Why does diabetes insipidus cause edema?

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auburnO5

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I understand the mechanism of DI..

either no ADH (central) or ADH can't stimulate principal cells (nephrogenic) --> no H20 reabsorption in distal nephron --> hyposmolar urine?

So if you are losing alot of water and excreting a hyposmolar urine, wouldn't this cause volume contraction? I don't really understand the edema part.

Thanks in advance!

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It does cause volume contraction and it does not cause edema.
 
I've never heard of diabetes insipidus causing edema.
 
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Where are you getting that DI causes edema?

The only thing I can think of that associates DI with edema is if the patient gets DI, they lose a ton of water without an associated loss of sodium and they become hypernatremic. The physician then mistakingly treats dehydration by giving rapid infusion of normal saline and it results in cerebral edema (and probably edema of other tissues), herniation, and all that jazz.
 
Where are you getting that DI causes edema?

The only thing I can think of that associates DI with edema is if the patient gets DI, they lose a ton of water without an associated loss of sodium and they become hypernatremic. The physician then mistakingly treats dehydration by giving rapid infusion of normal saline and it results in cerebral edema (and probably edema of other tissues), herniation, and all that jazz.

For the record, if someone is super-hypernatremic from DI (like my patient in the 170s), you do want to start with normal saline. At that level even normal saline is hypotonic, and they need volume. Also, if you know they got to that level quickly, you can reverse it pretty quick.
 
Sticking away from the kidney: It happins in the retina because of leaky newly formed vessels. Maybe this also happens elsewhere? Either way, angiogenesis is poorly studied with respects to diabetes.
 
Sticking away from the kidney: It happins in the retina because of leaky newly formed vessels. Maybe this also happens elsewhere? Either way, angiogenesis is poorly studied with respects to diabetes.

You do realize that diabetes insipidus and diabetes mellitus are two different, unrelated entities, right?

(sorry for the intrusion...I will leave med-student land and return to my lair...)
 
For the record, if someone is super-hypernatremic from DI (like my patient in the 170s), you do want to start with normal saline. At that level even normal saline is hypotonic, and they need volume. Also, if you know they got to that level quickly, you can reverse it pretty quick.

Oh I didn't know that. Is there any reason why the scenario I gave above doesn't happen? Is it because they become hypernatremic very quickly so theres no time for the tissues to equillibriate? I always figured in this situation you would always prefer to rehydrate via NS slowly or by water orally if at all possible because of the cerebral edema risk.
 
if a patient was volume depleted from DI and had some condition that could cause edema ( like right heart failure or portal htn), then the edema could unexpectedly arise after volume correction. is that what you are talking about?
 
Oh I didn't know that. Is there any reason why the scenario I gave above doesn't happen? Is it because they become hypernatremic very quickly so theres no time for the tissues to equillibriate? I always figured in this situation you would always prefer to rehydrate via NS slowly or by water orally if at all possible because of the cerebral edema risk.

Usually they keep up with the water loss through thirst, but then something happens and they can't drink as much. My patient got pneumonia and was admitted to the hospital. Over 12 hours her Na went up like 25 points. You start with NS to fluid resuscitate them, then switch to like D5W and ddAVP. If it's central DI, the kidneys take over, leading to dramatic improvement.

If it is nephrogenic DI, the treatment is a thiazide, which may be where the OPs confusion is coming from.
 
Even patients with bad central DI can usually keep up with themselves if they have unrestricted access to hypotonic fluids, even without dDAVP. In the correct dosing, dDAVP fixes the problem and normalizes urine output and free water content. We usually try to under-dose them a little to prevent an SIADH situation from developing.

Central DI in patients without intact thirst is a challenge. In the neuroICU, patients with severe ICP elevations or post-op pituitary tumors are the usual culprits. You have to take over both their free water and salt maintenance, which is hard. People in florid DI make liters of urine an hour, and you can put them into circulatory collapse if you don't keep up with them. You treat them by putting back what they put out, and since they are making very dilute urine (usually specific gravity < 1.005), then you give them back D5W. Of course, you need to get them on a dDAVP regimen as well, and the dosing can be tricky. Blood loss, fever, diarrhea, etc. are also going on in the background, making it very difficult to assess and maintain appropriate volume status. Salt and water are intimately related, and once one of them gets off relative to the other, it can be tough to fix.

You can quickly correct sodium on a hyponatremic or hypernatremic patient if they developed the situation quickly. The reason is that the brain requires time (many hours to days) to normalize cellular water. Acute hyponatremia causes cerebral edema, and chronically the cells decrease the amount of idiogenic osmoles to circumvent this. Correction too quickly in a chronically hyponatremic patient can cause myelinolysis, classically pontine but it can happen in other places too. In a hypernatremic patient, the situation is different in that loss of cellular water essentially shrinks the brain. To try to counteract this chronically, the brain cells increase idiogenic osmoles to try to recruit water back. If you then suddenly drop the sodium, the brain tissue sees a huge osmotic gradient and swells, creating cerebral edema.

Classic example, and one that we do see, is marathon runners who drink only water during the race. They lose a ton of salt in their sweat and don't eat enough to replace it, and they drink only water which exacerbates the problem. They then pass out and seize, and come into the ED with a sodium of 115. Their problem is cerebral edema, and you want to fix it ASAP before they herniate and die. So you give them 23% saline boluses (30mL) and start them on a brisk 3% sodium chloride infusion. Mannitol would work too to decrease the edema, but they are likely volume depleted already, and you risk making that worse. The sooner you fix their sodium, the sooner they get better.
 
Even patients with bad central DI can usually keep up with themselves if they have unrestricted access to hypotonic fluids, even without dDAVP. In the correct dosing, dDAVP fixes the problem and normalizes urine output and free water content. We usually try to under-dose them a little to prevent an SIADH situation from developing.

Central DI in patients without intact thirst is a challenge. In the neuroICU, patients with severe ICP elevations or post-op pituitary tumors are the usual culprits. You have to take over both their free water and salt maintenance, which is hard. People in florid DI make liters of urine an hour, and you can put them into circulatory collapse if you don't keep up with them. You treat them by putting back what they put out, and since they are making very dilute urine (usually specific gravity < 1.005), then you give them back D5W. Of course, you need to get them on a dDAVP regimen as well, and the dosing can be tricky. Blood loss, fever, diarrhea, etc. are also going on in the background, making it very difficult to assess and maintain appropriate volume status. Salt and water are intimately related, and once one of them gets off relative to the other, it can be tough to fix.

You can quickly correct sodium on a hyponatremic or hypernatremic patient if they developed the situation quickly. The reason is that the brain requires time (many hours to days) to normalize cellular water. Acute hyponatremia causes cerebral edema, and chronically the cells decrease the amount of idiogenic osmoles to circumvent this. Correction too quickly in a chronically hyponatremic patient can cause myelinolysis, classically pontine but it can happen in other places too. In a hypernatremic patient, the situation is different in that loss of cellular water essentially shrinks the brain. To try to counteract this chronically, the brain cells increase idiogenic osmoles to try to recruit water back. If you then suddenly drop the sodium, the brain tissue sees a huge osmotic gradient and swells, creating cerebral edema.

Classic example, and one that we do see, is marathon runners who drink only water during the race. They lose a ton of salt in their sweat and don't eat enough to replace it, and they drink only water which exacerbates the problem. They then pass out and seize, and come into the ED with a sodium of 115. Their problem is cerebral edema, and you want to fix it ASAP before they herniate and die. So you give them 23% saline boluses (30mL) and start them on a brisk 3% sodium chloride infusion. Mannitol would work too to decrease the edema, but they are likely volume depleted already, and you risk making that worse. The sooner you fix their sodium, the sooner they get better.

23% saline at your shop? impressive. can you put that through a peripheral line or you need central for it? At my place, they won't even put 3% through a PIV, though I'm sure I could get someone to do it in the ER on a seizing pt if push came to shove.
 
We give 3% through a peripheral IV in the unit, with no limit on the infusion. On the floor I don't think they're allowed to do more than 30cc/hr through a PIV.

23% saline should be central, and is an indication for a CVL. If you don't have central access you can give mannitol through a PIV while you're tossing in a line. However, once in a while we'll run the 23% through a PIV if the situation is sufficiently dire.

Either 23% or mannitol extravasation through a PIV is a disaster, and can cause compartment syndrome very quickly. So the concerns are not theoretical. I've taken care of a few people who had to have their forearms filleted and dermis stripped for that issue. But they did live, and skin regenerates a lot better than brain.
 
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