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I keep reading that on here and was curious. Is it simply because it's better than other schools for the price?
Why does ASDOH get more applications than other schools?
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Low GPA requirements. But what people fail to realize is that this school looks at more than just numbers.
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AZ, at 3600 applicants, is not on the top of the food chain.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=992010
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=992010
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OK so the top 4 have some of the biggest class sizes. That makes sense since applicants probably think they have a better chance.
1. NYU (247)
2. Tufts (190)
3. Boston (115)
4. Temple (136)
#5 is ASDOH with 3601 but with only 76 spaces. I wonder why so many people would take a gamble on a school that doesn't have as many spots.
At my ASDOH interview... The dean spoke to us and told us how proud he was that he only offers interviews to the "highest caliber" student.
He also said "If I wanted a class of 22-25 year old white males with a 3.8+ GPA and a 22+ DAT, I could have it, but, I take pride in the fact that our school interviews truly invested students. Students that want to help those around them and have shown it through their previous work."
He also said "I have a friend that is a dean of 'one of those cali schools' and he was bragging about how he only interviewed students with at least a 20 in every section on the DAT last year... and I paused... and then I said "Who cares? hahahaha!"
So, they clearly run the school to the beat of a different drum... and I think it is obvious and causes a lot of students to want to apply.
Low GPA requirements always help.
He also said "If I wanted a class of 22-25 year old white males with a 3.8+ GPA and a 22+ DAT, I could have it, but, I take pride in the fact that our school interviews truly invested students. Students that want to help those around them and have shown it through their previous work."
He also said "I have a friend that is a dean of 'one of those cali schools' and he was bragging about how he only interviewed students with at least a 20 in every section on the DAT last year... and I paused... and then I said "Who cares? hahahaha!"
So, they clearly run the school to the beat of a different drum... and I think it is obvious and causes a lot of students to want to apply.
Low GPA requirements always help.
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It's the applications per seat available that is high. I haven't checked last year's so I don't know if it's still highest.
On SDN, applicants are generally talked out of applying there when they're given a heads up about the school's philosophy and how they like to screen applicants. But you see so many applicants selecting schools strictly on entrance stats. They can take pride in the caliber of their program all they want, but as has been mentioned, there's a load of applicants that are simply donating money to ASDOH admissions. If they expressed even a ballpark of what they'd like to see quantitatively (hours), that number of applications would tumble.
Great school. But I roll my eyes hard when I hear them brag about that. A little too much PR from them in general.
On SDN, applicants are generally talked out of applying there when they're given a heads up about the school's philosophy and how they like to screen applicants. But you see so many applicants selecting schools strictly on entrance stats. They can take pride in the caliber of their program all they want, but as has been mentioned, there's a load of applicants that are simply donating money to ASDOH admissions. If they expressed even a ballpark of what they'd like to see quantitatively (hours), that number of applications would tumble.
Great school. But I roll my eyes hard when I hear them brag about that. A little too much PR from them in general.
Because clearly people that work hard to obtain high stats aren't "truly invested students" and white people are emotionally incapable of caring and therefore incapable of helping others in any meaningful way as a dentist. What a hateful and deluded individual, and he's suppose to be representative of the school. Glad I'm not applying there.
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umadbro
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This is absolutely appalling. Putting in an exorbitant amount of work to be as academically prepared for DS as you possibly can be doesn't show investment in the field?
I also think it's wonderful that the dean clearly assumes that people who are strong academically can't also be committed to other things.
Maybe there are those people who genuinely want to help others and do volunteer when they can, but know about priorities and putting "first things first." I have done my fair share of volunteering in undergrad, for example, but not 1000+ hours. Do I want to volunteer and give back when I'm a dentist? Absolutely. However, I know that in order to do this, I have to become a dentist in the first place. And, unshockingly, what would best allow me to do this? My performance in undergrad and on the DAT. Though ASDOH might have a different philosophy, it doesn't seem like a secret that numbers reign supreme at many other schools--you can't even make it to an interview without them.
I think that if you are fortunate enough to have the chance to get an education, you ought to show respect to those who are making it possible (whether that be yourself, your parents, and/or generous scholarship donors) and give it your everything. School is my top priority. I'm not going to settle for a B in a class just to get another 50 volunteering hours. Sure, volunteering is important. I'm highly involved with it, but it doesn't take priority over my schoolwork. However, like I said, we have to put first things first--there is plenty of time to volunteer once we've finally achieved our goal of becoming a dentist. Plus, once we've actually made it to that point, we'll be able to help in greater capacities.
There are also those folks who have to work full time on top of going to school. I can't imagine having to support myself while maintaining my grades and the volunteer work I'm currently involved with. It would be impossible. Heck, I even have a job myself, but I don't work nearly as much as I know some of my peers have to.
I fear for my younger brother when he applies to medical/dental school, whichever he decides. He'll be one of those brilliantly gifted "white boys" who are being discriminated against more and more with college admissions.
This whole statement by their dean is abhorrent. I hope he didn't really say it, but I trust JAWSSS. I'll just give him the benefit of the doubt and hope that maybe it just came out wrong. Either way, I'll be using my time and money to apply to one of those schools who accept apparently "uninvested" students like myself.
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This is absolutely appalling. Putting in an exorbitant amount of work to be as academically prepared for DS as you possibly can be doesn't show investment in the field?
I also think it's wonderful that the dean clearly assumes that people who are strong academically can't also be committed to other things.
Maybe there are those people who genuinely want to help others and do volunteer when they can, but know about priorities and putting "first things first." I have done my fair share of volunteering in undergrad, for example, but not 1000+ hours. Do I want to volunteer and give back when I'm a dentist? Absolutely. However, I know that in order to do this, I have to become a dentist in the first place. And, unshockingly, what would best allow me to do this? My performance in undergrad and on the DAT. Though ASDOH might have a different philosophy, it doesn't seem like a secret that numbers reign supreme at many other schools--you can't even make it to an interview without them.
I think that if you are fortunate enough to have the chance to get an education, you ought to show respect to those who are making it possible (whether that be yourself, your parents, and/or generous scholarship donors) and give it your everything. School is my top priority. I'm not going to settle for a B in a class just to get another 50 volunteering hours. Sure, volunteering is important. I'm highly involved with it, but it doesn't take priority over my schoolwork. However, like I said, we have to put first things first--there is plenty of time to volunteer once we've finally achieved our goal of becoming a dentist. Plus, once we've actually made it to that point, we'll be able to help in greater capacities.
There are also those folks who have to work full time on top of going to school. I can't imagine having to support myself while maintaining my grades and the volunteer work I'm currently involved with. It would be impossible. Heck, I even have a job myself, but I don't work nearly as much as I know some of my peers have to.
I fear for my younger brother when he applies to medical/dental school, whichever he decides. He'll be one of those brilliantly gifted "white boys" who are being discriminated against more and more with college admissions.
This whole statement by their dean is abhorrent. I hope he didn't really say it, but I trust JAWSSS. I'll just give him the benefit of the doubt and hope that maybe it just came out wrong. Either way, I'll be using my time and money to apply to one of those schools who accept apparently "uninvested" students like myself.
Do diatribes directed to a ds dean qualify as "snarky" comments?
Not really. Selecting for mediocre students will yield mediocre dentists. Which is a good thing for intelligent and competent dentists because they will have less competition to deal with and a bigger bank account.
At the end of the day the school's unique admissions process will only harm society as a whole because the people are going to be the ones having difficulty getting access to good and effective dental care.
It's really sad the way people talk on this site. Stats are not everything!! Dentistry is the most people person intensive job in the country. This school is integrating people who have more than just stats: volunteering and personal achievements along with stats to prove hard work. Just because someone doesn't have a 4.0 and a 22 DAT does not mean they are not working hard.
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Doc, we all know you're the authority. I'll defer to your expertise.
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That isn't the point whatsoever, nor is it what the dean said. If these words truly left his mouth, he's immediately writing off anyone who is successful academically. Who says you can't be academically secure AND have volunteering AND have personal achievements? It absolutely happens.
Even with my 26AA and 3.97 GPA, I also logged nearly 600 volunteer hours during college. For kicks, I'll add that I also have a few hundred hours of work experience. It appears that despite this, I just might be too "white" and too smart.
Did you read what ryansgs and I posted? We never slammed people who weren't just "numbers." And I never mentioned money.
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wut
Strawman. I never said that. Re-read my post. Clearly my concern is for something greater.
There have been plenty of studies... A higher GPA and a higher DAT/MCAT score does not correlate with being a better dentist or physician.
Also, He never said he selected mediocre students... He just has a selection criteria that he feels selects to most PREPARED and SERVICE-ORIENTED dentists.
Glimmer, This does not mean that he NEVER selects someone with high stats... It just means that his criteria does not leave out those with lower stats that have also CLEARLY demonstrated a desire to work with underserved populations.
Everyone at my interview day have 1,500+ of major community service. There were students with 26 AAs and a student with an 17 AA (and he was proud of it).
ASDOH has a unique selection criteria that will allow them to select students that BEST fit their mission statement. ASDOH has a wonderful campus and a wonderful staff and it has an awesome reputation for a reason.
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So mediocre stats = mediocre student = mediocre dentist?
This same conversation comes up every year, and it brings out those who have very limited familiarity with the program. Not saying that's you, but it makes things pretty interesting. Of course we're entitled to opinions and I have my own reservations about how some things are done over there, but they're hardly graduating mediocre students.
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I'd hate to be that white person with the 26AA sitting in the audience when he said that. It would make me feel unwelcome. Oh well.
Reread it again. Never said all I care about is money. My concern is the impact of their "unique" admissions processes on society as a whole (lack of quality dental care for people). And how they consider it to be okay to discriminate against one group based on their grades and ancestry, if it was another group media and politicians would be up in arms in outrage.
So you believe GPA and DAT scores aren't good enough tools to evaluate if a student would one day be a good dentist?
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No. That's quite the leap. Those MIGHT indicate success in the didactic dental school curriculum (research isn't exactly conclusive).
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Ok so I'm going to conclude that ASDOH gets many applications despite the limited class size because the applicants aren't knowledgeable about the mission and goals of the school.
It might be safe to assume that those who have the goal of a more traditional dental career (private practice rather than working with an under served population) would see their application money go further at another school.
It's a shame that people don't spend their money more wisely by doing more research on the schools that they're applying to.
It might be safe to assume that those who have the goal of a more traditional dental career (private practice rather than working with an under served population) would see their application money go further at another school.
It's a shame that people don't spend their money more wisely by doing more research on the schools that they're applying to.
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Great GPA and DAT scores don't necessarily translate great dentists, there are many dental students who perform great in their didactic coming in with high GPA and DAT but do poorly in clinical settings. Sure, there are students with high GPA and DAT who do great, there are students with high GPA and DAT who don't perform as well, then there are students who come in with low GPA and DAT who do great in dental schools or not.
The main point is that when Dillenberg said "If I wanted a class of 22-25 year old white males with a 3.8+ GPA and a 22+ DAT, I could have it, but, I take pride in the fact that our school interviews truly invested students. Students that want to help those around them and have shown it through their previous work," he's not trying to put white people with high GPA and DAT down or discriminate against them,majority of ASDOH students are white people, all he's trying to say is that ASDOH strives to find students who care, don't matter if theyre white, black, brown, yellow, etc.
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Saying a dentist helps people is like saying that a car mechanic helps people…..if you want to truly help people join the peace corp……if you want to make money be a dentist.
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High grades don't mean anything except that you work hard and believe that you can change your outcome by adjusting your behavior. It's interesting how people who perform poorly in classes do so because they think their abilities are unchanging and not improvable. Clinical skills are just as improvable as basic science grades. I don't mean to be a braggart but I do well on all my science classes but started average on my lab work. So I spent more time improving my hand skills and ended the semester on a good note. A person who did well in college is more likely to put in hard work on areas they're not great at than someone else who had a history of iffy performance. A good student is also more likely to take pride in their work and tend to try their best at all they do than be someone who is just trying to skate by.
ASDOH is just another private dental school operating like a typical business. Their mission is to produce a ton of general dentists who will only do general dentistry. It doesn't make sense that they'd try to get the 4.0's, 24 AA who plan to specialize or teach because ASDOH has got zero money invested in basic science research and can't afford more than one specialty department. I'd rather accept the 4.0, 24 AA student who I'm sure can handle dental school over 3.2, 18 AA student. No 4.0 GPA, 24 AA student would pay as much as it costs to go to an Ivy to only end up at ASDOH so instead of ASDOH's dean saying his school can't compete to get these awesome students, he just says that he's looking for a "different" kind of applicant. Typical business strategy. They know their school is absurdly expensive for what it is so they say they're looking for people who are "altruistic". In other words, they want people who don't care that they'll be $350,000 in debt. They say they want to produce GPs. That's because they can't afford an endo., perio., pedo., or oral surgery department. They say they want to focus only on community service. But that's because they can't compete for research grants and attract researchers. Name one school that doesn't have community service (this is something any school can do because it doesn't cost any money -- it's all donated money or tax credit) but how many low budget newly opened schools can afford expensive basic science research?
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i'm already regretting opening this can of worms....
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I see your point, I can see why you would say, it's true that ASDOH doesn't have any specialty programs, although from what I heard students there do perform oral surgeries and other specialty (I'm not an ASDOH student BTW), they are geared towards producing a lot of general dentists, they have no research, and yeah to a certain degree it is their business model but what school doesn't? School is a business after all, they have to generate money anyways and they gotta have a selling point. And ASDOH truly does a lot of community service and public work compared to most other schools relatively. There is no right or wrong school after all. Each school is different and it is up to the students to find which school is right for them. No need to bash other schools because you didn't get in or you don't like this particular dean or for any reasons.
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Public schools are short on state subsidy meaning more costs have to be pressured on the student. Private schools already rely entirely on the student which sucks big time if you go there. Be my guest to choose a school based on how new the paint, walls, and floor tiles are. Maybe the building looks new because....the school is new? *facepalm*
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Depends on the state. Both illinois publics are feeling their budgets getting tighter. But that's mostly due to the state of illinois' budget problems. And as far as mwu-il goes, it will always be more expensive than the publics due to no state support. So why do people go to mwu-il and the other no name new private schools? 9 out of 10 times, it's because that was their only acceptance (or they had another acceptance from a similar money-sucking school).
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Interesting statistic you've got there.
Also, from my vantage point, every school is a money-sucker.
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Saying a person with a low gpa will end up a bad dentist is so wrong. A lot of people with 4.0s are bad in lab settings and not good people persons. Also, all the dentists I've shadowed and one I work for even say after dental school practicing becomes robotic. You're so used to it you don't really need to think about the procedure unless of course a bump in the road occurs.
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Fair enough, if you couldn't tell I pulled that statistic out of my arse. I amend the previous statistic and replace it with majority. Also some schools are much bigger money-suckers than others. Which is why some students will be ~150k in debt from D school, while others around 500k in debt for the exact same degree.
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People(including me) think getting into ASDOH is easy because they have lower average GPA and DAT compared to other schools. However, that is NOT the case...
I got rejected with a 4.0 GPA.
I got rejected with a 4.0 GPA.
Someone with a 3.8 and 25+ DAT doesn't mean that he/she will a be better dentist than someone with a 3.3 and 20 DAT. Things like where that individual went to undergrad should be taken into consideration (eg Duke/Vanderbilt/Ivy vs. eh-state school). I could have easily gone to my state school (an easier college, closer to my home, etc.) but I didn't and chose a harder, more difficult school further away from home (at least a plane ride away). With that being said, my undergraduate GPA suffered greatly my first year due to homesickness and affected my overall undergrad career. So I had to do a Master's (which I was ok with) but at EVERY SINGLE of my 8 interviews, they mentioned my undergraduate institution and were impressed.
Also, not everyone is excellent at standardized test taking and when you're actually practice dentistry, you're not sitting in front of a computer, clicking answer. Now I agree there are certain standards that are necessary to ensure an individual does have the scientific background in order to succeed at dental school. But its nice to see that schools want to ensure that their students have a personality behind their grades and the 20 DAT student might connect better with a patient/make them feel more at ease than the 26 DAT student. I think when the Dean said that, he meant, he could have easily sent out those acceptances based on application alone and not personality but gives people a chance across the board. Again, hopefully within reason, ensuring that students would be able to handle the course load.
As for the privileged "white boy" comment, I assure you the white man is not being discriminated against nor will you ever be discriminated against. If hard work is put in, regardless of race or gender, it should and will be recognized. I'll also note that I'm not an URM but in fact, an over-represented minority in the healthcare field.
Ok. End speech. Phew.
p.s. I actually did not apply to ASDOH but there were just too many things on this thread that I didn't feel comfortable with. As the student with a 3.0 undergrad GPA and 20 DAT, I felt quite hurt and ashamed that fellow future colleagues would judge me on stats alone proclaiming I'd make a "mediocre" dentist.
Also, not everyone is excellent at standardized test taking and when you're actually practice dentistry, you're not sitting in front of a computer, clicking answer. Now I agree there are certain standards that are necessary to ensure an individual does have the scientific background in order to succeed at dental school. But its nice to see that schools want to ensure that their students have a personality behind their grades and the 20 DAT student might connect better with a patient/make them feel more at ease than the 26 DAT student. I think when the Dean said that, he meant, he could have easily sent out those acceptances based on application alone and not personality but gives people a chance across the board. Again, hopefully within reason, ensuring that students would be able to handle the course load.
As for the privileged "white boy" comment, I assure you the white man is not being discriminated against nor will you ever be discriminated against. If hard work is put in, regardless of race or gender, it should and will be recognized. I'll also note that I'm not an URM but in fact, an over-represented minority in the healthcare field.
Ok. End speech. Phew.
p.s. I actually did not apply to ASDOH but there were just too many things on this thread that I didn't feel comfortable with. As the student with a 3.0 undergrad GPA and 20 DAT, I felt quite hurt and ashamed that fellow future colleagues would judge me on stats alone proclaiming I'd make a "mediocre" dentist.
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Tufts Syndrome in disguise.
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I got accepted the day after I interviewed and since it was open file they basically told me it was what I wrote (personal statement) and what other people wrote (lors) that influenced them to take a chance on me. I think they weigh those two aspects more important than the gpa and dat that's all.
