Why I'm likely to take an engineering job and giving up on my medical dreams..

[tluedeke]

I've been at this for four years. Was wait-listed and have been preparing for another application cycle, but am 49 years old and probably going to take an offered job and return to engineering. Here's my (cynical) thoughts on my experiences as an older non-trad over the last four years:

• Even though you know you would literally kill yourself to succeed and make enormous sacrifices, that probably doesn't matter to the medical school gatekeepers sitting on their thrones.
  
• The medical school rhetoric on the value of older candidates is just that, especially for MD schools. (DO schools are much less sclerotic). Many (if not most) MD schools are not interested in older candidates. The exceptions deserve exceptional credit.
  
• It doesn't matter how mature you are or how deeply the convictions are that drove you to want to change careers, a naive, giggly 20-year old fiddling with a cell phone all day long will receive admissions precedence over you.
• Age discrimination is technically illegal, but medical schools rarely feel the need to even pretend that it is a keystone of their admissions process.
• Medical schools deserve a lot of the blame for the primary care crisis (especially in rural areas). When they wring their hands about it, don't expect them to actually change their ways regarding older candidates who actually desire to fill that role. They will engage in selection bias that exacerbates the crisis.
  
• Any mistakes you made in the past *will* be held against you. If you got a 'C' grade 20 years ago, you're going to pay if you apply to medical school, even if your grades have been perfect ever since.
• The best way to get into medical school is to have doctors as parents (or at least neighbors/friends). It hugely greases the skids in getting the "gold star" experiences on the medical school checklists (e.g. shadowing, clinical experience). If you don't have those contacts, it's a big hit against you.
  
• If you juggle a full-time job and family responsibilities as well as studying, you won't get any consideration when test scores are evaluated. If you get a 510 or something on the MCAT, a kid who was able to study all day long, every day, for 10 months straight on their parent's dole and who gets a 512 will beat you out.
• Most physicians don't really care very much about aspiring physicians, despite all the help they no doubt received when aspiring to medical school. If you call around asking for professional advice or soliciting shadowing opportunities, 98 out of 100 won't return your call. The other two, however, are a wondrous credit to their profession.

Believe me, I take zero pleasure in feeling/thinking these things, and if I decide to take the engineering job and give up on medicine, the decision will haunt me for the rest of my life. But I believe that it doesn't matter what I do, how good my grades are, how high my test scores are, or how many certifications I get.

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[deleted480308]

Dude/ma’am....I’m also old for school. If your stats are right and evetything else is in place you get in. Your age doesn’t stop that and itms unhealthy to do anything other than accept you gave it a shot and came up short

If you are going in another direction, embrace it and don’t look back. Wish you well

 

[arcus]

I've been at this for four years. Was wait-listed and have been preparing for another application cycle, but am 49 years old and probably going to take an offered job and return to engineering. Here's my (cynical) thoughts on my experiences as an older non-trad over the last four years:

• Even though you know you would literally kill yourself to succeed and make enormous sacrifices, that probably doesn't matter to the medical school gatekeepers sitting on their thrones.
  
• The medical school rhetoric on the value of older candidates is just that, especially for MD schools. (DO schools are much less sclerotic). Many (if not most) MD schools are not interested in older candidates. The exceptions deserve exceptional credit.
  
• It doesn't matter how mature you are or how deeply the convictions are that drove you to want to change careers, a naive, giggly 20-year old fiddling with a cell phone all day long will receive admissions precedence over you.
• Age discrimination is technically illegal, but medical schools rarely feel the need to even pretend that it is a keystone of their admissions process.
• Medical schools deserve a lot of the blame for the primary care crisis (especially in rural areas). When they wring their hands about it, don't expect them to actually change their ways regarding older candidates who actually desire to fill that role. They will engage in selection bias that exacerbates the crisis.
  
• Any mistakes you made in the past *will* be held against you. If you got a 'C' grade 20 years ago, you're going to pay if you apply to medical school, even if your grades have been perfect ever since.
• The best way to get into medical school is to have doctors as parents (or at least neighbors/friends). It hugely greases the skids in getting the "gold star" experiences on the medical school checklists (e.g. shadowing, clinical experience). If you don't have those contacts, it's a big hit against you.
  
• If you juggle a full-time job and family responsibilities as well as studying, you won't get any consideration when test scores are evaluated. If you get a 510 or something on the MCAT, a kid who was able to study all day long, every day, for 10 months straight on their parent's dole and who gets a 512 will beat you out.
• Most physicians don't really care very much about aspiring physicians, despite all the help they no doubt received when aspiring to medical school. If you call around asking for professional advice or soliciting shadowing opportunities, 98 out of 100 won't return your call. The other two, however, are a wondrous credit to their profession.

Believe me, I take zero pleasure in feeling/thinking these things, and if I decide to take the engineering job and give up on medicine, the decision will haunt me for the rest of my life. But I believe that it doesn't matter what I do, how good my grades are, how high my test scores are, or how many certifications I get.

54-year-old medical student at Wake Forest School of Medicine is living her dream

This could be you.

Just find one medical school no matter their “tier” level or location.

Put aside the cynicism and hurt and focus on your possibilities. Obstacles are what you see when you take your eyes off of the prize. You are way too young to be this bitter.

Gopher it.

Best wishes

 

[LibBum]

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” ― Theodore Roosevelt

You can overcome each shortcoming - it just takes time. I'm a non-trad student, went back to school at 25 and started medical school at 31.

 

[SpoiledMilk]

Don't give up if this is your dream! Be RIGHT!!!

Read this: Renee Ridley

 

[Lucky Day]

I've been at this for four years. Was wait-listed and have been preparing for another application cycle, but am 49 years old and probably going to take an offered job and return to engineering. Here's my (cynical) thoughts on my experiences as an older non-trad over the last four years:

• Even though you know you would literally kill yourself to succeed and make enormous sacrifices, that probably doesn't matter to the medical school gatekeepers sitting on their thrones.
  
• The medical school rhetoric on the value of older candidates is just that, especially for MD schools. (DO schools are much less sclerotic). Many (if not most) MD schools are not interested in older candidates. The exceptions deserve exceptional credit.
  
• It doesn't matter how mature you are or how deeply the convictions are that drove you to want to change careers, a naive, giggly 20-year old fiddling with a cell phone all day long will receive admissions precedence over you.
• Age discrimination is technically illegal, but medical schools rarely feel the need to even pretend that it is a keystone of their admissions process.
• Medical schools deserve a lot of the blame for the primary care crisis (especially in rural areas). When they wring their hands about it, don't expect them to actually change their ways regarding older candidates who actually desire to fill that role. They will engage in selection bias that exacerbates the crisis.
  
• Any mistakes you made in the past *will* be held against you. If you got a 'C' grade 20 years ago, you're going to pay if you apply to medical school, even if your grades have been perfect ever since.
• The best way to get into medical school is to have doctors as parents (or at least neighbors/friends). It hugely greases the skids in getting the "gold star" experiences on the medical school checklists (e.g. shadowing, clinical experience). If you don't have those contacts, it's a big hit against you.
  
• If you juggle a full-time job and family responsibilities as well as studying, you won't get any consideration when test scores are evaluated. If you get a 510 or something on the MCAT, a kid who was able to study all day long, every day, for 10 months straight on their parent's dole and who gets a 512 will beat you out.
• Most physicians don't really care very much about aspiring physicians, despite all the help they no doubt received when aspiring to medical school. If you call around asking for professional advice or soliciting shadowing opportunities, 98 out of 100 won't return your call. The other two, however, are a wondrous credit to their profession.

Believe me, I take zero pleasure in feeling/thinking these things, and if I decide to take the engineering job and give up on medicine, the decision will haunt me for the rest of my life. But I believe that it doesn't matter what I do, how good my grades are, how high my test scores are, or how many certifications I get.

I don't appreciate your pessimistic worldview, but I understand where you are coming from, appreciate a good venting session and I highly commend you for where you have gotten. A waitlist means that you're on the cusp. Please don't stop!!! I am certain your contributions will be incredibly valuable.

-Fellow not-as-old, but still relatively old-timer

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

There’s some truth here, especially the part about primary care and older candidates. Almost every medical student I’ve ever talked to who has a real interest in practicing rural or small town Primary Care is a nontraditional student.

I agree the socioeconomic bias towards the suburban upper middle class further exacerbates the shortage of primary care providers in many regions of the country.

Grass is always greener though. I have often longed for a return to the predictable monotony of a white collar office job, as it allows more time to pursue hobbies. Best of luck to you.

 

[Medic2MD4me]

If you're still mulling it over read through the nontrad thread where people list their ages. It's several pages long and extremely encouraging.

 

[ACCT2MED]

Whenever I feel discouraged--about any goal I'm pursuing--I like to read this quote by retired Navy SEAL Andy Stumpf:

Everyone wants to be a Frogman on Friday.

One of my favorite quotes from the Teams, because it applies to everyone and every goal.

To use SEAL training as an example, 80-85 percent don't see the third day of hell week, let alone the last day of training. It takes a lot of work to even show up for day one, but it doesn't take much to end it. All you have to do is say "I quit", ring the bell in the picture three times, and it's over. There is paperwork later, but in essence, that is the end.

All SEAL training is really about is pushing people to their lowest point, and watching the decisions they make. When you are at your lowest point, tired, hungry, cold...do you give in and take the easy way out?

During the most difficult portions of training, the instructors bring the bell with them, to make it that much more enticing and easy to quit. It sits right there, in plain sight, always ready for the next taker.

I have noticed that most people focus on the illusion of the shiny object, not the reality of what it takes to achieve it. The amateur can only see the end state. The professional focuses on the fundamentals and incremental progress. If you think the "bell" doesn't exist in your life, your eyes are closed. It is everywhere. The only difference between the BUD/s bell and everywhere else, is that in BUD/s, when you ring it, the outcome is instantaneous.

Laziness, procrastination, selfishness, lack of discipline, you fill in the blank...all small rings of the bell. The bell is everywhere, and it is always calling you. Ring it enough times and you will find yourself looking back filled with regret. Everyone wants to be a Frogman on Friday, but you will never get there if you give in on Tuesday.

I know the sound of the bell haunts many men, don't let the decisions you make when things get difficult end up haunting you.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I've been at this for four years. Was wait-listed and have been preparing for another application cycle, but am 49 years old and probably going to take an offered job and return to engineering. Here's my (cynical) thoughts on my experiences as an older non-trad over the last four years:

• Even though you know you would literally kill yourself to succeed and make enormous sacrifices, that probably doesn't matter to the medical school gatekeepers sitting on their thrones.
  
• The medical school rhetoric on the value of older candidates is just that, especially for MD schools. (DO schools are much less sclerotic). Many (if not most) MD schools are not interested in older candidates. The exceptions deserve exceptional credit.
  
• It doesn't matter how mature you are or how deeply the convictions are that drove you to want to change careers, a naive, giggly 20-year old fiddling with a cell phone all day long will receive admissions precedence over you.
• Age discrimination is technically illegal, but medical schools rarely feel the need to even pretend that it is a keystone of their admissions process.
• Medical schools deserve a lot of the blame for the primary care crisis (especially in rural areas). When they wring their hands about it, don't expect them to actually change their ways regarding older candidates who actually desire to fill that role. They will engage in selection bias that exacerbates the crisis.
  
• Any mistakes you made in the past *will* be held against you. If you got a 'C' grade 20 years ago, you're going to pay if you apply to medical school, even if your grades have been perfect ever since.
• The best way to get into medical school is to have doctors as parents (or at least neighbors/friends). It hugely greases the skids in getting the "gold star" experiences on the medical school checklists (e.g. shadowing, clinical experience). If you don't have those contacts, it's a big hit against you.
  
• If you juggle a full-time job and family responsibilities as well as studying, you won't get any consideration when test scores are evaluated. If you get a 510 or something on the MCAT, a kid who was able to study all day long, every day, for 10 months straight on their parent's dole and who gets a 512 will beat you out.
• Most physicians don't really care very much about aspiring physicians, despite all the help they no doubt received when aspiring to medical school. If you call around asking for professional advice or soliciting shadowing opportunities, 98 out of 100 won't return your call. The other two, however, are a wondrous credit to their profession.

Believe me, I take zero pleasure in feeling/thinking these things, and if I decide to take the engineering job and give up on medicine, the decision will haunt me for the rest of my life. But I believe that it doesn't matter what I do, how good my grades are, how high my test scores are, or how many certifications I get.

1. Sacrifices matter in the context of the overall application.
2. This is your perception of the situation. Many 20-year olds have shown dedication and drive in the context of their age.
3. Yes, I believe age discrimination happens, but I don't think it's necessarily bad. Training a 50 year old that could die from a medical condition before even finishing training is a loss for everyone. I understand that there are those that work until 90 (like US senators), but there is no extensive process to really screen for this on individual basis.
4. Everyone says they want to serve in a rural setting as a family med doc. There is no guarantee a 50 year old will be different and instead magically find out they love a specialty. Personally I'd be more scared of the old student as they have less time to accumulate wealth and payoff their loans.
5. There should be some forgiveness for old mistakes, but life in general doesn't forgive your past completely.
6. Every profession there is it helps to have good networking. Even in engineering I bet it's easier to get an internship at NASA if your dad was one of the engineers.
7. There is no quantifiable way to know your full-time job or parenting. Besides, your parenting doesn't end in medical school. Chances are you will still have to struggle more than the younger student.
8. Most physicians don't care about aspiring physicians because 95% of people that "want to be a doctor" never end up having the necessary stats, work ethic, etc. Pre-meds are a dime a dozen. Mentoring students in general takes time and opening the doors to their shadowing can be legally tricky.

Sorry that you feel that you have to give up. Medicine might have been your dream, but believe me, at the end of the day it is a job.

 

[__AVI8R__]

I don't appreciate your pessimistic worldview, but I understand where you are coming from, appreciate a good venting session and I highly commend you for where you have gotten. A waitlist means that you're on the cusp. Please don't stop!!! I am certain your contributions will be incredibly valuable.

-Fellow not-as-old, but still relatively old-timer

THIS! OP, don't focus on what you can't change; focus on what you can. You are so close to getting in so finish the task you set out to do. Maybe volunteer some more or take some extra classes. Contact schools that rejected you and see where you are falling short. You can't get younger but you can still improve your application.

And no, these are not platitudes. YOU ARE NEARLY THERE.

 

[tluedeke]

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” ― Theodore Roosevelt

You can overcome each shortcoming - it just takes time. I'm a non-trad student, went back to school at 25 and started medical school at 31.

With respects, there is a world of difference between trying going in at 25 or 31, and trying to go in during the mid-40s (or later). If you get waitlisted at 31 years of age, so what? If the medical schools insist you go get a CNA and 1000 hours experience, so what? Your window of practice goes from 35 years to 33 years. Most medical schools are quite receptive to 25 or 30 year olds (less so at 35 and older), especially with experience.

When your window of practice is 10-15 years, a year or two of the typical medical admissions stalling and game-playing is utterly devastating. "It just takes time" isn't an option in my case - time is my mortal enemy.

And with respect to your Roosevelt quote, I sacrificed considerably more than the average medical applicant. I went through four years of hell, sacrificed a very lucrative engineering career, faced up to my academic mistakes when I was young (and maintained nearly a 4.0 GPA), had no health insurance, beat myself into the ground with 90-100 weeks for years on end, no vacations, no breaks. I drained my retirement savings way down to fund it all. All because I believed in sacrifice for a noble cause and a dream, and if I worked harder than anyone, it would pay off in the end.

Well, all I got were smirks and insulting comments from medical admissions interviewers ("we don't know why you're doing this"), dismissal of my clinical hours as not being clinical experience, useless feedback ("go become an RT for a couple of years"), sanctimonious lectures about how I needed to demonstrate "resilience" and "commitment", and zero support from the medical field.

 

[LibBum]

With respects, there is a world of difference between trying going in at 25 or 31, and trying to go in during the mid-40s (or later). If you get waitlisted at 31 years of age, so what? If the medical schools insist you go get a CNA and 1000 hours experience, so what? Your window of practice goes from 35 years to 33 years. Most medical schools are quite receptive to 25 or 30 year olds (less so at 35 and older), especially with experience.

When your window of practice is 10-15 years, a year or two of the typical medical admissions stalling and game-playing is utterly devastating. "It just takes time" isn't an option in my case - time is my mortal enemy.

And with respect to your Roosevelt quote, I sacrificed considerably more than the average medical applicant. I went through four years of hell, sacrificed a very lucrative engineering career, faced up to my academic mistakes when I was young (and maintained nearly a 4.0 GPA), had no health insurance, beat myself into the ground with 90-100 weeks for years on end, no vacations, no breaks. I drained my retirement savings way down to fund it all. All because I believed in sacrifice for a noble cause and a dream, and if I worked harder than anyone, it would pay off in the end.

Well, all I got were smirks and insulting comments from medical admissions interviewers ("we don't know why you're doing this"), dismissal of my clinical hours as not being clinical experience, useless feedback ("go become an RT for a couple of years"), sanctimonious lectures about how I needed to demonstrate "resilience" and "commitment", and zero support from the medical field.

Will do sir. Life imposes unique obstacles for everyone. It's unfortunate that you have experienced such negative responses from your effort. I never had a lucrative career or retirement, but I did embrace periods of homelessness while maintaining a 4.0 by being a hopeful dreamer and refusing to give up when I came up short. We all make sacrifices, some more than others, but they don't come with any guarantees. It's the chance we take.

 

[DrMidlife]

And with respect to your Roosevelt quote, I sacrificed considerably more than the average medical applicant. I went through four years of hell, sacrificed a very lucrative engineering career, faced up to my academic mistakes when I was young (and maintained nearly a 4.0 GPA), had no health insurance, beat myself into the ground with 90-100 weeks for years on end, no vacations, no breaks. I drained my retirement savings way down to fund it all. All because I believed in sacrifice for a noble cause and a dream, and if I worked harder than anyone, it would pay off in the end.

I did all that. Almost exactly. Applied 3 times. Got in. Then I got cancer. Lost a year to treatment. Started med school at 46.

Well, all I got were smirks and insulting comments from medical admissions interviewers ("we don't know why you're doing this"), dismissal of my clinical hours as not being clinical experience, useless feedback ("go become an RT for a couple of years"), sanctimonious lectures about how I needed to demonstrate "resilience" and "commitment", and zero support from the medical field.

I understand bitterness, disappointment, resentment. So you're venting. People present themselves online in a way that shouldn't be assumed to be how they present themselves in real life.

But there's a piece of you that posted here because you want peer feedback on whether to keep going.

Right?

My vote: no.

If you're this angry now, walk away. If you're this worked up about the individuals between you and a med school acceptance, walk away. Getting in doesn't mean fewer obstacles, it means more. Those individuals are still going to be your obstacles. They are between you and the exam points you want. They're between you and your board scores. They're between you and your LORs for residency. They're between you and getting the specialty you want.

Basically you'll be this mad and frustrated for another 10 years. I wish I were kidding, but I'm not. The pain you've put yourself through to get ready to apply is cute cuddly pain compared to the pain in med school and in residency.

I can't see your app, wasn't there for your interviews, don't know you at all. I'll assume the impression you're making with your epic massive whine here isn't what you're really like. But let me offer a bit of advice if you decide to continue.

You have to accept the med ed system as it is.
The med ed system has some floating specks of brilliance and wonder floating in a sea of dysfunction and tradition and bureaucracy.
The system runs on geological time. Students are drops of water in a river.
The system demands that you be teachable.
The system demands that you be able to take feedback.
The system demands that you'll happily take crappy generic feedback from junior faculty/residents 20 years younger than you.
The system demands that you be a likable team player who doesn't ever get derailed by your own opinions.
The system owns you for 7-10 years.

tl;dr: it's not worth it to be this miserable. walk away.

 

[DrChocolate]

To the OP, I understand completely. I had a similar story. Engineering background. Realized one day that it wasn't what I wanted to be doing, and medicine hit me like a ton of bricks. Left my job, enrolled in school to take my prereqs. Studied, applied MD (my biggest mistake), and interviewed at a couple of schools. I was a young 45 yo, pass for 30s, excellent shape, but it was incredibly obvious that my interviewers were hung up on the age thing. I was waitlisted at both schools though, mid pack, but didn't matter, didn't get it. Life began to creep in during the next year, and my application cycle for the following year was miserable. I wasn't able to get any DO applications in. **** fell apart from there. I tried to get it back, but I lost my in-state status, and some other things, and well, I'm back writing *^*&%ing embedded code industrial controllers.

Hey, I've been lucky in life, and I'm fortunate as hell to be comfortable. I don't really have to bust my ass, I work a 40 hour week, and still in good health. Not being able to get where I wanted to be was the first time in my life that I really failed at something though, and it was very, very difficult for me to deal with. I really believe if I had originally applied DO in my first cycle, I would now be out of residency, and doing what I should be doing. The letters don't matter. If you want to do it, just do what it takes to get there.

 

[tronprepharmstudent]

Don't give up if this is your dream! Be RIGHT!!!

View attachment 228500

Read this: Renee Ridley

THANK YOU FOR THIS.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Well, all I got were smirks and insulting comments from medical admissions interviewers ("we don't know why you're doing this"), dismissal of my clinical hours as not being clinical experience, useless feedback ("go become an RT for a couple of years"), sanctimonious lectures about how I needed to demonstrate "resilience" and "commitment", and zero support from the medical field.

Have you walked into an interview as a 25 year old? No. You don't know how it is. My 25 year old friend had a medical school interview where they told him flat out that "we don't think you have what it takes to be a doctor." Many of the people are of the philosophy that during an interview they have to give you a tough time to see how you hold up when being fired at. I had one post-interview rejection and I called in and asked what I could do. They gave me terrible feedback like "we are opening a certificate in medical studies. maybe you want to try that." When I asked what aspect of my interview I could improve on they said "just google good interview skills."

You're nearly 50. You should know better than to act like a victim and should know better than even with the best of intentions things can fall on their face.

 

[arcus]

You have to accept the med ed system as it is.
The med ed system has some floating specks of brilliance and wonder floating in a sea of dysfunction and tradition and bureaucracy.
The system runs on geological time. Students are drops of water in a river.
The system demands that you be teachable.
The system demands that you be able to take feedback.
The system demands that you'll happily take crappy generic feedback from junior faculty/residents 20 years younger than you.
The system demands that you be a likable team player who doesn't ever get derailed by your own opinions.
The system owns you for 7-10 years..

This bears repeating.

However, it applies to everything not just med ed.

Being a spouse, brother/sister, mother/father, active church member, whatever career... there exists in life a daily dying to self. I am not trying to take away anyone’s thunder. Whenever humans are involved, there will always be the mucked up factor regardless of what the others “should” do. You have to have peace in your journey, whatever it might be, to allow for the fact that the system is broken. The judicial system...broken. Educational system in general... broken. Most institutions today in America....broken.

OP, perhaps you should follow @DrMidlife opinion. While I have never been as angry as you over a protracted period of time during my Med Ed journey, if you have nursed it this long, it might cost you your life. Practicing self-care is too important to sacrifice it for anything

I wish you peace

 

[tluedeke]

To the OP, I understand completely. I had a similar story. Engineering background. Realized one day that it wasn't what I wanted to be doing, and medicine hit me like a ton of bricks. Left my job, enrolled in school to take my prereqs. Studied, applied MD (my biggest mistake), and interviewed at a couple of schools. I was a young 45 yo, pass for 30s, excellent shape, but it was incredibly obvious that my interviewers were hung up on the age thing. I was waitlisted at both schools though, mid pack, but didn't matter, didn't get it. Life began to creep in during the next year, and my application cycle for the following year was miserable. I wasn't able to get any DO applications in. **** fell apart from there. I tried to get it back, but I lost my in-state status, and some other things, and well, I'm back writing *^*&%ing embedded code industrial controllers.

Hey, I've been lucky in life, and I'm fortunate as hell to be comfortable. I don't really have to bust my ass, I work a 40 hour week, and still in good health. Not being able to get where I wanted to be was the first time in my life that I really failed at something though, and it was very, very difficult for me to deal with. I really believe if I had originally applied DO in my first cycle, I would now be out of residency, and doing what I should be doing. The letters don't matter. If you want to do it, just do what it takes to get there.

Wow, thanks for the reply. I've been feeling completely isolated in all this, and I've had basically zero others in the same situation to talk to. The similarities in our situations are eerie. I seem angry and bitter about all this (and I am to some extent), but mostly it is frustration due to lost opportunities due to my own naive mistakes, and a sclerotic medical school system that seems stuck in 1930 and can't see its own flaws.

Unfortunately, I may be in the same situation as you, having to slide back into engineering. I'm lucky to have that to fall back on, but nonetheless it is **extremely** difficult to come to grips with, given how fully I committed myself, and how passionate I was about the change.

 

[nlax30]

I completely agree with Dr Midlife.

While I was a few years older than the typical student when I started I was a good bit younger than you so it’s true you have a different perspective on things than the typical 20-30 something year old applying.

I did end up choosing a speciality though where I will have completed 8 post graduate years of residency/fellowship training while many of my med school classmates have been out practicing for several years now.

If I was my current age and just now applying to med school and I knew what I know now I’m not sure I’d choose the same route, or medicine at all.

I’ve been relatively blessed with a supportive family and haven’t had any major health issues (either physical or mental) during training, however this system has left its battle wounds on my psyche and I’ve done and said things when stressed and tired that definitely go against my personality. Ingave great empathy when i hear of a colleague struggling with depression, substance abuse or worse as that could easily be any of us. Dr Midlife is right, if this is your how you view things at this point I don’t see that getting any better even if you were accepted this cycle. The stress, challenges, and self-doubts get worse later on and in my mind not worth it if you’re already at wits end before even starting.

I wish you the best though.

 

[tluedeke]

OK, everyone, I do apologize for my negativity - although I'm spewing bitterness and anger (and to be honest, there is a bit of that), I'm mostly just in despair at this whole thing apparently coming to an end. I truly believed in the dream, and massively changed my life and sacrificed in order to pursue it. It is devastating personally to see the effort shrivel and die. I don't whine as much as might be apparent.

So let me ask y'all's a question.

Assuming I don't completely dump a reapplication option (even if I accept the engineering job), how can I find hard admissions data that:

• Clearly delineates schools with profound hostility to older candidates (despite rhetoric to the contrary), from those that actually have a track record of accepting older candidates?
• Those that actually are serious about considering re-applicants from those that are just blowing people off with "resilience" games?
• Identify schools that interview older non-trads not just to avoid age discrimination lawsuits, but are actually interested in them as candidates? For example, how many candidates above 40yo have they interviewed in the last five or ten years, and how many were accepted?
• Determine if they do idiotic stuff like average my grades from 20-25 years ago with those from 2016?
• Determine if they use demands such as "you need to be a CNA or EMT" as an admissions litmus test.

It obviously makes sense to reapply to LECOM (where I was previously wait listed, and I know they've accepted candidates up to 54yo), and to stay as far away from schools that I now know are completely a waste of time (like UNMC, which as far I as can tell has never accepted anyone above 35yo, or almost all MD schools). DO-only seems a reasonable thing to do, unless places have a track record with older candidates (like Wake Forest, apparently). The University of Washington (in my home state) supposedly has accepted candidates close to 50yo, although I can't find data to confirm it.

I have done a lot to improve my application strength, at least I think. I'm now BLS/ACLS/PALS certified, have a few hundred hours more clinical hours (although I'm still finding this area nearly impossible to get opportunities), my GPA is even higher (3.9+ in the last 84 credit hours of pre-med classes) and I've knocked out some additional important classes (A&P, Genetics, Micro, and graduate classes in immunology, physiology, epidemiology, metabolism, etc). I am relatively sure there is room to bump up my MCAT by several points (although I look forward to an MCAT retake with no fond anticipation).

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I did all that. Almost exactly. Applied 3 times. Got in. Then I got cancer. Lost a year to treatment. Started med school at 46.

I understand bitterness, disappointment, resentment. So you're venting. People present themselves online in a way that shouldn't be assumed to be how they present themselves in real life.

But there's a piece of you that posted here because you want peer feedback on whether to keep going.

Right?

My vote: no.

If you're this angry now, walk away. If you're this worked up about the individuals between you and a med school acceptance, walk away. Getting in doesn't mean fewer obstacles, it means more. Those individuals are still going to be your obstacles. They are between you and the exam points you want. They're between you and your board scores. They're between you and your LORs for residency. They're between you and getting the specialty you want.

Basically you'll be this mad and frustrated for another 10 years. I wish I were kidding, but I'm not. The pain you've put yourself through to get ready to apply is cute cuddly pain compared to the pain in med school and in residency.

I can't see your app, wasn't there for your interviews, don't know you at all. I'll assume the impression you're making with your epic massive whine here isn't what you're really like. But let me offer a bit of advice if you decide to continue.

You have to accept the med ed system as it is.
The med ed system has some floating specks of brilliance and wonder floating in a sea of dysfunction and tradition and bureaucracy.
The system runs on geological time. Students are drops of water in a river.
The system demands that you be teachable.
The system demands that you be able to take feedback.
The system demands that you'll happily take crappy generic feedback from junior faculty/residents 20 years younger than you.
The system demands that you be a likable team player who doesn't ever get derailed by your own opinions.
The system owns you for 7-10 years.

tl;dr: it's not worth it to be this miserable. walk away.

I couldn't have said it better than @DrMidlife. Take it with a grain of salt if you want, but it is what it is.

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

 

[SpoiledMilk]

• Those that actually are serious about considering re-applicants from those that are just blowing people off with "resilience" games?

• Identify schools that interview older non-trads not just to avoid age discrimination lawsuits, but are actually interested in them as candidates? For example, how many candidates above 40yo have they interviewed in the last five or ten years, and how many were accepted?

• Determine if they do idiotic stuff like average my grades from 20-25 years ago with those from 2016?

Read this: Renee Ridley

Don't know your state, but TX medical schools LOVE nontraditional applicants. TX also has Texas Academic Fresh Start which would eliminate your grades >10 years, and to gain residency status is only a year. Take it under consideration.

Listen to the following podcasts: TMDSAS Podcast

Also TMDSAS' info on TX Academic Fresh Start: TMDSAS Medical: Texas Academic Fresh Start

Here are the TX applicants stats: TMDSAS Medical: Application Statistics

Renee Ridley in the link above went to TX A&M.

@skeptastic is also from Washington state and he is also a prospective nontraditional applicant with family who will be moving to TX to chase his dream. He could also give you insight into his thoughts on making the decision to chase a dream.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

OK, everyone, I do apologize for my negativity - although I'm spewing bitterness and anger (and to be honest, there is a bit of that), I'm mostly just in despair at this whole thing apparently coming to an end. I truly believed in the dream, and massively changed my life and sacrificed in order to pursue it. It is devastating personally to see the effort shrivel and die. I don't whine as much as might be apparent.

So let me ask y'all's a question.

Assuming I don't completely dump a reapplication option (even if I accept the engineering job), how can I find hard admissions data that:

• Clearly delineates schools with profound hostility to older candidates (despite rhetoric to the contrary), from those that actually have a track record of accepting older candidates?
• Those that actually are serious about considering re-applicants from those that are just blowing people off with "resilience" games?
• Identify schools that interview older non-trads not just to avoid age discrimination lawsuits, but are actually interested in them as candidates? For example, how many candidates above 40yo have they interviewed in the last five or ten years, and how many were accepted?
• Determine if they do idiotic stuff like average my grades from 20-25 years ago with those from 2016?
• Determine if they use demands such as "you need to be a CNA or EMT" as an admissions litmus test.

It obviously makes sense to reapply to LECOM (where I was previously wait listed, and I know they've accepted candidates up to 54yo), and to stay as far away from schools that I now know are completely a waste of time (like UNMC, which as far I as can tell has never accepted anyone above 35yo, or almost all MD schools). DO-only seems a reasonable thing to do, unless places have a track record with older candidates (like Wake Forest, apparently). The University of Washington (in my home state) supposedly has accepted candidates close to 50yo, although I can't find data to confirm it.

I have done a lot to improve my application strength, at least I think. I'm now BLS/ACLS/PALS certified, have a few hundred hours more clinical hours (although I'm still finding this area nearly impossible to get opportunities), my GPA is even higher (3.9+ in the last 84 credit hours of pre-med classes) and I've knocked out some additional important classes (A&P, Genetics, Micro, and graduate classes in immunology, physiology, epidemiology, metabolism, etc). I am relatively sure there is room to bump up my MCAT by several points (although I look forward to an MCAT retake with no fond anticipation).

Maybe the MSAR for MD schools, but for DO schools, I don't know where exactly you'll find complete data. You can still check their applicant data reports on the AACOM website, or maybe check with the famous @Goro (he knows a lot of things, he may be able to help)

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

 

[NuttyEngDude]

I've been at this for four years. Was wait-listed and have been preparing for another application cycle, but am 49 years old and probably going to take an offered job and return to engineering. Here's my (cynical) thoughts on my experiences as an older non-trad over the last four years:

So let me ask y'all's a question.
Assuming I don't completely dump a reapplication option (even if I accept the engineering job), how can I find hard admissions data that:

I get it, you're frustrated and are only getting older. As others have said you'll need more of a thick skin in this game. Not only the medical hierarchy will bother you but the generation gap where it's now cool to "trigger" people. Weigh the options and risks, if you decide to go for it, keep aware of this and apply everywhere you want to go, even if you think they wont be sympathetic to your age. There really isn't any readily available data that you are looking for because it's not exactly legal to discriminate based on age. Do everything you can to succeed with no, or at this point 1, reapplication.

 

[KnowledgeBot4000]

So the pre-med experience hasn't at all been what you originally expected and has been very frustrating.

What makes you think the medical school experience and residency experience won't be what you're expecting and very frustrating?

 

[GypsyHummus]

OP, you are engineering and prolly have that mindset, have you thought about other health professions that are mechanically inclined? Like Dentistry (DDS) or Podiatry (DPM)? Dentistry have a ton of biomechanical and engineering potential, same with podiatry with biomechanics and gait. As a 50 year old, no doubt you want to be done with school as soon as possible. Dental would get you out in 4 years making low to mid six figures and Podiatry places you in a surgical residency for 3 year, all the other surgical residencies in medicine are 5 or more years.

Dental school is certainly just as hard if not harder to get into than DO school, but Podiatry is really easy right now to get into. There are a lot of people who couldnt make it into MD/DO school who end up choosing one or the other, and are happy with thier choice.

There are also people not happy with the choice, so I would recommend shadowing a DDS or DPM and doing lots of research into the programs.

Hope this helps, and keep your chin up. Im a non trad who as been at this for 4 years and still havent received any love lol, you are not alone. But Im still thankful for all the little things life throws my way.

 

[Goro]

Assuming I don't completely dump a reapplication option (even if I accept the engineering job), how can I find hard admissions data that:

• Clearly delineates schools with profound hostility to older candidates (despite rhetoric to the contrary), from those that actually have a track record of accepting older candidates?
• Those that actually are serious about considering re-applicants from those that are just blowing people off with "resilience" games?
• Identify schools that interview older non-trads not just to avoid age discrimination lawsuits, but are actually interested in them as candidates? For example, how many candidates above 40yo have they interviewed in the last five or ten years, and how many were accepted?
• Determine if they do idiotic stuff like average my grades from 20-25 years ago with those from 2016?
• Determine if they use demands such as "you need to be a CNA or EMT" as an admissions litmus test.

You're unlikely to find this information. But MSAR Online will tell you the age ranges of their matriculants. Albany, for example, had 2 in the 30-39 ranges (out of 134) and 0 > 40. Dartmouth, with a class of 92, had 5 in 30-39, and 1 in the 40 and over range.


But based upon the success of SDNers who have reinvented themselves after catastrophic UG performances, I suggest these schools might be to your favor, IF your NEW GPA (ie, the past 2-3 years) is 3.7+, and your MCAT is 513+

BU
Case
Columbia
UCSF
Duke
Pitt
Mayo
Dartmouth
Drexel
NYMC
Albany
Wake
Hofstra
EVMS
U Miami
Rosy F
Loyola
Tulane

With a 510+ MCAT, your state school
With a 505+, any DO school. There are a few I can't recommend, do a search as to why.

Your comment here is very telling:
Well, all I got were smirks and insulting comments from medical admissions interviewers ("we don't know why you're doing this"),
This is a big fat telegraph that your essays and/or interview performances did not explain "Why Medicine?"
But if you got interviews...so there is something wrong with your interview performance, not your app.

dismissal of my clinical hours as not being clinical experience,
What exactly were your clinical experiences? And how many hours?
For example, doing clinical research is not clinical experience...the patients are research subjects, not patients; EMT-B is a gloried bus driver; Clients or customers are not patients, etc.

useless feedback ("go become an RT for a couple of years"),
This ties in with the above feedback you got.

sanctimonious lectures about how I needed to demonstrate "resilience" and "commitment",
There are more clues here, but without knowing your app, I can't pin them down.

and zero support from the medical field.
Ahh..entitlement issues? The medical field doesn't owe you anything.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that contrary to what the wise DrMidlife has posted, your in-life persona actually does match your on-screen persona. Bitter, complaining, perhaps entitled (??), have a black and white view of the world, an inability to see what the reasons are for things (witness your vent against your genetics course).

I can't sugar coat this, it may be that you came off as a really negative person at interviews, but no one is going to give you feedback like "Well, you were a dickhead" (just an example there). What they might say are some of the things you heard as above.

My all time oldest student was 53 upon matriculation, He's now an ER doc somewhere in the Midwest. Some of my all time best students have been in their 30s and 40s. I graduated a stellar one at age 50 about two years ago., She's a PGY-2 or 3 in Southern CA.

 

[skeptastic]

Don't know your state, but TX medical schools LOVE nontraditional applicants. TX also has Texas Academic Fresh Start which would eliminate your grades >10 years, and to gain residency status is only a year. Take it under consideration.

Listen to the following podcasts: TMDSAS Podcast

Also TMDSAS' info on TX Academic Fresh Start: TMDSAS Medical: Texas Academic Fresh Start

Here are the TX applicants stats: TMDSAS Medical: Application Statistics

Renee Ridley in the link above went to TX A&M.

@skeptastic is also from Washington state and he is also a prospective nontraditional applicant with family who will be moving to TX to chase his dream. He could also give you insight into his thoughts on making the decision to chase a dream.

I somehow missed this post. I'm not sure anyone has ever tagged me in an sdn post, so maybe I'm just not aware of the manner in which one is notified when tagged.

At any rate, it looks like the OP may no longer be frequenting this thread, but I appreciate you trying to encourage and offer him options. As much of a bad rap as sdn gets, I've witnessed far too much in the way of assistance from members in my brief time on the board.

After almost a year of prerequisite courses, volunteering, sorting through schools in various TX cities, shadowing a physician friend on the east coast this January, etc., my wife saw and felt my level of sincerity and passion and became much more on board with the pre-med process and move to TX. She'd support me no matter what I decided to do in life, but she is now as excited about this as I am and it has been refreshing and comforting as heck!

If OP wants to inbox me or reply here, I am happy to share some of my story and the decision process that led to an out-of-state move. Long story short: the move to TX is a go. We're meeting with a realtor in the next few days to start the process of listing our home and the whole nine.

I can feel the OP's pain because this could very well happen to me. Still, I refuse to invest as much as I already have and will continue to, only to not see it through to the end. I admit that it is easy for me to say this, having yet to reach the level of the process OP has. I've learned a lot from threads such as this one, which is why I've also sacrificed a lucrative career for one that allows me to gain clinical experience. I am also volunteering at a local hospital, and intend to get heavy into non-clinical and clinical volunteering when I touch down in TX. If I have to work as a scribe and make minimum wage or whatever the pay is, so be it. I will not let doubts about my commitment to medicine keep me out of medical school. I took 22 credits this term while working a full-time job and knokcing out EC's. Straight A's, with only a Gen Chem 2 final to go (need a 53% to get an A).

When I apply in 2-3 years, maybe I will look back and be forced to eat every single word stated in this thread. I may have to look my wife in the face and say, "Babe... I am so sorry to have failed you. I did not mean to uproot our family and fail to realize the goal we set out to accomplish." Maybe. Anything is possible. My bet is on an emphatic, "No effin way," however.

It may not be pretty and it will certainly be painful, but this is happening. I don't need anyone to fall in love with me, grant me any favors, see me as an equal, or even respect me. All I need is two things:

1. To make it extremely difficult for adcoms to ignore my well-rounded application and commitment to medicine.
2. One acceptance.

 

[SpoiledMilk]

I somehow missed this post. I'm not sure anyone has ever tagged me in an sdn post, so maybe I'm just not aware of the manner in which one is notified when tagged.

At any rate, it looks like the OP may no longer be frequenting this thread, but I appreciate you trying to encourage and offer him options. As much of a bad rap as sdn gets, I've witnessed far too much in the way of assistance from members in my brief time on the board.

After almost a year of prerequisite courses, volunteering, sorting through schools in various TX cities, shadowing a physician friend on the east coast this January, etc., my wife saw and felt my level of sincerity and passion and became much more on board with the pre-med process and move to TX. She'd support me no matter what I decided to do in life, but she is now as excited about this as I am and it has been refreshing and comforting as heck!

If OP wants to inbox me or reply here, I am happy to share some of my story and the decision process that led to an out-of-state move. Long story short: the move to TX is a go. We're meeting with a realtor in the next few days to start the process of listing our home and the whole nine.

I can feel the OP's pain because this could very well happen to me. Still, I refuse to invest as much as I already have and will continue to, only to not see it through to the end. I admit that it is easy for me to say this, having yet to reach the level of the process OP has. I've learned a lot from threads such as this one, which is why I've also sacrificed a lucrative career for one that allows me to gain clinical experience. I am also volunteering at a local hospital, and intend to get heavy into non-clinical and clinical volunteering when I touch down in TX. If I have to work as a scribe and make minimum wage or whatever the pay is, so be it. I will not let doubts about my commitment to medicine keep me out of medical school. I took 22 credits this term while working a full-time job and knokcing out EC's. Straight A's, with only a Gen Chem 2 final to go (need a 53% to get an A).

When I apply in 2-3 years, maybe I will look back and be forced to eat every single word stated in this thread. I may have to look my wife in the face and say, "Babe... I am so sorry to have failed you. I did not mean to uproot our family and fail to realize the goal we set out to accomplish." Maybe. Anything is possible. My bet is on an emphatic, "No effin way," however.

It may not be pretty and it will certainly be painful, but this is happening. I don't need anyone to fall in love with me, grant me any favors, see me as an equal, or even respect me. All I need is two things:

1. To make it extremely difficult for adcoms to ignore my well-rounded application and commitment to medicine.
2. One acceptance.

KIT bro! I look forward to hearing/reading good news from you in the near future!!!

 

[skeptastic]

KIT bro! I look forward to hearing/reading good news from you in the near future!!!

I absolutely will! I look forward to having some good news to share in a few years, haha!!

Thank you for being helpful!

 

[atomi]

The OP's post is astute.
Medical school is a game for young people from wealthy families. If you're not one of these things, it's harder. If you're not either, it's exponentially harder.
The OP is 49. Realistically would not start practicing primary care until late 50s. Assuming no health problems, we're talking a 10 year career. In primary care, that would be difficult if not impossible to break even financially. If you had to get financing for your medical education, I would go as far as to say it's impossible. The OP would be leaving a presumably $100k/year career for 4-6 years before earning anything again then paying tuition and living expenses on top of that -- that's a $1 million opportunity cost. Besides that fact, medical training is physically and emotionally miserable and will take you away from your family. Dealing with the age issue for medical school applications is only the beginning. You'll be another half a decade older when applying for residency, which is when it really matters. Residency programs do not want to train someone older than the attendings. I have sat in residency interview committee selections where this very point was brought up about a resident applicant in his early 40s when everyone else was under 30.

Everyone is different, but for the vast majority of people over 40 none of this is going to make any sense, and people need to REALISTICALLY understand the hurdles they are up against. Sometimes it seems like older applicants think they should get to play by a different set of rules that factor in their age and different experiences. Sorry, but no. Theoretically you could compete in the olympics at age 50 too. But you're not going to get seconds shaved off your time. The OPs remarks are on point. The system was not set up for you. The system was set up for 22 year olds in an era when the average life expectancy was 50. And it barely works for them.

I was non-trad and started at age 23. Now I'm finishing up at 35. I just can't imagine doing this if I had waited any later. Everyone's circumstances are different, but the reality is that once you get past 30, you're getting multiple standard deviations out there in terms of both being successful in a medical career journey and being ultimately happy with that career move. There are a couple of success stories, but there are also so many cringe-worthy accounts here of people wanting to leave their job, uproot their family, take out huge loans to go back to college for pre-med classes, enroll in some Caribbean school, and God only knows what happens if they actually do this. I can't see any other end result other than ending up broke, divorced, underemployed, and with many years shaved off your life. But I'm sure there is an n=1 to prove me wrong.

 

[skeptastic]

The OP's post is astute.
Medical school is a game for young people from wealthy families. If you're not one of these things, it's harder. If you're not either, it's exponentially harder.
The OP is 49. Realistically would not start practicing primary care until late 50s. Assuming no health problems, we're talking a 10 year career. In primary care, that would be difficult if not impossible to break even financially. If you had to get financing for your medical education, I would go as far as to say it's impossible. The OP would be leaving a presumably $100k/year career for 4-6 years before earning anything again then paying tuition and living expenses on top of that -- that's a $1 million opportunity cost. Besides that fact, medical training is physically and emotionally miserable and will take you away from your family. Dealing with the age issue for medical school applications is only the beginning. You'll be another half a decade older when applying for residency, which is when it really matters. Residency programs do not want to train someone older than the attendings. I have sat in residency interview committee selections where this very point was brought up about a resident applicant in his early 40s when everyone else was under 30.

Everyone is different, but for the vast majority of people over 40 none of this is going to make any sense, and people need to REALISTICALLY understand the hurdles they are up against. Sometimes it seems like older applicants think they should get to play by a different set of rules that factor in their age and different experiences. Sorry, but no. Theoretically you could compete in the olympics at age 50 too. But you're not going to get seconds shaved off your time. The OPs remarks are on point. The system was not set up for you. The system was set up for 22 year olds in an era when the average life expectancy was 50. And it barely works for them.

I was non-trad and started at age 23. Now I'm finishing up at 35. I just can't imagine doing this if I had waited any later. Everyone's circumstances are different, but the reality is that once you get past 30, you're getting multiple standard deviations out there in terms of both being successful in a medical career journey and being ultimately happy with that career move. There are a couple of success stories, but there are also so many cringe-worthy accounts here of people wanting to leave their job, uproot their family, take out huge loans to go back to college for pre-med classes, enroll in some Caribbean school, and God only knows what happens if they actually do this. I can't see any other end result other than ending up broke, divorced, underemployed, and with many years shaved off your life. But I'm sure there is an n=1 to prove me wrong.

What you're saying makes sense. I'm sure there are major barriers for older applicants and those without a certain level of wealth. After reading some of the OP's posts in other threads, however, there is some vital info being left out of this thread that brings a certain level of understanding to his particular situation. He has a solid upward trend (something like a 3.78 over the last few years), but an admittedly poor overall GPA from the past, as well as a 504 MCAT. That isn't necessarily the strongest profile for an applicant who mostly applied MD. He also applied without looking into MSAR very much, and to a ton of OOS schools. He was also short on shadowing and clinical experience hours. At 49, I can imagine that schools are already biased against him, so a lack of clinical exposure and his attitude that it's ridiculous/annoying to have to jump through such hurdles certainly cannot help. And believe me, I understand what the OP means when he cites giving up his lucrative career and how much he's already sacrificed.

Overall, his posts lead me to believe that having gotten some interviews in the previous cycle, he'd likely be able to get in during the upcoming cycle if he dialed things in and applied more strategically. He's right on the doorstep if you ask me. But, the tone present in numerous posts indicate that he is easily bothered by way too many aspects of the pre-med process. I'm guessing that some of that may have shown during interviews. I'm just a lowly pre-med myself, however, so take what I say with a grain of salt. These are just my observations based on the OP's posts.

 

[atomi]

Whenever I feel discouraged--about any goal I'm pursuing--I like to read this quote by retired Navy SEAL Andy Stumpf:

Everyone wants to be a Frogman on Friday.

One of my favorite quotes from the Teams, because it applies to everyone and every goal.

To use SEAL training as an example, 80-85 percent don't see the third day of hell week, let alone the last day of training. It takes a lot of work to even show up for day one, but it doesn't take much to end it. All you have to do is say "I quit", ring the bell in the picture three times, and it's over. There is paperwork later, but in essence, that is the end.

The upper age limit cut-off for Navy Seal training is 28 with waivers granted to a maximum of 30. There is a reason for that.
There is no official age cutoff for medical training, but if there were, 49 would be way above it.
The OP seems bitter, but it's a blessing in disguise. Yes, he lost some money and time. But everyone loses this at some point. Maybe he lost $100-200k trying to do this. So what? People lose that in a divorce, failed business, bad investment, all the time. The alternative is over a 1 million dollar loss and a decade of life. Medicine is not really special as compared to engineering, it's just a different path.

It would be unrealistic for a 49 year old with a 25 year old humanities degree who teaches middle school to think he can go back to college, get an engineering degree and internship, immediately gain high paid entry level employment at an engineering firm, and rapidly rise up the ranks by the age of 55 to the level of senior technical engineer comparable to the guys who have been there 30 years. Yet people come on this forum all the time expecting that they can do just that in medicine. No, sorry, the decision point was in your 20s. It can be corrected to some degree in your 30s, but you'll be behind the curve. Getting old sucks, but it's the way it is. For those who refuse to accept reality, there are plenty of businesses "schools" out there that will be more than happy to take your money. The ad for the one secret trick of the 7-time lotto winner at the bottom of this page might be a better bet, though.

 

[atomi]

but an admittedly poor overall GPA from the past, as well as a 504 MCAT. That isn't necessarily the strongest profile for an applicant who mostly applied MD.

I don't even know what a 504 MCAT is, but I'm assuming it's low (or else med school has become 10log more competitive since I applied). It doesn't matter. He can to to med school RIGHT NOW in the Caribbean or Europe if he wants. Of course that is a horrible idea with huge financial and personal risk. Or he could simply retake the MCAT and get a 7000 or whatever a good score is and shotgun apply every school in the US and probably get in somewhere. STILL a terrible idea. He got a good job offer that will hopefully allow him to springboard back into an advanced career position where a 50 year old is supposed to be and secure his retirement. He made the right choice. Hopefully he will be ok with it and put this behind him and live life happily. OP if you are reading this, go buy a Porsche, take up golf, and take your wife to Hawaii.

 

[skeptastic]

I don't even know what a 504 MCAT is, but I'm assuming it's low (or else med school has become 10log more competitive since I applied). It doesn't matter. He can to to med school RIGHT NOW in the Caribbean or Europe if he wants. Of course that is a horrible idea with huge financial and personal risk. Or he could simply retake the MCAT and get a 7000 or whatever a good score is and shotgun apply every school in the US and probably get in somewhere. STILL a terrible idea. He got a good job offer that will hopefully allow him to springboard back into an advanced career position where a 50 year old is supposed to be and secure his retirement. He made the right choice. Hopefully he will be ok with it and put this behind him and live life happily. OP if you are reading this, go buy a Porsche, take up golf, and take your wife to Hawaii.

I do agree that having put so much time into his career as an engineer and with the level of pay he was at, sticking to it was likely the best option from the get-go. Engineering is a tough degree to earn on its own, so switching to a pre-med track after working in the engineering field for 20 years likely boggled the minds of adcoms. Throw in a lack of clinical experience, shadowing, a subpar MCAT score for MD schools, a low overall GPA, and school selection without research, and I believe OP's cycle was doomed from jump.

My guess is he'll be more than fine. I do feel his pain and frustration, but it didn't seem like he was able or willing to tolerate the hoops one must jump through in order to become a medical student, better yet a physician. It also didn't seem like he took the pre-med path as seriously as one might have expected a 49-year-old career-changer to take it. You'd have to read his posts to see what I'm referring to, but I outline some of it in the previous paragraph.

One example is OP taking the MCAT after admitting that he was not prepared and had been scoring around a 28 (old MCAT) on practice tests. He ignored the advice of several adcoms who'd told him to wait until he was ready, took the real exam, and got just about the equivalent of a 28. I don't see that as a bad score, especially having yet to take the exam myself, but it's common knowledge that a 504 is below the median MCAT of allopathic med school matriculants. I'm quite aware of the fact that if I get a 504/28, my best bet is to apply broadly to DO schools and state schools in my place of residence. OP applied OOS and primarily MD. OP's pre-med journey had quite a "wing it" feel to it, although he may have really liked the idea of pursuing medicine. Quitting a lucrative career and taking the prerequisite courses certainly didn't show that he was joking around. I just don't think he informed himself well enough about what it actually takes and how to strategize based on one's academic profile.

Still, I do feel where you're coming from as far as age bias. I just think that OP's particular case is not necessarily one where age was the only or even primary factor, having read his posts.

 

[atomi]

Engineering is a tough degree to earn on its own, so switching to a pre-med track after working in the engineering field for 20 years likely boggled the minds of adcoms. Throw in a lack of clinical experience, shadowing, a subpar MCAT score for MD schools, a low overall GPA, and school selection without research, and I believe OP's cycle was doomed from jump.

My guess is he'll be more than fine. I do feel his pain and frustration, but it didn't seem like he was able or willing to tolerate the hoops one must jump through in order to become a medical student, better yet a physician. It also didn't seem like he took the pre-med path as seriously as one might have expected a 49-year-old career-changer to take it. You'd have to read his posts to see what I'm referring to, but I outline some of it in the previous paragraph.

One example is OP taking the MCAT after admitting that he was not prepared and had been scoring around a 28 (old MCAT) on practice tests. He ignored the advice of several adcoms who'd told him to wait until he was ready, took the real exam, and got just about the equivalent of a 28. I don't see that as a bad score, especially having yet to take the exam myself, but it's common knowledge that a 504 is below the median MCAT of allopathic med school matriculants

What you describe is one of the major reasons why attendings don't want to train people older than themselves (the other main reason being awkwardness). There is a known phenomenon with older students and residents who struggle with taking not only advice/suggestions, but actual orders from younger superiors. "You can't teach an old dog new tricks..." Yeah, well I used to design EKG machines, don't tell me I'm not interpreting this right. Yeah, well when you were in college I was fighting in Iraq, don't call me a complainer. Oh you've got loans you're still paying back? Let me talk about my 401(k) balance and rental properties I own.

Granted not every older student is like that, but it only takes one bad apple to ruin the whole lot in the eyes of an attending.
Regarding adcoms, they are risk adverse. Their entire job is to minimize the risk of the incoming class being screw-ups. They want people who are highly trainable and low risk for failing or fleeing. The pampered 21 year old son of a neurosurgeon is as low risk as they can get. Even though the odds of that kid being a giant douche are very high, the odds that he will pass all his exams with flying colors and go on to a prestigious residency and career where he writes textbooks and donates $$$$ back to the school are very high. What are adcoms seeing when they see the OP? They are seeing someone who struggles to jump through hoops because he feels they are beneath him. They are seeing someone who thinks his experience in an unrelated career buys him points. They are seeing someone who struggles to study for exams properly. They are seeing someone even in the best case scenario destined to not do well financially and not accomplish much in a very limited career. They are seeing someone more likely to (1) fail exams, (2) struggle with attending instruction, and (3) likely to flee back to the safety of the old career when the going gets rough. Even if the older applicant can convince the adcom that those three things are very unlikely, there is still nothing he can do to convince them that his career is going to have a greater impact than that of the silver-spoon never-had-a-real-job neurosurgeon's kid with perfect MCAT scores and a 4.0.

 

[skeptastic]

What you describe is one of the major reasons why attendings don't want to train people older than themselves (the other main reason being awkwardness). There is a known phenomenon with older students and residents who struggle with taking not only advice/suggestions, but actual orders from younger superiors. "You can't teach an old dog new tricks..." Yeah, well I used to design EKG machines, don't tell me I'm not interpreting this right. Yeah, well when you were in college I was fighting in Iraq, don't call me a complainer. Oh you've got loans you're still paying back? Let me talk about my 401(k) balance and rental properties I own.

Granted not every older student is like that, but it only takes one bad apple to ruin the whole lot in the eyes of an attending.
Regarding adcoms, they are risk adverse. Their entire job is to minimize the risk of the incoming class being screw-ups. They want people who are highly trainable and low risk for failing or fleeing. The pampered 21 year old son of a neurosurgeon is as low risk as they can get. Even though the odds of that kid being a giant douche are very high, the odds that he will pass all his exams with flying colors and go on to a prestigious residency and career where he writes textbooks and donates $$$$ back to the school are very high. What are adcoms seeing when they see the OP? They are seeing someone who struggles to jump through hoops because he feels they are beneath him. They are seeing someone who thinks his experience in an unrelated career buys him points. They are seeing someone who struggles to study for exams properly. They are seeing someone even in the best case scenario destined to not do well financially and not accomplish much in a very limited career. They are seeing someone more likely to (1) fail exams, (2) struggle with attending instruction, and (3) likely to flee back to the safety of the old career when the going gets rough. Even if the older applicant can convince the adcom that those three things are very unlikely, there is still nothing he can do to convince them that his career is going to have a greater impact than that of the silver-spoon never-had-a-real-job neurosurgeon's kid with perfect MCAT scores and a 4.0.

This is the truth. True humility is probably one of the main traits an older non-trad will need to have in order to navigate the pre-med world and ultimately the world of medicine. I personally have no problem having younger superiors, as I've experienced this a lot in my working life. I'm just an individual who doesn't believe I deserve anything because of anything but hard work and aptitude. Hopefully, that pays off. A younger person who's already earned their stripes deserves my respect and I'm in no place to see myself as superior to them in any way, seeing as they've already accomplished what I am attempting to. I honestly don't even understand why such a concept is difficult for some older folks to grasp. You're either the boss, or you're not. I'm trying to learn, not win a battle of experience vs youth, haha!

What you've said about younger students having a longer career trajectory and being able to earn and feed more money back into the system makes a ton of sense. In the end, I expect nothing and am absolutely willing to risk what I currently have for what I want to become. If it doesn't work out in my favor, I will naturally be disappointed, but I'd be able to say I gave it an honest shot and have one less regret in life. I didn't exactly have a career based on my undergrad degree. I'd only been in the sales arena for 4.5 years. I've got a lot less to lose than OP and a ton to gain. It all boils down to pros, cons, and tolerance for risk. Even the young pre-meds assume a great deal of risk along this path. They just have a lot more time to switch gears and build a solid nest egg, haha!

 

[NuttyEngDude]

The pampered 21 year old son of a neurosurgeon is as low risk as they can get. Even though the odds of that kid being a giant douche are very high

as an older non-trad going through med school, i just had to giggle at the accuracy of this... tee hee.

 

[skeptastic]

as an older non-trad going through med school, i just had to giggle at the accuracy of this... tee hee.

Super douche? That's gonna be wild to see, haha. I can handle it. Silver spoons do that to folks. In a way, it's hard to blame them. Doesn't make it any more tolerable, haha!!

 

[Marge3]

Tluedeke, I do not know you from Adam, or if you're still following this, but I thought I'd try to offer something that could help you in your way forward. Your post paints you as the helpless victim, with zero responsibility owned for your difficult and disappointing position. As a successful and experienced adult, that can't sit well. I am almost through with this cycle, myself...I once had four babes in diapers yet this has felt the longer year, even with all the highs.

What you call universal has not been my experience. However, I also don't find anything particularly interesting in the naive and dismissive statement that non-trads don't have something special and worthwhile to give, by virtue of their unique life experiences. Both positions are just opposite sides of the same myopic, self-indulgent, two-headed coin.

According to SDN "wisdom," I'm an even less desirable candidate than you are in ways, yet I have been competitive for the schools to which I applied, so there is a disconnect between your conclusions and reality, you need to reexamine your assumptions. Surely a sincere account of your cycle with multiple schools and many individuals would have included some telling of positive interactions and your own imperfect contribution?

I have fielded some truly uncomfortable questions: depending on the tone and my own ego/head space/level of nerves, I either stepped straight on the landmine or somehow adroitly magicked it into a goldmine, a nice way of setting oneself apart, don't you think? I learned as I went, my first interview was carnage. But I always knew that as an outlier I needed to convince schools I was a good gamble. Even so, it was going to take a special school (there are several, apparently), a bit of luck, and a lot of humility (and strategizing) on my part, to get in the right door. Once there I hope to do my part to challenge the fickle and sometimes-snobby culture through my actions and, hopefully, success... to grow my influence in good ways. I love challenging stereotypes, people can be so frustratingly complacent and rigid. My whole life could be seen through that lens, it's one of my purposes, I think.

But you can't earn a chance to do that with a chip on your shoulder; bitterness does nothing for you or anyone else. Against younger, more optimistic, eager, and malleable candidates we non-trads have to possess a good amount of those same qualities, as well as something deep, wise, and interesting for schools to believe we're viable, even preferable, candidates. If medicine is your Calling, then that should come across.

But it is very possible, a lot of us non-trads are getting there, slowly but surely! I even had an interviewer at an awesome school (MD) tell me how much he wanted me to go there, because I'd bring a diversity and maturity to medicine and my class. How cool is that? That is what we non-trads can offer when we're in it for the right reasons.

tl;dr You can do it, but you need to set your own house in order. Take a step back, reflect, and decide whether you're willing to do the work required to adopt a new mindset. But if you do decide it's not worth it, please don't paint all with the same broad brushstrokes, there are too many good, sincere people involved; and you have a lot of input!

 

[tluedeke]

Thanks to everyone for responding. Tough love, but needed (and deserved). I've been working my engineering job for a month or so, had a chance to catch up on some sleep, take a couple steps back, and make some sober reflections on what went wrong. And a lot of what y'all's pointed out are right on the mark. My bitterness and frustration was shining through in an odious miasma, which is certainly not a positive attribute for a health care provider. One must, however, understand that my motivations in applying at all were in no small part due to several close friends dying because of a lack of access to medical care, which is a deeply personal and painful issue.

In hindsight, I really should have been far more appreciative of how close I got (wait listed), considering:

• I didn't even know about MSAR until I'd already applied, and pretty much cluelessly scattershot my applications all over (rather than carefully targeting them).
• I hadn't completed undergrad A&P I/II and Microbiology when I applied (although I'd had physiology at an advanced level)
• I hadn't taken Genetics or Microbiology at all before the MCAT, nor had I taken Psychology for over 20 years. I barely studied Psych, and went in cold on that section. These factors likely caused what would have been a competitive 510-range score to end up at a non-competitive 504.
• I'd taken Orgo without the lab before applying, and the lab is very nearly universally mandatory.

I'm still thinking about making another run at it, although I'm not under any pretensions about the odds. Finishing up A&P I (the last typical pre-req), and my GPA is around 3.92 now. I'm quite confident an MCAT retake would result in a much higher score. I've got several hundred more hours of clinical experience, and now have several useful certs (e.g. ACLS).

If I do make another run (which is not guaranteed), it will be far more limited in scope (based upon MSAR), would include NP programs (NPs can practice independently in my state), and would probably focus nearly 100% on the DO schools.

I still object to aspects of the admission system (e.g. schools averaging my near 4.0 pre-med GPA over the last three years with ****ty grades from the late 1980s, the schools being too preferential to candidates with lots of connections to physicians), but it is what it is. I guess they don't get the ( very likely dubious) privilege of my re-application! LOL.

Y'all have been fantastic, and one of my major mistakes (in a long stream of them) was not hopping onto the forum and heading off some of my application errors with the lessons/advice of others.

Respects!

- Tom

 

[GypsyHummus]

This is extremely valuable advice, especially the last bit, and I hope people read more into just how much harder it is after 22 each year is trying to get to medical school. Every grade you make counts, and it usually counts against you. I found this in my interviews, I was asked about Cs I got years ago and why I got them.

It get exponentially harder to get into a school each year you are out. This exception is if you enroll in an affiliated post bacc program right out of undergrad, or take a "gap year" to patch up deficits, and these people usually come from families of doctors- i.e, mom and/or dad are docs and know the system. I can tell you in my school, there were a ton of students from doc families, and guess what, these students arnt the ones going into rural primary care medicine (though the ones that went DO are in for a rude awakening when they find out their derm dreams are just that, dreams) We hear the success stories from people who make it into medical school at age 25+, but we dont hear the others who were taken for a ride by the system.

A talking point the non trad forum likes to bring up is that average ages have gone up for medical school matriculation (I belive the average is 24?). OK, but they dont tell you what else the older people have to bring to the application to be offered a seat at the medical table. The really only exception to it getting harder is if you have a special circumstance, like URM, Military, PhDs, etc. The people getting in at age 28 is not little Jimmy who got a 3.3 in Bio, flopped on the MCAT, went for a master's degree because that is all he ever knew was the educational system, and then fails to get in after two years and now is working retail to make ends meet. For little Jimmy, he is basically done (though Podiatry, Pharmacy, and Optometry may be options).

I see the smartest people I know, with STELLAR applications (3.8+GPA, 510 MCAT) make it into 1 MD school, if that, and its the State MD school that favors the home team. I see the people who had a problem with their application make it into DO school (3.7GPA, 505+ MCAT). People dont know just how competitive the process is, and oops, forgot to tell people that a Biology undergrad degree is worthless and has no market value.

I remember reading a statistic somewhere that only 1 out of every 7 business startups actually take off. I wonder if this can be applied to non-trad premeds. We read about the successful businesses, but what about the other 6 that failed, had to liquidate assets or declare bankruptcy, and put their family through immense strife?

The OP's post is astute.
Medical school is a game for young people from wealthy families. If you're not one of these things, it's harder. If you're not either, it's exponentially harder.
The OP is 49. Realistically would not start practicing primary care until late 50s. Assuming no health problems, we're talking a 10 year career. In primary care, that would be difficult if not impossible to break even financially. If you had to get financing for your medical education, I would go as far as to say it's impossible. The OP would be leaving a presumably $100k/year career for 4-6 years before earning anything again then paying tuition and living expenses on top of that -- that's a $1 million opportunity cost. Besides that fact, medical training is physically and emotionally miserable and will take you away from your family. Dealing with the age issue for medical school applications is only the beginning. You'll be another half a decade older when applying for residency, which is when it really matters. Residency programs do not want to train someone older than the attendings. I have sat in residency interview committee selections where this very point was brought up about a resident applicant in his early 40s when everyone else was under 30.

Everyone is different, but for the vast majority of people over 40 none of this is going to make any sense, and people need to REALISTICALLY understand the hurdles they are up against. Sometimes it seems like older applicants think they should get to play by a different set of rules that factor in their age and different experiences. Sorry, but no. Theoretically you could compete in the olympics at age 50 too. But you're not going to get seconds shaved off your time. The OPs remarks are on point. The system was not set up for you. The system was set up for 22 year olds in an era when the average life expectancy was 50. And it barely works for them.

I was non-trad and started at age 23. Now I'm finishing up at 35. I just can't imagine doing this if I had waited any later. Everyone's circumstances are different, but the reality is that once you get past 30, you're getting multiple standard deviations out there in terms of both being successful in a medical career journey and being ultimately happy with that career move. There are a couple of success stories, but there are also so many cringe-worthy accounts here of people wanting to leave their job, uproot their family, take out huge loans to go back to college for pre-med classes, enroll in some Caribbean school, and God only knows what happens if they actually do this. I can't see any other end result other than ending up broke, divorced, underemployed, and with many years shaved off your life. But I'm sure there is an n=1 to prove me wrong.

 

[Skiiiiiing]

It get exponentially harder to get into a school each year you are out. This exception is if you enroll in an affiliated post bacc program right out of undergrad, or take a "gap year" to patch up deficits, and these people usually come from families of doctors- i.e, mom and/or dad are docs and know the system.

I think context matters an awful lot here, and yes, overall the competitiveness of an app probably does decline slightly each year.

I don't think its "exponential" in terms of odds stacked against you though, unless you are applying each cycle and not getting in.

 

[Marge3]

"exponentially harder to get into a school each year you are out..." Nah. I am a much stronger candidate now than I'd have been 5 or even 10 years ago. And the feedback I received affirmed my life experiences and maturity as a positive. Depends on your program, your interviewer, your committee, the weather, etc. but your whole package and suitability for medicine can't be whittled down to "age." OP, I appreciate the self-reflection and perspective in your response! I wouldn't eliminate MD schools, just do your research first, kill the MCAT (which I'm sure you can do!) and know just why you're doing what you're doing. Re: NP, I don't know enough to speak with confidence (and the process is kept mostly opaque to us applicants), but if med schools knew you were applying that direction as well, they may feel you're not really sure about MD/DO. Do you think you'd be a content NP? I considered PA school very carefully; as everyone says here, on paper it makes the most sense for someone as "mature" as myself, and with a family to consider. However, I am determined that the job/responsibilities that suit me the best is MD, and rather than putting my square peg self into a roundish hole, I will practice as a doc in a way that still works well for me and my family. Feel free to pm me, I can tell you about some of the schools I visited. Best wishes on your unique journey!

 

[twospadz]

Your in almost in your 50s man. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise. Medical school and residency are beyond rigorous. You got a nice job lined up. Enjoy the rest of your life and live out the rest of your other dreams.