Why doesn't residency admissions work the same way as med school admissions?

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There's a prior thread I started about reforming the match, worth a read: NRMP Match: Good, bad or ugly?

Trying to decrease application numbers is very complicated. It's a classic example of the Prisoner's Dilemma. It's best if everyone decreased their applications to a reasonable number of programs they were actually interested in. But it's to everyone's advantage to defect -- if everyone else applies in a focused manner, and you apply broadly, you'll get many more interviews than everyone else. Game theory tends to show that if the same people repeat similar decisions in settings like this, they tend to learn to "cooperate". But in the short term, everyone defects. /MathNerd

Focusing on only US MD's isn't a good long term strategy. There are lots of programs that fill with only DO / IMG candidates, and plenty that fill with a mix. Any solution that ignores them is going to fail.

I'm not a fan of the 3 phase system as written. As I mentioned in the attached thread, I'd add an early app phase with a limit of how many spots can be filled in the early phase. The timeline of the early phase would need to be pushed forward so that they could avoid interview costs. It would be difficult to get the whole early phase done prior to main apps going out, but it might be possible.

I've heard the prisoners dilemma analogy, and I don't think it captures the whole problem.The prisoners dilemma problem implies that if both parties cooperate they will get the optimal outcome but if they don't they will both lose. In this case cooperation isn't in their best interest, both parties are competing with each other for the optimal outcome. It implies that both players are in the same position, all players in the game can communicate, and the two players aren't necessarily going to be harmed no matter what type of strategy they employ, but there can be negative consequences for other people involved.

The thing with overapplication, when I look at it, is that unless you are in the 90th percentile, sending more applications than you need is just too good. It minimizes the risk of the worst possible outcome to the point of non-existence, and it maximizes the chances of the best possible outcome. When everyone does it, you basically have to do it because everyone else overapplying actually makes it hard for you to compete. Overapplication works, it's just a good strategy so you're going to do it because you want to win. Sure it might make it awful for everyone, and you're not happy about it: but it works and that's all that matters.

I would compare overapplication to bottle crowing in Dota 2. 5 people will understand what I'm talking about and you're probably reading this like I'm on drugs, but hear me out. In Dota 2 the map is divided into 3 lanes, the middle lane is generally played as a 1v1 matchup. So back 6-7years ago there was a thing called 'bottle crowing' and it was an absolute scourge. Basically there's an item called the bottle which comes with three charges that give you health and mana, which is enough to give you north of 1/2 your health and mana back. The charges on the bottle can be refilled by returning to base or by getting the rune that spawns every two minutes.

In Dota there's a courier that delivers items to you without you having to return to the main base and missing out on gold and experience and falling behind your opponent. In this particular iteration of the game each team had to share a single courier. Well it turns out there was this really cool thing you could do if you didn't get the rune or were just low without having to leave the base: you could have the courier come to you, put your bottle on it, run it to base it would refill your bottle.

So this was something that was known about for years, and it didn't become a problem overnight. Slowly players began abusing this mechanic more and more and eventually it got to the point that both mid players were doing it non-stop in an even matchup because winning mid is really important. Think about it. If your goal is to bully your opponent out of the lane by killing them or dropping their HP so low they would die if they stayed. Always having more regen than them is a pretty good strategy. So bottle crowing all the time or at least more than your opponent is by extension: not the worst of ideas. Now you might say that's fine because they are using their team's resources, but it has downstream effects on the entire game. Who isn't using the courier while its refilling the bottle for your braindead Magnus for the 12319313817th time? The 4 other players in game, it makes the game less fun because you can't use a feature of the game if you're not playing mid. Worse still it actually just makes the game dumb, what fun is the mid matchup if you can't win or lose unless you are absolutely pounding the other player or getting pounded? It makes everything stupid.

So how does this all tie back to applying to residency? Well they're kind of the same type of interaction if you think about it. There are less ortho slots than applicants so somebody is going to lose out. So if applying to more slots gives you a better chance, applying more than everyone else is the best strategy to ensure you're not going to get shut out regardless of how competitive you are. The less competitive you are, the more over-applying does for you. The more you bottle crow, the more likely you are to win mid. If you're ahead and your opponent wins the lane because they bottle crowed, you lost because you didn't bottle crow. If you got shut out because you didn't send 80 ortho applications this cycle while everyone else did, you got shut out because you didn't send 80 otho applications.

Sure we could give people more information about where to apply but the problem remains that just applying to more residency programs than everyone else is just that good. Not having enough information about residency programs isn't the reason why applicants are sending an increasing of applications every year and giving them more information won't be the reason they'll stop. This ain't a scene, it's an arms race.

Focusing on only US MD's isn't a good long term strategy. There are lots of programs that fill with only DO / IMG candidates, and plenty that fill with a mix. Any solution that ignores them is going to fail.

I don't think an application cap inherently hurts DO students or IMGs nor does having no application cap benefit them. I mean there's nothing stopping you from applying to a program or two that you aren't as competitive for and just seeing what happens and spending the rest of your applications on places you know your odds are pretty good. That said, it's probably good that there are systems in place that will recommend you places where you should apply based on where you stand and suggest applicants that you want. That should already exist because its just a good idea, it's easy to implement, and everyone can agree they want it. The cynic in me says that it if that if such a system were to reduce applications by a significant amount, the AAMC won't implement it because it would lose them a lot of money. They make 90 million a year from ERAS. I'm not a hotshot sys admin but I really, really doubt it costs more than a few million for servers to run ERAS, if that.

All that said I think the long term solution is to give people options if they don't match into residency. Now, I know I'm not a doctor or in medical school yet. But the idea that a PAs and NPs can go to school for 2 years while and practice in a subordinate role while also having a pathway to independent practice in some states but someone who went to school for 4 years can't do the same is ridiculous and its obvious. Not matching into residency shouldn't be this mark of shame. At the same time we obviously need to have more residency slots but that involves funding them through medicare or some other means and involving a government that is at current, wholly ineffective.

I'm not a fan of the 3 phase system as written. As I mentioned in the attached thread, I'd add an early app phase with a limit of how many spots can be filled in the early phase. The timeline of the early phase would need to be pushed forward so that they could avoid interview costs. It would be difficult to get the whole early phase done prior to main apps going out, but it might be possible.

I don't like it because you really shouldn't need to run what is essentially second match. The match should just.... work. Spots are always going to go unmatched. People should be applying to programs they are interested in and are realistic for how competitive they are, period. I think in the first couple of years with an application cap you could potentially have a ton of unmatched slots because everyone is still figuring the match out again. But if its happening too much after like 3-4 years then the application cap just needs to be raised.
 
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I don't think an application cap inherently hurts DO students or IMGs nor does having no application cap benefit them.

An application cap as low as you're proposing would absolutely destroy a lot of DO and IMG's. Hell, it would hurt a lot of low tier MD students and isolate them geographically and also in terms of program tier. See below.
I mean there's nothing stopping you from applying to a program or two that you aren't as competitive for and just seeing what happens and spending the rest of your applications on places you know your odds are pretty good.

People match up out of their current level of prestige all the time. You are isolating people to the level of their school. People would be terrified to apply to programs they really want to go to because they would risk not matching. From California and want to go back but you are at Georgetown? You either throw all your apps at California programs and hope you match, or you apply locally and increase your match odds significantly.

Again, I'm a DO who will be applying to a surgical field. People match low-mid tier Uni programs with my app on a fairly frequent basis, but I would never throw out an app to those places. I would target the DO community programs I KNOW I have an above average chance to match at. I would be significantly hamstringed by a stringent application cap. Make it 60 programs and then sure, I can work with that, although the more I think about it the more I am with @libertyyne that this is overblown.
At the same time we obviously need to have more residency slots

Not really. Most of us are against residency expansion.


The match should just.... work.

It does work. The match rate was 91% for DO's this year and 94% for MD's....

Now, I know I'm not a doctor or in medical school yet.

We know. Someday you'll see just how different the process for applying to residency is from applying to medical school and why a low application cutoff would do a lot more harm than you are suggesting it would.
 
They should make the match like Bumble where every residency has automatic access to our application and are the first to contact us with an interview, instead of having us pay for a certain # of apps and do a song and dance to get ourselves noticed. Maybe have a limit on the number of interviews that each applicant is able to accept. That way applicants can save money and be on a more equal footing.

The way it works now is more like Tinder where the Top 10% of applicants get all the interviews regardless of effort. That type of style doesn’t work well when residencies have majority of the bargaining power in the process.
 
Game theory tends to show that if the same people repeat similar decisions in settings like this, they tend to learn to "cooperate". But in the short term, everyone defects. /MathNerd

Right, and this is not an iterative game because the vast majority of players are playing it once.
 
Overapplication works, it's just a good strategy so you're going to do it because you want to win. Sure it might make it awful for everyone, and you're not happy about it: but it works and that's all that matters.

Maybe.

Let's say everyone applies to 20 programs. Programs would get less overall applications, and have a fixed number of interview slots. Hence, the likelihood of getting an interview would be higher. So perhaps programs would interview half of the people who applied. In that case, applicants would get, on average, 10 interviews.

Now let's say everyone applies to 50 programs. Programs get 2.5 times more applications, yet still have the same number of interview spots. So now, programs will only interview 20% of applicants (50% / 2.5). So now, applicants will get 50 * 20% = 10 interviews. Same ending, but much more money / work (and perhaps less review by programs and more reliance on numbers).

But if we are in the world where everyone applies to 20 programs and gets 10 interviews, and one person sends out 50 apps, then they get 25 interviews and "win".

In this case, it depends upon what you mean by "win". if you measure win by "number of interviews", then your analogy (which I barely understand) is accurate -- overapplication generates interviews. If you consider cost of application, and how well programs are able to review applications, then it's not really a win.

So how does this all tie back to applying to residency? Well they're kind of the same type of interaction if you think about it. There are less ortho slots than applicants so somebody is going to lose out. So if applying to more slots gives you a better chance, applying more than everyone else is the best strategy to ensure you're not going to get shut out regardless of how competitive you are. The less competitive you are, the more over-applying does for you. The more you bottle crow, the more likely you are to win mid. If you're ahead and your opponent wins the lane because they bottle crowed, you lost because you didn't bottle crow. If you got shut out because you didn't send 80 ortho applications this cycle while everyone else did, you got shut out because you didn't send 80 otho applications.

This is exactly the prisoner's dilemma. Translated to your analogy, if no one else bottle crow's, then bottle crowing is a hugely winning strategy. Once everyone is bottle crowing, there's no benefit to anyone and it's just horrible - the game would be better if bottle crowing was removed.

All that said I think the long term solution is to give people options if they don't match into residency. Now, I know I'm not a doctor or in medical school yet. But the idea that a PAs and NPs can go to school for 2 years while and practice in a subordinate role while also having a pathway to independent practice in some states but someone who went to school for 4 years can't do the same is ridiculous and its obvious. Not matching into residency shouldn't be this mark of shame. At the same time we obviously need to have more residency slots but that involves funding them through medicare or some other means and involving a government that is at current, wholly ineffective.

Many people here feel that the process for training NP/PA's is very flawed.

I don't like it because you really shouldn't need to run what is essentially second match. The match should just.... work. Spots are always going to go unmatched. People should be applying to programs they are interested in and are realistic for how competitive they are, period. I think in the first couple of years with an application cap you could potentially have a ton of unmatched slots because everyone is still figuring the match out again. But if its happening too much after like 3-4 years then the application cap just needs to be raised.
Changing the match and having some number of years where zillions of spots are unfilled is a bad idea, and will result in panic on both sides which will drive further bad behavior. An application cap probably isn't legal anyway. An early app system could be added in front (i.e. earlier) to the current timeline, and as long as you don't allow too many of the spots to fill early, it might help some of the over-interview problem. It would only help with overapplication if the results of the early apps was available before the regular app season starts.
 
Maybe.

Let's say everyone applies to 20 programs. Programs would get less overall applications, and have a fixed number of interview slots. Hence, the likelihood of getting an interview would be higher. So perhaps programs would interview half of the people who applied. In that case, applicants would get, on average, 10 interviews.

Now let's say everyone applies to 50 programs. Programs get 2.5 times more applications, yet still have the same number of interview spots. So now, programs will only interview 20% of applicants (50% / 2.5). So now, applicants will get 50 * 20% = 10 interviews. Same ending, but much more money / work (and perhaps less review by programs and more reliance on numbers).

But if we are in the world where everyone applies to 20 programs and gets 10 interviews, and one person sends out 50 apps, then they get 25 interviews and "win".

In this case, it depends upon what you mean by "win". if you measure win by "number of interviews", then your analogy (which I barely understand) is accurate -- overapplication generates interviews. If you consider cost of application, and how well programs are able to review applications, then it's not really a win.



This is exactly the prisoner's dilemma. Translated to your analogy, if no one else bottle crow's, then bottle crowing is a hugely winning strategy. Once everyone is bottle crowing, there's no benefit to anyone and it's just horrible - the game would be better if bottle crowing was removed.



Many people here feel that the process for training NP/PA's is very flawed.


Changing the match and having some number of years where zillions of spots are unfilled is a bad idea, and will result in panic on both sides which will drive further bad behavior. An application cap probably isn't legal anyway. An early app system could be added in front (i.e. earlier) to the current timeline, and as long as you don't allow too many of the spots to fill early, it might help some of the over-interview problem. It would only help with overapplication if the results of the early apps was available before the regular app season starts.
why would number of interviews offered by a program remain constant? Programs would need to conduct fewer interviews to fill, and subsequently would decrease interview spots.
 
why would number of interviews offered by a program remain constant? Programs would need to conduct fewer interviews to fill, and subsequently would decrease interview spots.

It will take several years for programs to learn what that number is exactly.
 
Maybe.

Let's say everyone applies to 20 programs. Programs would get less overall applications, and have a fixed number of interview slots. Hence, the likelihood of getting an interview would be higher. So perhaps programs would interview half of the people who applied. In that case, applicants would get, on average, 10 interviews.

Now let's say everyone applies to 50 programs. Programs get 2.5 times more applications, yet still have the same number of interview spots. So now, programs will only interview 20% of applicants (50% / 2.5). So now, applicants will get 50 * 20% = 10 interviews. Same ending, but much more money / work (and perhaps less review by programs and more reliance on numbers).

Agreed. I think if the average number of applications were halved, nothing would change for someone's odds of matching. But if you send half average number of applications that everyone else is sending(which is still a lot) at current, your odds are probably a lot worse.

My point is that us agreeing to cooperate in the context of the match, doesn't necessarily benefit me to send as many applications as you. Sure a world where I have to one only has to go to 1 interview as opposed to 10 to get the same outcome is better but I care more about matching than making that dream a reality. A win in this context has to mean I match some program, and losing means not matching. Let's just assume that X rating means Y percent to match. So if we're both rated the same, and we both agree to send a set number of applications we'd have the same chance to match. But if I send more applications than you, my chance to match improves relative to yours therefore I win. It's by far the easiest way to gain an advantage and improve my chance to match. Obviously if you send the same number as me we'll both have the same chance to match again sending 40 instead of 20.

This the key interaction at play, and why I'd argue the prisoners dilemma doesn't really apply here. In the prisoners dilemma there's an obvious good outcome for both players, they just have to cooperate. In this case you have every reason to defect, no harm to either player if they both defect and incur risk by not defecting.. I suppose the technical term for this sort of thing is the diner's dilemma but even that doesn't really capture the whole problem. The general creep in average number of applications is a direct result of this interaction. To fix the problem, we have to not allow people to send more applications than everyone else or make it harder to do otherwise it's going to keep getting worse.

In this case, it depends upon what you mean by "win". if you measure win by "number of interviews", then your analogy (which I barely understand) is accurate -- overapplication generates interviews. If you consider cost of application, and how well programs are able to review applications, then it's not really a win.

This is exactly the prisoner's dilemma. Translated to your analogy, if no one else bottle crow's, then bottle crowing is a hugely winning strategy. Once everyone is bottle crowing, there's no benefit to anyone and it's just horrible - the game would be better if bottle crowing was removed.

You got my analogy perfectly. Bottle crowing was a hugely winning strategy if the other guy didn't do it, it became a gameplay non-decision past a certain point. That's why it was nerfed to the point of being useless and was ultimately removed. If neither player did it, neither player would have to do it. But if one player does it, the other player has to be far ahead where it doesn't matter or they have to do it too or they will risk losing. When you take take that interaction away, both players have to compete and win or lose. You're just getting down to business faster and removing a lot of nonsense.

Much the same with residency applications, if applying more than everyone else increases my chances I will do it. So we have to limit people somehow. You can't expect people to stop by saying 'hey don't abuse this'. If there is some interaction that I know about that will give me an edge: I will abuse it to the most heinous degree beyond what you ever thought is possible while being totally shameless about it. You're not changing the match or making it "unfair", you're just taking away all of the dumb stuff by not allowing me to do send more applications than everyone else. This problem exists in applying to med school too, you think I want to spend five gazillion hours filling out 50 secondaries? No, but I will because playing the odds in as many places as I can is the best way forward and I know that. Until there's a limit I'm going to apply to as many schools as I can that I think I have a non-zero chance at getting accepted to and Penn for the memes.

If everyone trying to apply to more places than everyone else is all the time, it just makes everything stupid. Some people aren't going to understand or like it; but that's ultimately what needs done. The arms race is always going to be a problem in the fields like ortho and derm, but we can rein things in while making them feel reasonable and fair.

The last point I would make is that the match isn't going to please everyone no matter what rules are put into place. But the match should serve the goals of most students and programs, and just listening to both groups: neither group is particularly happy right now. You probably aren't happy about having to go through 1500 applications, most from people who aren't that interested in your program, when you should only have to go through 300. I wouldn't want to have to have to pick 60 programs to apply to. Students are spending thousands of dollars on application fees they don't need to ($40 for one application is a joke on its own), and going to more interviews than they have to. It really comes down to if program directors and students are happy with the current state of the match or not. But we can't sit around and say "surely the AAMC's Apply Smart campaign will deliver": not going to happen.
 
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This the key interaction at play, and why I'd argue the prisoners dilemma doesn't really apply here. In the prisoners dilemma there's an obvious good outcome for both players, they just have to cooperate. In this case you have every reason to defect, no harm to either player if they both defect and incur risk by not defecting.. I suppose the technical term for this sort of thing is the diner's dilemma but even that doesn't really capture the whole problem. The general creep in average number of applications is a direct result of this interaction. To fix the problem, we have to not allow people to send more applications than everyone else or make it harder to do otherwise it's going to keep getting worse.

To clarify, there is harm for both players defecting in DD. If they both defect, they end up spending more money than they otherwise would have. In the residency application game, if people only applied to a reasonable number of programs, everyone would have their applications reviewed more h o l i s t i c a l l y and would save money. By defecting, not only are you spending more, but you're getting a crappier review of your app. So while you are gaining an advantage if the other person doesn't defect, if everyone defects, everyone gets a smaller pay off.
 
But the match should serve the goals of most students and programs,

It already does this.... also the match is literally designed to favor the student.
I wouldn't want to have to have to pick 60 programs to apply to.

This isn't med school apps, it's not hard at all finding 60 programs you want to apply to. It would actually be a lot harder to whittle my list down to 20 than it would be to find 60 programs I'm genuinely interested in.
 
A win in this context has to mean I match some program, and losing means not matching.

If you measure a win only by matching, then I agree with you. There's no downside to "defecting" (i.e. applying to more programs).

But:
To clarify, there is harm for both players defecting in DD. If they both defect, they end up spending more money than they otherwise would have. In the residency application game, if people only applied to a reasonable number of programs, everyone would have their applications reviewed more h o l i s t i c a l l y and would save money. By defecting, not only are you spending more, but you're getting a crappier review of your app. So while you are gaining an advantage if the other person doesn't defect, if everyone defects, everyone gets a smaller pay off.

If you consider the financial and other costs of overapplying, then defecting has a downside. True, it;s more complicated than the classic prisoner's dilemma, because some of those costs are indirect / paid by other people (i.e. programs being overwhelmed with applications)
 
If you consider the financial and other costs of overapplying, then defecting has a downside. True, it;s more complicated than the classic prisoner's dilemma, because some of those costs are indirect / paid by other people (i.e. programs being overwhelmed with applications)

Yes, the system actually has the potential to be a coupling, non-linear good style game. But the players have to either be shown that it can be reformulated like that, or alternatively, you can force it through limiting applications.
 
I have to say that with the increased competition the AAMC is racking it in on application fees. I think they should divert some of those funds to creating spots.
 
On some level I've heard discussions of a "pre-match" process where students would get the opportunity to apply to a very small number of programs they're particularly interested in before the regular match, those programs would have few enough applications that they could actually review them, and they would be able to fill a small amount of their spots through that process. Then everyone who doesn't get an offer would go through the regular match as usual. I think this could be a good idea that solves some of the problems associated with the current match, namely the insane amount of applications that people are forced to send just to stay viable. Of course, it also introduces new problems - "why weren't we one of your pre-match programs?" becomes a question that applicants have to be able to deflect, for one. I also would support a cap of ERAS applications, but it would have to be something reasonable that still gives people flexibility. Maybe like 50? As of right now it's heading fast to an unsustainable level and I think this is why Step 1 became the most important part of the application even though it doesn't really have any use beyond serving as an arbitrary cutoff. They made it Pass/Fail without addressing why the Step 1 absurdity reached the level that it did.
 
I have to say that with the increased competition the AAMC is racking it in on application fees. I think they should divert some of those funds to creating spots.

well if they increase spots then our salaries will plummet and competition to enter the field of medicine will decrease. I guess you are on to something. Not a smart idea, but something at least.
 
Honestly the simple answer to this mess is to slow down med school expansion. The match was more or less awesome for applicants before the applicant/residency ratio got out of hand. Contrary to popular belief, residency positions are growing and expanding. If you expand residency spots too much, you run the risk of saturating the job markets. If we slowed down/halted med school expansion for a decade, we would probably eliminate most of the driving force behind this arms race. I know people will bring up shortages in response, which I think is a mild shortage problem and a major maldistribution problem. Offer stronger incentives for people to go into underserved areas/specialties, to fix the maldistribution problem. If you still cant get US residency trained doctors to fill the need, allow foreign doctors with a certain amount of clinical experience in their home countries the ability to fast-track to licensure/practice in those specific locations/specialties. At least that is what I would do if I was king. I see the exact opposite of all of that happening.
 
well if they increase spots then our salaries will plummet and competition to enter the field of medicine will decrease. I guess you are on to something. Not a smart idea, but something at least.

You would think so, but as a person with an MBA in healthcare administration (and an MD) I can tell you that medicine is weird. Its one of the few fields that sees a cost increase when there are more facilities and practitioners and is not impacted as much by competition as it should be from a strict business standpoint. I suspect this is due to market interference by insurance companies and regulatory agencies.
 
Residencies are funded, substantially, by Medicare/Medicaid. Those programs are paying for your post graduate education and as such, they require a return on their investment in the form of filled residency seats with freshly minted prescribing bodies come July 1st. The match was established to fill seats, period. They do their best to make everyone at least complacent, if not content, in the match. Applying to residency like medical school has been shown to leave more seats unfilled come July 1st. the match is clean and efficient at its task, at the cost of being ruthless. =)
 
You would think so, but as a person with an MBA in healthcare administration (and an MD) I can tell you that medicine is weird. Its one of the few fields that sees a cost increase when there are more facilities and practitioners and is not impacted as much by competition as it should be from a strict business standpoint. I suspect this is due to market interference by insurance companies and regulatory agencies.
Supply driven demand is not the same thing as supply demand relationship between physician compensation.
Supply and demand relationship between Physician compensation is very clearly illustrated when you look at areas that are saturated with physicians and what compensation looks like compared to non saturated areas.
 
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