Why Do premeds give such bad advice on the Caribbean?

[oldpro]

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There is so much Urban legend about Medical school from Premeds from

You can get into a US school with a 2.5 and MCAT 18 cause there are a lot that do.........

To: the Caribbean is so primiative and they know it in the US, you will never practice, only 20% ever get a residency kinda talk

I tend to think its from the Competition set up in premed to get into a US school, Bad Advisors ( really bad) and from Hollywood movies and TV and then the flora of the forums.

WHat do you think?

This is mostly for fun please lets not flame

and I just want to see what people will say or vote

OF COURSE it's way better to go to a US school we all know that!

 

[McGillGrad]

Ignorance of the facts

 

[Top Gun]

Because they're premeds. They don't know what they're talking about.

 

[peppy6]

Haha, good idea...so many reasons! one, like you said, is bad advisors in undergraduate institutions who don't have their facts straight...

 

[peppy6]

oh one more thought...a lot of people don't realize that MANY "American" professors actually teach at these Caribbean schools...so if that is one of their reasons, again, partially misinformed

 

[McGillGrad]

It is like everything else in life that is "optional" to learn. Our brains function on a need-to-know basis and the stereotype that is pushed by the AMA and the Canadian medical boards is that anything other than US/Canadian education is inferior.

In a sense, it is not a bad stereotype considering that only 5-7 Caribbean schools churn out good doctors. The rest are sketchy, at best. Then we have a myriad of scam schools (non-WHO diploma mills) popping up in African, South American and Asian (i.e. continent) countries.

The few schools that are excellent in the Caribbean are the exceptions. That is the real problem.

 

[oldpro]

oh one more thought...a lot of people don't realize that MANY "American" professors actually teach at these Caribbean schools...so if that is one of their reasons, again, partially misinformed

Yes I agree as well as they do not understand that Medicine is universal, it is the same concepts all over the world.

3 so far think that we should not be in Caribbean schools, we should have done something else apparently, I expect no less then some to think this way.....no harm, they will mature and understand.

The residency is the biggest myth. You will get one if you work hard and succeed.

 

[Options]

Before I left for AUC, there was a bunch of people in my major that were headed off to a new school in "england", I'm sure many of you remember. Everyone thought I was crazy for choosing caribbean over a school in the U.K., even a few of my professors. I wonder where those people are now.. probably had to transfer to caribbean schools, heh. Moral of the story, people can be really clueless sometimes.
I also agree with the bad undergrad advisors. If I was an advisor in a science major, I would tell the pre-meds.. get out of this major, go major in art, get a high GPA. They don't care if you are a biophysicalchemistry super major, they only look at the numbers. But, they don't, because they have no clue.

Oh well.

 

[bulletproof]

Because they're premeds. They don't know what they're talking about.

Two recent threads in the allopathic premed forums included something to the effect of "Humanities majors should not be allowed apply for Medicine" and "Med. student smokes pot with interviewee after med. school interview..should I report it?"


I mean, talk about cotton-wool, downright ignorant...

As for the three respondants who answered "nothing compares with the U.S." , I would ask if they are aware that the U.S. medical curriculum is based on the British version which predates the U.S. system?

As for the clueless 5 individuals who responded that "you'll never get a residency" YOU ARE OF COURSE AWARE THAT BETWEEN THEM, ROSS AND SGU HAVE OVER 10,000 LICENCED PHYSICIANS PRACTICING IN THE U.S.A. The fact that you are ignorant of this, but decided to respond anyway makes you a candidate for the Darwin awards in my opinion.

I hope that none of these individuals enter the medical arena. We already have bountiful loads of unabashed Amerocentrism and uninformed opinions littering the medical environment. Objective data, Reason, Evidence-based decision making....What are these new fangled fallacies you speak of? Yes, yes...it is much better to wallow here in conjecture, hearsay, and idle gossip. Thinking is hard work...

 

[AngryBaby]

Uhh, I thought we were supposed to be voting on what we thought the main reason for dissing Caribbean schools was. I voted for "Can't Compare to US schools" (or whatever it was) not because that's what I think, but I thought we were voting for what we think those naysayers are thinking.

Does that make sense?? And if so, did I misinterpret the vote's intent?

 

[bulletproof]

Uhh, I thought we were supposed to be voting on what we thought the main reason for dissing Caribbean schools was. I voted for "Can't Compare to US schools" (or whatever it was) not because that's what I think, but I thought we were voting for what we think those naysayers are thinking.

Does that make sense?? And if so, did I misinterpret the vote's intent?

Perhaps. And if that were the original intent, well, I'm not sure how productive that would be, insofar, as the poll would only give speculative analysis. The issue I had, which would still stand in the speculative approach, is the level of misinformation which thrives, and the accompanying high level of 'certainty' with which it is disseminated.

 

[Tired]

You can get into a US school with a 2.5 and MCAT 18 cause there are a lot that do.........

You wish.

 

[GujuMD]

someone told me that caribbean med school grads cannot do fellowships after residency. i am having a hard time believing this considering the fact that some SGU grads have done fellowships.

i am not planning to do fellowship anyways...but just for my FYI

 

[AngryBaby]

someone told me that caribbean med school grads cannot do fellowships after residency. i am having a hard time believing this considering the fact that some SGU grads have done fellowships.

i am not planning to do fellowship anyways...but just for my FYI

That sounds like absolute nonsense. I'm not even going to put the effort into checking that out. FYI, my interviewer was a Peds critical care fellow at Baylor here in Houston.

 

[AngryBaby]

if that were the original intent, well, I'm not sure how productive that would be, insofar, as the poll would only give speculative analysis.

Agreed, I was wondering why the OP posted it in this forum and not the premed or allo/osteo boards. I don't know, I just like clicking little "buttons".

 

[bulletproof]

someone told me that caribbean med school grads cannot do fellowships after residency.

Its true, and whats worse, congress officially enacted the following just this past week:

1. Candidates from non LCME schools are no longer eligible to donate blood.

2. Candidates from non LCME schools are no longer eligible to sell their sperm.

3. Attendance at a non LCME school precludes a candidate from Presidential nomination.

4. So-called "Doctors" from these non LCME schools must wear long Red coats instead of the traditional white coat worn by 'real' Doctors. Upon entering a patients room, they must curtsey, and ensue with "begging your forgiveness sir/maam"

5. All non LCME school candidates shall adhere to the Dr. Nick policy ie. John smith (caribbean) M.D. Shall be referred to as Dr. John etc.


6. There will be seperate water fountains and urinals so as to prevent cross contamination between the AMGs and the FMGs in all hospitals heretoforth.

7.Candidates who received their "M.D." (giggle) from non LCME schools are welcome in Hospital cafeterias between the hours of 2:00pm-2:15pm and 7:00pm to 7:15pm ONLY. Any violations of this rule will result in said violator losing their licence.

8.Candidates from non LCME schools cannot refer to themselves as "practicing" Medicine, but are confined to saying that they "work" at a hospitl. Alternately, they may refer to themselves as Nurses....



True story....

 

[AngryBaby]

Its true, and whats worse, congress officially enacted the following just this past week:

1. Candidates from non LCME schools are no longer eligible to donate blood.

2. Candidates from non LCME schools are no longer eligible to sell their sperm.

3. Attendance at a non LCME school precludes a candidate from Presidential nomination.

4. So-called "Doctors" from these non LCME schools must wear long Red coats instead of the traditional white coat worn by 'real' Doctors. Upon entering a patients room, they must curtsey, and ensue with "begging your forgiveness sir/maam"

5. All non LCME school candidates shall adhere to the Dr. Nick policy ie. John smith (caribbean) M.D. Shall be referred to as Dr. John etc.


6. There will be seperate water fountains and urinals so as to prevent cross contamination between the AMGs and the FMGs in all hospitals heretoforth.

7.Candidates who received their "M.D." (giggle) from non LCME schools are welcome in Hospital cafeterias between the hours of 2:00pm-2:15pm and 7:00pm to 7:15pm ONLY. Any violations of this rule will result in said violator losing their licence.

8.Candidates from non LCME schools cannot refer to themselves as "practicing" Medicine, but are confined to saying that they "work" at a hospitl. Alternately, they may refer to themselves as Nurses....



True story....

That was one of the best posts I've read in a while. I was thinking up some sort of witty reply to the ban on sperm donation when I found myself kind of liking the red coat idea. And the Dr. "First Name" thing. I would seriously consider changing my first name to "Doctor" or "Spanky".

Anyway, very funny post. Me likey.😆😆

 

[bulletproof]

That was one of the best posts I've read in a while. I was thinking up some sort of witty reply to the ban on sperm donation when I found myself kind of liking the red coat idea. And the Dr. "First Name" thing. I would seriously consider changing my first name to "Doctor" or "Spanky".

Anyway, very funny post. Me likey.😆😆

Dr. Doctor, or is that Dr. Spanky? BTW, might I suggest that if you go with Dr. Spanky, you could have a very rewarding career in Urology or Proctology. With Dr. Doctor, Pathology or Radiology could work real nice.

But, you had best get a move on. The bill currently working through the senate recommends instituting a draft forcing all nacent carib. grads into FP, and IM residencies in Utah, Vermont, and South Dakota. There are talks of adding Psych. in Kansas at this point, but Some Senator from Illinois is concerned that Carib. grads won't be able to distinguish Bipolar type I, from Bipolar type II. Its a legitimate concern....

 

[oldpro]

I wanted to know what people thought the reasons were, either they believe these are valid or they have been told or read these things, Over the last three years I have read a lot of this kinda thinking and I know some of it is urban legend.

The voting was the only way I could get a grasp of what was out there I thought.

I think opinion is opinion and not right or wrong, but there are facts and those should be solid.

 

[Top Gun]

Its true, and whats worse, congress officially enacted the following just this past week:

1. Candidates from non LCME schools are no longer eligible to donate blood.

2. Candidates from non LCME schools are no longer eligible to sell their sperm.

3. Attendance at a non LCME school precludes a candidate from Presidential nomination.

4. So-called "Doctors" from these non LCME schools must wear long Red coats instead of the traditional white coat worn by 'real' Doctors. Upon entering a patients room, they must curtsey, and ensue with "begging your forgiveness sir/maam"

5. All non LCME school candidates shall adhere to the Dr. Nick policy ie. John smith (caribbean) M.D. Shall be referred to as Dr. John etc.


6. There will be seperate water fountains and urinals so as to prevent cross contamination between the AMGs and the FMGs in all hospitals heretoforth.

7.Candidates who received their "M.D." (giggle) from non LCME schools are welcome in Hospital cafeterias between the hours of 2:00pm-2:15pm and 7:00pm to 7:15pm ONLY. Any violations of this rule will result in said violator losing their licence.

8.Candidates from non LCME schools cannot refer to themselves as "practicing" Medicine, but are confined to saying that they "work" at a hospitl. Alternately, they may refer to themselves as Nurses....



True story....

 

[oldpro]

Its true, and whats worse, congress officially enacted the following just this past week:

1. Candidates from non LCME schools are no longer eligible to donate blood.

2. Candidates from non LCME schools are no longer eligible to sell their sperm.

3. Attendance at a non LCME school precludes a candidate from Presidential nomination.

4. So-called "Doctors" from these non LCME schools must wear long Red coats instead of the traditional white coat worn by 'real' Doctors. Upon entering a patients room, they must curtsey, and ensue with "begging your forgiveness sir/maam"

5. All non LCME school candidates shall adhere to the Dr. Nick policy ie. John smith (caribbean) M.D. Shall be referred to as Dr. John etc.


6. There will be seperate water fountains and urinals so as to prevent cross contamination between the AMGs and the FMGs in all hospitals heretoforth.

7.Candidates who received their "M.D." (giggle) from non LCME schools are welcome in Hospital cafeterias between the hours of 2:00pm-2:15pm and 7:00pm to 7:15pm ONLY. Any violations of this rule will result in said violator losing their licence.

8.Candidates from non LCME schools cannot refer to themselves as "practicing" Medicine, but are confined to saying that they "work" at a hospitl. Alternately, they may refer to themselves as Nurses....



True story....

I wish it didn't ring so true.............lol

 

[peppy6]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, that was awesome!

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

Its true, and whats worse, congress officially enacted the following just this past week:

1. Candidates from non LCME schools are no longer eligible to donate blood.

2. Candidates from non LCME schools are no longer eligible to sell their sperm.

3. Attendance at a non LCME school precludes a candidate from Presidential nomination.

4. So-called "Doctors" from these non LCME schools must wear long Red coats instead of the traditional white coat worn by 'real' Doctors. Upon entering a patients room, they must curtsey, and ensue with "begging your forgiveness sir/maam"

5. All non LCME school candidates shall adhere to the Dr. Nick policy ie. John smith (caribbean) M.D. Shall be referred to as Dr. John etc.


6. There will be seperate water fountains and urinals so as to prevent cross contamination between the AMGs and the FMGs in all hospitals heretoforth.

7.Candidates who received their "M.D." (giggle) from non LCME schools are welcome in Hospital cafeterias between the hours of 2:00pm-2:15pm and 7:00pm to 7:15pm ONLY. Any violations of this rule will result in said violator losing their licence.

8.Candidates from non LCME schools cannot refer to themselves as "practicing" Medicine, but are confined to saying that they "work" at a hospitl. Alternately, they may refer to themselves as Nurses....



True story....

Funny stuff

Although it does say all non-LCME schools. I still think us DO's were left out of the thinking process/hazing criteria. Unless they had pity on our souls, but I doubt it.

 

[eddie269]

Well, I am just bored coming from the pharmacy forums. I will give my opinion on this issue.

First off, it's a fact that a non-US graduate can be will probably be just as good as a US allopathic doc. Second, it's also a fact that many DO's will be just as good as US MD's. The general perception is US allo > US DO > non-US MD. At least amongst the general public who gives a d@mn about any of this. (I personally don't care, as long as you do your job well.)

With those facts out of the way, here is where your stigma comes from. And I too share some of these views.

US allo schools are the toughest schools to get in. Grant money, researchers, great doc's and top hospitals all contribute to this. That's why Johns Hopkins, UCSF, etc are attracting all the highest GPA/MCAT/papers published/researcher minds from around the world. One usually needs above a 3.6 and above 30 MCAT to even be considered.

With that being said, students with less than stellar stat's will either go for DO or non-US MD schools. And that is where all this stigma comes from. The "smarter," "harder working," "more dedicated" undergrad's all deservingly get their US allo spots. While the "less smarter," "less harder working," and "less dedicated" undergrad's get what's left over at DO and non-US MD schools.

That is what it all comes down to. And you cannot deny the fact that stat's tell a huge part of the story. Not the WHOLE story but enough to GENERALLY view US allo students as "smarter" and "harder working" students, especially during undergrad.

Those are the facts since stat's don't lie. And with those facts comes the stigma. Hence why residencies are harder to get. Not because you're not as smart, but because the PROGRAM will perceive you as not as smart.

Again, in the real world, if I go to a hospital to see a physician, I don't care where he graduated from. As long as his experience proves he's a competent doc.

 

[bulletproof]

Well, I am just bored coming from the pharmacy forums. I will give my opinion on this issue.

First off, it's a fact that a non-US graduate can be will probably be just as good as a US allopathic doc. Second, it's also a fact that many DO's will be just as good as US MD's. The general perception is US allo > US DO > non-US MD. At least amongst the general public who gives a d@mn about any of this. (I personally don't care, as long as you do your job well.)

With those facts out of the way, here is where your stigma comes from. And I too share some of these views.

US allo schools are the toughest schools to get in. Grant money, researchers, great doc's and top hospitals all contribute to this. That's why Johns Hopkins, UCSF, etc are attracting all the highest GPA/MCAT/papers published/researcher minds from around the world. One usually needs above a 3.6 and above 30 MCAT to even be considered.

With that being said, students with less than stellar stat's will either go for DO or non-US MD schools. And that is where all this stigma comes from. The "smarter," "harder working," "more dedicated" undergrad's all deservingly get their US allo spots. While the "less smarter," "less harder working," and "less dedicated" undergrad's get what's left over at DO and non-US MD schools.

That is what it all comes down to. And you cannot deny the fact that stat's tell a huge part of the story. Not the WHOLE story but enough to GENERALLY view US allo students as "smarter" and "harder working" students, especially during undergrad.

Those are the facts since stat's don't lie. And with those facts comes the stigma. Hence why residencies are harder to get. Not because you're not as smart, but because the PROGRAM will perceive you as not as smart.

Again, in the real world, if I go to a hospital to see a physician, I don't care where he graduated from. As long as his experience proves he's a competent doc.

Not that I am disagreeing with what your saying, but its not even that the program may not perceive you as "as smart" as your american trained counterpart. It is also down to having a "flawless" record. If you apply to UCSF radiology as an FMG with 99s on steps I, II CK, your chances of matching are next to nothing, simply because the program will attract 'unblemished' candidates with high scores from U.S. schools.

Many are in caribbean schools because of mistakes made in undergrad. This "blemish" follows them through residency applications, even after many outperform U.S. students on licencing exams ( which you would think were greater indicators of medical smarts than an MCAT, or a GPA ). At some institutions, irrespective of your step scores (ie. how medically smart you are ), you will not get an interview as an FMG. It is looked upon in a "there goes the neighbourhood" type way. If you look on sites such as Scutwork.com, you will see reviews such as.."Great Program. No FMGs, etc." as a testament to this type of sentiment. It is what it is, and its just something you deal with as a FMG. There are thankfully many many programs which place more emphasis on step scores, interview, LORs, than on where you went to school.

With that said everyone going to the carib. should know that irrespective of how well you do in school/exams, your chances of matching categorical plastics, derm, rad. onc., are virtually non-existent for the reasons elucidated above. Yes, there will be exceptions.....but rarely.

 

[eddie269]

With that said everyone going to the carib. should know that irrespective of how well you do in school/exams, your chances of matching categorical plastics, derm, rad. onc., are virtually non-existent for the reasons elucidated above. Yes, there will be exceptions.....but rarely.

And when applying for med school, that is probably the most important aspect of a school: can I match to my desired residency. Just because your school had a few match into derm or plastics doesn't mean it's the norm.

So if I were to advise my little brother who wants to do pre-med, I will definitely tell him to study his butt off in undergrad so you can get into a top US school. With that comes a better chance of getting into a more competitive residency.

Many students start med school without knowing their specialty so when they finally decide in 3rd or 4th year, I'd hate to have someone I care about go "Darnit, derm/plastics/rad onc is going to be a long shot for me since I'm a FMG." If I only worked harder and got into a US school...

 

[Top Gun]

Not that I am disagreeing with what your saying, but its not even that the program may not perceive you as "as smart" as your american trained counterpart. It is also down to having a "flawless" record. If you apply to UCSF radiology as an FMG with 99s on steps I, II CK, your chances of matching are next to nothing, simply because the program will attract 'unblemished' candidates with high scores from U.S. schools.

Many are in caribbean schools because of mistakes made in undergrad. This "blemish" follows them through residency applications, even after many outperform U.S. students on licencing exams ( which you would think were greater indicators of medical smarts than an MCAT, or a GPA ). At some institutions, irrespective of your step scores (ie. how medically smart you are ), you will not get an interview as an FMG. It is looked upon in a "there goes the neighbourhood" type way. If you look on sites such as Scutwork.com, you will see reviews such as.."Great Program. No FMGs, etc." as a testament to this type of sentiment. It is what it is, and its just something you deal with as a FMG. There are thankfully many many programs which place more emphasis on step scores, interview, LORs, than on where you went to school.

With that said everyone going to the carib. should know that irrespective of how well you do in school/exams, your chances of matching categorical plastics, derm, rad. onc., are virtually non-existent for the reasons elucidated above. Yes, there will be exceptions.....but rarely.

I've noticed that too on scutwork.com. The reviewer will frequently write that there are no IMG's in the program as though it is a sign that the program is of good quality. This sort of thing really pisses me off. We all know that IMG's are just as good, or even better, than some of the US grads, but unfortunately the stigma still persists. The only thing IMG's can do is kick ass on their Step exams, do well in clinical rotations, get great letters of recommendation, and impress interviewers. Hopefully, one day program directors in the more competitive specialties will see these qualities in IMG's
and be more open to accepting them.

 

[bulletproof]

And when applying for med school, that is probably the most important aspect of a school: can I match to my desired residency. Just because your school had a few match into derm or plastics doesn't mean it's the norm.

So if I were to advise my little brother who wants to do pre-med, I will definitely tell him to study his butt off in undergrad so you can get into a top US school. With that comes a better chance of getting into a more competitive residency.

Many students start med school without knowing their specialty so when they finally decide in 3rd or 4th year, I'd hate to have someone I care about go "Darnit, derm/plastics/rad onc is going to be a long shot for me since I'm a FMG." If I only worked harder and got into a US school...

Absolutely. I don't think you will find too many on these Boards that would advocate going to the caribbean over a U.S. program.

As for the "If I only worked harder and got into a US School...", There are lots and lots of really bright individuals from all walks of life in caribbean schools. Some are pursueing second careers, others performed less well in undergrad. for numerous reasons, others got accepted from DO schools but wanted the MDs. I think it is a bit of a simplification to reduce it to "If I only worked harder". As the saying goes, "life happens while you're busy making plans". I hope your brother is successful in getting into a U.S. school. For those who have gone before him, and failed, (for whatever reasons), and/or all those who became disillusioned with the (at times) seemingly arbitrary admission process the caribbean has provided an excellent alternative.

P.S. If he does have interest in derm, rad. onc, or plastics, tell him to start hitting the books, and thinking up some research plans. These programs take the creme de le creme, and coming from a U.S. school is a guarantee of nothing in the absence of an impeccable academic record, good interviewing skills, stellar step scores etc.

 

[Bring It On]

So don't put down Caribbean schools unless you know all the facts...top notch school at that!!