when the candidate has:
a) Successfully completed the CFPC Certification Examination in Family Medicine;
b) Successfully completed ACGME accredited post-graduate training in family medicine as verified by the family medicine postgraduate director;
c) Become a Diplomate of the American Board of Family Practice.

You're off the ball red, ACGME family medicine programs are recognised.

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by Kimberli Cox
While I sympathise with your desire to work with indigenous populations and understand that you have no plans to do further training in Canada or the US, are you aware of the difficulties in staying in Oz after graduation?

Regardless of your interests, you may find that staying beyond a year or two, or emigrating will be very difficult.

Kim,

I have done EXTENSIVE research on this and this is what I have found out:

IF you want to stay in Australia you will require a PR to do training (ie residency) This is not that difficult to do if you meet the following requirements:

-If you have completed your medical school training in a rural area or area where there is a shortage of doctors (not sydney/Melbourne) you get an extra 5 pts on the points test. This helps a lot

-if you have a previous degree in an critical shortage area you get upto 60 + some extra pts. (nursing is one of these areas!)

-Finally if you have none of the above then after you secure a residency (100% at my school for internationals that want to stay) then you can apply to be an RMO at a hospital in an underserved area...which is pretty much everywhere except sydney/melbourne YES EVEN ADELAIDE
if you can secure a 2 year contract as an RMO (make sure it's 2 years and not 1 year) you can apply for a PR under a special category....

Many malaysians have attempted to stay here this way and its worked for most of them....I don't see why so many people say it's impossible to stay here, it's not!! You just have to be a "clever" and maximize your chances in staying.

www.immi.gov.au check out the points test, you may already qualify!

Finally I know for a lot of US grads Aus is not a good option, but trust me as a Canadian I can point out the differences in lifestyle between Australia and Canada

Australian docs make more money because of the fact that there's a private system, also they work less than Canadian/US ones. Trust me its not that bad an alternative.