Why do orthopaedic surgeons work so much?

[AK_MD2BE]

I understand that during residency you work extra-ordinary hours b/c that is what is required and that is what is necessary to become a good surgeon. However, why do orthopaedic surgeons work so much after residency? For example...say an orthopodist makes 500K working 60 hours/week in a mid-sized city where reimbursements are relatively high. Why couldn't he/she work 48 hours a week and make 400K? (which, IMHO, is more money than anybody should ever need) Are they just so used to working really long hours as residents, so that becomes the norm? I ask this b/c I can understand and justify busting my tail for five years in residency...but the 30 years after that I would like to live a relatively normal live (i.e. work 7 a.m. to 6 p.m. or so w/weekends off). Thanks for the information.

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[VincentAdultman]

I understand that during residency you work extra-ordinary hours b/c that is what is required and that is what is necessary to become a good surgeon. However, why do orthopaedic surgeons work so much after residency? For example...say an orthopodist makes 500K working 60 hours/week in a mid-sized city where reimbursements are relatively high. Why couldn't he/she work 48 hours a week and make 400K? (which, IMHO, is more money than anybody should ever need) Are they just so used to working really long hours as residents, so that becomes the norm? I ask this b/c I can understand and justify busting my tail for five years in residency...but the 30 years after that I would like to live a relatively normal live (i.e. work 7 a.m. to 6 p.m. or so w/weekends off). Thanks for the information.

When you're in pp, make sure you tell your partners that when it's time to schedule call days.

 

[AK_MD2BE]

I realize that being on call is part of the deal...I should have been more specific. Why don't the ortho guys work less when they are not on call?

 

[Mariah246]

Why couldn't he/she work 48 hours a week and make 400K? (which, IMHO, is more money than anybody should ever need) I ask this b/c I can understand and justify busting my tail for five years in residency...but the 30 years after that I would like to live a relatively normal live (i.e. work 7 a.m. to 6 p.m. or so w/weekends off). Thanks for the information.

1) No one ever makes "enough" money. If you make 400K, you'll want 500. If you make 600, you'll want 700.

2) Surgery is not the right field to be in if you want a controllable lifestyle.

 

[-Goose-]

I understand that during residency you work extra-ordinary hours b/c that is what is required and that is what is necessary to become a good surgeon. However, why do orthopaedic surgeons work so much after residency? For example...say an orthopodist makes 500K working 60 hours/week in a mid-sized city where reimbursements are relatively high. Why couldn't he/she work 48 hours a week and make 400K? (which, IMHO, is more money than anybody should ever need) Are they just so used to working really long hours as residents, so that becomes the norm? I ask this b/c I can understand and justify busting my tail for five years in residency...but the 30 years after that I would like to live a relatively normal live (i.e. work 7 a.m. to 6 p.m. or so w/weekends off). Thanks for the information.

Sounds like dermatology hours.

Orthopods work pretty hard. From what I've seen, surgical subspecialties with more of a potential for lighter hours include urology, ENT, and maybe plastics (cosmetics).

 

[StudentOrthoPod]

Sounds like dermatology hours.

Orthopods work pretty hard. From what I've seen, surgical subspecialties with more of a potential for lighter hours include urology, ENT, and maybe plastics (cosmetics).

Let's try to keep the scaremongering to a minimum. Sure, the above specialties generally have better hours, but I know of 3 orthopods in the private world off-hand that work 7am to 5 or 6 most days, with 1 or sometimes 2 calls a week, and PA's taking care of the scut. Sounds pretty good to me.

 

[StudentOrthoPod]

and for the record, most derm guys I know work less than 50 hrs

 

[Tired]

I realize that being on call is part of the deal...I should have been more specific. Why don't the ortho guys work less when they are not on call?

Why would you want to work less?

 

[AK_MD2BE]

Why would I want to work less? Oh, I dont know. Probably b/c I love my wife and my future children more than I love work/surgery/medicine.

 

[-Goose-]

Why would I want to work less? Oh, I dont know. Probably b/c I love my wife and my future children more than I love work/surgery/medicine.

You have recently posted questions asking about Gas, Rads, and Ortho.

Hmmm... the only thing these fields have in common is $$$.

 

[Tired]

Why would I want to work less? Oh, I dont know. Probably b/c I love my wife and my future children more than I love work/surgery/medicine.

Then go be a pediatrician.

Wuss.

 

[Blesbok]

Let's try to keep the scaremongering to a minimum. Sure, the above specialties generally have better hours, but I know of 3 orthopods in the private world off-hand that work 7am to 5 or 6 most days, with 1 or sometimes 2 calls a week, and PA's taking care of the scut. Sounds pretty good to me.

one of the local orthopod clinics, a huge name clinic, only works their guys 4.5 days a week on average. Of course one or two of those days is a little later, but then 1-2 of them they usually get off earlier too.

 

[Blesbok]

You have recently posted questions asking about Gas, Rads, and Ortho.

Hmmm... the only thing these fields have in common is $$$.

Maybe he likes to stick "bones" in strange places and take pictures of it?

 

[AK_MD2BE]

Goose...you must have a lot of time on your hands to be searching to where I have posted. Here is how the pay scale works for me. Say an anesthesiologist makes 300K/year working 55 hours/week. Well, in my economy (once I make partner and am able to do this sort of thing), I would take my share of the call and only work 40 hours/week and make a prorated 210K/year. Therefore, I get to spend more time with my beautiful wife and future children. I am not interested in well paying fields b/c I want to live in a million dollar home and drive a Mercedes. I am interested in well paying fields b/c it will allow me to spend more time with loved ones. Thanks.

 

[-Goose-]

Goose...you must have a lot of time on your hands to be searching to where I have posted. Here is how the pay scale works for me. Say an anesthesiologist makes 300K/year working 55 hours/week. Well, in my economy (once I make partner and am able to do this sort of thing), I would take my share of the call and only work 40 hours/week and make a prorated 210K/year. Therefore, I get to spend more time with my beautiful wife and future children. I am not interested in well paying fields b/c I want to live in a million dollar home and drive a Mercedes. I am interested in well paying fields b/c it will allow me to spend more time with loved ones. Thanks.

No time at all. Clicked on your screen name, search posts by user, and there it was. Maybe 5 seconds.

If thats your goal, I think fields like anesthesiology and radiology are more amenable to being 'part-time' than are surgical fields. Maybe a resident or attending can chime in.

 

[michaelrack]

Say an anesthesiologist makes 300K/year working 55 hours/week. Well, in my economy (once I make partner and am able to do this sort of thing), I would take my share of the call and only work 40 hours/week and make a prorated 210K/year.

In many specialties, much of overhead is fixed, so reduced hours will result in a marked drop in income. A 20% reduction in hours could result in a 40% drop in income. This is probably less true for a specialty like anesthesia than a surgical or primary care practice.

 

[Southpaw]

Goose...blah blah blah

There are much easier ways to make a good living and work decent hours than going into Ortho. Derm, Path, PM&R, and Rads are just a few that come to mind. There's a guy in my class who seems to be choosing Ortho in large part for the money, and I believe he'll be sorely disappointed. If money and lifestyle are your primary motivators, and you want to stay in medicine, I'd say go Derm or Path, and then maybe Dermpath if that's not enough.

Or as Goose points out, you've had interest in Rads too. Just do Rads man....not a bad deal at all if you ask me.

 

[ninjapenguin]

I am not interested in well paying fields b/c I want to live in a million dollar home and drive a Mercedes. I am interested in well paying fields b/c it will allow me to spend more time with loved ones. Thanks.

How does this make any sense?

If your ultimate goal is spending time with family and not a luxurious lifestyle, then why are you choosing specialties by how much they pay instead of their typical working hours?

 

[Mariah246]

You have recently posted questions asking about Gas, Rads, and Ortho.

Hmmm... the only thing these fields have in common is $$$.

That should go over well during interviews.

 

[dropout]

I was an ortho resident in a former life, but left to work on wall street. now that i'm on the other side, my perspective is that no matter what field you are in, you will feel you are working too many hours if you don't truly enjoy your job.

i have anesthesia colleagues (attendings) who are constantly struggling to reduce their 50hr/week workload and occasional call. yet i also have ortho buddies who love their 65hr work week.
and of course, there's the prototypical 80+ hour/week resident dropout who goes on to do business development for big-pharma and hates his job, so can't stand a 35-40hr work week (or any amount of time for that matter).

 

[shanet74]

I have to say that one of the reasons I didn't do ortho was the hours. Loved the work, but saw the hours the attendings worked, and the fact that they would come in at all hours of the day. Schedules didn't always go according to plan either in the OR. Rounding on weekends (as those hip replacements are still there on the weekends) wasn't in my cards either. At any rate lifestyle definitely comes into play when things are all said and done, and pretty much all ortho docs I know work 60+ hours per week (with the exception of a couple older ones who pick and choose which cases they want), even they are 45+ though.

 

[AK_MD2BE]

Wow, its been a while since I visited this forum. I didn't know such a simple question would set off such a huge firestorm.

 

[Taurus]

I was an ortho resident in a former life, but left to work on wall street. now that i'm on the other side, my perspective is that no matter what field you are in, you will feel you are working too many hours if you don't truly enjoy your job.

i have anesthesia colleagues (attendings) who are constantly struggling to reduce their 50hr/week workload and occasional call. yet i also have ortho buddies who love their 65hr work week.
and of course, there's the prototypical 80+ hour/week resident dropout who goes on to do business development for big-pharma and hates his job, so can't stand a 35-40hr work week (or any amount of time for that matter).

What's so bad about doing business development for big-pharma? Is the pay not as good as being an ortho?

Are you thinking about getting back into medicine?

 

[v-lander]

How does this make any sense?

If your ultimate goal is spending time with family and not a luxurious lifestyle, then why are you choosing specialties by how much they pay instead of their typical working hours?

It makes complete sense and I applaud the OP for seeking to preserve balance in his life . To address the above question, it's got to be a combination of both hours and pay.

Raising a family is expensive! If you want a great family life, having both parents work compounds the problem even further. Hence, you find a good paying specialty that allows you to bring home plenty of bacon while giving you plenty of time to actually bring it home and eat it with the chillin's and wifey, too! Makes complete sense to me and is actually one of my main guiding principles, too.

And unless you have a family, too, during med school/residency and know what it's like, I think calling the OP a 'wuss' in this case makes you look pretty silly. Such an undertaking makes one the farthest thing from a wuss. It's pretty heroic, IMO, to want to be the best doc you can be AND the best father/husband/wife/mother you can be.

 

[michaelrack]

And unless you have a family, too, during med school/residency and know what it's like, I think calling the OP a 'wuss' in this case makes you look pretty silly.

I am married, and my wife had a child during the second half of my residency, so I guess I am qualified to call the OP a "wuss". My advice to the OP would be to go into psychiatry, where low hours are the norm, even during residency. For the hours worked, the pay for psychiatry is pretty good.

 

[DrDre311]

I am married, and my wife had a child during the second half of my residency, so I guess I am qualified to call the OP a "wuss". My advice to the OP would be to go into psychiatry, where low hours are the norm, even during residency. For the hours worked, the pay for psychiatry is pretty good.

Psych...BLECCCH!

To the OP: Nothing against wanting to be a family man, but if you're between surgery and something like rads/gas, then you don't really want to be a surgeon.

 

[basupran]

"To the OP: Nothing against wanting to be a family man, but if you're between surgery and something like rads/gas, then you don't really want to be a surgeon."

QFT.

also, you can easily have a family life @ 60 hrs/wk.

 

[dobonedoc]

Why? I think it is (for better or worse) who we are. You don't get into the most coveted area in medicine by meeting minimum standards. By going beyond the required distance is what has put us in the position to be able to call ourselves orthopedic surgeons. We had to be selected by those who have gone before us. We've had to work to prove our ability and commitment. Once residency ends, the basic nature of who-we-are does not automatically change.

Though we like to play and hopefully love other things in addition to our work; there is always pressure to add people into the clinic. There is no end to the hospital consults and ER work. Delays in the OR often make days longer than expected.

Finally, money is a tremendous motivator. Student loans loom over us. Overhead is always an issue. Big houses, fast cars, and nice boats are well within our means - as long as you are willing to do the work.

 

[ninjapenguin]

To address the above question, it's got to be a combination of both hours and pay.

Raising a family is expensive! If you want a great family life, having both parents work compounds the problem even further. Hence, you find a good paying specialty that allows you to bring home plenty of bacon while giving you plenty of time to actually bring it home and eat it with the chillin's and wifey, too! Makes complete sense to me and is actually one of my main guiding principles, too.

And unless you have a family, too, during med school/residency and know what it's like, I think calling the OP a 'wuss' in this case makes you look pretty silly. Such an undertaking makes one the farthest thing from a wuss. It's pretty heroic, IMO, to want to be the best doc you can be AND the best father/husband/wife/mother you can be.

Yes, because $150k a year and a 40 hour work week isn't nearly enough money and spare time to raise a family, especially when one isn't looking for mansions and luxurious cars. It's amazing people are still having babies these days; I wonder how 100 million other people in this country manage to do it with even less money?

Also, I never called the OP a 'wuss'. I think you need to learn how to read a bit more attentively.

 

[dropout]

What's so bad about doing business development for big-pharma? Is the pay not as good as being an ortho?

Are you thinking about getting back into medicine?

I don't work for big-pharma, rather i work in finance. finance jobs are longer hours, more stressful, higher turnover, but also has the potential for vastly more pay than pharma.

big pharma pays less than being an orthopod (i'd say 1/2 to 1/3). finance has a wide spectrum and can pay the same or less than pharm (if you're not very good) or you can be in the stratosphere like a hedge fund manager.

in general, i'd say most docs who leave residency for the business world wont' make as much as an orthopod. but some will make much much more though.

 

[musicalmedicine]

they work so much because they have an amazing job and love doing it.

 

[tchoupdoc]

I understand that during residency you work extra-ordinary hours b/c that is what is required and that is what is necessary to become a good surgeon. However, why do orthopaedic surgeons work so much after residency? For example...say an orthopodist makes 500K working 60 hours/week in a mid-sized city where reimbursements are relatively high. Why couldn't he/she work 48 hours a week and make 400K? (which, IMHO, is more money than anybody should ever need) Are they just so used to working really long hours as residents, so that becomes the norm? I ask this b/c I can understand and justify busting my tail for five years in residency...but the 30 years after that I would like to live a relatively normal live (i.e. work 7 a.m. to 6 p.m. or so w/weekends off). Thanks for the information.

Lots of reasons for this, well discussed above. One that has not been: all surgeons are dependent on hospitals to operate.

Hospitals know this. You get priviliges to work there if you agree to cover the emergency room. If there are four pods at a hospital, and you are the fifth, and you want to take every 8th night instead of your fair share, you don't get priviliges.

OR's are not at any surgeon's beck and call, especially trauma. The closed ankle fracture/dislocation comes in with no vascular or neuro deficit at 9 pm on a sunday. You could admit the patient and do it Monday. But you know that tomorrow you can't get a room until after 5 because the shoulder guy is doing his 4 scopes, the neurosurgeon has his 6 hour spine, CT is doing a bypass... and you have monday clinic. So either get it over with now, or do it tomorrow after a 50+ patient clinic day, at, HOPEFULLY, five. Assuming that anesthesia and nursing are available.