Why do DO schools not like high MCAT scores?

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Ailleurs

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I've heard that DO schools skip over students with high MCAT scores. I can see that they would pass over them if they already have good GPAs, thinking they'd be focusing only on MD schools, but what about high MCAT scores with mediocre GPAs (3.19 or so)?
 
I've heard that DO schools skip over students with high MCAT scores. I can see that they would pass over them if they already have good GPAs, thinking they'd be focusing only on MD schools, but what about high MCAT scores with mediocre GPAs (3.19 or so)?

Depends on how high the MCAT is. A 3.2+/3.2+ cGPA and a sGPA with a high MCAT (32+) should be able to generate a good amount of ii's.
 
if you're applying with a 40 they figure that you won't actually go there so they don't want to waste their time with you. so that being said, you better have a damn good reason for osteopathic medicine if you score that high and want to go DO
 
if you're applying with a 40 they figure that you won't actually go there so they don't want to waste their time with you. so that being said, you better have a damn good reason for osteopathic medicine if you score that high and want to go DO

Very true. If you are like a 3.19 GPA with a 40 MCAT and applying to DO, you definitely need a good reason.
 
I've heard that DO schools skip over students with high MCAT scores. I can see that they would pass over them if they already have good GPAs, thinking they'd be focusing only on MD schools, but what about high MCAT scores with mediocre GPAs (3.19 or so)?
You've heard wrong. Many schools have averages around 29-31, and that wouldn't happen if they skipped over good MCAT scores.
 
I've heard that DO schools skip over students with high MCAT scores. I can see that they would pass over them if they already have good GPAs, thinking they'd be focusing only on MD schools, but what about high MCAT scores with mediocre GPAs (3.19 or so)?
None of them skipped over my good MCAT (if a 36 falls in the "high" category)... so if you can convince them you're seriously interested and not going to pass over THEM, they won't pass over you. Schools are always looking to increase their averages.
 
Err, I would think they value high MCAT scores. However, I also think DO schools put a higher emphasis on clinical experience. Many people in my class were paramedics, pharmacists, nurses, etc. Sure you can have a 40 in your MCAT, but that person probably hasn't developed the ability to treat and talk to patients.
 
Err, I would think they value high MCAT scores. However, I also think DO schools put a higher emphasis on clinical experience. Many people in my class were paramedics, pharmacists, nurses, etc. Sure you can have a 40 in your MCAT, but that person probably hasn't developed the ability to treat and talk to patients.
Haha how would someone with a 40 not have people skills or life experience? It's just that high MCAT scores are generally correlated with high GPAs and thus people who would very often just apply DO as a safety.

However, if there is a convincing argument included in the application for wanting to go DO, no school would pass.
 
Haha how would someone with a 40 not have people skills or life experience? It's just that high MCAT scores are generally correlated with high GPAs and thus people who would very often just apply DO as a safety.

However, if there is a convincing argument included in the application for wanting to go DO, no school would pass.

True, I would argue the few people I know who scored 35+ were very well mannered and socially OK.
 
if you're applying with a 40 they figure that you won't actually go there so they don't want to waste their time with you. so that being said, you better have a damn good reason for osteopathic medicine if you score that high and want to go DO

Well I mean I have a super crappy gpa from college and after trying to do retakes for the classes I got C's/D's in, I still did poorly until I stepped up my game and started to get serious. With replacement grades I have 3.23 and I also have several (and I mean several) Ws.
 
I've retaken 12 courses so far 🙁 I'm not sure another year is worth the money and time spent to raise my gpa to that level.
 
stop with the pity party 🙂 it isn't making anything better. if this is your dream, you will do whatever it takes to achieve it! what is your MCAT?
 
I've heard that DO schools skip over students with high MCAT scores. I can see that they would pass over them if they already have good GPAs, thinking they'd be focusing only on MD schools, but what about high MCAT scores with mediocre GPAs (3.19 or so)?
That was my situation and a good MCAT definitely helped. DO schools do NOT ignore a solid MCAT.
 
You heard dead wrong. We pass over no one due to high numbers.

I've heard that DO schools skip over students with high MCAT scores. I can see that they would pass over them if they already have good GPAs, thinking they'd be focusing only on MD schools, but what about high MCAT scores with mediocre GPAs (3.19 or so)?

Wrongo! Drexel might think like this, but we don't. You wanna come to my school with a 40 MCAT, we'll take you.

if you're applying with a 40 they figure that you won't actually go there so they don't want to waste their time with you. so that being said, you better have a damn good reason for osteopathic medicine if you score that high and want to go DO
 
interesting. thank you goro, i've definitely heard that time and time again.
 
I had a 35/3.8- not super high, but high enough- and faced no challenges in DO admission. Aside from the usual challenges, anyway. My point is, the stats definitely didn't hurt.
 
You heard dead wrong. We pass over no one due to high numbers.

I've heard that DO schools skip over students with high MCAT scores. I can see that they would pass over them if they already have good GPAs, thinking they'd be focusing only on MD schools, but what about high MCAT scores with mediocre GPAs (3.19 or so)?

Wrongo! Drexel might think like this, but we don't. You wanna come to my school with a 40 MCAT, we'll take you.

if you're applying with a 40 they figure that you won't actually go there so they don't want to waste their time with you. so that being said, you better have a damn good reason for osteopathic medicine if you score that high and want to go DO

that's great to hear 🙂
 
Yep. I'm just saying... I was happy with a 36 but it's still not what I would consider "super high". Pulling these ranges mostly out of my ass, I personally think having a 3.8-4.0 and a moderate MCAT (~30) is more impressive than a 35-40 and a moderate GPA (~3.4) because of the cumulative work required to accomplish a near-perfect GPA.
 
I had a 35/3.8- not super high, but high enough- and faced no challenges in DO admission. Aside from the usual challenges, anyway. My point is, the stats definitely didn't hurt.

ybHkLGR.gif
 
You heard dead wrong. We pass over no one due to high numbers.

Wrongo! Drexel might think like this, but we don't. You wanna come to my school with a 40 MCAT, we'll take you.

if you're applying with a 40 they figure that you won't actually go there so they don't want to waste their time with you. so that being said, you better have a damn good reason for osteopathic medicine if you score that high and want to go DO

Thank you for saying this. I have a high 30s score and an otherwise strong application and I have deliberately chosen DO... and caught no end of crap for it here. SDN dogma says that DO is only for people who can't get into an MD school. I had begun to worry that I might have an uphill battle to convince DO schools that they are not my safety valves, that I truly want to go there.

The reasons that I will share are:

1) I know several exceptional doctors who were trained at the two schools that I am most interested in attending,
2) I feel that DO schools are more accepting of older nontrads like myself, and
3) DO schools have more of a clinical focus, which fits my ambitions better. Many MD schools seem to value research above clinic, so that you can't even graduate without conducting significant research. That is good for them, but not my thing.

What I probably won't explain in the interview is that I am glad that gunner pre-meds avoid DO at all costs. Because they underrate the education offered at those schools, I have seen them choose to reapply multiple times to MD programs rather than suffer the indignity of learning a little extra OMM. So, I figure that the percentage of my class which is comprised of douchey bro gunners will be lower than at an MD school. Given the great personality of almost every DO that I know compared to the egomania of many of the MD docs, I just think that I will get along with my classmates better at a DO school.

That isn't to say that every MD I know is a jerk. Say 8% jerk rate among MDs, 1% jerk rate among DOs that I know. It is anecdata, but statistically significant enough to convince me that I am seeing a real phenomenon.
 
stop with the pity party 🙂 it isn't making anything better. if this is your dream, you will do whatever it takes to achieve it! what is your MCAT?

Sorry for that lol. Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that even with an extra year of perfect 4.0 grades, it would bump my gpa up by .05 points, which is nowhere near close to a 3.5. Trying to achieve 3.5 would require several years 😛
 
Thank you for saying this. I have a high 30s score and an otherwise strong application and I have deliberately chosen DO... and caught no end of crap for it here. SDN dogma says that DO is only for people who can't get into an MD school. I had begun to worry that I might have an uphill battle to convince DO schools that they are not my safety valves, that I truly want to go there.

The reasons that I will share are:

1) I know several exceptional doctors who were trained at the two schools that I am most interested in attending,
2) I feel that DO schools are more accepting of older nontrads like myself, and
3) DO schools have more of a clinical focus, which fits my ambitions better. Many MD schools seem to value research above clinic, so that you can't even graduate without conducting significant research. That is good for them, but not my thing.

What I probably won't explain in the interview is that I am glad that gunner pre-meds avoid DO at all costs. Because they underrate the education offered at those schools, I have seen them choose to reapply multiple times to MD programs rather than suffer the indignity of learning a little extra OMM. So, I figure that the percentage of my class which is comprised of douchey bro gunners will be lower than at an MD school. Given the great personality of almost every DO that I know compared to the egomania of many of the MD docs, I just think that I will get along with my classmates better at a DO school.

That isn't to say that every MD I know is a jerk. Say 8% jerk rate among MDs, 1% jerk rate among DOs that I know. It is anecdata, but statistically significant enough to convince me that I am seeing a real phenomenon.
I know those feels- I did the same as you, for (mostly) the same reasons.
 
You need to get off SDN if you think a 35 is merely good and not crazy. A 35 is GREAT. EXCEPTIONAL.

Keep in mind that there are several MD schools with average MCATs above a 35, so it depends on what your definition of exceptional is. That being said I have only met 1 or 2 people that would have been disappointed with 35 MCAT, and I think they only said that after they got their 38+. Personally, I would have been thrilled with a 35...
 
Thank you for saying this. I have a high 30s score and an otherwise strong application and I have deliberately chosen DO... and caught no end of crap for it here. SDN dogma says that DO is only for people who can't get into an MD school. I had begun to worry that I might have an uphill battle to convince DO schools that they are not my safety valves, that I truly want to go there.

The reasons that I will share are:

1) I know several exceptional doctors who were trained at the two schools that I am most interested in attending,
2) I feel that DO schools are more accepting of older nontrads like myself, and
3) DO schools have more of a clinical focus, which fits my ambitions better. Many MD schools seem to value research above clinic, so that you can't even graduate without conducting significant research. That is good for them, but not my thing.

What I probably won't explain in the interview is that I am glad that gunner pre-meds avoid DO at all costs. Because they underrate the education offered at those schools, I have seen them choose to reapply multiple times to MD programs rather than suffer the indignity of learning a little extra OMM. So, I figure that the percentage of my class which is comprised of douchey bro gunners will be lower than at an MD school. Given the great personality of almost every DO that I know compared to the egomania of many of the MD docs, I just think that I will get along with my classmates better at a DO school.

That isn't to say that every MD I know is a jerk. Say 8% jerk rate among MDs, 1% jerk rate among DOs that I know. It is anecdata, but statistically significant enough to convince me that I am seeing a real phenomenon.
 
Thank you for saying this. I have a high 30s score and an otherwise strong application and I have deliberately chosen DO... and caught no end of crap for it here. SDN dogma says that DO is only for people who can't get into an MD school. I had begun to worry that I might have an uphill battle to convince DO schools that they are not my safety valves, that I truly want to go there.

The reasons that I will share are:

1) I know several exceptional doctors who were trained at the two schools that I am most interested in attending,
2) I feel that DO schools are more accepting of older nontrads like myself, and
3) DO schools have more of a clinical focus, which fits my ambitions better. Many MD schools seem to value research above clinic, so that you can't even graduate without conducting significant research. That is good for them, but not my thing.

What I probably won't explain in the interview is that I am glad that gunner pre-meds avoid DO at all costs. Because they underrate the education offered at those schools, I have seen them choose to reapply multiple times to MD programs rather than suffer the indignity of learning a little extra OMM. So, I figure that the percentage of my class which is comprised of douchey bro gunners will be lower than at an MD school. Given the great personality of almost every DO that I know compared to the egomania of many of the MD docs, I just think that I will get along with my classmates better at a DO school.

That isn't to say that every MD I know is a jerk. Say 8% jerk rate among MDs, 1% jerk rate among DOs that I know. It is anecdata, but statistically significant enough to convince me that I am seeing a real phenomenon.
This is flawed reasoning. Med students are med students. In the vast majority of cases the people who go to DO schools are doing so as a backup to MD schools. So if we're generalizing, then MD students and DO students would have the same % of jerks. DO students might even be greater jerks because they may have a chip on their shoulder.

MD schools absolutely focus on clinical relevance to medicine. That is very definition of medical school- basic sciences with clinical focus. 3/4 years is where you see it applied to actual patients rather than theory. Some people wonder why DOs are being discriminated against in medicine (where it does exist). Well if DOs are constantly insinuating that they care more about patients than MDs, then obviously they will become angry. Basically all of the reasons that you stated for wanting to go DO over MD is the reason discrimination exists. If DOs would humble themselves, then perhaps a more cohesive and cooperative relationship can exist at the school-residency level.

It's for this reason that I also think the ACGME merger will not change anything. DO leadership is still clinging to OMT and osteopathic principles, which will continue to show it's differences at the application for residency level.
 
MD schools absolutely focus on clinical relevance to medicine. That is very definition of medical school- basic sciences with clinical focus. 3/4 years is where you see it applied to actual patients rather than theory. Some people wonder why DOs are being discriminated against in medicine (where it does exist). Well if DOs are constantly insinuating that they care more about patients than MDs, then obviously they will become angry. Basically all of the reasons that you stated for wanting to go DO over MD is the reason discrimination exists. If DOs would humble themselves, then perhaps a more cohesive and cooperative relationship can exist at the school-residency level.

I didn't say that MD's aren't taught clinical medicine.

I said that many MD schools focus heavily on research, some to such an extent that you can't get into them without research and/or you can't graduate without doing a major research project. (i.e. Pitt) DO schools don't have the research budgets that MD schools do, so it isn't something they focus on to the same degree. I want to practice clinical medicine in a community setting... it would be an extraordinary waste of my time to spend hundreds of hours to be a 5th author on a paper that maybe 50 people would ever read.

I NEVER said that DO cares more than MD or spouted any BS about it being more holistic. I said that I have personally encountered MD jerks than DO jerks, though the absolute number of both is rather low compared to the large number of physicians I work with daily. Like most people, I base at least some of my opinions and decisions upon information gained through direct experience. Thus I called it "anecdata." YMMV. If future experience conflicts, I will reconsider my conclusions.
 
Thank you for saying this. I have a high 30s score and an otherwise strong application and I have deliberately chosen DO... and caught no end of crap for it here. SDN dogma says that DO is only for people who can't get into an MD school. I had begun to worry that I might have an uphill battle to convince DO schools that they are not my safety valves, that I truly want to go there.

The reasons that I will share are:

1) I know several exceptional doctors who were trained at the two schools that I am most interested in attending,
2) I feel that DO schools are more accepting of older nontrads like myself, and
3) DO schools have more of a clinical focus, which fits my ambitions better. Many MD schools seem to value research above clinic, so that you can't even graduate without conducting significant research. That is good for them, but not my thing.

What I probably won't explain in the interview is that I am glad that gunner pre-meds avoid DO at all costs. Because they underrate the education offered at those schools, I have seen them choose to reapply multiple times to MD programs rather than suffer the indignity of learning a little extra OMM. So, I figure that the percentage of my class which is comprised of douchey bro gunners will be lower than at an MD school. Given the great personality of almost every DO that I know compared to the egomania of many of the MD docs, I just think that I will get along with my classmates better at a DO school.

That isn't to say that every MD I know is a jerk. Say 8% jerk rate among MDs, 1% jerk rate among DOs that I know. It is anecdata, but statistically significant enough to convince me that I am seeing a real phenomenon.

Just addressing the 3 points:

1) Yeah, I get wanting to go to schools that your mentors went to...
2) Probably to some degree, but this really depends on the school.
3) This ABSOLUTELY depends on the school. Some DO schools barely focus on clinical experience during med school (beyond the requirements obviously). Many MD schools have a HEAVY focus on clinical experiences in med school (way more than most DO schools), that's the reason I applied to many of those MD schools. If you want community medicine, there are plenty of MD schools with that focus.

And to be honest, research is a good thing. You contribute to the collective through it, and quite frankly you could really help undeserved and rural/community areas with it. For example, one MD school I applied to had a research project that you complete each year. You choose an important health concern of a specific community. You meet with patients and officials in the community and collectively determine what the primary issues are (usually public health related) and think of a solution. You can then continue to work with the community to implement that solution.

If I were you (in other words I strongly recommend this), I'd apply to the DO schools I'm interested in, as well as MD schools with a community/clinical focus. In the end, you can make the decision after you see where you get in. The thing is, there really is very little difference between a DO school and an MD school, and you can certainly practice as an MD with the principles of a DO. The difference comes in with applying for residencies, taking boards, and ultimately cost. MD schools have a ton more public schools and a ton more scholarships to give out.

Ultimately, the type of physician you become is more about YOU than your school, so your goal should be the school that will leave your options open and give you the experiences you want for as little money as possible (unless you're already getting HPSP or something). I can tell you for sure you can find what you want at both an MD and DO school.
 
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Just addressing the 3 points:
Ultimately, the type of physician you become is more about YOU than your school, so your goal should be the school that will leave your options open and give you the experiences you want for as little money as possible (unless you're already getting HPSP or something). I can tell you for sure you can find what you want at both an MD and DO school.

You aren't wrong.

Though, I am not comparing every single DO school to every single MD school. I am pointing out the differences between the dozen schools nearest me.

I wasn't really looking for a referendum on my personal decisions and motivations. I only care that they make sense to me and to the adcoms at the DO schools.

I only mentioned my reasons because we were talking about the worry that DO schools might discriminate against a strong applicant like myself. SDN has assured me that I must have exceptional reasons for choosing DO over MD or else my application will go right in the trash. So, let me get this straight: None of my reasons must mention any differences between DO and MD, even if those are offered without absolute value judgments. Doing so is exhibiting false pride and driving a wedge down the center of the profession. Obviously anything about wanting to learn OMM or being "holistic" is right out. So basically, the only reason that is acceptable to SDN for choosing DO is an inability to choose MD due to a flawed application.

I've done my own due diligence. Of the schools nearest my family which meet MY needs, most are DO schools. It doesn't make sense to me to waste the money to apply to a bunch of MD schools that might be acceptable if I can be reasonably sure to find a seat with a program that suits me. If I am not successful this cycle, I will open up to MD next year. Hopefully, I won't have to explain to any of them "Why MD?"
 
3) DO schools have more of a clinical focus, which fits my ambitions better. Many MD schools seem to value research above clinic, so that you can't even graduate without conducting significant research. That is good for them, but not my thing.
:smack:

That isn't to say that every MD I know is a jerk. Say 8% jerk rate among MDs, 1% jerk rate among DOs that I know. It is anecdata, but statistically significant enough to convince me that I am seeing a real phenomenon.
🙄
 
What I probably won't explain in the interview is that I am glad that gunner pre-meds avoid DO at all costs. Because they underrate the education offered at those schools, I have seen them choose to reapply multiple times to MD programs rather than suffer the indignity of learning a little extra OMM. So, I figure that the percentage of my class which is comprised of douchey bro gunners will be lower than at an MD school. Given the great personality of almost every DO that I know compared to the egomania of many of the MD docs, I just think that I will get along with my classmates better at a DO school.

That isn't to say that every MD I know is a jerk. Say 8% jerk rate among MDs, 1% jerk rate among DOs that I know. It is anecdata, but statistically significant enough to convince me that I am seeing a real phenomenon.

Seriously? :/
There are plenty of "gunners" at DO schools.

Also, you do realize that you'll most likely be working with plenty of "douchey" MDs once you get to residency and beyond, right?

This type of attitude does nothing positive for the profession.
 

Even as I wrote it, I predicted that you, specifically, would call me out on that.

That I am educated enough to be familiar with the language and concepts of research does not mean that I have any interest in engaging in it myself in any formal sense. I am happy to study and apply the research of others, but it isn't what I want to spend my time doing. There are other people who don't want to do the things that I am interested in doing.

I've seen some research that was done JUST to meet obligations, and it was a waste of everyone's time. Nothing of real import was learned, nothing seriously contributed to the store of human knowledge. Just a publication to a third rate journal so that the "PI" would get credit for engaging in scholarly endeavors as required by his contract. I don't want to be that guy. Ever. If there were something that I were passionate about investigating, that would be a different matter.
 
Even as I wrote it, I predicted that you, specifically, would call me out on that.

That I am educated enough to be familiar with the language and concepts of research does not mean that I have any interest in engaging in it myself in any formal sense. I am happy to study and apply the research of others, but it isn't what I want to spend my time doing. There are other people who don't want to do the things that I am interested in doing.

I've seen some research that was done JUST to meet obligations, and it was a waste of everyone's time. Nothing of real import was learned, nothing seriously contributed to the store of human knowledge. Just a publication to a third rate journal so that the "PI" would get credit for engaging in scholarly endeavors as required by his contract. I don't want to be that guy. Ever. If there were something that I were passionate about investigating, that would be a different matter.
You said: "Many MD schools seem to value research above clinic, so that you can't even graduate without conducting significant research."

In short, you are wrong.
 
Seriously? :/
There are plenty of "gunners" at DO schools.

Also, you do realize that you'll most likely be working with plenty of "douchey" MDs once you get to residency and beyond, right?

This type of attitude does nothing positive for the profession.
👍
It will be a complete shock to him once he's well into med school, if he thinks there are no gunners in DO schools.
 
You said: "Many MD schools seem to value research above clinic, so that you can't even graduate without conducting significant research."

In short, you are wrong.

...no, U?

In short, I am right. No fewer than 3 of the MD schools on my list require research/scholarly projects as a condition of graduation. As I discovered when I actually did my "research" into those schools. You are always so quick to tell someone that something they have personally observed is false... because you said so.
 
...no, U?

In short, I am right. No fewer than 3 of the MD schools on my list require research/scholarly projects as a condition of graduation. As I discovered when I actually did my "research" into those schools. You are always so quick to tell someone that something they have personally observed is false... because you said so.
This may be a requirement at SOME MD schools (more the top tiers), but definitely not the majority. That is fact.
 
This may be a requirement at SOME MD schools (more the top tiers), but definitely not the majority. That is fact.

See my later post in this thread where I admitted that I am not actually talking about every single MD school, but about the ones that I had considered.

If it isn't applicable at a school that I wouldn't go to for other reasons, that doesn't help me much.
 
Even as I wrote it, I predicted that you, specifically, would call me out on that.

That I am educated enough to be familiar with the language and concepts of research does not mean that I have any interest in engaging in it myself in any formal sense. I am happy to study and apply the research of others, but it isn't what I want to spend my time doing. There are other people who don't want to do the things that I am interested in doing.

I've seen some research that was done JUST to meet obligations, and it was a waste of everyone's time. Nothing of real import was learned, nothing seriously contributed to the store of human knowledge. Just a publication to a third rate journal so that the "PI" would get credit for engaging in scholarly endeavors as required by his contract. I don't want to be that guy. Ever. If there were something that I were passionate about investigating, that would be a different matter.

Ok that's completely fine. I'm not really in to doing research myself.

However, what does that have to do with "DO schools have more of a clinical focus, which fits my ambitions better. Many MD schools seem to value research above clinic" ?

I'm pretty sure that's false. As far as I know all MD and DO schools pretty much follow the 2 years (or 2.5 years) of clinical experiences. So what makes MD schools lacking in the clinical focus? And if there does happen to be a MD school out there that makes you do 1 year of research and only 1 year of clinicals or something along those lines, why not just not apply to that school? Why make up BS about DO schools being more clinically focused.
 
Why make up BS about DO schools being more clinically focused.

Oh, FFS! I am trying to phrase the difference as "DO focuses more on clinic" rather than "DO requires less research." I am saying the same thing either way, but one variation is more positive than the other, and I am planning how to say this to people who are adcoms at DO schools.

I don't think that rolling in talking about what they don't do is going to be useful.

I am not saying that MDs don't have clinical experiences, for the love of ****. I am not saying "DO is more holistic" etc.

I am saying that they don't freaking have to worry about doing the scut work in their professor's labs so that said professor can keep their enormous NIH grant rolling.

When I have to say it to the adcom, I'm probably not going to phrase it like that, though.
 
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