Why is dentistry not a physician speciality?

[Robin des Bois]

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Dentistry is considered a medical speciality, but it's considered seperate from medicine. Modern dentists learn about systemic diseases, and they do many stuff physicians do. Also, physicians usually learn about the whole body. Then why isn't dentistry a physician speciality like ophtalmology?

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

Dentistry is considered a medical speciality, but it's considered seperate from medicine. Modern dentists learn about systemic diseases, and they do many stuff physicians do. Also, physicians usually learn about the whole body. Then why isn't dentistry a physician speciality like ophtalmology?

Greetings,

I can give one good reason. To make dentistry a medical specialty would require so many years of training that the length required would be unpractical. Consider 4 years undergrad, 4 years med school, 3 years dentistry (I take one off because year 1 in dental is didactic) and that is just general dentistry (11 years). If you want to be dental specialists then tack another 3-4 years making total 14-15 years. Dentistry is so complex and time consuming (considering dental specialties) that it would make sense to have its own discipline rather than following the traditional medical model. DP

 

[djeffreyt]

You might be able to find a detailed answer by reading Wynbrandt's "An Excruciating History of Dentistry."
From what little I've read from that book so far, dentistry started with clergy practicing various forms of questionable cures for a nonexistent disease known as dental worms. These clergymen would have trade assistants who would later replace the clergies as the forefront providers of the so-called 'dentistry' when the church band the clergy from the practice of medicine and dentistry. These assistants would later become quack charlatans practicing more scams than true dentistry. This is where I stopped reading. What happens from here till the opening of the first dental school in Maryland is beyond me.
Ask "Armorshell," I'm pretty sure he has read the book.

I thought Armorshell wrote all the books on dentistry

 

[gryffindor]

Because St. Appolonia looked out for us so we didn't get dragged into the mess that is medical care.

 

[DrDDSman]

Because St. Appolonia looked out for us so we didn't get dragged into the mess that is medical care.

...yet

 

[Sublimazing]

Too much carpentry...not enough soft science

Omfs should be a medical specialty IMHO though

 

[cmcner]

You could really question why you have to do these general programs before you do you're intended career path too. To me they just seem like weeding out programs that come at a great financial burden to the student. I don't really see why you need a bachelors to get into med school or dental school, you learn everything you have to learn there and if you say they wouldn't have enough time they could just add a year, instead of an expensive 4 year program. I don't see why you have to become an expert at crown preps to become an orthodontist when a 5 year program out of HS could likely teach you all the knowledge you need you should only cover the things the specialist does in extreme detail and cover the general concepts of the other specialists in dentistry. I don't see why you have to go to 12-14 years of higher education to become an OMFS, lots of that education, is redundant or not useful in practice because your anthropology class that you always skipped lecture for in undergrad isn't helpful, and specialists don't do general work and a huge financial burden. So for me the real question is why do physicians and dentists have to jump through all of these hoops to get to their desired careers. If dentistry was a specialty of medicine it would be 4 years undergrad, 4 med school, and 3 dental 11 years instead of 8 years and no one would question it. It's just the fact that history has established a precedent that we can be more efficient and get to our dental goal without an extra 3 years of redundancy. If all the specialties worked the same way I really think we could find a more efficient way to educate our health care providers allowing them to obtain less debt, work more years, and serve the population better. For specialists it would be so easy to subtract 8 years of school and replace them with two in my opinion without lowering the final standard of knowledge required to graduate.

 

[Robin des Bois]

You could really question why you have to do these general programs before you do you're intended career path too. To me they just seem like weeding out programs that come at a great financial burden to the student. I don't really see why you need a bachelors to get into med school or dental school, you learn everything you have to learn there and if you say they wouldn't have enough time they could just add a year, instead of an expensive 4 year program. I don't see why you have to become an expert at crown preps to become an orthodontist when a 5 year program out of HS could likely teach you all the knowledge you need you should only cover the things the specialist does in extreme detail and cover the general concepts of the other specialists in dentistry. I don't see why you have to go to 12-14 years of higher education to become an OMFS, lots of that education, is redundant or not useful in practice because your anthropology class that you always skipped lecture for in undergrad isn't helpful, and specialists don't do general work and a huge financial burden. So for me the real question is why do physicians and dentists have to jump through all of these hoops to get to their desired careers. If dentistry was a specialty of medicine it would be 4 years undergrad, 4 med school, and 3 dental 11 years instead of 8 years and no one would question it. It's just the fact that history has established a precedent that we can be more efficient and get to our dental goal without an extra 3 years of redundancy. If all the specialties worked the same way I really think we could find a more efficient way to educate our health care providers allowing them to obtain less debt, work more years, and serve the population better. For specialists it would be so easy to subtract 8 years of school and replace them with two in my opinion without lowering the final standard of knowledge required to graduate.

In Canada, a lot of schools don't require a bachelor degree, Medicine/Dentistry is considered undergrad in Canada. In my province, you can get into professional school (medicine/dentistry/law/etc.) directly after cegep (college, we finish high school at secondary 5 (grade 11), we go into cegep (2 years, the equivalent of the freshmen year in the rest of North America), then to university (bachelors last 3 years)) and get into med school at 19 and become doctors making 100k/year at 25-26 (if you do FM)(MD lasts 4 years, but some schools have a preparatory year).

 

[prazmjou]

you could really question why you have to do these general programs before you do you're intended career path too. To me they just seem like weeding out programs that come at a great financial burden to the student. I don't really see why you need a bachelors to get into med school or dental school, you learn everything you have to learn there and if you say they wouldn't have enough time they could just add a year, instead of an expensive 4 year program. I don't see why you have to become an expert at crown preps to become an orthodontist when a 5 year program out of hs could likely teach you all the knowledge you need you should only cover the things the specialist does in extreme detail and cover the general concepts of the other specialists in dentistry. I don't see why you have to go to 12-14 years of higher education to become an omfs, lots of that education, is redundant or not useful in practice because your anthropology class that you always skipped lecture for in undergrad isn't helpful, and specialists don't do general work and a huge financial burden. So for me the real question is why do physicians and dentists have to jump through all of these hoops to get to their desired careers. If dentistry was a specialty of medicine it would be 4 years undergrad, 4 med school, and 3 dental 11 years instead of 8 years and no one would question it. It's just the fact that history has established a precedent that we can be more efficient and get to our dental goal without an extra 3 years of redundancy. If all the specialties worked the same way i really think we could find a more efficient way to educate our health care providers allowing them to obtain less debt, work more years, and serve the population better. For specialists it would be so easy to subtract 8 years of school and replace them with two in my opinion without lowering the final standard of knowledge required to graduate.

ameeeen!

 

[AwesomeTeeth]

You could really question why you have to do these general programs before you do you're intended career path too. To me they just seem like weeding out programs that come at a great financial burden to the student. I don't really see why you need a bachelors to get into med school or dental school, you learn everything you have to learn there and if you say they wouldn't have enough time they could just add a year, instead of an expensive 4 year program. I don't see why you have to become an expert at crown preps to become an orthodontist when a 5 year program out of HS could likely teach you all the knowledge you need you should only cover the things the specialist does in extreme detail and cover the general concepts of the other specialists in dentistry. I don't see why you have to go to 12-14 years of higher education to become an OMFS, lots of that education, is redundant or not useful in practice because your anthropology class that you always skipped lecture for in undergrad isn't helpful, and specialists don't do general work and a huge financial burden. So for me the real question is why do physicians and dentists have to jump through all of these hoops to get to their desired careers. If dentistry was a specialty of medicine it would be 4 years undergrad, 4 med school, and 3 dental 11 years instead of 8 years and no one would question it. It's just the fact that history has established a precedent that we can be more efficient and get to our dental goal without an extra 3 years of redundancy. If all the specialties worked the same way I really think we could find a more efficient way to educate our health care providers allowing them to obtain less debt, work more years, and serve the population better. For specialists it would be so easy to subtract 8 years of school and replace them with two in my opinion without lowering the final standard of knowledge required to graduate.

Because requiring an undergrad education = big bucks for undergrad universities. There's no point in changing the standard if it works and creates huge profit margins for everyone involved. Administration and board of trustees don't care about shaving years off of doctors and dentists lives. By the time professionals get out into the real world, they're not particularly interested in fighting for student interests anymore.

 

[jay47]

You could really question why you have to do these general programs before you do you're intended career path too. To me they just seem like weeding out programs that come at a great financial burden to the student. I don't really see why you need a bachelors to get into med school or dental school, you learn everything you have to learn there and if you say they wouldn't have enough time they could just add a year, instead of an expensive 4 year program. I don't see why you have to become an expert at crown preps to become an orthodontist when a 5 year program out of HS could likely teach you all the knowledge you need you should only cover the things the specialist does in extreme detail and cover the general concepts of the other specialists in dentistry. I don't see why you have to go to 12-14 years of higher education to become an OMFS, lots of that education, is redundant or not useful in practice because your anthropology class that you always skipped lecture for in undergrad isn't helpful, and specialists don't do general work and a huge financial burden. So for me the real question is why do physicians and dentists have to jump through all of these hoops to get to their desired careers. If dentistry was a specialty of medicine it would be 4 years undergrad, 4 med school, and 3 dental 11 years instead of 8 years and no one would question it. It's just the fact that history has established a precedent that we can be more efficient and get to our dental goal without an extra 3 years of redundancy. If all the specialties worked the same way I really think we could find a more efficient way to educate our health care providers allowing them to obtain less debt, work more years, and serve the population better. For specialists it would be so easy to subtract 8 years of school and replace them with two in my opinion without lowering the final standard of knowledge required to graduate.

You actually make some great points, and I agree with a lot of them. There is SO much redundancy in the system. There are some counterpoints though:

1. If you got out of high school and did a 5 year program, you would be 23 when you became a "dentist". Now, that may not seem all to significant to most, but you really do mature a lot from ages 18-25. I can see it in myself even as I am about to graduate- I see a lot of immature activities even from my own classmates, really stupid stuff. Sure, they are fun to hang out with, and every field will have its clowns, but I look back and think, "damn, I sure wouldn't want this person treating my teeth". It's somewhat sad, but the maturity you gain in college and during these prime years really does make a difference.

2. Lots of people don't know what they want to do when they get out of high school. I know I didn't, but if you let someone on a 5 year path and then at year 3 (age 21) they decide they want to change, your dropout rates will be MUCH higher than they are now, and many people will have a useless partial degree and lots of debt. Think of how many people quit of drop out of college- it would surely be as high if this system was in place.

I suppose it's sort of a necessary evil, and in hindsight, its probably a good idea overall. It's tough to explain, but when you realize you are taking care of people's welfare, actually injecting them and drilling on them, you may appreciate it much more.

In response to another post- OMFS IS practically a "medical specialty". They pretty much reign supreme in the dental field, and no one has more training than OMFS in trauma AND sedation (minus anesthesiologists). 4 yrs college + 4 yrs dental school + 4-6 years of OMFS training make them as absolutely qualified as any physician.

 

[BobLoblawDDS]

In Canada, a lot of schools don't require a bachelor degree, Medicine/Dentistry is considered undergrad in Canada. In my province, you can get into professional school (medicine/dentistry/law/etc.) directly after cegep (college, we finish high school at secondary 5 (grade 11), we go into cegep (2 years, the equivalent of the freshmen year in the rest of North America), then to university (bachelors last 3 years)) and get into med school at 19 and become doctors making 100k/year at 25-26 (if you do FM)(MD lasts 4 years, but some schools have a preparatory year).

Quebec is the exception, not the rule.

 

[Sublimazing]

In response to another post- OMFS IS practically a "medical specialty". They pretty much reign supreme in the dental field, and no one has more training than OMFS in trauma AND sedation (minus anesthesiologists). 4 yrs college + 4 yrs dental school + 4-6 years of OMFS training make them as absolutely qualified as any physician.

that's quite a blanket statement. What does "as qualified as a physician" mean? Because they receive the same number of years...or less...as a physician, but without med school they are equal?

 

[Robin des Bois]

that's quite a blanket statement. What does "as qualified as a physician" mean? Because they receive the same number of years...or less...as a physician, but without med school they are equal?

They got to do the clerkship of medical school. Also, some schools give them the whole MD program, and even an MD degree.

 

[Robin des Bois]

Quebec is the exception, not the rule.

And it would be better if it becomes the rule. The other provinces should follow suit and get something like cegep, the best way to prepare students for university, instead of having them go straight from HS and mess up first year (but the universities will protest, because they would mean less bucks for them).

 

[cmcner]

You actually make some great points, and I agree with a lot of them. There is SO much redundancy in the system. There are some counterpoints though:

1. If you got out of high school and did a 5 year program, you would be 23 when you became a "dentist". Now, that may not seem all to significant to most, but you really do mature a lot from ages 18-25. I can see it in myself even as I am about to graduate- I see a lot of immature activities even from my own classmates, really stupid stuff. Sure, they are fun to hang out with, and every field will have its clowns, but I look back and think, "damn, I sure wouldn't want this person treating my teeth". It's somewhat sad, but the maturity you gain in college and during these prime years really does make a difference.

2. Lots of people don't know what they want to do when they get out of high school. I know I didn't, but if you let someone on a 5 year path and then at year 3 (age 21) they decide they want to change, your dropout rates will be MUCH higher than they are now, and many people will have a useless partial degree and lots of debt. Think of how many people quit of drop out of college- it would surely be as high if this system was in place.

I suppose it's sort of a necessary evil, and in hindsight, its probably a good idea overall. It's tough to explain, but when you realize you are taking care of people's welfare, actually injecting them and drilling on them, you may appreciate it much more.

In response to another post- OMFS IS practically a "medical specialty". They pretty much reign supreme in the dental field, and no one has more training than OMFS in trauma AND sedation (minus anesthesiologists). 4 yrs college + 4 yrs dental school + 4-6 years of OMFS training make them as absolutely qualified as any physician.

You make some good points yourself, I actually wonder how the maturity goes with the UOP 2+3 program where you are a dentist at 22 or 23 after 5 years of higher education, since it's exactly the model I'm talking about. As far as deciding what you want to do with your life goes, I'd be for this 5 year program being age blind when it came to applicants just like dental school tends to be, I have classmates that are 23-40, also some of the guys who graduated last year at 30+ weren't all that mature.

Also most OMFS programs receive an MD, and no one really sees a huge gap in training in the ones that don't so they do reign supreme.

 

[NOLAdentist2016]

Who cares why its not! Lets just be glad that it isnt!! Less years to waste away doing pointless internship years, etc.

And as for the maturity thing, IMO, people take awhile to mature because that's the way our society lets it be. College has become 4+ years where young adults go to escape from real life and have fun. Sure, it can be hard at times and some people work really hard. But I'd say more often then not, college students take advantage of the situation, take a few classes, don't hold down a job, wake up at noon, party 5 nights a week and just act like immature kids. If that didn't exist, I'd see no problem with 18 year olds starting dental school and doing just fine.

 

[newyorkblork]

In America, it's mostly a question of the origins. The two studies formed as separate arms, dentists and doctors, many years ago, and formed independent professional organizations, and now it would be too messy and too costly and too much pride involved to merge the two, so they remain separate.

Dentistry could very well be a medical specialty, history just made it otherwise. It wasn't really a "Choice", there was no "moment" where Dentists said "No, Dentistry is special".

 

[Sublimazing]

You make some good points yourself, I actually wonder how the maturity goes with the UOP 2+3 program where you are a dentist at 22 or 23 after 5 years of higher education, since it's exactly the model I'm talking about. As far as deciding what you want to do with your life goes, I'd be for this 5 year program being age blind when it came to applicants just like dental school tends to be, I have classmates that are 23-40, also some of the guys who graduated last year at 30+ weren't all that mature.

Also most OMFS programs receive an MD, and no one really sees a huge gap in training in the ones that don't so they do reign supreme.

I'm not sure what "oral surgery reigns supreme means" at all...I've worked (resident/GPR/extern/rotated) at quite a few hospitals from new York, Chicago, Denver to LA and at all these hospitals OMFS are not treated with respect by traditional physicians at all. I was set on oral surgery for a lot of my academic career until I saw how they were treated. They go through so much training, provide such essential treatment in hospitals, and are usually some of the brightest individuals you meet...and you watch one Le Fort osteotomy and you are amazed at what a trained surgeo can do...but so many of them develop this awful small mans complex because of how their physician counter parts treat them.

I've seen an anesthesiologist stop a planned case for an omfs until ENT did a consult, I've seen Plastics depts actively lobby to limit omfs priviledges in the OR, I've heard "tooth fairy surgeon" used at several hospitals, I've seen hospitalist/IM docs ignore Omfs consults and wait for a "real consult". And the OMFS who do have MDs can take more flack bc I've heard traditional MDs say they "wormed" or "short cutted" their way to an MD.

Now, I'm sure many get respect at hospitals. There are plenty of physicians who respect dentists and oral surgeons as colleagues. I'm sure there are many of hospitals where omfs gets the respect they deserve...but from my experience, and doing a dental anesthesiology res I feel I get a truly unique perspective, it's a battle you'll fight your whole career. And to say they "reign supreme" seems actually opposite of what I've seen.

 

[Sublimazing]

Also, to address the other issue, I disagree.

Of course one could make UG a little more efficient (I took sociology and communications too)...and there were more than a handful in my dental class who did UG in 3 years and did just fine, but dentists need a strong background in the sciences. I just don't think one can have a "doctor's" level education in a health field without 3-4 years of foundational science before professional training.

And I think there's a lot of merit in the maturing comments. We learned in psych and neuro that the avg person's frontal lobe doesnt finish developing until 25...whether that has a true impact, I'm def not qualified to say...but I think people become adults in college. Do I need detailed knowledge of marxist principles I learned in history in college? No, not daily, but I think that information and information in that same category helps me to be a better provider. I think 4 years in college matured my mind and my personality. I think some of that "non science stuff" makes doctors people, and not proceduralist stooges.

And in terms of cutting short specialist training, I don't think there's any realistic worthwhile changes to be made without detriment. During my GPR I assisted on a BSSO in which the oral surgeon had planned the occlusion by splitting the mounted casts, and fabricating the splint (pardon my misuse of terms if this is incorrect). He had the casts with him in the OR...and when his wiring was slightly off, he didn't want to change the occlusion/contact on the patients gold crown bc he knew it was thin and any altering with the Stryker could perforate the restoration...so he re-wired it to his liking. Just watching that made me realize that having 4 years of dental training is extremely vital to the oral surgeon (practicing full scope)

And an orthodontist who provides treatment for a patient so that the general can do a full mouth prosth rehab...or does the gingivectomy before veneers are placed...these procedures require a full understanding of the science of dentistry.

Like I said before there is a lot of carpentry to dentistry...and that's why dental therapists (and the likes) exist...and make a lot of sense to people not practicing dentistry. Does an orthodontist benefit from placing 80 amalgams in dental school as opposed to 20? Maybe...hard to say or prove. But to be a doctor of medicinal dentistry or dental surgery you need the full experience.

Just my opinion 🙂

 

[Lethstang]

our first two years of didactic are almost identical. you could easily make it a 2 year medical residency where you learn hands on dentistry while you learn the labwork. Im glad its not, I wouldnt want another 2 years of school.

 

[armorshell]

Dentistry could very well be a medical specialty, history just made it otherwise. It wasn't really a "Choice", there was no "moment" where Dentists said "No, Dentistry is special".

Actually, it was a choice. When Hayden and Harris decided to form a system of dental education similar to what medical colleges were in the 1840's (Prior to this dental education was much more vocational), the approached the Medical School at the University of Maryland and asked them to incorporate them as a dental department and educate students in medicine with plans on them being trained as dentists down the road (Harris was a physician by training).

They got turned away by the medical school, and incorporated their own school as the Baltimore College of Dental Surgery.

So there was a choice, made by physicians to exclude dentists from being educated medically. We should be thanking them, by the way.

 

[Avrelian]

Greetings,

I can give one good reason. To make dentistry a medical specialty would require so many years of training that the length required would be unpractical. Consider 4 years undergrad, 4 years med school, 3 years dentistry (I take one off because year 1 in dental is didactic) and that is just general dentistry (11 years). If you want to be dental specialists then tack another 3-4 years making total 14-15 years.

Most countries around the world ( pretty much all of them as far as I know ) do not marinate their future doctors for so many years. Usually you graduate from high school at 16-17 , enter a medical school / dental school and you are a doctor at 22-23/ or a dentist at 21/22 .

 

[ozzie33]

You could really question why you have to do these general programs before you do you're intended career path too. To me they just seem like weeding out programs that come at a great financial burden to the student. I don't really see why you need a bachelors to get into med school or dental school, you learn everything you have to learn there and if you say they wouldn't have enough time they could just add a year, instead of an expensive 4 year program. I don't see why you have to become an expert at crown preps to become an orthodontist when a 5 year program out of HS could likely teach you all the knowledge you need you should only cover the things the specialist does in extreme detail and cover the general concepts of the other specialists in dentistry. I don't see why you have to go to 12-14 years of higher education to become an OMFS, lots of that education, is redundant or not useful in practice because your anthropology class that you always skipped lecture for in undergrad isn't helpful, and specialists don't do general work and a huge financial burden. So for me the real question is why do physicians and dentists have to jump through all of these hoops to get to their desired careers. If dentistry was a specialty of medicine it would be 4 years undergrad, 4 med school, and 3 dental 11 years instead of 8 years and no one would question it. It's just the fact that history has established a precedent that we can be more efficient and get to our dental goal without an extra 3 years of redundancy. If all the specialties worked the same way I really think we could find a more efficient way to educate our health care providers allowing them to obtain less debt, work more years, and serve the population better. For specialists it would be so easy to subtract 8 years of school and replace them with two in my opinion without lowering the final standard of knowledge required to graduate.

I see what you are saying, but at the same time if this were the way things went, you would end up with a lot of competent dentists who were also idiots. If I went straight from high school to dental school, not only would dental school be about 10x harder without my science background, but I wouldn't have had the gradual escalation of difficulty from HS to undergrad and finally to dental school. Now imagine an 18 year old fresh off his Sr. slide thrown into a program where people with masters degrees a decade older than him struggle.

Add that to the fact that these dentists wouldn't have basic knowledge of the world and culture from undergrad. Say what you will about a liberal arts curriculum (my school wasn't over the top with it, but we had general requirements), but psych, econ, english, history, and even sociology gave me some very valuable perspectives on the world, as well as analytic tools that are helping me in dental school and i'm sure will help me in the future.

I do agree that maybe DS should be 1 year didactic, then the person decides if they want to apply for ortho, general, endo, etc. That way you can still rank applicants, but specialists aren't wasting money and GP's are freed from gunners

 

[TheToothsayer]

I quickly want to add that Americans as a whole are cynical. Universities and undergrad institutions make big bucks, but they also produce more than society as a whole does.

That's in regards to the posts on the first page.

 

[Shnurek]

Why would you want it to be a physician specialty? They have sucky insurance reimbursements (compared to dentistry), malpractice litigation through the roof, a drawn out non-focused educational system and huge targets on their backs in this economy.

That's why fields like mine and dentistry are better off for the future, at least in my opinion. We pay average $300 in malpractice insurance for example while eye surgeons (MDs) pay 100x more at around $30,000 a year yet we still treat eye diseases.

 

[Regmata]

That expensive malpractice ophthalmologists pay is more than offset by making 5-10 times an optometrist's salary

 

[Shnurek]

That expensive malpractice ophthalmologists pay is more than offset by making 5-10 times an optometrist's salary

More like 1.5x per hour more.

You are most obnoxious trans-forum troll with the largest mouth. Congratulations.

I really care what you think. I really do.

 

[Stacker]

.

 

[Shnurek]

More noble motivation? You sound like gaining an M.D. is some entrance into godlihood. All it is is getting a degree to do what you are licensed to do granted upon you by law makers. Its not about prestige or how much you get paid, at least to me. I am simply showing all the high ego medical students that their's is not the only path to enlightenment and it simply uproars them to hear such things.

 

[denoo77]

OMFS, holds a dual degree DDS or DMD and MD.

 

[Shnurek]

OMFS, holds a dual degree DDS or DMD and MD.

Not all OMFS.

 

[LLU OMS]

Not all OMFS.

Maybe not all in the us. However, it sure is moving that way. More than 50% of programs are DDS md. In several countries omfs is medical specialty, not dental. I think the us will eventually follow making all omfs programs dual degree.
The respect you gain from your colleagues depends on the program you attend. There are many programs in the country where omfs does "reign supreme": Maryland, Jacksonville, lsu, Loma Linda, parkland, ohsu.... Etc it's the same for any medical specialty. Some programs gen surg does all thyroids and Ent Sticks to ears and "gets no respect." it's all dependent on your program.

 

[cofc06]

@samueltak

THANK YOU. Coming from an optometrist, Shnurek is so damn annoying. At least you dont have to see what he/she posts on our optometry forum.

 

[Shnurek]

@samueltak

THANK YOU. Coming from an optometrist, Shnurek is so damn annoying. At least you dont have to see what he/she posts on our optometry forum.

I would have responded to his essay but I frankly didn't care until you decided to insult me just because my opinion might differ from yours. Let me guess you work commercial or find ocular disease "icky"?

Not only can physicians save and prolong lives, they can kill people, although negligently (Dr. Kevorkian would disagree). So yes the ability of physicians do resemble something only a higher Being would possess although I gave nothing to hint at such a comparison before.
Don't try to lie to me, money is almost all that you've talked about.
M.D.'s do carry more responsibility than O.D. Even you cannot deny this. Although the capacity of O.D.'s have increased over the past twenty years, they are still very limited in what they are able to prescribe. Eye surgery will always be dominated by Opthamologists. If I had any children with glaucoma or in need of other eye surgery, I would never be satisfied by the training of an O.D. to fix an organ as important as the eye. I don't care how many certificates you throw at me, I'd feel safer with an Opthamologist. With that said, I do see the role and importance of O.D.'s as the "frontline" for public eye health but Opthamologists will always be the "heavy artillery", not unlike the relationship between hygienists and dentists. Opthamologists will always have more scope of practice than O.D.'s.
Obviously through your monetary incentive driven, narcissistic eyes you wouldn't see how medicine is a noble profession. You probably see medical professions as ways to benefit yourself and not others otherwise you wouldn't be starting these useless arguments. Is devoting over 16 years to studying, living in debt, delaying the start of a family, and sacrificing a social life to some degree for healing other people not noble?

1) ODs save lives by detecting brain tumors, orbital tumors and they can kill people for example by administering too much atropine.

2) Money is not all I've talked about. Actually, I mostly talk about the scope of practice of Optometrists as I educate people about it.

3) Actually in 43 states ODs can prescribe almost anything they want when it comes to treating the eye. Narcotics, oral medications and topical medications.

4) I never said ODs are good at eye surgery. That is the domain of the ophthalmologist. When it comes to fixing vision however, who do you think is better? That is what Optometrists do day in and day out. They help you to see your sharpest. And I know a bunch of imbeciles that go to Ophthalmologists to get their routine eye exam when all they get is a high school technician that gives them a half-a§§ed glasses/contacts prescription that doesn't even take them beyond seeing 20/20 or even 20/25 because they just don't care.

5) Optometry and Ophthalmology being like hygienists and dentists? Hygienists do not have an autonomous license to practice while Optometrists do. Do I need to show you my scope of practice charts again as seen on other threads? Hygienists are no where near dentists while Optometrists are pretty dam close to Ophthalmologists sans the surgical training.

6) I never said medicine is not noble. I am just pointing out the fact that a faster educational pathway is more efficient and economically sustainable.

PS - It would be great if you would learn how to spell "ophthalmologist". For someone that is trying to school me into respecting MDs more you should probably respect them as well by being able to spell their professional title.

 

[Frank22]

Dentistry requires hands on work far more than, for example, internal medicine.