Why can't we talk about IQ?

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What should become obvious is that the left denies many of these scientific facts because it offends ideas they hold dear, but then they are completely condescending when the right denies evolution for the very same reasons. I wish that hypocrisy would be pointed out much more than it is.
 
What should become obvious is that the left denies many of these scientific facts because it offends ideas they hold dear, but then they are completely condescending when the right denies evolution for the very same reasons. I wish that hypocrisy would be pointed out much more than it is.

Can we stick to what people in here have said, rather than arguing about what might have been said elsewhere in a pointless political discussion?
 
What should become obvious is that the left denies many of these scientific facts because it offends ideas they hold dear, but then they are completely condescending when the right denies evolution for the very same reasons. I wish that hypocrisy would be pointed out much more than it is.

Good job addressing the criticism that have been offered by numerous posters here.

On the other hand OP is a great example of why we shouldn't think success in life is contingent on intelligence.
 
Good job addressing the criticism that have been offered by numerous posters here.

On the other hand OP is a great example of why we shouldn't think success in life is contingent on intelligence.

Wait, are you being sarcastic? Please, please say 'yes', cuz I just don't see it. Most of the discussion hasn't come anywhere CLOSE to what he's talking about!
 
Wait, are you being sarcastic? Please, please say 'yes', cuz I just don't see it. Most of the discussion hasn't come anywhere CLOSE to what he's talking about!

Yes. I am
 
What should become obvious is that the left denies many of these scientific facts because it offends ideas they hold dear, but then they are completely condescending when the right denies evolution for the very same reasons. I wish that hypocrisy would be pointed out much more than it is.

Do you really think that IQ tests and Evolution are equivalent here? You seem to be saying that it's scientific fact that races have genetically different intelligence levels, which is highly debatable and controversial at best and blatantly racist at worst. And then you're comparing that with EVOLUTION, which has mountains of evidence, describes a very observable phenomenon, and is about as settled as a scientific theory can be. You're a doctor?! 😕
 
Personally, I think that IQ tests do serve some purpose. They do well at diagnosing extreme disability or extreme ability. For instance, in a first grade class, the child with a very low IQ who isn't reading well may do poorly on classroom exercises, while the child with a high IQ and severe dyslexia may do just as poorly on those same exercises. The interventions will be drastically different for both students. On the flip side, a child in a very bad environment (such as an inner city school like the one I attended) may score very high on an IQ test and be granted access to a better school (such as in NYC) with more resources and connections to opportunities that this child might not have had at the old school (talent search programs, mentorships...).

As a personal example, I grew up next to a crack house and was stuck in a school that couldn't afford books until my parents had me take the SAT as a kid and I was able to qualify for the Study of Exceptional Talent, which provided me with opportunities for research and mentorship, as well as an opportunity to start college rather than stay at that school.

Other than that, I'm not sure it means too much. Is there really a difference between the kid with a 100 IQ and the kid with a 110 IQ? Probably not. Is there a difference between the kid with a 100 IQ and the kid with a 150 IQ? Probably.
 
Personally, I think that IQ tests do serve some purpose. They do well at diagnosing extreme disability or extreme ability. For instance, in a first grade class, the child with a very low IQ who isn't reading well may do poorly on classroom exercises, while the child with a high IQ and severe dyslexia may do just as poorly on those same exercises. The interventions will be drastically different for both students. On the flip side, a child in a very bad environment (such as an inner city school like the one I attended) may score very high on an IQ test and be granted access to a better school (such as in NYC) with more resources and connections to opportunities that this child might not have had at the old school (talent search programs, mentorships...).

As a personal example, I grew up next to a crack house and was stuck in a school that couldn't afford books until my parents had me take the SAT as a kid and I was able to qualify for the Study of Exceptional Talent, which provided me with opportunities for research and mentorship, as well as an opportunity to start college rather than stay at that school.

Other than that, I'm not sure it means too much. Is there really a difference between the kid with a 100 IQ and the kid with a 110 IQ? Probably not. Is there a difference between the kid with a 100 IQ and the kid with a 150 IQ? Probably.

Yeah, I was under the impression that IQ tests are really only useful so you can identify people with serious deficits so that they can get the extra help they need. Really, we're only concerned about whether or not your IQ is below 70 or so.
 
Do you really think that IQ tests and Evolution are equivalent here? You seem to be saying that it's scientific fact that races have genetically different intelligence levels, which is highly debatable and controversial at best and blatantly racist at worst. And then you're comparing that with EVOLUTION, which has mountains of evidence, describes a very observable phenomenon, and is about as settled as a scientific theory can be.

Did you even read the article?
 
What should become obvious is that the left denies many of these scientific facts because it offends ideas they hold dear, but then they are completely condescending when the right denies evolution for the very same reasons. I wish that hypocrisy would be pointed out much more than it is.

IQ evidence is challenged by researchers of all races and political leanings. Many consider the evidence incomplete and aren't completely closed to accepting it if it were proven, whereas the evidence of evolution is overwhelming, proven and the challenges are despite proven evidence. The fact that you compare both shows a lack of scientific appreciation and knowledge.
 
Do you really think that IQ tests and Evolution are equivalent here? You seem to be saying that it's scientific fact that races have genetically different intelligence levels, which is highly debatable and controversial at best and blatantly racist at worst. And then you're comparing that with EVOLUTION, which has mountains of evidence, describes a very observable phenomenon, and is about as settled as a scientific theory can be. You're a doctor?! 😕

It's really only controversial because it is racist.

If you accept that there are differences in physical attributes, disease vulnerabilities, and basically every other facet of humanity that can be attributed to genetics, why not intelligence?
 
It's really only controversial because it is racist.

If you accept that there are differences in physical attributes, disease vulnerabilities, and basically every other facet of humanity that can be attributed to genetics, why not intelligence?

Ok, no. The science here says that when you group people along racial lines and give them IQ tests, the average score is different for each race. It does not say that these differences are genetic. Richwine is interpreting it that way, but he has no sound reason to do so. IQ has a genetic and environmental component and nobody should be disputing that. But it doesn't follow from there that if I have a higher IQ than you, it's because of my genes.

All of these different facets of humanity you mention have different heritability. IQ is estimated to have .5 heritability. This means that all other things being equal, which they never are, only about half of your cognitive ability is accounted for by your genes. If you take two different people and somehow put them in the exact same environment, from the prenatal environment onward, then you could tease apart genetic differences in IQ. But you cannot. There are about a million reasons why certain groups would have environmentally affected IQ scores. The test itself doesn't even have to be biased for cultural biases to affect the results.

For Richwine to act like it should be common knowledge that IQ is genetic and race differences are evidence that some races are inherently smarter than others is a huge mistake. For all of his Harvard education that he's so proud of, he should be smarter than that. It says to me that he came to that conclusion so easily because he wanted to, i.e. he's trying to justify his racism.
 
Ok, no. The science here says that when you group people along racial lines and give them IQ tests, the average score is different for each race. It does not say that these differences are genetic. Richwine is interpreting it that way, but he has no sound reason to do so. IQ has a genetic and environmental component and nobody should be disputing that. But it doesn't follow from there that if I have a higher IQ than you, it's because of my genes.

All of these different facets of humanity you mention have different heritability. IQ is estimated to have .5 heritability. This means that all other things being equal, which they never are, only about half of your cognitive ability is accounted for by your genes. If you take two different people and somehow put them in the exact same environment, from the prenatal environment onward, then you could tease apart genetic differences in IQ. But you cannot. There are about a million reasons why certain groups would have environmentally affected IQ scores. The test itself doesn't even have to be biased for cultural biases to affect the results.

For Richwine to act like it should be common knowledge that IQ is genetic and race differences are evidence that some races are inherently smarter than others is a huge mistake. For all of his Harvard education that he's so proud of, he should be smarter than that. It says to me that he came to that conclusion so easily because he wanted to, i.e. he's trying to justify his racism.

I'm confused by what you're saying. If 50% is inherited, that inherently implies that groups are not equally intelligent. Regardless of how the environmental 50% affects intelligence.
 
I'm confused by what you're saying. If 50% is inherited, that inherently implies that groups are not equally intelligent. Regardless of how the environmental 50% affects intelligence.

Why does it imply that? "Inherited" is different from "heritability." Heritability is an estimate of how much variability within a specific trait for a population is caused by genes.
 
Ok, no. The science here says that when you group people along racial lines and give them IQ tests, the average score is different for each race. It does not say that these differences are genetic. Richwine is interpreting it that way, but he has no sound reason to do so. IQ has a genetic and environmental component and nobody should be disputing that. But it doesn't follow from there that if I have a higher IQ than you, it's because of my genes.

All of these different facets of humanity you mention have different heritability. IQ is estimated to have .5 heritability. This means that all other things being equal, which they never are, only about half of your cognitive ability is accounted for by your genes. If you take two different people and somehow put them in the exact same environment, from the prenatal environment onward, then you could tease apart genetic differences in IQ. But you cannot. There are about a million reasons why certain groups would have environmentally affected IQ scores. The test itself doesn't even have to be biased for cultural biases to affect the results.

For Richwine to act like it should be common knowledge that IQ is genetic and race differences are evidence that some races are inherently smarter than others is a huge mistake. For all of his Harvard education that he's so proud of, he should be smarter than that. It says to me that he came to that conclusion so easily because he wanted to, i.e. he's trying to justify his racism.

Are you obtuse or are you trying that hard to believe that groups of people who evolved in quite different environments somehow managed to not have differences in their brains.
 
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IQ can be misleading. And it's definitely not a good test of intelligence in the sense that it focuses only on one kind of intelligence. There's an autistic kid known as "the human camera" who can visit a place once and draw a very detailed almost perfect panoramic drawing of that place... From memory. Don't try and tell me that's not some form of intelligence, despite his IQ being probably around 70. It can be useful. But there are even more factors that diminish its usefulness, such as if someone has practiced taking IQ tests... That person will probably score higher knowing all too well how the test is structured.

Beat me to it. +10000

My dad's friend who has a master's in nuclear engineering, but he is a truck driver. He said that he hates sitting at a desk all day, so I don't get his thinking with regards to sitting in a truck all day. As far as IQ goes, I think it's what you do with your brain (up to a certain point).
 
Are you obtuse or are you trying that hard to believe that groups of people who evolved in quite different environments somehow managed to not have differences in their brains.

Your argument is flawed and shows lack of understand of human evolution.

Homo Sapiens evolved around 200,000 years ago according to most estimates. The branching out happened much later and different groups spread all over the place. We are clearly still the same species and with a lot of interbreeding and cultural learning going on. Even more so today. To make some sort of an argument that there is an actual difference in the brains that has been selected for in different populations is foolish and not at all historically, morphological let, or phylogenetically accurate. You can make this case for some easy trait like lactose tolerance, skin color, sickle cell anemia. But to take something as complex as intelligence, disregarding historical development (let's not forget "western civilization" has been more "primitive" for most of human history) and claim that some groups are clearly more generically evolved than others is preposterous.
 
Are you obtuse or are you trying that hard to believe that groups of people who evolved in quite different environments somehow managed to not have differences in their brains.

Why are you trying so hard to believe that intelligence is so uncomplicated? Do you actually think that there is a scientific consensus on the reason for group differences in IQ? Just because this Richwine dude said so in an op-ed piece?

People don't like Richwine for reeeeeeally good reasons. It's kinda pitiful to watch him whine about it in a major publication. He thinks people are angry because they're in denial about his "science?" Obviously, people are angry because he's suggesting things like, "IQ selection might be incorporated, as one factor among many, into immigration policy." Seriously! Like we're about to tell people they can't live in America because we think they're dummies and they might lose us money?! What's next, eugenics?!
 
Actually one line of thinking for why Ashkenazi Jews have such high IQ's is because historically they weren't allowed to do most jobs except for banking/trading type jobs. These kinds of jobs required a lot of verbal/mathematical skills, so the theory is that this selected for high IQ people, who were able to have more kids. And this is only over the past thousand years or so. There's also the idea that since talmudic scholarship was so valued, this had an effect as well.



Humans aren't really very different from breeds of dogs.

I've heard the theory about Talmudic scholarship. Specifically that identifying as a Jew required a lot of educational effort. It was relatively difficult to obtain, expensive and time-consuming. So many, if not most Jews, ended up leaving this tradition behind and assimilating with the rest of the population while a small-upper class community whose membership required education persisted. I don't think this example tell us a lot whether it is culture or genetics though. You could still argue for either. Also as you mentioned 1000 or so years is too little time on evolutionary scale unless you're talking about some aggressive dog-breeding program or insect resistance.
 
Are you obtuse or are you trying that hard to believe that groups of people who evolved in quite different environments somehow managed to not have differences in their brains.

The above is valid and quite probably true.

What you're missing is that intelligence is a wide and varied term. IQ isn't really a good measure of anything other than performance on an IQ test. Could some groups have better spacial reasoning than others? Probably. Could some perform better in abstract processing while still others excel in mumbers manipulations (while sucking at driving, obviously)? Probably!

Its absurd to assume the differences that resulted from thousands of years of independent evolution had impacts that were restricted solely to the lower epidermis. Anyone who thinks so is either delusional or ignorant to the fact that evolution is a continuous and fluid process.

But nothing you've said yet demonstrates the value of the IQ NPR have you established its role in measuring the concept of "intelligence". People with high IQs are arguably better at taking IQ tests than those with lower scores. That's about all that can be reasonably concluded. Its also difficult to the point of impossibility to remove all cultural bias from written tests which convolutes the issue.
 
Your argument is flawed and shows lack of understand of human evolution.

Homo Sapiens evolved around 200,000 years ago according to most estimates. The branching out happened much later and different groups spread all over the place. We are clearly still the same species and with a lot of interbreeding and cultural learning going on. Even more so today. To make some sort of an argument that there is an actual difference in the brains that has been selected for in different populations is foolish and not at all historically, morphological let, or phylogenetically accurate. You can make this case for some easy trait like lactose tolerance, skin color, sickle cell anemia. But to take something as complex as intelligence, disregarding historical development (let's not forget "western civilization" has been more "primitive" for most of human history) and claim that some groups are clearly more generically evolved than others is preposterous.

You seem to think that evolution occurs in succinct and parceled increments. It doesn't. "Same species" doesn't mean anything here. Do you believe that different breeds of dogs have measurable differences in [insert characteristic here]? Dog breeds are an exaggeration of evolutionary processes (albeit artificially directed). The isolation that produced human races is the same isolation responsible for species in general.

Your argument shouldn't be that human races can't have differences other than skin color (a scientifically false statement) but rather that even allowing for the existence of such differences, his method for quantifying the differences is inadequate.
 
Is that such a bad thing? 😕

Do you think denying people access to the U.S. because some people perceive them as belonging to intellectually inferior group is a good thing?
 
You seem to think that evolution occurs in succinct and parceled increments. It doesn't. "Same species" doesn't mean anything here. Do you believe that different breeds of dogs have measurable differences in [insert characteristic here]? Dog breeds are an exaggeration of evolutionary processes (albeit artificially directed). The isolation that produced human races is the same isolation responsible for species in general.

Your argument shouldn't be that human races can't have differences other than skin color (a scientifically false statement) but rather that even allowing for the existence of such differences, his method for quantifying the differences is inadequate.

That's not exactly what I was trying to say. There are certainly differences between races but to make an inference that one race clearly possesses certain characteristics of a complex trait like intelligence while another doesn't is too simplistic and simply not the case.
 
That's not exactly what I was trying to say. There are certainly differences between races but to make an inference that one race clearly possesses certain characteristics of a complex trait like intelligence while another doesn't is too simplistic and simply not the case.

No... It probably is the case. We just can't say with any reasonable certainty which races have more and which have less. Just because a difference isn't measurable doesn't mean it doesn't exist. We had the naked eye before the magnifying glass, which preceded the microscope, which existed before the SEM. Our definition of "measurable difference" is dependent upon the tools for measurement available to us.

Now... that said... is the difference meaningful? That's a whole other issue.

P.s. I'm agreeing with you overall. I just still feel like you're taking the position that all races are of equal intelligence which is about as reasonable as the claim that we are the only intelligent life in this infinite universe. I'm just trying to drive home the point that a difference is likely to be there. But the current tools are similar to measuring bond lengths with a yard stick.
 
No... It probably is the case. We just can't say with any reasonable certainty which races have more and which have less. Just because a difference isn't measurable doesn't mean it doesn't exist. We had the naked eye before the magnifying glass, which preceded the microscope, which existed before the SEM. Our definition of "measurable difference" is dependent upon the tools for measurement available to us.

Now... that said... is the difference meaningful? That's a whole other issue.

P.s. I'm agreeing with you overall. I just still feel like you're taking the position that all races are of equal intelligence which is about as reasonable as the claim that we are the only intelligent life in this infinite universe. I'm just trying to drive home the point that a difference is likely to be there. But the current tools are similar to measuring bond lengths with a yard stick.

I see what you're saying and am not disagreeing with you. I guess I just feel that intelligence as a term is something that is too difficult to define to draw any conclusions about similarities or differences between different groups and its genetic components. That's why I feel uncomfortable saying that there are clear differences in intelligence between different groups of people that are inheritable. I am not saying there aren't any, I would just prefer to reserve my judgement altogether and talk about fitness or adaptations in the context of evolution rather than intelligence.
 
Inviting people to the U.S. who have the intellectual capacity to work as walmart greeters is a stupid move.

I understand it would be more charitable to take everyone in and to provide for them, but I care more about the integrity of the country as it stands, and flooding it with "intellectually inferior" people as you call them is actually a legitimate problem, especially when there are no jobs for them anyway. Their only recourse will be to become dependent on the state, who buys their votes with welfare checks.

Someone will end up suffering for it 😳 (taxes)

You honestly feel this way or are you just trolling me?
 
Inviting people to the U.S. who have the intellectual capacity to work as walmart greeters is a stupid move.

I understand it would be more charitable to take everyone in and to provide for them, but I care more about the integrity of the country as it stands, and flooding it with "intellectually inferior" people as you call them is actually a legitimate problem, especially when there are no jobs for them anyway. Their only recourse will be to become dependent on the state, who buys their votes with welfare checks.

Someone will end up suffering for it 😳 (taxes)

First of all, human beings have intrinsic value and I'm not about to devalue a person based on some twisted reasoning about how they might affect the economy.

Second, I don't see why you think people with lower IQ's are going to be a drag on the system. Clearly, we already have a huge variety of people living here doing all kinds of jobs. There are smart people working ****ty, low-paying jobs and dumb people working relatively good jobs. Have you ever had a job?
 
I see what you're saying and am not disagreeing with you. I guess I just feel that intelligence as a term is something that is too difficult to define to draw any conclusions about similarities or differences between different groups and its genetic components. That's why I feel uncomfortable saying that there are clear differences in intelligence between different groups of people that are inheritable. I am not saying there aren't any, I would just prefer to reserve my judgement altogether and talk about fitness or adaptations in the context of evolution rather than intelligence.

I suppose that's fair. I tend to approach any issue with the assumption that an answer exists. We may not have the answer, and we may not even have the means to obtain the answer. But it exists. We've already discussed things like social factors which heavily influence academic success. The noise that this factor throws into the "equation" is so great that we can't make any conclusions at all. For example, I have seen no evidence at all to suggest that inner city African Americans aren't heads and tails more naturally intelligent than whites and that it is just a matter of social and cultural factors that results in lower scores according to one test or testing strategy.

Testing strategy: This needs to be fleshed out, too. If I have a need for people with specific skills I can generate a test that will assess the various levels of said skill that any person has. I can take any person or group of people and place them precisely along this line that I have arbitrarily drawn in the sand and I can say with reasonable certainty that people at one end of the line will be better suited for my task than those at another end of the line. Does this make them better people? I dunno. I couldn't conclude that, anyways, as the test in no way attempted to assess that.

This is what the OP is trying to do with the IQ test. As you've alluded to, "intelligence" as a term defines nearly everything within the realm of non-physical human ability. There is spatial intelligence, mathematical intelligence, "street smarts", musical intelligence, so on and so forth. The IQ test doesn't even approach assessing all of the identified and named facets of "intelligence". It is, at best, an imperfect way of assessing the pattern recognition, verbal reasoning, and a little bit of reaction time and fluidity of thought. It has no way of accounting for the myriad of non-genetic variables that influence one's intelligence.

Another issue is that IQ is treated as if it occurs in a vacuum. We seem to ignore the fact that humanity is a social race which teaches its members. The knowledge (and knowledge shapes the way you reason) of older generations is passed on. Basically, what I am saying is that there are people who may be operating on lower RAM that have been taught things and had their rational approach to problem solving molded by those things in ways that other people operating with significantly more RAM haven't.

So IQ can be useful in determining an individual's ability in the areas tested as compared to other individuals. IQ makes no attempt whatsoever to determine the cause for such differences. If we were granted a magical head scanner which could spit out a person's raw genetic ability to process information, the likelihood that the races are all actually equal is essentially zero. IQ measurement isn't that tool, and even if we had it, nobody can say with the info we have now that the differences would be at all meaningful.
 
I'm just an internet quarterback here. But if you're picking players for your team, you want the ones who will win the game.

From your point of view every player is a special snowflake deserving of playing in the NFL, and physical fitness tests are unfair and all that. But you will never have a good team if you don't find some way to discriminate between players.

Guys want to be with girls that are beautiful.
Girls want guys that are funny (or rich).
Companies want hard workers.
Colleges want smart students.
Football teams want athletic players.

In each case there are certain criteria to meet. If the criteria are unfair, that is because life is unfair. As a pre-med you want to be a doctor more than anything in the world, probably- and yet that is less important than the all important question- Do you have the competence required?

Anyways, I hope my analogies didn't obfuscate this any further.

We haven't kicked you out of the country yet, so why would we start intelligence discrimination now? 😛

"Give me your privileged, your able-bodied, your ambitious masses yearning to make money . . ." Classic Americana. That's how we became a great nation: by being totally judgmental and highly selective on who gets to join our club.
 
First of all, human beings have intrinsic value

Do they, though? :naughty: I seriously doubt you've explored for yourself where this "value" comes from and have taken it at face value and regurgitated it back whenever it seems relevant. I'd ask you to answer that, but we both know the answer will sound very contrived, as if it were from the rubber stamp that slaps the same forced nonsense of the personal statements of every pre-med ever (myself included. we've all been there). "Value" is a subjective concept. I'd urge you to think about why, and how this pertains to human life. I'd argue that the value of a human life is not intrinsic. It isn't some omni-present force that simply "is".

The value in human life is based only on a globally beneficial social contract. There is always someone else out there who is bigger, smarter, faster, better than you are. Drawing lines in the sand always leaves someone just on either side of the line, and the more lines that get drawn the more and more likely you will end up on the wrong side of it. The "intrinsic value" of human life is just a flashy and overly emotional way of saying that line drawing is simply bad juju.
 
I'm just an internet quarterback here. But if you're picking players for your team, you want the ones who will win the game.

From your point of view every player is a special snowflake deserving of playing in the NFL, and physical fitness tests are unfair and all that. But you will never have a good team if you don't find some way to discriminate between players.

Guys want to be with girls that are beautiful.
Girls want guys that are funny (or rich).
Companies want hard workers.
Colleges want smart students.
Football teams want athletic players.

In each case there are certain criteria to meet. If the criteria are unfair, that is because life is unfair. As a pre-med you want to be a doctor more than anything in the world, probably- and yet that is less important than the all important question- Do you have the competence required?

Anyways, I hope my analogies didn't obfuscate this any further.

Success = effort + ability + luck. Without tremendous effort none of the players on the roster would be in the NFL. You will never be able to select a successful football team knowing only genetic makeup of the players.
 
Do they, though? :naughty: I seriously doubt you've explored for yourself where this "value" comes from and have taken it at face value and regurgitated it back whenever it seems relevant. I'd ask you to answer that, but we both know the answer will sound very contrived, as if it were from the rubber stamp that slaps the same forced nonsense of the personal statements of every pre-med ever (myself included. we've all been there). "Value" is a subjective concept. I'd urge you to think about why, and how this pertains to human life. I'd argue that the value of a human life is not intrinsic. It isn't some omni-present force that simply "is".

The value in human life is based only on a globally beneficial social contract. There is always someone else out there who is bigger, smarter, faster, better than you are. Drawing lines in the sand always leaves someone just on either side of the line, and the more lines that get drawn the more and more likely you will end up on the wrong side of it. The "intrinsic value" of human life is just a flashy and overly emotional way of saying that line drawing is simply bad juju.

Ok, do you really want to know why I personally believe that every human life has intrinsic value? I think that because the universe is incredibly vast, both in time and space, and the overwhelming majority of particles that exist have probably never participated in life. Even fewer have become self-aware. So I think that the life that does exist here is valuable if only for its rarity. Even among the bacteria, plants, and animals on Earth, humans are more rare and valuable for their amazing complexity. It doesn't matter what the person's IQ is or if they're good or evil or whatever.
 
Ok, do you really want to know why I personally believe that every human life has intrinsic value? I think that because the universe is incredibly vast, both in time and space, and the overwhelming majority of particles that exist have probably never participated in life. Even fewer have become self-aware. So I think that the life that does exist here is valuable if only for its rarity. Even among the bacteria, plants, and animals on Earth, humans are more rare and valuable for their amazing complexity. It doesn't matter what the person's IQ is or if they're good or evil or whatever.

I thought I said pretty clearly I didn't want an answer.
 
I think the reason people really don't bring up IQ is because if it's accurate, a person can't do much to change it. And things like that are generally pretty taboo- if the people who talk about it, it seems as if they are arrogant, and on the other spectrum people aren't comfortable talking about it.
 
I thought I said pretty clearly I didn't want an answer.

So you want to be able to tell me I'm full of ****, but I'm not supposed to defend my beliefs?

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Woah, dude, that's like, deep. 420 blazeit

Lol, you just posted that butthurt chart like 5 minutes ago and now you're making fun of me. Ok, buddy.
 
I'm just an internet quarterback here. But if you're picking players for your team, you want the ones who will win the game.

From your point of view every player is a special snowflake deserving of playing in the NFL, and physical fitness tests are unfair and all that. But you will never have a good team if you don't find some way to discriminate between players.

Guys want to be with girls that are beautiful.
Girls want guys that are funny (or rich).
Companies want hard workers.
Colleges want smart students.
Football teams want athletic players.

In each case there are certain criteria to meet. If the criteria are unfair, that is because life is unfair. As a pre-med you want to be a doctor more than anything in the world, probably- and yet that is less important than the all important question- Do you have the competence required?

Anyways, I hope my analogies didn't obfuscate this any further.

If you are in favor of making a certain IQ a requirement for citizenship, would you also be in favor of deporting people born in the US with low IQs? They're a drag on the system, right?
 
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