Why is an MD more prestigious than a Ph.D?

[MedPR]

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Sure. What do you think would happen, then, if all garbage men stopped to collect wastes? I ain't no genie, but I'm pretty sure it would become a living hell a few weeks/months into it. And let's not even get into education and basic services.

1. There are tons of unemployed people who would gladly hop off their couch and take the place of a garbage man on strike.
2. Genie's grant wishes, psychics/fortune tellers/prophets predict the future.

 

[MedPR]

hahahahaha! Well, I thought it was just obvious!....PhD encounters and works with much more information than an MD does....

As far as being able to actually DO the work on the job, well, that would vary from person to person, not professional degree to professional degree. If we're talking amount of information studied, which is what I assumed he meant for some reason, then PhD studies way more information that an MD does.

You're serious?

 

[nowanmd]

All the great "tools" we MDs use were developed by scientists and engineers. Think of all the lives saved by chemotherapy, radiation therapy, protease inhibitors. Teams of anonymous scientists and engineers are responsible for these innovations. We doctors (MDs) are mechanics- well educated, very knowledgeable- but still mechanics.
I have tremendous respect and admiration for them.

 

[MedPR]

All the great "tools" we MDs use were developed by scientists and engineers. Think of all the lives saved by chemotherapy, radiation therapy, protease inhibitors. Teams of anonymous scientists and engineers are responsible for these innovation. We doctors (MDs) are mechanics- well educated, very knowledgeable- but still mechanics.
I have tremendous respect and admiration for them.

Herein lies what most of us have been saying. All MDs make use of the various breakthroughs that were created by a few PhDs. Those few special PhDs could make the argument that they are more useful than an MD, but in general the average MD accomplishes more than the average PhD.

 

[Doudline]

1. There are tons of unemployed people who would gladly hop off their couch and take the place of a garbage man on strike.
2. Genie's grant wishes, psychics/fortune tellers/prophets predict the future.

1. Doesn't quite work that way, hun. This hypothetical situation would imply that there would not be garbage men anymore, ever. I thought this was pretty obvious. And even without this condition, it doesn't quite work for teachers, or bureaucrats, does it?

2. None of those "predict" the future, sorry to disappoint you - look them up!

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

There were PhD's teaching at my high school and not doing any research. Not all PhD's teach at higher level education institutions that give them research funding.

Not all PhD's are even in the sciences.

A PhD teaching at a high school is what would normally be called a "failed career". Considering that in some states you don't even need to have your BA/BS yet to start teaching I think it's safe to say that "high school teacher" isn't what most grad students are aiming for. And obviously a PhD can be in anything, but I don't think we're talking about humanities PhDs in this thread but rather scientists.

Also please tell me that this high school PhD teacher of yours was a chemist with lung cancer.

Herein lies what most of us have been saying. All MDs make use of the various breakthroughs that were created by a few PhDs. Those few special PhDs could make the argument that they are more useful than an MD, but in general the average MD accomplishes more than the average PhD.

Using your logic all science needs are those few people and we'd have negligible loss of quality of life and progress.

What you seem to be missing here is that even the seemingly trivial stuff is important. Science is gradual with a leap every now and then that occurs whenever enough knowledge has come together. Famous scientists are famous because they happened to be looking at the right thing at the right time; there's no reason why it had to be them who made their discovery, they were just the first ones to realize it once it was capable of being realized. Hence why you often get multiple scientists reaching the same conclusions at the same time, and even doing the same experiments. This isn't just limited to science either, it happens in math too. For example, Newton and Leibiniz both came up with calculus at the same time.

 

[noworkhistory]

A PhD teaching at a high school is what would normally be called a "failed career". Considering that in some states you don't even need to have your BA/BS yet to start teaching I think it's safe to say that "high school teacher" isn't what most grad students are aiming for. And obviously a PhD can be in anything, but I don't think we're talking about humanities PhDs in this thread but rather scientists.

Also please tell me that this high school PhD teacher of yours was a chemist with lung cancer.

Humanities PhD's can involve much more information and be much more intellectual than the MD, depending on the topic, of course.

 

[Robin des Bois]

I pulled this from another thread, I thought it would be good to include in sdn:

I always wondered why so many more people want to be an MD than get a PhD. Even in society physicians are one of the most respected professions, much more so than uni profs etc...
I only discovered a few months ago that an MD degree is "only" considered an undergraduate degree in canada (ie. on par with a bachelors; btw in most of the world you are granted a bachelors of medicine degree. Apparently, the only reason you are called doctor is because you are able to diagnose medical conditions). Furthermore, in MD training, unless you are a complete idiot, you will eventually get your degree no matter what due to the fact that schools give a fair amount of leeway with grades (ie. you don't flunk out of med school if your flunk an exam, you always get a 2nd chance) and in a clinical setting you will always have someone above you watching your back (to varying extents, depending on your level of training) and making sure you don't kill someone (ie. you are constantly supervised).
Whereas with a PhD you are working a lot more independantly, and in my opinion doing a lot more critical thinking (as opposed to constantly following a memorized protocal from memorized S&S's etc...) and the timeline of training is basically the same as a primary care physician.
Also, there is no guarantee that all the work you put in will = a PhD (unlike med school where hard work will always pay off). My bio prof has more than one story of grad colleagues who put in between 3-5 years of research only to see their experiments fail and wind up with nothing (with PhD, unlike a Masters, no results = no degree).
Moreover, i think the learning material is at least equal in difficulty between the two streams (my chem prof showed us what he was required to memorize in his PhD program regarding michaelis-menten enzyme kinetics before he could begin his research, and it was totally disgusting).
I think maybe that is the reason sometimes why profs seem a little turned off at students asking for LOR for med school etc...
I just think very few people appreciate the work that goes into a PhD and how it is easily on par with an MD but they make a lot less money and get less respect, less prestige.

Med school is usually more competitive to get in than a PhD, so MDs are generally seen as smarter. Also, MDs are seen to contribute more to society, they treat illness (yes, some PhDs research on diseases, but that's not the majority of PhDs, and it remains that it's the MD you ask to treat you). Plus, MDs get paid more than PhDs, med school is seen as more intense, etc.

 

[MedPR]

1. Doesn't quite work that way, hun. This hypothetical situation would imply that there would not be garbage men anymore, ever. I thought this was pretty obvious. And even without this condition, it doesn't quite work for teachers, or bureaucrats, does it?

2. None of those "predict" the future, sorry to disappoint you - look them up!

1. I'm sorry, I didn't know you could make the rules to fit your opinion. I thought we were talking about the real world where there are millions of unemployed people who would fill openings in no-experience needed jobs in a heartbeat.

2. The whole premise of a fortune teller is that they predict the future. Same for prophets and psychics. I'm sure most people realize it isn't real, but that is the commonly accepted notion of what fortune tellers, psychics, and prophets do. Genies grant wishes... nothing more.

A PhD teaching at a high school is what would normally be called a "failed career". Considering that in some states you don't even need to have your BA/BS yet to start teaching I think it's safe to say that "high school teacher" isn't what most grad students are aiming for. And obviously a PhD can be in anything, but I don't think we're talking about humanities PhDs in this thread but rather scientists.

Also please tell me that this high school PhD teacher of yours was a chemist with lung cancer.

Physicist who said his previous employment was on a nuclear submarine. Why do I remember this 10+ years later? I have no clue.

 

[MedPR]

Probably not. There are many jobs out there to be had in construction, agriculture, landscaping, trash collection, etc., but people are lazy. Yes, some are physically unable to work, some have criminal records, some don't have transportation to the job, etc. Still, many are just lazy.

There is, of course, regional variability in job availability. For some people, taking a job "beneath" them might actually hurt their future career prospects. Also, I think there are weird unemployment benefit rules that deincentivize work in some case..

Given the choice, the person probably would pick some other job over garbage man, but I'm sure being a garbage man is better than being unemployed.

 

[omare61]

apples and oranges.

Don't say apples and oranges. I am tired of people saying this. I personally like oranges better than apples. If I ask you: Which is more orange, Apples or Oranges?

MD and Ph.D's can be compared!

The reason why I bring this up, is because my Ph.D teachers absolutely hate it when I ask for a letter of recommendation for medical school. I feel like they could have wrote better quality letters. The display a jealousy for MD's and Pre-meds.

This is a problem. Has anyone had a similar experience?

 

[Robin des Bois]

money money money

Also generally, an MD can do what a phd does. No chance a PhD can do what an MD does.

You will need a PhD in addition to your MD for doing research.

 

[Robin des Bois]

And nobody is going to touch the MD=BS in Canada thing? Serious troll kibble going on here

I don't see MD being an undergrad remove something from it's prestige, since an MD will always be an MD, regardless of whether it's undergrad or grat. Plus, I feel more pround to do a doctorate in undergrad than in grad.

 

[kpcrew]

hahahahaha! Well, I thought it was just obvious!....PhD encounters and works with much more information than an MD does....

As far as being able to actually DO the work on the job, well, that would vary from person to person, not professional degree to professional degree. If we're talking amount of information studied, which is what I assumed he meant for some reason, then PhD studies way more information that an MD does.

And you know this from your extensive time spent earning the aforementioned degrees I suppose.

You will need a PhD in addition to your MD for doing research.

You can do clinical research with an M.D.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I don't see MD being an undergrad remove something from it's prestige, since an MD will always be an MD, regardless of whether it's undergrad or grat. Plus, I feel more pround to do a doctorate in undergrad than in grad.

the issue is that this isn't true. Different countries do medical education differently - but an MD in canada is not a bachelors degree.... They take the MCAT and apply as we do. Some places will do UG+med school in 1 degree and give an MBBS or MD, but it should still not be compared to a USA UG.

 

[TexasPhysician]

You will need a PhD in addition to your MD for doing research.

Absolutely wrong. There are many MDs doing research more intensive than PhDs.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Absolutely wrong. There are many MDs doing research more intensive than PhDs.

that is the "aspergers" pre-med..... lots of misinformation there.

 

[Doudline]

1. I'm sorry, I didn't know you could make the rules to fit your opinion. I thought we were talking about the real world where there are millions of unemployed people who would fill openings in no-experience needed jobs in a heartbeat.

Yep, my bad, I didn't consider the fact that all waste collectors in the world deciding to stop working at the very same time would seem realistic.

 

[pika1]

.

 

[noworkhistory]

And you know this from your extensive time spent earning the aforementioned degrees I suppose.

lol I smell a troll. lol 😀

 

[SpecterGT260]

lol I smell a troll. lol 😀

you?

 

[SpecterGT260]

And you know this from your extensive time spent earning the aforementioned degrees I suppose.



You can do clinical research with an M.D.

you can do all sorts of research as an MD.

 

[noworkhistory]

you?

Yes I do lol

 

[SpecterGT260]

hahahahaha! Well, I thought it was just obvious!....PhD encounters and works with much more information than an MD does....

As far as being able to actually DO the work on the job, well, that would vary from person to person, not professional degree to professional degree. If we're talking amount of information studied, which is what I assumed he meant for some reason, then PhD studies way more information that an MD does.

1) you need to figure out how to use the quote function. You have screwed it up 3 times in a row in a way that would seem like more work than just bumbling through the net like a senior citizen.

2) This is false. The information can be similar (although I know a few PhD candidates who are exceptions on the lower side), but the scope for PhD is often much more limited and much less integrated than MD. I am dating someone getting her PhD in immunology - she has the ability based on her educational exposures to dive really deep into a few subjects but lacks the foundation to work with a very good deal of our curriculum - even the immunological parts.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Yes I do lol

no no no. I was implying that you were smelling yourself 👍

 

[cbrons]

Threads like this, which are produced quite a bit in preallo, show that the most prudent course of action is to shut down the premed side of SDN altogether and it keep it for the people in med school and practicing only.

 

[noworkhistory]

1) you need to figure out how to use the quote function. You have screwed it up 3 times in a row in a way that would seem like more work than just bumbling through the net like a senior citizen.

2) This is false. The information can be similar (although I know a few PhD candidates who are exceptions on the lower side), but the scope for PhD is often much more limited and much less integrated than MD. I am dating someone getting her PhD in immunology - she has the ability based on her educational exposures to dive really deep into a few subjects but lacks the foundation to work with a very good deal of our curriculum - even the immunological parts.

I guess the comparison would depend on the depth. Just because her research doesn't cover the breadth of our curriculum doesn't mean that it isn't more intellectual, depending on the depth of the subjects she does cover.

lol, yeah, I was wondering about the quote function. I just push the quote button, but that's what happens. I dunno.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Threads like this, which are produced quite a bit in preallo, show that the most prudent course of action is to shut down the premed side of SDN altogether and it keep it for the people in med school and practicing only.

that would destroy such a valuable procrastination resource....

 

[RomanTaylor]

Not to detract from the awesome discussion, but this is HARDLY the forum for an unbiased argument. If you have a group of people aspiring to be M.D.s, And ask, "why isn't a Ph.D as prestigious as what you are busting your ass to get," well...this is the result.

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

I think it has to do with supply and demand (and the gap between the two)

very often we see great programs offering full tuition/living stipends/travel expenses all paid for those who intend to pursue PhD. (this is especially true for Sci/engineering PhD)... Universities are always looking for more more PhD candidates which sometimes are left unfilled. And we see lot of graduates of foreign origin (China, India ..I think are the two most prevalent)

But rarely do we see any scholarship promoting undergrads to pursue MD, or international students accepted to an MD program (it's like 0.1 % chance of getting into med school for those who don't hold citizenship or permanent residency)......The initial barrier to enter the field seems much higher for an MD degree.

(correct me if Im wrong) but I was told that AMA has kept the number of physicians pretty constant since 1970's.... while there are still many PhD spots left even after we fill that up with international students. ....I am not comparing the absolute numbers in Supply/Demand, but I think the discrepancy between supply and demand is disproportionately larger for MD programs.

(and of course, why do people seek after mewtwo and not meowth? it's probably because the former is much rarer pokemon...........)

From the way you describe it PhD programs are desperate to fill seats. In reality PhD programs still have acceptance rates below 10% just like med schools. The reason they offer full tuition waivers, living stipends, and travel expenses is because your career as a scientist will pay so little that you'd have to be a fool to get a PhD if you actually had to pay for it in any way. Hence why MD/PhD programs also offer full rides with stipends and travel expenses: as an MD/PhD you won't be making nearly as much as a physician, so you'd have to be insane to pay for med school just to become a scientist.

Also, you make it sound like PhD programs never fill up their seats. This is also not true. A typical PhD program probably has about 4-20 slots open per year (usually more like 8-12), and hundreds of applicants. They're not at any risk of having trouble filling up slots.

The reason for all the international students is that grad schools don't have the same extreme bias against foreigners as med schools do. The only reason med schools have that bias is because typically professional degrees like JDs and MDs are worthless once you move out of the US. As a result, there's no sense in admitting foreigners into MD programs. Since a PhD is good anywhere, there's no reason to not admit foreign students if their CVs are up to snuff.

The one thing you are right about though is that the demand for PhDs is much lower than the supply. Hence why with PhDs you get a continuously thinning neck as you get farther into your career (few people make it to professor), whereas in medicine the bottleneck is at the level of medical school admissions; if you get past that, you're guaranteed a job as long as you don't royally screw up. With a PhD getting admitted is only the first in a long line of filters.

 

[lobo.solo]

Threads like this, which are produced quite a bit in preallo, show that the most prudent course of action is to shut down the premed side of SDN altogether and it keep it for the people in med school and practicing only.

Common man!! We need this 🙂

 

[SpecterGT260]

as an MD/PhD you won't be making nearly as much as a physician, so you'd have to be insane to pay for med school just to become a scientist.

.

where do you kids get this stuff?

 

[idontcaureuknow]

Ugh, seriously? This is still going?

Ok, let's recount what has been discussed in this thread thus far: MD's have done more research DIRECTLY relating to medicine than Ph.D's.

Nuclear chemistry/physics was not discovered and understood by MD's. Pretty sure that was hard-core scientists. So no matter who found it's medical applications, respect the scientists first.

Cell phones, plastics, technology in general were not all created by MD's. Pretty darned sure without plastics medicine would be one heck of a fun field (think IV lines folks). You can catalog EVERYTHING, and it's pretty hard to discount the contribution of scientists and engineers. The thing is MD's do work which many people see as DIRECTLY saving lives, hence their immense value.

So quit thinking the MD y'all seek is superior to Ph.D's. Fact is, a MD probably suits your life desires much more than a Ph.D. Respect all higher education types and realize their are flame-outs on both sides. Just for the MD's, the bottleneck is undergrad, whereas for Ph.D's the bottleneck occurs later, likely while acquiring the degree and post-grad opportunities.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Ugh, seriously? This is still going?

Ok, let's recount what has been discussed in this thread thus far: MD's have done more research DIRECTLY relating to medicine than Ph.D's.

Nuclear chemistry/physics was not discovered and understood by MD's. Pretty sure that was hard-core scientists. So no matter who found it's medical applications, respect the scientists first.

Cell phones, plastics, technology in general were not all created by MD's. Pretty darned sure without plastics medicine would be one heck of a fun field (think IV lines folks). You can catalog EVERYTHING, and it's pretty hard to discount the contribution of scientists and engineers. The thing is MD's do work which many people see as DIRECTLY saving lives, hence their immense value.

So quit thinking the MD y'all seek is superior to Ph.D's. Fact is, a MD probably suits your life desires much more than a Ph.D. Respect all higher education types and realize their are flame-outs on both sides. Just for the MD's, the bottleneck is undergrad, whereas for Ph.D's the bottleneck occurs later, likely while acquiring the degree and post-grad opportunities.

I think the issue here is the arbitrary line-drawing being done by the other side here. We (or at least I) am not saying that PhDs suck. It just seems like professions other than MD like to "whip it out" and measure whenever MD comes up.

 

[noworkhistory]

I think the issue here is the arbitrary line-drawing being done by the other side here. We (or at least I) am not saying that PhDs suck. It just seems like professions other than MD like to "whip it out" and measure whenever MD comes up.

MD's started it.

 

[SpecterGT260]

MD's started it.

how do you figure?

in my experience, the conversation goes like this:
someone: Hey what are you going to school for?
me: I am in medical school.
Someone: oh, let me tell you how hard my job/program/training/day/whatever is. Also, don't be one of those d-bags who doesn't listen to the patient/nurse/whatever

also, in anticipation of your response - the first "doctors" (or doctoral degrees) were actually clerics. They were given to top ranking church scholars. This was followed by law and medicine. The current "doctor of philosophy" in terms of secular education is a relative youngster to the group 😉

 

[pika1]

.

 

[flodhi1]

Threads like this, which are produced quite a bit in preallo, show that the most prudent course of action is to shut down the premed side of SDN altogether and it keep it for the people in med school and practicing only.

+1 This thread is a waste of kilobytes.

 

[noworkhistory]

how do you figure?

in my experience, the conversation goes like this:
someone: Hey what are you going to school for?
me: I am in medical school.
Someone: oh, let me tell you how hard my job/program/training/day/whatever is. Also, don't be one of those d-bags who doesn't listen to the patient/nurse/whatever

also, in anticipation of your response - the first "doctors" (or doctoral degrees) were actually clerics. They were given to top ranking church scholars. This was followed by law and medicine. The current "doctor of philosophy" in terms of secular education is a relative youngster to the group 😉

Exactly for the reasons you said. The answer is actually buried deep within the complex laws of economics, and is not an answer I actually have, I just have a feeling that it's true. But what I can say is that doctors' high salaries are undoubtedly what draw such unanticipated responses such as the one you experienced, and their high salaries are not set or chosen by anyone, but are the result of some complex calculations that are based in economics. (Support for the idea that economics is the only field that never changes: doctors and lawyers were hated in the Medieval days because they were perceived as having chosen their careers for the money). For some reason, doctors and lawyers have always equalled douchebag in the eyes of many. I honestly don't get it either, since I'm convinced that most doctors and lawyers don't pursue their careers for the money at all, but I have a feeling it has something to do with society's peculiar attitude toward money---and people feeling like they're missing out on something if they don't have a lot of it---or at least this strange attitude toward money that was indoctrinated into the middle and lower classes by the upper class, perhaps? Society, after all, was a kleptocracy at some point in its development, something which of course depended on the political positions of top ranking church scholars.

That said, with a little self-analysis, anyone can see that everything that you think you want in the outside world can actually be condensed down into being symbolic of one single need: an intimate, monogamous, life-long marriage. That's it. Just sayin'. Not to sound all hippie or "Occupy Wall Street" or anything, but it's true. Don't chase money and prestige. (Not saying you are, just saying for anyone who might be). Why do you want money and prestige? To get a fly girl.... So, just get a super wonderful girl....

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

where do you kids get this stuff?

An MD/PhD makes less than an MD by default of not devoting 100% of their career to medicine. The often touted figure is that an MD/PhD ideally spends 80% of their time doing research (which pays ****) and 20% of their time doing medicine (which pays great). As a result, their salaries are closer to that of professors than physicians. Even if you assume an MD/PhD went in the opposite direction, with the majority of their time spent in medicine, they're still making less money than a dedicated physician due to the fact that not all of their time is spent in the clinc.

 

[kpcrew]

that would destroy such a valuable procrastination resource....

So true. I'll be dejected by all the stuff I have to memorize, I log in, and I read a few of the things premeds say. Then I feel a lot better.

 

[Robin des Bois]

that is the "aspergers" pre-med..... lots of misinformation there.

Didn't they teach you in med school to not resort to people's disabilities to attack them?

 

[SpecterGT260]

Didn't they teach you in med school to not resort to people's disabilities to attack them?

You can't self diagnose aspergers....

 

[Robin des Bois]

You can't self diagnose aspergers....

I was diagnosed by a psychologist. It's not me who opened the "Doctors with asperger's" thread. But I agree you can't self-diagnose it.

 

[UrshumMurshum]

.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I was diagnosed by a psychologist. It's not me who opened the "Doctors with asperger's" thread. But I agree you can't self-diagnose it.

Oh my mistake. I thought you were the OP there (who had not been diagnosed). The misinformation is apparently coincidental. Can a psychologist technically diagnose that?

 

[Robin des Bois]

Oh my mistake. I thought you were the OP there (who had not been diagnosed). The misinformation is apparently coincidental. Can a psychologist technically diagnose that?

Diagnose AS? Yes, they always do it. I
I was under the impression that MDs needed a PhD to become researchers, my bad. But then, what's the difference between MDs' research and MD-PhD?

 

[alisvolatpropri]

+1 This thread is a waste of kilobytes.

+1 anyone who cannot see the distinct value of PhD and MD synergy in working together, having equal value to change the face of medicine should not become a doctor.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Diagnose AS? Yes, they always do it. I
I was under the impression that MDs needed a PhD to become researchers, my bad. But then, what's the difference between MDs' research and MD-PhD?

There is often not a difference. And there are several MD/PhD that do not do research.

I need to do some checking but in most places psychologists cannot even diagnose adhd. AS seems out of scope. Some states allow a lot though

 

[SpecterGT260]

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/asperger/detail_asperger.htm

I get the feeling if your psychologist gave the diagnosis we have someone practicing out of scope

But regardless the claim of "they always do it" is inaccurate.