Nice try but I applied to 16 places and got interviews from 14. As a matter of fact I'm switching to a more competitive field. Keep making judgements. It's supporting my argument.
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Why do school reject people with above average stats?
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Nice try but I applied to 16 places and got interviews from 14. As a matter of fact I'm switching to a more competitive field. Keep making judgements. It's supporting my argument.
25% of my class doesn't deserve to be in med school (failed, barely passed, need to extend, struggled with 3rd year). You guys have a 75% hit rate. What would happen if a radiologist or pathologist had a 75% hit rate? You played yourselves.
I should mention I go to a top 40 MD school.
I should mention I go to a top 40 MD school.
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What a crock of bs. If 25% of your class is failing, your school would lose accreditation. “Barely” passing doesn’t mean you don’t deserve to be in med school. Pass is a pass. “Struggling” with third year? From my POV it looks like that includes just about everyone. Just because you did really well doesn’t mean that everyone who did not do as well as you doesn’t deserve to be in med school. In actual fact, the attrition rate from medicine for academic reasons is extremely low which anyone with a working internet connection can see for themselves.
If you’re bailing from clinical medicine, it sounds like the adcom made a mistake on you not your classmates.
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When all else fails Goro resorts to ad hominem arguments based entirely on speculation.
I'm "bailing on clinical medicine" because I don't wanna be a slave for the rest of my life. I enjoy science and actual medicine. But you can go write your meaningless SOAP notes and round on patients for hours. REAL satisfying.
I didn't say everyone is failing. I said a significant portion struggle and barely pass. I personally wouldn't want to be seen by a physician who barely passed med school or needed 5 years to finish. But to each their own.
I see that....
Literally makes ZERO sense LOL I made it but the process sucked. My argument is still valid. I have the right to reflect on the process and make judgements.
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deleted787552
People want to ‘run away’ from it cause it’s seen as a waste of time for what you’re paying. Now more than ever, thousands of people are sinking themselves into debt just to get a bachelors that they may or may not be able to use to pay of these loans. On top of all that, people then have to apply for med school with a 60% chance that they won’t make it. The costs really add up there. Even if they get into med school that’s a whole other set of loans they have to take out and in most case they have to take out the ones with higher interest rates cause they already have federal loans from undergrad. From a cost benefit standpoint, you save a lot more money and time from going into medicine right after high school than you would by having to get an undergrad degree. It does have its negatives too but many of the people who support this system do so out of consideration for cost, time, and the fact that they already know they want to go down this route
So somehow non clinical fields are less important? Med students aren't allowed to pursue these fields? Real classy. You clinicians would be playing with your asses if radiology and pathology didn't exist. Grow up.
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Huh? I never said that. Radiology and pathology are still practicing medicine. I took your earlier comment to mean you’re going into banking or something
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How do you explain that 11% of applicants in the last cycle with a 3.8 or higher GPA and a 518 or higher MCAT did not get accepted while 52% of the applicants under 3.6 and a 514 did get in? I realize that some of this stems from in state vs. out of state bias but it also stems from the fact that the medical school admissions process is an unstructured unreliable personality contest. I will remind the dingledorffs who post on this board that my little darling got in on the first try.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/factstablea23.pdf
The University of Florida story is hardly unproven.
THE PRUITT LETTER ON BENJAMIN MENDELSOHN'S BEHALF
Med student admitted without committee's backing
I have no doubt whatsoever that Florida was just the tip of the iceberg. There's too much money involved and this process is not objective or transparent. It invites corruption.
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I have highlighted the increasin acceptance rate with MCAT since you seem to be having trouble. If you can not interact with people or have bad LORS it is not difficult to see why an adcom would be concerned about your ability to behave appropriately in a service industry.
With every rung higher in the GPA / MCAT you still have a higher rate of acceptance.
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Also look at this .
The higher your state averages mcat and GPAs are the higher the Matriculant Averages are. This is not rocket science, schools for the most part get take the highest MCAT/GPA combos they can, while screening for soft skills or red flags like immaturity.
The higher your state averages mcat and GPAs are the higher the Matriculant Averages are. This is not rocket science, schools for the most part get take the highest MCAT/GPA combos they can, while screening for soft skills or red flags like immaturity.
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Seems like a problem with the cost of higher education, not the education model itself
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It's not an ad hominem attack to simply point out what you yourself have written in your ten+ year post history.
EDIT: I will take the advice from my wise colleague Homeskool and retract some of my comments.
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deleted787552
It is but they’re both intrinsically connected. You can’t solve one without it affecting the other
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agree
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deleted787552
Never noticed that the south has the lowest stat averages. Interesting
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this is mostly a historical result. If one is driven enouugh they can apply to the limited bs/md programs that do exist. But if someone is really driven and have ug support they could complete a BS degree in ~2ish years and get into medical school. (not advisable tho).
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Maybe the south does. All of the med students and residents I talk to that went to LSU make me feel better. N=10 or so, but I would estimate the average is no ECs, 3.5 Gpa and 510 on MCAT from those I’ve talked to.
My OMS friend from Ohio however had loads of ECs, nursing research, was CCRN, 3.4 GPA or so, maybe a 510 mcat and got rejected from like 30 medical schools, accepted to two DO schools
My OMS friend from Ohio however had loads of ECs, nursing research, was CCRN, 3.4 GPA or so, maybe a 510 mcat and got rejected from like 30 medical schools, accepted to two DO schools
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You have this gift for taking a single data point and making it the rule.
College admissions nationwide are not standardized, and as I have said previously, med schools are quite upfront as to what they want from applicants. Here's but one example:
Admissions Recommendations - U of U School of Medicine - | University of Utah
This is not Einsteinian physics.
Red flags from an application include weak LORs, or the rare bad LOR, evidence of poor judgement, evidence of poor coping skills evidence of weak academics (such as a downward GPA trend, or an undulating trend. Bad essays or apps filled with errors (like saying "That's why I'd love to attend XSOM", when the app is for YSOM).
And admissions is much more than GPA and MCAT. Those provide the floor, period.
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So much anger in this thread. This conversation needs to get a lot more civil, and I'm not just saying that to the two obvious culprits. They're being unnecessarily nasty, true, but many of you responding to them are being equally discourteous. Clean it up, people. We can be better than this.
I acknowledge and respect the points being made by both sides. As a former applicant, I can personally attest to how badly it sucks when your whole professional future depends on whether a handful of individuals like you and think you fit their mold. I'm a very agreeable person IRL and converse easily with nearly everyone, but I sometimes run into folks with whom I just don't gel. Should I have been denied the opportunity to practice medicine simply because a single interviewer and I had a challenging twenty-minute interaction? On the other hand, does my ability to charm many people necessarily mean I'm going to be a great doctor? Should a single test score determine my future? Or my brief description of a single extracurricular activity?
The problem is that there isn't any single infallible predictor of future success in medicine, so we're forced to use a collection of various data points as surrogates as we decide whom to admit. GPA and MCAT are predictors of an applicant's future academic success, although studies vary in how useful they find these numbers to be (for example, compare this and this). But they are predictors, and they're a quick and objective way for us to decrease the 10,000 applications we receive to a more manageable number.
There are two obvious objections to the use of GPA and MCAT as initial application screens. First, they're fallible: some people with great scores perform poorly in med school; others with lesser stats may perform exceedingly well. Second, we don't adjust GPAs according to undergrad school or program of study. The first point can be answered simply enough by referring to the above-linked studies: they're positively predictive to some degree, and anecdotes about some student doing well/poorly despite bad/good numerical stats are invalid in a logical argument. As to the second point, there were 5,300 postsecondary institutions in the United States as reported by the Washington Post in 2015. How should we go about standardizing GPA between that many schools? Even if we just developed a rubric that standardized things for the 500 most active premed undergrad programs, each student's GPA will vary based on the specific mix of professors they had, the major they were in, and any number of other factors, and such a rubric would exclude applicants from any other US or international institution. There's no way adcoms could standardize GPA in any kind of fair or consistent way, which is why we also have the MCAT. (Additionally, if we made some kind of standardization formula to compare GPAs across schools, I guarantee you we'd get sued so fast it would set our hair on fire.)
Obviously, GPA and MCAT don't tell the whole story, so we read essays and evaluate extracurriculars. And you might be surprised at how important those are in the application review process. On several occasions this year, I've been so impressed either positively or negatively that I've e-mailed our dean of admissions to say, "My numerical rankings should get my point across, but I want to be clear: we definitely should/shouldn't interview applicant X for the following reasons." I've seen some essays that seemed so grossly immature, naïve, or inappropriate that I didn't want to interview the applicant even if they had a perfect MCAT and GPA. I've seen others that were jaw-droppingly impressive in a positive way.
And then there's the interview. I'll be honest: I'm not a huge fan of the traditional interview format. People can predict many of those questions, polish their answers, and hide many of their deficiencies. That's why I'm a fan of the multiple mini interview, which is the way quite a few schools have started to go. By having the same interviewer evaluate all of that day's applicants on a single question and combining the scores given by 8-10 different interviewers, the MMI format helps reduce variability and bias; by forcing applicants to think on their feet and answer questions for which they haven't rehearsed, we uncover interpersonal shortcomings and get a better sense for people's adaptability.
In short, I don't think the medical school admissions process is as arbitrary as its detractors would have you believe, nor do I believe we adcoms are above reproach. The process generally works pretty well as it is, but it has ample room for improvement. The AAMC has encouraged schools to increase the objectivity of the admissions process and that's what we're trying to do. We're not perfect at predicting who'll make the best doctors years in advance of them earning that distinction, but we don't exactly suck at it, either.
To those who disagree with my opinions, I'm happy to engage in a polite debate. I request that you maintain a respectful tone, though, and I reserve the right to ignore anyone who elects to be an ass.
P.S. Sorry if this post wanders a bit. I wrote it on my phone.
I acknowledge and respect the points being made by both sides. As a former applicant, I can personally attest to how badly it sucks when your whole professional future depends on whether a handful of individuals like you and think you fit their mold. I'm a very agreeable person IRL and converse easily with nearly everyone, but I sometimes run into folks with whom I just don't gel. Should I have been denied the opportunity to practice medicine simply because a single interviewer and I had a challenging twenty-minute interaction? On the other hand, does my ability to charm many people necessarily mean I'm going to be a great doctor? Should a single test score determine my future? Or my brief description of a single extracurricular activity?
The problem is that there isn't any single infallible predictor of future success in medicine, so we're forced to use a collection of various data points as surrogates as we decide whom to admit. GPA and MCAT are predictors of an applicant's future academic success, although studies vary in how useful they find these numbers to be (for example, compare this and this). But they are predictors, and they're a quick and objective way for us to decrease the 10,000 applications we receive to a more manageable number.
There are two obvious objections to the use of GPA and MCAT as initial application screens. First, they're fallible: some people with great scores perform poorly in med school; others with lesser stats may perform exceedingly well. Second, we don't adjust GPAs according to undergrad school or program of study. The first point can be answered simply enough by referring to the above-linked studies: they're positively predictive to some degree, and anecdotes about some student doing well/poorly despite bad/good numerical stats are invalid in a logical argument. As to the second point, there were 5,300 postsecondary institutions in the United States as reported by the Washington Post in 2015. How should we go about standardizing GPA between that many schools? Even if we just developed a rubric that standardized things for the 500 most active premed undergrad programs, each student's GPA will vary based on the specific mix of professors they had, the major they were in, and any number of other factors, and such a rubric would exclude applicants from any other US or international institution. There's no way adcoms could standardize GPA in any kind of fair or consistent way, which is why we also have the MCAT. (Additionally, if we made some kind of standardization formula to compare GPAs across schools, I guarantee you we'd get sued so fast it would set our hair on fire.)
Obviously, GPA and MCAT don't tell the whole story, so we read essays and evaluate extracurriculars. And you might be surprised at how important those are in the application review process. On several occasions this year, I've been so impressed either positively or negatively that I've e-mailed our dean of admissions to say, "My numerical rankings should get my point across, but I want to be clear: we definitely should/shouldn't interview applicant X for the following reasons." I've seen some essays that seemed so grossly immature, naïve, or inappropriate that I didn't want to interview the applicant even if they had a perfect MCAT and GPA. I've seen others that were jaw-droppingly impressive in a positive way.
And then there's the interview. I'll be honest: I'm not a huge fan of the traditional interview format. People can predict many of those questions, polish their answers, and hide many of their deficiencies. That's why I'm a fan of the multiple mini interview, which is the way quite a few schools have started to go. By having the same interviewer evaluate all of that day's applicants on a single question and combining the scores given by 8-10 different interviewers, the MMI format helps reduce variability and bias; by forcing applicants to think on their feet and answer questions for which they haven't rehearsed, we uncover interpersonal shortcomings and get a better sense for people's adaptability.
In short, I don't think the medical school admissions process is as arbitrary as its detractors would have you believe, nor do I believe we adcoms are above reproach. The process generally works pretty well as it is, but it has ample room for improvement. The AAMC has encouraged schools to increase the objectivity of the admissions process and that's what we're trying to do. We're not perfect at predicting who'll make the best doctors years in advance of them earning that distinction, but we don't exactly suck at it, either.
To those who disagree with my opinions, I'm happy to engage in a polite debate. I request that you maintain a respectful tone, though, and I reserve the right to ignore anyone who elects to be an ass.
P.S. Sorry if this post wanders a bit. I wrote it on my phone.
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Wow. And you make that judgment based on what grounds? That someone “struggled” at a top 40 school? Shocking. How do you get off judging your classmates, who are EXACTLY the same as you, in such an arrogant fashion?
You post about how you have such good grades, and somehow managed to get in despite a flawed and corrupt process. Ok, that’s great. But what exactly are you trying to prove by being a jerk to adcoms on this forum? That you have a 250 and are still going to be a physician despite a clear personality issue based on these posts (telling strangers they suck at their jobs, that your classmates don’t deserve to be in school etc)? You’re even proving the adcoms’ point by saying you’re not doing clinical medicine. You sound like you have anger management problems, and should not deal with patients.
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Ok. I'm definitely starting to understand why you were rejected from everywhere but 2 schools. I can tell you, it has nothing to do with the Adcoms. You have all the brains but yet emotionally bankrupt. What a shame 🙁. Just think: you could have been in a top 5 institution instead of a top 40
. If only.... *sigh*However, I do think It's a great idea you're moving away from clinical medicine, it is safer for you and most especially the patients
.Why dont you offer to tutor your struggling classmates? 🙂 They might teach you something in return. Perhaps how to be happy... or how to be humble and kind.
Good luck!
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I hate MMIs. All schools have done in adopting them is trade semi-random biases for systematic ones. Their biggest benefit is that they can be farmed out to third parties and thus preserve faculty time.
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That case is actually quite famous in admissions. While Dr. Kone eventually escaped Florida with a settlement and partial repair of his reputation, he nonetheless got fired for going around the committee.
In the intervening years the LCME has modified its standards (http://lcme.org/publications/) to be very specific about the authority and autonomy of the admissions committee. My dean has no interest in meddling in admissions, lest he get Koned.
Ok. I'm definitely starting to understand why you were rejected from everywhere but 2 schools. I can tell you, it has nothing to do with the Adcoms. You have all the brains but yet emotionally bankrupt. What a shame 🙁. Just think: you could have been in a top 5 institution instead of a top 40
However, I do think It's a great idea you're moving away from clinical medicine, it is safer for you and most especially the patients
Why dont you offer to tutor your struggling classmates? 🙂 They might teach you something in return. Perhaps how to be happy... or how to be humble and kind.
Good luck!
Come down from your high horse. I don't need your top 5 institution. Doesn't make you or anyone else a better clinician.
You're happy I'm moving away from clinical medicine? Hmm let's see. 70% of clinical decisions depend on pathology and laboratory services. Radiology is even more, maybe 80%.
Please leave the actual medicine to us. We'll let you know what to do next. You can carry on with your glorified social work and medication micromanagement.
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^^I must agree that sometimes the medical school admissions committees make mistakes. 🙁^^
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Jesus people I love shtposting as much as the next guy but the kids are watching here. Everyone plz behave your alleged stations
Cannot rule out. Clinical correlation recommended.
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I'd love to see you tell the surgeon that you have a patient with appendicitis, without a CT Abdomen w/contrast. That would be a sight to see.
We already addressed this. Yes, ADCOMs suck at their jobs. Keep up please.
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you sound so confident as you prove LizzyM's point with alacrity
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the only thing I need to tell the pannus surgeons is that they're primary. 😎
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To admit people with below average stats.
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Ya'll need to chill. Please adhere to the forum's expected decorum. If we cannot play nice, the thread will be closed. Users throwing insults or enraged by others, remember, there is an ignore feature.
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deleted938090
The maximum MCAT in the data set N=340 here: Does the MCAT predict medical school and PGY-1 performance? - PubMed - NCBI is only 39, so the study cannot be extrapolated beyond that. Similarly VR score maxes at 13 here: Validity of the Medical College Admission Test for predicting medical school performance. - PubMed - NCBI so that cannot be extrapolated beyond that. Combining such a large range of scores and attempting correlation is bound for failure. I don't like the study methodology and I distrust the results. The thing I'm convinced of is that GPA is not a good measure at all, and perhaps should be seen with minimal weight. I'm willing to place money that people with 528 MCAT and isn't a complete asocial rock will perform much above average on STEP and will make a great physician.
I definitely believe that there are people with lesser stats who perform exceedingly well. However, people with excellent scores almost always continue to do so; no studies have been conducted on this so it is speculation at this point. (What percentage of people scoring >=42 or >= 524 on MCAT actually fail or score below average Step 1? Very small I bet). It doesn't matter that there is no content overlap - it is the grit and determination that is demonstrated.
This is unfair for students who do not have access to essay writing help or feedback. Those who have super polished essays - who knows if they asked a literature major to look over their personal statement? What about a professor to look over their statement? What if a student didn't really ask others to look at their statement? This is even more variable than GPA.
I don't like traditional interviews because of their preparatory nature. I have to attend classes, study, do research, etc, I have much less free time to "prepare" for interviews beyond researching the school and knowing myself. People with coaching or participation in speech or debate tend to have better answers, and the delivery of the answer also contributes to its perception. MMI's are better but the truth is that it still is possible to game - more preparation and following a framework will lead to better answers.
To everyone complaining about adcoms on this thread: adcoms are just following data and observation, so if you want things to change, go conduct a longitudinal research study and prove or disprove that certain metrics are good predictors of board or physician success.
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What do you mean make a great physician? Step is not necessarily a measure of how great a physician is, if you have those studies i would like to see them. MCAT is important because it helps predict ability to pass step, and step is important because it helps predict ability to pass Specialty boards. All that being said it is just saying that if you are a good test taker, you are in all likelihood a good test taker. What the literature also shows is that there are diminishing returns on the MCAT after a certain point there i not an increase in ability to complete medical school or pass boards (somewhere around 30 on the old test).Furthermore, the highest correlations between step 1 and MCAT are somewhere in the range of ~.36-.4. All of that to say is that when there is diminishing returns on ability to complete medical school soft measures come more into play. So adcoms look towards volunteering, research, LORS, and other soft criteria to see what people can contribute to society vs just having a class full of 528s. Some would say the mark of great physician is not only in his test taking abilities but rather how they treat their patients.
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deleted938090
Uncertain whether good step = good physician; I was searching through what I wrote and I think the miscommunication occurred at "will perform much above average on STEP and will make a great physician"; I didn't intend to imply good step = great physician. How shall we define what a great physician is? Before we can study that, we need to define it properly first (which I won't try to do here).
It does depend on test taking abilities, but test taking abilities can only contribute so much to an exam. Without knowledge, it doesn't matter if someone is a good test taker - they will still fail step. I think it's a measurement of how well people can prepare for something with a defined scope, which is likely related to persistence. (All speculation - is this a question that can be tackled by research?)
I don't agree with piling all the mcat scores together and running a correlation. There is likely a positive correlation, but statistically, I wished there were correlations for subcategories of scores. Also, this is like saying the world has an average <2 arms and <2 legs each person; affected by outliers and does not generally speak for the trend as well as it could.
How I wish the study were conducted differently would be 1). plot % scoring above x on step vs score on previous exam, etc. to eliminate the effects of outliers and 2) actually have a more representative sample, since the data is lacking on the upper end.
Also although it's easy to write off people as "a 528", the people I've met with 528's tend to also be amazing people as well in other areas. Is there any evidence of soft skills predicting how doctors treat their patients or their impact on society? Without a way of studying that, we can't make value judgements that soft criteria are a better predictor.
If someone gave me a large list of pairs of mcat score and step score, it shouldn't take long at all to make nice matlab graphs that can illustrate the trends better than a simple correlation.
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Lots of words here, let's take it one step at a time..
I think you need to look up "extrapolate" in a dictionary my friend, it means exactly what you're saying it doesn't. Why would a study with a sample size of 340 be expected to include score ranges that are achieved by 1/1000 test takers? What is the validity of stratification in the 39+ MCAT ranges? You should also be aware the verbal section wasn't even scored above 13 for a good while
Basically everybody who applies to medical school went to college, and as such can be presumed to know professors or "literature majors," or at least have reasonable opportunity to do so. If a student didn't ask anyone to look over his/her statement, well... that's like a personal problem.
The only thing you really need to prepare for in a traditional interview is knowing yourself and your application. Your argument is on its face fallacious as evidenced by the gazillion threads and posts about MMI scenarios; there's even a book to prepare for MMI.
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Step knowledge like all knowledge has an attrition curve. So unsure how you plan to extrapolate that to anything else. Who knows what the long term retention is for people ?
Most of the studies I have seen do break it up into subsection analysis for individual mcat subsections, unsure what your complaint is there. You are falling for recall and retrival bias. The only 528 you know is well adjusted , I know a few 520+ score folks that have difficulty holding a conversation in a social situation, its not to say that every 514 is better than them in soft skills, but there are many more 514s to choose from. If there is no evidence of a benefit above a certain threshold , there is realistically no benefit in admitting a 528 vs a 514. As much as you dont want to admit it or deny it , likeability is an asset that people look for. Admins have to deal with the person for the next four years, residency directors have to deal with the person as an employee, and patients have to interact with them.
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deleted938090
As much as I would like to express my dismay at how people butcher what I write, I don't think this is the time or the place for it.
"to project, extend, or expand (known data or experience) into an area not known or experienced so as to arrive at a usually conjectural knowledge of the unknown area "
They don't have data points beyond that, so the results of the study cannot be used for points outside of its range.
Essays will still remain extremely variable. They are not purely the applicants' words - if we wanted a personal statement that reflected only the applicants' writing and thoughts, we should have a timed random prompt.
I literally said "MMI's are better but the truth is that it still is possible to game - more preparation and following a framework will lead to better answers."
Agreed.
"to project, extend, or expand (known data or experience) into an area not known or experienced so as to arrive at a usually conjectural knowledge of the unknown area "
They don't have data points beyond that, so the results of the study cannot be used for points outside of its range.
Essays will still remain extremely variable. They are not purely the applicants' words - if we wanted a personal statement that reflected only the applicants' writing and thoughts, we should have a timed random prompt.
I literally said "MMI's are better but the truth is that it still is possible to game - more preparation and following a framework will lead to better answers."
Agreed.
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Because Harvard may be trying to yield protect me 
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It's not that I'm "butchering" what you wrote, but rather that either your writing is poorly reflective of your thoughts, or your thoughts are ill-conceived to begin with and you are hiding under the cover of alleged miscommunication.
Read your own posted definition again, but slowly.
That's the point and besides you're moving the goalposts. Your primary complaint was, to quote, "This is unfair for students who do not have access to essay writing help or feedback."
You also literally said "I don't like traditional interviews because of their preparatory nature," and I countered MMI is more "preparatory" not less.
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"I say what I want to say and do what I want to do, there is no in between, people will either love you for it or hate you for it"- the GOAT Eminem.
Hopefully I taught y'all some valuable lessons. Now go write your notes, I have some CT scans to read. Thankfully I have a life outside medicine that other specialties can't afford to have. Maybe that's why y'all are miserable? Just a thought.
Hopefully I taught y'all some valuable lessons. Now go write your notes, I have some CT scans to read. Thankfully I have a life outside medicine that other specialties can't afford to have. Maybe that's why y'all are miserable? Just a thought.
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