Why do many Canadians apply to US med schools?

[rubisco88]

It seems like many Canadians also apply to US med schools. Why is this? Are there very few med schools in Canada? Why do US citizens prefer to apply to Caribbean schools rather than maybe applying to Canadian med schools? It seems very rare that I see US citizens considering applying to a Canadian med school. Instead, applying to the Carribean seems more popular even though it seems like a worse option.

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[theseeker4]

It seems like many Canadians also apply to US med schools. Why is this? Are there very few med schools in Canada? Why do US citizens prefer to apply to Caribbean schools rather than maybe applying to Canadian med schools? It seems very rare that I see US citizens considering applying to a Canadian med school. Instead, applying to the Carribean seems more popular even though it seems like a worse option.

It is more competitive to get into Canadian medical schools than US. It is very easy to get into Caribbean medical schools with the only requirement for some of them being able to get loans for the tuition, and even the "big 4" having lower standards than US medical schools. You read about people going caribbean because they have low stats and they either think the caribbean are the only ones who will take them, or they tried and failed to get into US schools. If the Canadian schools are more competitive than US schools, what advantage would be gained by applying there (if they even take US citizens, don't know if they do or not)?

 

[Miss Alyssa]

It seems like many Canadians also apply to US med schools. Why is this? Are there very few med schools in Canada? Why do US citizens prefer to apply to Caribbean schools rather than maybe applying to Canadian med schools? It seems very rare that I see US citizens considering applying to a Canadian med school. Instead, applying to the Carribean seems more popular even though it seems like a worse option.

There are only about 17 med schools in Canada whereas there are 120 something in the US. Plus a few of those schools have French as the language of instruction so if you aren't fluent, it's not an option. They tend to be more competitive that US schools especially if you're applying out of province (out of state). In addition to provincial ties, some schools have preferences to students from that city, from rural areas, from northern areas etc.

A Canadian citizen that graduates med school in the US is considered the same as a Canadian medical grad during the Canadian Match process. So they get to match in the first round.

Few medical schools in Canada accept US citizens. Mcgill accepts the most and thats still about 4 or less spots a year. I would estimate less than 12 spots across the country.

 

[Musclemass]

Canada's population is like 10% of the US's, so it's not like med schools are so scarce there.

Canadians of all sorts have long migrated to the US, it's no different for prospective docs than for people in other walks of life. Many people immigrate to Canada with the hope that it can serve as a stepping stone to get to the US. Going to med school in the US can also facilitate that.

I know a lot of people, most of them happen to be Asian for whatever reason, who came to the US with an intermediate stop in Canada.

 

[JasonicBoom]

Prepare yourselves for a wall of text people! Here goes: Canadian med school admission is a crapshoot. I’ll talk about Ontario, because that’s where I’m from and I know a lot of Ontarians applying to the US. We have 5 med schools in the province, one of which is in Northern Ontario and is very focused on admitting people from rural backgrounds so most of us city folk won’t/can’t apply. That leaves four schools. In general, admission to these four schools if very number based because the process is completely non-rolling; out of the applicant pool, a GPA cutoff is set and everyone who falls bellow it will be pretty much rejected without even having their files reviewed. At my school, the admissions officer told us recent years’ cutoffs have been set at low 3.8s on the OMSAS scale (which is far less lenient than the AMCAS scale). MCAT is treated more or less as pass/fail (as in, get over 10 10 10 N, you pass) so it doesn’t factor as much as GPA.
Okay, so let’s say your marks are competitive, now it’s based on the 48 extracurricular activities you were asked to submit on your application, but they’re not necessarily looking for “standard” if you will activities that everyone expects in the States (research, clinical experience, etc.)… no one really knows what they’re looking for, I guess if you seem interesting you get an interview??? Anyway, we always hear of people who matriculate Harvard, Yale, etc. etc. without even getting an interview at a Canadian school.
So who’s getting in? They love people with graduate degrees. The admission officer at my schools told me that graduate applicants were placed in a separate pool and I think she said almost half the seats were given to them. And they love re-applicants also. So if you’re a traditional applicant with a 3.8+ GPA and a 35+ MCAT will you get into med school? Maybe, maybe not…so lots of us apply to the US 🙂
I happen to be a dual citizen so I think it would have been silly if I hadn’t applied down south. Plus, after being on some interviews…you’re private schools are sooooo nice and beautiful wow! In Canada, every medical school (and university for that matter) is public so they don’t have nearly the money or resources US schools have to spend on their med students. I think medical education would be a far better experience in the US for that reason(…but your healthcare system…needs work…🙂) I’m pretty set on coming to the States regardless of how my Canadian apps go. USA! USA!

 

[Miss Alyssa]

Prepare yourselves for a wall of text people! Here goes: Canadian med school admission is a crapshoot. I’ll talk about Ontario, because that’s where I’m from and I know a lot of Ontarians applying to the US. We have 5 med schools in the province, one of which is in Northern Ontario and is very focused on admitting people from rural backgrounds so most of us city folk won’t/can’t apply. That leaves four schools. In general, admission to these four schools if very number based because the process is completely non-rolling; out of the applicant pool, a GPA cutoff is set and everyone who falls bellow it will be pretty much rejected without even having their files reviewed.

If I remember correctly, Western shows at least some preference to ppl from rural and western Ontario. Ottawa seems to have a whole preference list (it would probably cause an uproar on sdn if was an american school as evidenced by URM debates). I'm not sure about Queens, but I don't think Toronto shows preferences. So if you're from the Toronto area...😱

From Ottawa's website: http://www.intermed.med.uottawa.ca/Students/MD/Admissions/eng/excellence_marks.html
Each year, a minimum weighted grade point average (wgpa) is set for the current application pool. The required minimum wgpa varies according to the following list of categories:

1. Applicants who apply to the Consortium National de formation en santé (CNFS): residents from outside the provinces of Ontario and Québec applying to the French program
2. Applicants who are sponsored by the Canadian Forces (CF)
3. Aboriginals
4. Residents from Ontario and the Outaouais region applying to the French program
5. Residents from the LHIN (Local Health Integrated Network) Champlain district (as determined by the Ministry of Health)
6. Residents from the region (Ottawa-Outaouais)
7. Residents from the province of Ontario
8. Residents from other provinces

This order of preference reflects the mission statement of the Faculty of Medicine. The autobiographical sketch and the permanent address listed on the application form will be used to determine the geographical status of the applicants. Applicants may be asked to provide evidence of geographical status.

Candidates who meet the required minimum average set for their category will see their application advance in the selection process to the review and assessment of their detailed autobiographical sketch submission. The minimum WGPA cut-offs are determined by the quantity and the quality of the applications that we receive. Candidates who would like to learn the WGPA cut-off for their category are invited to contact the admissions office at [email protected]

 

[DangerRoss]

Because they don't get paid what we get paid here in the States.

 

[Juicec]

Canada's population is like 10% of the US's, so it's not like med schools are so scarce there.

Canadians of all sorts have long migrated to the US, it's no different for prospective docs than for people in other walks of life. Many people immigrate to Canada with the hope that it can serve as a stepping stone to get to the US. Going to med school in the US can also facilitate that.

I know a lot of people, most of them happen to be Asian for whatever reason, who came to the US with an intermediate stop in Canada.

So... your response to the question is that EVERYONE wants to live in America and not the fact that Canadian med schools are super competitive when compared to even the best of U.S. schools?

 

[Musclemass]

So... your response to the question is that EVERYONE wants to live in America and not the fact that Canadian med schools are super competitive when compared to even the best of U.S. schools?

Not at all. The OP asked why so many Canadians seem to be applying to US schools, my comments discussed one factor. Not all Canadians want to live in the US. But many, many do.

If you were to ask the average Canadian in a US med school what their geographic preference for residency and then practicing, I'm suggesting that most don't intend to return to Canada. I base that only on my own personal experiences and it may be that those are unrepresentative.

There was a flood of immigrants to Canada some years back when the British relinquished Hong Kong. They didn't go there because of their love of ice hockey. A fair number of those people and their descendants have moved on to the US. I've known a bunch of them.

I'm sure the situation regarding med schools up there is a factor, as you say. To put it in context, a prior post says Canada has 17 med schools for a population of 34 mil. California has a larger population and has 8 med schools, some of which are pretty small relative to others.

 

[thumbz]

At the University of Alberta this year (so by no means a powerhouse university, I'm sure many of you haven't heard of it) average GPA was a 3.87 and MCAT was a 33. (http://ume.med.ualberta.ca/ProspectiveLearners/MDAdmissions/AdmissionStatistics/Pages/default.aspx). And trust me, they still value EC's and everything else as much as American schools.

Needless to say, that's a lot closer to Ivy league stats than it is to mid and low tier US programs. So a Canadian with a 4.0/31 who had weaker EC's will go to America, and a Canadian with a 3.6/31 with weak EC's will also go to America.

 

[CodeBlu]

As a Canadian who lives in the US and has both citizenships, I will spell this out for you guys.

Canada's population is like 10% of the US's, so it's not like med schools are so scarce there.

Canadians of all sorts have long migrated to the US, it's no different for prospective docs than for people in other walks of life. Many people immigrate to Canada with the hope that it can serve as a stepping stone to get to the US. Going to med school in the US can also facilitate that.

I know a lot of people, most of them happen to be Asian for whatever reason, who came to the US with an intermediate stop in Canada.

You mean Canadians of all sorts have immigrated to the US... Ask around to a few physicians about how medicine has become a broken and fragmented institution in the US. And yes, medical schools are extremely scarce in Canada. I will explain below.

Yes, the US is great. I love it. But, Canada is pretty awesome too. And many doctors from the US have left to go to Canada, because of many factors.

Insert video plug.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DfHvCdc7j8[/YOUTUBE]

So... your response to the question is that EVERYONE wants to live in America and not the fact that Canadian med schools are super competitive when compared to even the best of U.S. schools?

Thank you for having some sense.

Because they don't get paid what we get paid here in the States.

Canadian doctors make serious money. If you want to practice family medicine/internal medicine... you can easily make 300-400K working 4-5 days a week. My own family doctor back in Canada pulls in over 600K.

It is true that specialists make less money than their American counterparts. However, Canada is NOT overly litigious or law suit happy like the US. Way less "defensive medicine". Yes, wait times can be a bit excessive, but you know what... I've never paid for surgery, or a doctors visit for a runny nose. Ask any US based physician how much they would LOVE to have a single payer system.

Example: Patient comes into ED and is diagnosed with some condition that requires care by a specialist. The patient has a weird insurance plan. It's VERY hard for this person to find a specialist that accepts the insurance.


Now for Canadian medical school admissions. I will give some examples of two ontario schools I am familiar with.

-University of Toronto has cut offs of 9/9/9, N for the MCAT, but they'd like to see a 32-33. You cannot apply to U of T if your GPA is below 3.6. Matriculants have MCAT composites of 34 on average and a 3.9 GPA.

-University of Western Ontario (UWO) has MCAT cut offs of, PS - 9, VR - 11, BS - 10, WS- Q, Composite 30. You must have a 3.7 GPA to even apply. The GPA of accepted students averages to about a 3.9 similar to U of T, MCAT average of 33-34 I think the last time I was informed by my old boss who works for the school.

When I say cut offs for UWO, I mean strict, non-negotiable cut offs. As in... you don't have an 11 in verbal? No interview. Zero. Zilch. What's great about the system at UWO is that if you can get the minimum scores, then you're guaranteed an interview.

Moral of the story: You can get into a US allopathic school with a 3.5 and a 29. A Canadian school would never touch you though. Doesn't mean you will make a bad doctor. Stiff competition is stiff.

 

[Mithril]

The US was my backup.

Canadian med schools and health care system = cheap tuition, cheap malpractice insurance, and no culture of litigation.

Just look up any Canadian's stats who've either matriculated in the US or in Canada and you will see they're fairly high. Look up the admissions stats for any Canadian school and you will see the same.

 

[ohnolita]

-University of Toronto has cut offs of 9/9/9, N for the MCAT, but they'd like to see a 32-33. You cannot apply to U of T if your GPA is below 3.6. Matriculants have MCAT composites of 34 on average and a 3.9 GPA.

-University of Western Ontario (UWO) has MCAT cut offs of, PS - 9, VR - 11, BS - 10, WS- Q, Composite 30. You must have a 3.7 GPA to even apply. The GPA of accepted students averages to about a 3.9 similar to U of T, MCAT average of 33-34 I think the last time I was informed by my old boss who works for the school.

Moral of the story: You can get into a US allopathic school with a 3.5 and a 29. A Canadian school would never touch you though. Doesn't mean you will make a bad doctor. Stiff competition is stiff.

What is worth noting here is also the fact that many schools, including UWO, often take your best 2 years for their GPA calculations whereas schools in the US look at all 4 of your years. That's a pro and a con. Pro: if you did horrible in first year, you can still get in if you do exceptionally well in second and third years. Con: Because of this, the competition is absolutely ridiculous. That and the cheap tuition, of course.

 

[Sesom]

Because Canada is too cold.

 

[Medstart108]

What is worth noting here is also the fact that many schools, including UWO, often take your best 2 years for their GPA calculations whereas schools in the US look at all 4 of your years. That's a pro and a con. Pro: if you did horrible in first year, you can still get in if you do exceptionally well in second and third years. Con: Because of this, the competition is absolutely ridiculous. That and the cheap tuition, of course.

The competition is ridiculous because Toronto is filled to the brim with skilled economic immigrants who bring with them highly advanced degrees. Their children aim to be no less and naturally gravitate towards medicine because of the pay, job security and prestige. I believe Toronto was ranked 3rd in the world for science and math scores of its high school students.

On top of that Toronto,a city of 6 million people has 1 medical school, which recruits 286 students a year.

On top of that, every other province reserves 90% of their seats for their own province's students. 2 of the 6 medical schools in Ontario reserve 1/5 or 2/3 of their seats to people in their own regions (SW ontario and N ontario). On top of that another medical school in Ontario reserves a large number of their seats for French speaking or bilingual candidates.

Lastly out of the 3 medical schools don't do not discriminate against students from Toronto. 2 of them are open universities, meaning they don't discriminate between provinces, so Toronto students have to compete with students from all over Canada.

As you can see, being raised in Toronto is like being from California except 10x worse.

 

[skmed]

As much as I miss Canada (just moved to the US a few years ago), this thread makes me kinda glad I'm not trying to apply there.