Why do people bother working hard to get into top-tier schools?

[alibai3ah]

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Half of them look like such pasty nerds.

Haha I was looking at that too. All the attractive people seem to be the ones who went to less well known schools.....hmm is there a correlation?

 

[BozoSparky]

residency can make you pasty...and neurosurgery is probably one of the hardest programs around.

 

[bigman225]

Those guys have been working their tails off for over a decade and you expect them to look like Brad Pitt?

 

[circulus vitios]

Half of them look like such pasty nerds.

Yup, that's pretty much what I pictured a Caltech/HMS student to look like.

 

[rockyDoctora]

Those last two women on that list are pretty 😛

Pamela > Gianna

 

[Slowpoke]

Pamela > Gianna

seconded.

 

[rockyDoctora]

seconded.

Yes.

 

[riverjib]

Lol, i sure as **** would. If you went to a caribbean school you're obviously lazy, or have a hard time learning. Either of which would make you a doctor I don't wish to be seen by.

This may be true, but this is why residency matters more than undergrad (and therefore medical school). One of the physicians I worked with for years had three kids. I knew them from the time they were in junior high...two twin boys and a younger girl. His daughter was a serious student, and his boys were really smart but not motivated. Still, they worked just hard enough to get into Dartmouth. He didn't care what any of them chose to do with their education, but always projected that his daughter was the most likely to go into medicine. (In case you were wondering, she graduated Georgetown with a 3.97 and went into finance.)

The boys partied and barely maintained 3.0 GPAs. But upon graduation, they both (call it a twin thing) decided they wanted to go into medicine. One decided to take a research position in Boston, while the other made a half-hearted attempt at a post-bacc. He succumbed and went to a Caribbean school. The other followed a year later. Once they (respectively) began medical school and understood how crucial it was to be a top student if they even wanted ROTATIONS in NY, they worked hard. They both did extremely well. One is a second-year resident in surgery at Mount Sinai, and the other just started residency...I'm not sure where. I don't know his other son well, but I know the one at Sinai, and even when he wasn't a stellar student, he was already the kind of kid I would trust in a crisis. He was easygoing and personable, yet intense and serious when the situation called for it. And as I mentioned, he's incredibly smart. I wouldn't judge him based upon what he did before he was 24...I judge him based upon what he learned from his past mistakes, and the fact that he's doing incredibly well in an intensely competitive program.

Point is, we all knock the "slackers" who ended up in the Carib and DO schools. But they often surpass their competitors for residency slots, if they work hard enough. I'm graduating in a small program with some combined "BS/MD" students who are currently gearing up for next fall after four years of slacking off because they lost the incentive to study. Mind you, they were mature enough at 17 to get into this program (read: nearly perfect GPAs and SAT scores, Intel scholarships, National blah blah blah...) and they chose to give themselves a break and maintain the bare minimum GPAs to stay in the program. I also know some medical students who worked so hard in undergrad that they're currently experiencing a delayed adolescence. They're NOT better off when they graduate just because they went to a high-ranking school.

Trusting a doctor because (s)he has a Harvard MD is naive. Trust in who chose to train and employ them as house physicians, regardless of where they went to medical school. They've earned it, or the program wouldn't take a chance on them.

 

[Global Warming]

So he has red hair and wears glasses -- at least give the guy credit by posting a pic of his bod:

(It was listed on his CV under "personal activities": Maintaining a 6-pack sharp enough to cut glass and pecs strong enough crush diamond.)

Seriously though...my end goal is to be a highly intelligent doctor, but also maintain my "coolness". Maybe I am just naive and haven't experienced residency. To be honest, the MCAT has already made my "coolness" level decrease.

 

[JJMrK]

Especially if you're going to follow it up with 7 years of post-grad training. Nothing is quite as awesome as not having a job until you're 37.

Or more, if you want to take advantage of that PhD and do a research postdoc. 😱 Definitely not for me.

 

[ButImLETired]

This may be true, but this is why residency matters more than undergrad (and therefore medical school). One of the physicians I worked with for years had three kids. I knew them from the time they were in junior high...two twin boys and a younger girl. His daughter was a serious student, and his boys were really smart but not motivated. Still, they worked just hard enough to get into Dartmouth. He didn't care what any of them chose to do with their education, but always projected that his daughter was the most likely to go into medicine. (In case you were wondering, she graduated Georgetown with a 3.97 and went into finance.)

The boys partied and barely maintained 3.0 GPAs. But upon graduation, they both (call it a twin thing) decided they wanted to go into medicine. One decided to take a research position in Boston, while the other made a half-hearted attempt at a post-bacc. He succumbed and went to a Caribbean school. The other followed a year later. Once they (respectively) began medical school and understood how crucial it was to be a top student if they even wanted ROTATIONS in NY, they worked hard. They both did extremely well. One is a second-year resident in surgery at Mount Sinai, and the other just started residency...I'm not sure where. I don't know his other son well, but I know the one at Sinai, and even when he wasn't a stellar student, he was already the kind of kid I would trust in a crisis. He was easygoing and personable, yet intense and serious when the situation called for it. And as I mentioned, he's incredibly smart. I wouldn't judge him based upon what he did before he was 24...I judge him based upon what he learned from his past mistakes, and the fact that he's doing incredibly well in an intensely competitive program.

Point is, we all knock the "slackers" who ended up in the Carib and DO schools. But they often surpass their competitors for residency slots, if they work hard enough. I'm graduating in a small program with some combined "BS/MD" students who are currently gearing up for next fall after four years of slacking off because they lost the incentive to study. Mind you, they were mature enough at 17 to get into this program (read: nearly perfect GPAs and SAT scores, Intel scholarships, National blah blah blah...) and they chose to give themselves a break and maintain the bare minimum GPAs to stay in the program. I also know some medical students who worked so hard in undergrad that they're currently experiencing a delayed adolescence. They're NOT better off when they graduate just because they went to a high-ranking school.

Trusting a doctor because (s)he has a Harvard MD is naive. Trust in who chose to train and employ them as house physicians, regardless of where they went to medical school. They've earned it, or the program wouldn't take a chance on them.

I don't necessarily disagree with your whole post, but the bolded is just plain false. It is universally acknowledged that a US-MD grad will take a spot over a carib grad, EVERY time, everything being somewhat equal. In fact, there are a pretty high number of programs in the country that just plain old don't look at Carib students at all, and they tend to be the more university-based, "legitimate" programs out there. I'm not saying that the Carib isn't a good way to go IF YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER CHOICE, but if you go there for any other reason and haven't tried every possible other avenue, you're an idiot.

As for picking a doctor based on where he went to med school, that's also pretty lame. Since the place where someone went to med school is essentially determined by one's performance in college, you can very well end up picking a doctor because he got an A in physics 1 and took a bunch of bs classes to boost his GPA and get him a 4.0. oooooh how impressive! Totally means he's going to be a great doctor!

 

[Beta Cell]

I'd just like to say that I don't think students work so hard to get into top-tier schools (though obviously many students dream of getting in to one or another). I think students work as hard as possible to get into medical school and sometimes their hard work ends up being enough to take them to one of the more competitive schools.

That's an excellent way to put it. It's such a toss-up with who gets into top schools. I really think that Harvard, Yale, Stanford, UCSF, Columbia, etc, given the same applicant pool 2 years in a row, would each produce significantly different classes than the year before. One can only work as hard as one possibly can and hope for the best.

 

[Luun]

You know what. I'm willing to argue the point that any doctor that attends a Caribbean school, whom achieves a residency and has a successful career in the US, has probably worked as hard, or maybe even harder than those who went to school in the US.

I say this because they have to be at the top of their class to have a good shot of getting into a US residency. And then, if they do get one, they have to prove themselves twice as much because of the stigma that many US educated doctors perpetuate.

 

[BerlinDude]

If you want to go into patient care, name recognition will help you get into competitive specialty and top residency programs.

If you want to go into research, name recognition will help you get a faculty position, papers accepted, grants, awards, etc.

If you just want to be a run-of-the-mill doctor, name recognition will help you get a job after graduation.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

You know what. I'm willing to argue the point that any doctor that attends a Caribbean school, whom achieves a residency and has a successful career in the US, has probably worked as hard, or maybe even harder than those who went to school in the US.

I say this because they have to be at the top of their class to have a good shot of getting into a US residency. And then, if they do get one, they have to prove themselves twice as much because of the stigma that many US educated doctors perpetuate.

yes, but that's still like being the champion of the NIT... stil #66...

 

[sustentacular]

Why is it considered acceptable to bash Caribbean schools on SDN but people who suggest that DO schools aren't up to par with US MD schools get ripped a new ass-hole?

 

[Luun]

yes, but that's still like being the champion of the NIT... stil #66...

Your analogy doesn't make sense. I'm saying that if you're able to score a residency in the US with a Caribbean school education and you also go on to practice, you technically are working harder *in the same field* as others who have a US educational background because you are trying to fight the stigma.

Your analogy would only make sense if I were only referring to being the top of your class.

 

[ButImLETired]

Why is it considered acceptable to bash Caribbean schools on SDN but people who suggest that DO schools aren't up to par with US MD schools get ripped a new ass-hole?

Well, for the record, I don't think it's ok to bash any med school cause it sucks to have to be in the position to go somewhere you wish you didn't have to go, either way.

On the other hand, Carib schools have a bad rep because they are there as an acknowledged last resort. It's not really arguable, or a matter of opinion. Unfortunately, there are tons of students in the US who can't make it into the US med schools and who don't want to give up on the dream to become a physician. A bunch of businessmen noticed that there was potential to make money there, and they started med schools offshore to be able to have for-profit MD schools. Med schools in the US get to say that they're non-profit, and their ultimate goal is to fill a need for physicians or physician-scientists or whatever. Carib schools don't get to cloak themselves in either legitimacy or altruism. And while a few of them are certainly legitimate schools, a number of them are a scam.

That's not really the case for DO schools. They started out having a different mission and philosophy, and all but one are still non-profit. Oftentimes, they fill the very real need for primary care physicians. They are supervised by their own version of the AAMC. Many of them have partnerships with some great hospitals and students are competitive both for their own match and the MD match. Statistically, they do much better than the Carib grads. I think the reason why so many people on SDN get so defensive about the DO degree is that a lot of the comments made here stem out of ignorance more than malice. Not everyone in the country knows what a DO is, so people can make some really stupid comments because they just don't have their facts straight. Unfortunately, that's not the case for carib schools, since what people say- that most are in third world countries, that your chances at a residency are basically nil unless you're the top of your class, that you deal with a lot of prejudice from program directors even though you worked your butt off- is actually true.

 

[Wildebeest]

Well, for the record, I don't think it's ok to bash any med school cause it sucks to have to be in the position to go somewhere you wish you didn't have to go, either way.

On the other hand, Carib schools have a bad rep because they are there as an acknowledged last resort. It's not really arguable, or a matter of opinion. Unfortunately, there are tons of students in the US who can't make it into the US med schools and who don't want to give up on the dream to become a physician. A bunch of businessmen noticed that there was potential to make money there, and they started med schools offshore to be able to have for-profit MD schools. Med schools in the US get to say that they're non-profit, and their ultimate goal is to fill a need for physicians or physician-scientists or whatever. Carib schools don't get to cloak themselves in either legitimacy or altruism. And while a few of them are certainly legitimate schools, a number of them are a scam.

That's not really the case for DO schools. They started out having a different mission and philosophy, and all but one are still non-profit. Oftentimes, they fill the very real need for primary care physicians. They are supervised by their own version of the AAMC. Many of them have partnerships with some great hospitals and students are competitive both for their own match and the MD match. Statistically, they do much better than the Carib grads. I think the reason why so many people on SDN get so defensive about the DO degree is that a lot of the comments made here stem out of ignorance more than malice. Not everyone in the country knows what a DO is, so people can make some really stupid comments because they just don't have their facts straight. Unfortunately, that's not the case for carib schools, since what people say- that most are in third world countries, that your chances at a residency are basically nil unless you're the top of your class, that you deal with a lot of prejudice from program directors even though you worked your butt off- is actually true.

Well said. Completely agree with you.

 

[ApoK]

i'd just like to say that i don't think students work so hard to get into top-tier schools (though obviously many students dream of getting in to one or another). I think students work as hard as possible to get into medical school and sometimes their hard work ends up being enough to take them to one of the more competitive schools.

+1!

 

[ApoK]

Well, for the record, I don't think it's ok to bash any med school cause it sucks to have to be in the position to go somewhere you wish you didn't have to go, either way.

On the other hand, Carib schools have a bad rep because they are there as an acknowledged last resort. It's not really arguable, or a matter of opinion. Unfortunately, there are tons of students in the US who can't make it into the US med schools and who don't want to give up on the dream to become a physician. A bunch of businessmen noticed that there was potential to make money there, and they started med schools offshore to be able to have for-profit MD schools. Med schools in the US get to say that they're non-profit, and their ultimate goal is to fill a need for physicians or physician-scientists or whatever. Carib schools don't get to cloak themselves in either legitimacy or altruism. And while a few of them are certainly legitimate schools, a number of them are a scam.

That's not really the case for DO schools. They started out having a different mission and philosophy, and all but one are still non-profit. Oftentimes, they fill the very real need for primary care physicians. They are supervised by their own version of the AAMC. Many of them have partnerships with some great hospitals and students are competitive both for their own match and the MD match. Statistically, they do much better than the Carib grads. I think the reason why so many people on SDN get so defensive about the DO degree is that a lot of the comments made here stem out of ignorance more than malice. Not everyone in the country knows what a DO is, so people can make some really stupid comments because they just don't have their facts straight. Unfortunately, that's not the case for carib schools, since what people say- that most are in third world countries, that your chances at a residency are basically nil unless you're the top of your class, that you deal with a lot of prejudice from program directors even though you worked your butt off- is actually true.

Generally speaking, DO and Caribbean are the options of those who didn't have the numbers to get into US MD. Relatively few people aspire to DO or Carib over US MD.

 

[riverjib]

I don't necessarily disagree with your whole post, but the bolded is just plain false. It is universally acknowledged that a US-MD grad will take a spot over a carib grad, EVERY time, everything being somewhat equal. In fact, there are a pretty high number of programs in the country that just plain old don't look at Carib students at all, and they tend to be the more university-based, "legitimate" programs out there. I'm not saying that the Carib isn't a good way to go IF YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER CHOICE, but if you go there for any other reason and haven't tried every possible other avenue, you're an idiot.

As for picking a doctor based on where he went to med school, that's also pretty lame. Since the place where someone went to med school is essentially determined by one's performance in college, you can very well end up picking a doctor because he got an A in physics 1 and took a bunch of bs classes to boost his GPA and get him a 4.0. oooooh how impressive! Totally means he's going to be a great doctor!

Okay, maybe I overstated a bit. I agree with you. There is no reason to choose a doctor based upon where they went to med schools, but carib MDs are not at an advantage. What I should have said (more carefully) is that if you go the carib route, you should prepare to work harder than any US med student has to for residency. They don't take carib grads as seriously.

But I meant to say was that carib schools don't have to be a joke, as long as YOU take success seriously. The kids I know who are in great residency programs graduated at the top of their carib classes and excelled in NY-based rotations.

I personally only plan to apply to US MD programs...all I meant to say was that all hope isn't lost for those who go other routes...

 

[Narmerguy]

Well, for the record, I don't think it's ok to bash any med school cause it sucks to have to be in the position to go somewhere you wish you didn't have to go, either way.

On the other hand, Carib schools have a bad rep because they are there as an acknowledged last resort. It's not really arguable, or a matter of opinion. Unfortunately, there are tons of students in the US who can't make it into the US med schools and who don't want to give up on the dream to become a physician. A bunch of businessmen noticed that there was potential to make money there, and they started med schools offshore to be able to have for-profit MD schools. Med schools in the US get to say that they're non-profit, and their ultimate goal is to fill a need for physicians or physician-scientists or whatever. Carib schools don't get to cloak themselves in either legitimacy or altruism. And while a few of them are certainly legitimate schools, a number of them are a scam.

That's not really the case for DO schools. They started out having a different mission and philosophy, and all but one are still non-profit. Oftentimes, they fill the very real need for primary care physicians. They are supervised by their own version of the AAMC. Many of them have partnerships with some great hospitals and students are competitive both for their own match and the MD match. Statistically, they do much better than the Carib grads. I think the reason why so many people on SDN get so defensive about the DO degree is that a lot of the comments made here stem out of ignorance more than malice. Not everyone in the country knows what a DO is, so people can make some really stupid comments because they just don't have their facts straight. Unfortunately, that's not the case for carib schools, since what people say- that most are in third world countries, that your chances at a residency are basically nil unless you're the top of your class, that you deal with a lot of prejudice from program directors even though you worked your butt off- is actually true.

I find these two statements to be at odds. The vast majority of DO applicants I know have chosen it after deciding that an acceptance to a US MD school was unlikely. In fact, I know very little instances of applicants who are accepted to both ultimately choosing DO over MD. This isn't meant to bash but why does everyone try to goose step around the truth on this issue? Everyone acknowledges that both produce doctors that can both practice medicine safely and competently for the general public.

 

[ButImLETired]

I find these two statements to be at odds. The vast majority of DO applicants I know have chosen it after deciding that an acceptance to a US MD school was unlikely. In fact, I know very little instances of applicants who are accepted to both ultimately choosing DO over MD. This isn't meant to bash but why does everyone try to goose step around the truth on this issue? Everyone acknowledges that both produce doctors that can both practice medicine safely and competently for the general public.

Hmm maybe so. All I'm saying is that as a rule, one option is DEFINITELY the last resort (hell, they themselves market their schools as last resorts) while the other may be someone's second choice. I didn't apply to DO schools because I have zero interest in primary care, didn't really know much about them to begin with, and figured I'd try for schools I knew and liked first before doing more research. However, if you really want to get picky, technically I also went to a "second choice". Technically speaking, this wasn't my first choice in med school. Sure, I'm totally happy, and have no doubt that this place will take me where I want to go. But many of us end up going to places that aren't our "first choice" and we have to put up with what accepts us. It doesn't have quite the same "last resort" feel as a Carib school.

 

[roseglass6370]

Because I HAVE to be the best at everything!!!

(But no, actually I agree with pretty much everything that was said.)

 

[CapnCrunch]

http://neurosurgery.mgh.harvard.edu//borges/

Why so serious?

Hahahahaha

 

[riverjib]

An addendum to my last post, since I just spent the evening at a party for the surgical center where I worked full-time, and now work per-diem. Life is harder for non-U.S. grads, even when they come from top schools in countries like Egypt and India, where the standards are as high as they are here. They have to take the USMLEs and do residency a second time, and even after that, they have to apply to be considered an MD here. If their schools pass the test and they are allowed to put the MD letters behind their name, they have to pay a hefty sum to do so.