Why don't medical schools release names and waitlist positions?

[MagentaKarma]

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It's not like applicants are paying the schools money to reserve their spots on the waiting list. It would be more beneficial for everyone if we all knew where we stood and could plan accordingly based on our positions. For all we know, (slight exaggeration), someone could possibly rub shoulders/pull some strings with admissions committees and get admitted even if they stand lower than other students on a ranked waiting list. I think transparency would benefit everyone. I also hear so many stories of people who moved to attend school in one state and then got off of a waiting list for a more preferred school and then had to move back after orientation week. I think if they knew where they stood beforehand, they might have been able to plan better. I definitely don't understand particularly regarding ranked lists. As someone who has attended school in a foreign country where exam scores, rankings for board exams, and rankings for undergraduate college applicants are posted publicly, both online and on lists outside the schools, I don't understand why this information is kept private. I would like to know where I stand among others. I feel that it is just another way to see how I can improve my application and how I can plan for my future if my chances are smaller post-interview at a particular school.

 

[Optimist Prime]

This topic could make for a good conversation but this is the wrong thread for it.

 

[Goro]

LizzyM has discussed this at length in multiple threads.

TL: DR version: schools can't tell you because they have no idea how the wait lists will move from year to year.

It's not like applicants are paying the schools money to reserve their spots on the waiting list. It would be more beneficial for everyone if we all knew where we stood and could plan accordingly based on our positions. For all we know, (slight exaggeration), someone could possibly rub shoulders/pull some strings with admissions committees and get admitted even if they stand lower than other students on a ranked waiting list. I think transparency would benefit everyone. I also hear so many stories of people who moved to attend school in one state and then got off of a waiting list for a more preferred school and then had to move back after orientation week. I think if they knew where they stood beforehand, they might have been able to plan better. I definitely don't understand particularly regarding ranked lists. As someone who has attended school in a foreign country where exam scores, rankings for board exams, and rankings for undergraduate college applicants are posted publicly, both online and on lists outside the schools, I don't understand why this information is kept private. I would like to know where I stand among others. I feel that it is just another way to see how I can improve my application and how I can plan for my future if my chances are smaller post-interview at a particular school.

 

[gyngyn]

Very few waitlists are linear (even if ranked).
They are often used to re-balance a class based upon withdrawals (this is not predictable).

 

[gyngyn]

II also hear so many stories of people who moved to attend school in one state and then got off of a waiting list for a more preferred school and then had to move back after orientation week. I think if they knew where they stood beforehand, they might have been able to plan better. I definitely don't understand particularly regarding ranked lists. As someone who has attended school in a foreign country where exam scores, rankings for board exams, and rankings for undergraduate college applicants are posted publicly, both online and on lists outside the schools, I don't understand why this information is kept private. I would like to know where I stand among others. I feel that it is just another way to see how I can improve my application and how I can plan for my future if my chances are smaller post-interview at a particular school.

This is a better argument for an earlier traffic day.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Moving to preallo

 

[CanDoIt66]

Making it public is analogus to finding out how the meat gets made.

I think it should be public information at public schools, as state trained students are stewards of the states

 

[gyngyn]

I think it should be public information at public schools, as state trained students are stewards of the states

Even state schools have a commitment to fulfill the goals of the university.
Waitlists are not static. They change every day.

 

[WedgeDawg]

I think it should be public information at public schools, as state trained students are stewards of the states

1. No, state-trained students are not necessarily stewards of the states
2. Even if they were, how does this make it necessary for waitlist information to be made public?

 

[Lucca]

No. The information would not tell you anything. It wouldn't tell you if you have a chance of getting in off the wait list or not. It would be a data point to fixate on that would mean nothing, a red herring.

 

[Reckoner]

I would be afraid of seeing wait lists turn into hit lists

 

[NotAnotherPreMed]

I would be afraid of seeing wait lists turn into hit lists

Brings new meaning to the term 'gunner'.

 

[MagentaKarma]

No. The information would not tell you anything. It wouldn't tell you if you have a chance of getting in off the wait list or not. It would be a data point to fixate on that would mean nothing, a red herring.

I think if you knew that you were within top 10 or bottom 10 out of a list of 60 at your top choice, you could mentally prepare. I guess I don't understand why everyone's interview, MCAT, extracurriculars can't be given some physical value or number and that can be used to rank your waitlist position. I get it that schools need certain percentatge of women, African American, Hispanic but using that list, you can still give preference to a minority member if say a Caucasian male and a Hispanic female have the same score on the list.

 

[MagentaKarma]

Or perhaps you could incorporate that minority status into the physical score that you give a student without so it and then rank the students. People with the highest scores first. Perhaps give African Americans and Hispanics "five points" extra to the total score.

 

[gyngyn]

I think if you knew that you were within top 10 or bottom 10 out of a list of 60 at your top choice, you could mentally prepare. I guess I don't understand why everyone's interview, MCAT, extracurriculars can't be given some physical value or number and that can be used to rank your waitlist position. I get it that schools need certain percentatge of women, African American, Hispanic but using that list, you can still give preference to a minority member if say a Caucasian male and a Hispanic female have the same score on the list.

Or perhaps you could incorporate that minority status into the physical score that you give a student without so it and then rank the students. People with the highest scores first. Perhaps give African Americans and Hispanics "five points" extra to the total score.

Nope.
What the school needs has as much to do with what is left in the class as what remains on the waitlist. Both of them change every day after traffic day. This is a fluid, not static process .

 

[Glandzburg]

OP, you seem to have a vastly oversimplified understanding of how these waitlists work...

 

[jqueb29]

Making it public is analogus to finding out how the meat gets made.

I think it should be public information at public schools, as state trained students are stewards of the states

Absolutely not. When I was on a wait list, i would have been pissed if literally everybody on earth had access to that information. It's nobody's business other than yours and the school's.

 

[WGSgrad]

Seems like it might be a FERPA violation...

 

[Squamous Eddie]

Some schools like UCF tell you what third of the waitlist you're in every month or so, and let you know on interview day your chances of getting in based roughly on what bracket you're in. The top half historically is accepted, for instance, while people in the bottom half might not hear until July, if at all. It takes more effort, definitely. But I hugely appreciated their effort, as it lets me know ahead of time whether I should or should not wait on UCF for an acceptance, or whether to look for housing options.

Certainly around May, I think schools should start telling students at least relatively where they are on the waitlist, and let students know what happens historically to students in that bracket of the waitlist. Miami does this as well, I believe. Around those months, they'll let you know whether to hold off on signing a lease elsewhere, or whether it might be prudent to not wait on them.

Any earlier than that, I agree, it's not going to do you much good, anyway.

 

[Flashfan]

I think it should be public information at public schools, as state trained students are stewards of the states

Until states adequately fund the state medical schools, this is simply an exaggeration. The only state that comes close would be Texas and their application process is very transparent from what I can tell.

 

[Lucca]

Brings new meaning to the term 'gunner'.

Only in America

 

[JustAPhD]

I would be afraid of seeing wait lists turn into hit lists

*Premeds PM @NotASerialKiller *
"Hey man, can you help me out?? I just need 4 names to disappear!"

 

[Lucca]

How about this: every applicant in the country is ranked from 1 to 45,000. Every name is public. Ultimate transparency!

I'm all for more transparency in admissions but the information given us to actually serve a purpose. For example, policies like silent rejections, releasing all acceptances/rejects on the same day, not disclosing what stage of app review you are at are convenient for the school but would preferably not exist in the name of transparency and expediency. The information is actually valuable because it can give you something actionable to do: move on, call and ask for feedback, start gap year plans, know that your app has been deferred for review but your chances are not done yet even though rejections just came out, etc. What will the wait list number tell you? It will give you a non-ordered number that may or may not mean that you have a real chance of getting in if any number of people do not matriculate. You can be number 1 and not get off, you could be number 5,000 and be pulled in first off the wait list.

 

[Med Ed]

It's not like applicants are paying the schools money to reserve their spots on the waiting list. It would be more beneficial for everyone if we all knew where we stood and could plan accordingly based on our positions. For all we know, (slight exaggeration), someone could possibly rub shoulders/pull some strings with admissions committees and get admitted even if they stand lower than other students on a ranked waiting list. I think transparency would benefit everyone. I also hear so many stories of people who moved to attend school in one state and then got off of a waiting list for a more preferred school and then had to move back after orientation week. I think if they knew where they stood beforehand, they might have been able to plan better. I definitely don't understand particularly regarding ranked lists. As someone who has attended school in a foreign country where exam scores, rankings for board exams, and rankings for undergraduate college applicants are posted publicly, both online and on lists outside the schools, I don't understand why this information is kept private. I would like to know where I stand among others. I feel that it is just another way to see how I can improve my application and how I can plan for my future if my chances are smaller post-interview at a particular school.

Imagine 20,000 Abigail Fishers every year...

 

[NotAnotherPreMed]

Realistically obviously they wouldn't release every name. Just like your position number on the list. Kinda like waitlists to register for classes. I agree with comments from more experienced people here about how it's not linear and med schools need to balance classes out etc. In that case even a system involving different bins would do. Many medical schools have that already but many more don't, or at least don't release that kind of data to the students on the list. Maybe that can be changed?

 

[Snakes]

University of Central Florida has a fairly transparent wait list. You do not know your exact placement on the list but they do tell you generally where you fall, divided into thirds. I copied and pasted the following from the UCF school-specific thread, and it comes from their administration. You can also get updated on your placement (whether you've moved up or down the list) pretty much at any time during the process. So you know if you're in the bottom third you should make other plans. @REL, their adcom rep, posts in that forum all of the time giving students other information about the admissions process. It is, by far, the most transparent admissions process that I have seen thus far.

Since I brought up the wait list, and since this info will be posted on this thread soon enough...

UCF uses a single list throughout the interview season. Everyone goes on this grand list after his/her interview. Every couple of weeks or so the admissions committee will accept the top X number of candidates and offer them admission (something on the order of 10 candidates every 2 weeks. If you get placed very high on this list, you can be accepted during the round of admissions directly after your interview but before updates are sent out about your interview day results. If so, it will appear to you that you were accepted without being wait listed when you eventually do receive the first update call from REL, even though you technically did reside on that list for a moment. If you're not accepted, you are given an approximation (but never an exact rank) of your position on the list. This position will change as more interviewed candidates join this list, and your rank will shift up or down as they keep slotting candidates into the list. Once interview season ends and no one else is added to the list, UCF has recruited a full class of 120 and this grand list becomes a true wait list. As attrition of the accepted class occurs, they go down the wait list to keep the class full.

In the past it has been assumed that if you achieve and remain in the top half of the grand list throughout the interview season, you will eventually gain admission either during the interview season of over the summer. If you end the interview season and are on the bottom half of the true wait list, you likely won't get accepted. These generalizations are especially true for the top and bottom thirds of the wait list, respectively. The middle third is the land of possibilities surrounded by the uncertainly of the unknown. These are all generalizations. There are never guarantees. This is an anecdotal account of UCF COM admissions cycles past, not an except of gospel. However, you should get comfortable with the concept of halves of thirds (in essence, sixths) if you plan to follow this thread.

Upper 1/3 (subdivided into upper and lower halves)

Middle 1/3 (subdivided into upper and lower halves)

Lower 1/3 (subdivided into upper and lower halves)

 

[LizzyM]

This is assuming a ranked wait list. I don't know what proportion of schools have a ranked wait list vs tiers or some other thing.
Some schools will use the wait list to balance an class -- geographic, gender, alma mater, etc.
Also keep in mind that when a school makes >1 offer for each seat that dozens or even hundreds of admitted applicants have to withdraw their applications before even one candidate can be drawn from the waitlist. Furthermore, the waitlist can shrink as people who have a straight out offer from a school they like better say, "bye-bye" to their place on a school's wait list.

 

[RichGang]

Some schools like UCF tell you what third of the waitlist you're in every month or so, and let you know on interview day your chances of getting in based roughly on what bracket you're in. The top half historically is accepted, for instance, while people in the bottom half might not hear until July, if at all. It takes more effort, definitely. But I hugely appreciated their effort, as it lets me know ahead of time whether I should or should not wait on UCF for an acceptance, or whether to look for housing options.

Certainly around May, I think schools should start telling students at least relatively where they are on the waitlist, and let students know what happens historically to students in that bracket of the waitlist. Miami does this as well, I believe. Around those months, they'll let you know whether to hold off on signing a lease elsewhere, or whether it might be prudent to not wait on them.

Any earlier than that, I agree, it's not going to do you much good, anyway.

University of Central Florida has a fairly transparent wait list. You do not know your exact placement on the list but they do tell you generally where you fall, divided into thirds. I copied and pasted the following from the UCF school-specific thread, and it comes from their administration. You can also get updated on your placement (whether you've moved up or down the list) pretty much at any time during the process. So you know if you're in the bottom third you should make other plans. their adcom rep, posts in that forum all of the time giving students other information about the admissions process. It is, by far, the most transparent admissions process that I have seen thus far.

UCF is anything but transparent. They bumbled the waitlist super hard last year, and majorly overprojected, and wouldn't own to their mistake (they never acknowledged it), so a bundle of students were left wondering if they would be suddenly signing leases and were dropped at a moment's notice. In their email predictions, they also don't divide the chances of getting accepted off the IS and OOS waitlists for people, despite the fact that people are pulled based off of their IS or OOS status (meaning the waitlist is divided into OOS and IS groups). This means that the chances people were given were totally misleading and inaccurate. I'd rather have no transparency than BS like that for the sake of yield protection.

 

[prehealthadvisor55]

UCF is anything but transparent. They bumbled the waitlist super hard last year, and majorly overprojected, and wouldn't own to their mistake (they never acknowledged it), so a bundle of students were left wondering if they would be suddenly signing leases and were dropped at a moment's notice. In their email predictions, they also don't divide the chances of getting accepted off the IS and OOS waitlists for people, despite the fact that people are pulled based off of their IS or OOS status (meaning the waitlist is divided into OOS and IS groups). This means that the chances people were given were totally misleading and inaccurate. I'd rather have no transparency than BS like that for the sake of yield protection.

And this is exactly why 99% don't give any projections.

 

[RichGang]

And this is exactly why 99% don't give any projections.

they shouldn't then. Also if 99% of med schools can't figure out how to divide a god damn list into IS and OOS, they have no place being in admissions though honestly.

 

[Glandzburg]

I think numbered lists are a bad idea, especially because they are more easily misinterpreted by applicants (e.g., those that are ranked very highly at a school whose waitlist typically shows very little or no movement). A tier system, however, is probably a better way to give applicants a general idea of where they stand without as much opportunity to be misinterpreted. People will probably misinterpret it anyway, but it seems like a reasonable middle ground.

 

[LizzyM]

Some public schools do a few budget projections and suddenly find that OOS students are much more attractive. 😉

 

[gyngyn]

Some public schools do a few budget projections and suddenly find that OOS students are much more attractive. 😉

I can name some!
Edit: on second thought, I'd better not...

 

[CanDoIt66]

Even though that is all fair and game...doesnt that seem a bit disingenious slash a bit of a unspoken application "bump" --- basically you can pay more more so it trumps another qualified instate students?

 

[gyngyn]

Even though that is all fair and game...doesnt that seem a bit disingenious slash a bit of a unspoken application "bump" --- basically you can pay more more so it trumps another qualified instate students?

If a state can bring in "better" candidates from elsewhere, the people of the state will still prosper when they stay.
Is the higher responsibility to the patients of the state or the applicants of the state? The answer will vary on the likelihood that the student will stay to serve. In some states, the likelihood is very high indeed.

 

[Lucca]

If a state can bring in "better" candidates from elsewhere, the people of the state will still prosper when they stay.
Is the higher responsibility to the patients of the state or the applicants of the state? The answer will vary on the likelihood that the student will stay to serve. In some states, the likelihood is very high indeed.

California might be such a state (everyone wants to either go or stay) but they have such a massive pool of qualified applicants they could ship 90% of them in crates for the Northeast to use as fuel to warm themselves during the snowstorm and they would still be the most competitive state in the union for medicine.

 

[gyngyn]

California might be such a state (everyone wants to either go or stay) but they have such a massive pool of qualified applicants they could ship 90% of them in crates for the Northeast to use as fuel to warm themselves during the snowstorm and they would still be the most competitive state in the union for medicine.

You bet.

 

[MagentaKarma]

I like the idea of ranking students in America. A lot of countries do that when people are applying to colleges as an undergrad and that determines what schools you go to. For instance your engineering grades in different sub-sections of a pre-engineering examination determines what type of engineering you get into. Then you are ranked and the best schools pick the top students and so on. I understand that the waiting list changes and the US emphasizes importance on interviews and ensuring a diverse class but I think if you honestly wanted to, you could quantify that by giving minorities say ten extra points for that status and then an additional twenty points for being in-state. I'm not understanding why it isn't more clear for the sake of the applicants. (But I also didn't understand why as an undergrad, grades were posted with ID numbers and not names. As someone who started school overseas, we were given class ranks from kindergarten and they were announced on "results day" at the end of the year)

 

[MagentaKarma]

This is assuming a ranked wait list. I don't know what proportion of schools have a ranked wait list vs tiers or some other thing.
Some schools will use the wait list to balance an class -- geographic, gender, alma mater, etc.
Also keep in mind that when a school makes >1 offer for each seat that dozens or even hundreds of admitted applicants have to withdraw their applications before even one candidate can be drawn from the waitlist. Furthermore, the waitlist can shrink as people who have a straight out offer from a school they like better say, "bye-bye" to their place on a school's wait list.

That still doesn't explain why schools that do rank their waiting lists can't quantify "gender, alma mater, race" and rank students on that.

 

[Stanfordgrad]

California might be such a state (everyone wants to either go or stay) but they have such a massive pool of qualified applicants they could ship 90% of them in crates for the Northeast to use as fuel to warm themselves during the snowstorm and they would still be the most competitive state in the union for medicine.

This is def true!

 

[URHere]

Back when I applied, my current school gave each applicant their waitlist number and had an updated "ticker" on their website showing how far down the waitlist the school had moved at any given time.

This was great until the year when the school suddenly only took 20-30 applicants off the waitlist as opposed to the usual 80. We also got a lot of flack from the ACGME about "lack of diversity" within the medical school classes, so I'm not even sure if this system is being used anymore, or if we are now considering race/gender/etc before taking anyone off of the rank list.

 

[wagonwheel23]

Ahh I dream of a ranked waitlist. My current west coast waitlist and east coast acceptance are really causing me to scratch my head on the question of "what the hell should I do with my stuff when my lease is up?!?".

 

[LizzyM]

That still doesn't explain why schools that do rank their waiting lists can't quantify "gender, alma mater, race" and rank students on that.

Because you don't know until the accepted and rejected offer information comes in what you will need to balance the class. Does it matter if you are the #1 white male from our flagship state school if 40% of the class is already fitting that description?

This is like being the second string on a team. You don't know if the coach will call on you. There is little to predict whether the need to call on you will arise. If you have an opportunity to play for a team where you are in the starting line-up, then go for it.

 

[Toutie]

I'm kinda looking forward to moving 4 years ahead and see what this person's opinion is with regards to the residency application process. 😱 If in fact this person makes it that far.

 

[Womb Raider]

I'm not understanding why it isn't more clear for the sake of the applicants. (But I also didn't understand why as an undergrad, grades were posted with ID numbers and not names. As someone who started school overseas, we were given class ranks from kindergarten and they were announced on "results day" at the end of the year)

That still doesn't explain why schools that do rank their waiting lists can't quantify "gender, alma mater, race" and rank students on that.

I'm not sure how many ways the Ad Coms here can explain this for you...

Let's imagine you ranked everyone according to your plan and gave values for race, gender, residency, etc... Let's say a Black in-state female was at the top of the waitlist.

However, let's say that the school (this specific year) had a huge influx of females as well as a large number of Blacks (this happens completely by chance). Now, since higher education in our country can legally use quotas in admissions, they no longer "need" any more Blacks or any more females, so the Black girl at the top of the wait list will obviously not be accepted. Does this make sense?

If we outlawed gender/racial discrimination your system becomes exponentially more plausible.

 

[Med Ed]

I'm not sure how many ways the Ad Coms here can explain this for you...

Let's imagine you ranked everyone according to your plan and gave values for race, gender, residency, etc... Let's say a Black in-state female was at the top of the waitlist.

However, let's say that the school (this specific year) had a huge influx of females as well as a large number of Blacks (this happens completely by chance). Now, since higher education in our country can legally use quotas in admissions, they no longer "need" any more Blacks or any more females, so the Black girl at the top of the wait list will obviously not be accepted. Does this make sense?

If we outlawed gender/racial discrimination your system becomes exponentially more plausible.

A more realistic (and slightly less inflammatory) example: on May 1, 2016, an unnamed medical school sees that its class composition stands at 60:40 M:F. Not desiring a total sausage fest for the class of 2020, the school turns to its ranked waitlist with the intention of accepting 10 more applicants.

Of the first 20 people on the list, 10 are women, and the score differential between all 20 is negligible. The school therefore accepts those 10 women, thus pushing its class gender ratio closer to 50:50, and revisits the issue once the dust has further settled.