Why is derm so competitive?

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There is a large source of information on such questions; it's called "the pre-allo forum."

It may interest you to know that derm actually ranks pretty low in terms of physician satisfaction (the highest field in terms of self-reported physician satisfaction is actually pediatric surgery, which requires 2 years of q2 call in fellowship, and where attendings work 80+ hour weeks routinely). I attribute this to three things [please bear in mind these are *generalizations,* and everyone will have a favorite uncle or college roommate who contradicts this]:

1) few dermatologists are attracted to the field of dermatology, prima facie, and actually spend their days quite bored and hating seeing patients.
2) most went into it for lifestyle and money reasons. By most I mean 99%. There will always be other jobs out there that make more money, and it's not a perfect 9-to-5. They suffer from serious grass-is-greener syndrome.
3) most were bright people who didn't really know what they were getting into when they went to med school (family pressures and expectations, too much Grey's, you name it). They were dissatisfied with medicine in general and saw dermatology residency as an escape. They remain unsatisfied.

Being very competitive does not necessarily mean that a field is very satisfying. Some highly competitive fields have good satisfaction scores-- ortho, radiology and neurosurgery are some. Others, including ENT and ophtho, do not.

PS all of this information is from the University of Buffalo's physician surveys.


C'mon blonde, why all the hate? Show poor dermies some love.

Having just sat through dermatology rounds during the past hour, I came to appreciate the fact that the women in dermatology rank at least two standard deviations above average residents IN TERMS OF LOOKS. Sadly, most are married or engaged.

Don't belittle specialties other specialties so lightheartedly. 99% of dermies are in it for money, you say? I don't think it's any different than any other specialty.

And I highly doubt that dermies are as unhappy as you make them to be. At least they must be hiding it well, because of all the smiley chitchat I always see whenever I go over cases with them. The surgeons just grunt and nod.

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C'mon blonde, why all the hate? Show poor dermies some love.

Having just sat through dermatology rounds during the past hour, I came to appreciate the fact that the women in dermatology rank at least two standard deviations above average residents IN TERMS OF LOOKS. Sadly, most are married or engaged.

Don't belittle specialties other specialties so lightheartedly. 99% of dermies are in it for money, you say? I don't think it's any different than any other specialty.

And I highly doubt that dermies are as unhappy as you make them to be. At least they must be hiding it well, because of all the smiley chitchat I always see whenever I go over cases with them. The surgeons just grunt and nod.
I once met this premed who said she got kicks from seeing nasty or cracked skin and whatnot. My first inclination was she's just saying that to justify her desire to go into a lifestyle specialty, but who knows? Maybe people really do get off working with the skin.
 
There is a large source of information on such questions; it's called "the pre-allo forum."

It may interest you to know that derm actually ranks pretty low in terms of physician satisfaction (the highest field in terms of self-reported physician satisfaction is actually pediatric surgery, which requires 2 years of q2 call in fellowship, and where attendings work 80+ hour weeks routinely). I attribute this to three things [please bear in mind these are *generalizations,* and everyone will have a favorite uncle or college roommate who contradicts this]:

1) few dermatologists are attracted to the field of dermatology, prima facie, and actually spend their days quite bored and hating seeing patients.
2) most went into it for lifestyle and money reasons. By most I mean 99%. There will always be other jobs out there that make more money, and it's not a perfect 9-to-5. They suffer from serious grass-is-greener syndrome.
3) most were bright people who didn't really know what they were getting into when they went to med school (family pressures and expectations, too much Grey's, you name it). They were dissatisfied with medicine in general and saw dermatology residency as an escape. They remain unsatisfied.

Being very competitive does not necessarily mean that a field is very satisfying. Some highly competitive fields have good satisfaction scores-- ortho, radiology and neurosurgery are some. Others, including ENT and ophtho, do not.

PS all of this information is from the University of Buffalo's physician surveys.

You have no idea about you're talking about:

1. I loved skin ever since I was 5 years old when I found my dad's stash of playboy mags. I'm not bored at all I do all kinds of procedures and treat patients medically. If I hated seeing patients I would of gone into Rads.

2. The lifestyle is great, when I finish residency I'm slated to take over a practice that goes 10am-5pm mon-thurs and still pull 300k/year. All other docs I've meet are envious and think the derm grass is greener, and trust me it is.

3. Agreed most Docs are dissatisfied with medicine in general and saw dermatology residency as an escape. And it is that most FP and IM docs want to do more derm. Just look at the aids in major cities you'll see all kinds of docs ob/gyn's and even rads trying to get in on the med spa/skin care.

you want some studies about job satisfaction just go here:

http://www.medfriends.org/job_satisfaction.htm

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/162/14/1577 or
http://www.gpscholar.uthscsa.edu/gpscholar/FacultyScholars/cr/genmed/library/aimvol162pg1577.pdf

And you'll see that derm is in normally in the top 5 or 10 specialty in job satisfaction. If i lived in buffalo I'd be depressed too.
 
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Pointing out two counter-examples does not disprove my generalizations, which were clearly stated as such.

Be honest-- how many derm residents do you know went through third year loving every rotation, almost got seduced by two or three different fields, but in the end decided their love of all things skin necessitated applying in derm? Every future derm *I* know was among the more bitter, black-hearted creatures throughout the MCY. Derm was an escape, nothing more.

I'm not saying that people don't claw their way out of the pit of despair and come to view residency favorably... but it's not generally a choice happy people make.
 
Pointing out two counter-examples does not disprove my generalizations, which were clearly stated as such.

Be honest-- how many derm residents do you know went through third year loving every rotation, almost got seduced by two or three different fields, but in the end decided their love of all things skin necessitated applying in derm? Every future derm *I* know was among the more bitter, black-hearted creatures throughout the MCY. Derm was an escape, nothing more.

I'm not saying that people don't claw their way out of the pit of despair and come to view residency favorably... but it's not generally a choice happy people make.

Judge not, lest you be judged.

Maybe the culprit is the sorry state of medicine in general.
 
Be honest-- how many derm residents do you know went through third year loving every rotation, almost got seduced by two or three different fields, but in the end decided their love of all things skin necessitated applying in derm? Every future derm *I* know was among the more bitter, black-hearted creatures throughout the MCY. Derm was an escape, nothing more.

You are extremely ignorant.
 
Still waiting for someone to refute my larger point....
 
Still waiting for someone to refute my larger point....

Its useless. You have your unsubstantiated claims which are easy to refute (the 99% number was obviousy pulled out of your ignorant ass), but ones that you will inevitably defend with some horse**** evidence.

You come across as someone who failed to match into derm, bitter and disillusioned with the competitiveness and trying to justify your hurt ego by belittling the field you couldn't get into. Do yourself a favor and shut up.

I'm not going to waste any more time with you.
 
Its useless. You have your unsubstantiated claims which are easy to refute (the 99% number was obviousy pulled out of your ignorant ass), but ones that you will inevitably defend with some horse**** evidence.

You come across as someone who failed to match into derm, bitter and disillusioned with the competitiveness and trying to justify your hurt ego by belittling the field you couldn't get into. Do yourself a favor and shut up.

I'm not going to waste any more time with you.

Why don't you tell her how you really feel? :laugh:

Still waiting for someone to refute my larger point....

You made claims based on "University of Buffalo surveys", and when Phospho posted original peer-reviewed research straight from the AMA (I think it's three links to the same data) that refuted your claims, you said well one example doesn't invalidate your generalizatons and, paradoxically, appealed to the n=1 in all of us with "Be honest-- how many derm residents do you know..." You've already had Long Dong post in this thread about how great the specialty is, and a couple of others who 'know derm residents' who report high satisfaction. What other refutation do you require? Post your survey data, I'm curious as to what it shows and whether it's valid.

BTW, anybody know why geriatrics and infectious disease is so high on the list? Seems like those would be terribly un-satisfying professions to me.
 
Oh for heaven's sake ML, simmer the hell down. I don't know why you have such a personal stake in this but I seem to have hit some ginormous nerve.

I wanted to make the interesting point that the most competitive specialties are not necessarily the ones with the highest satisfaction. The surveys I alluded to are ones most people narrowing down their specialty choice are familiar with--

http://www.smbs.buffalo.edu/RESIDENT/CareerCounseling/intro.htm

The other stuff I said... yeah, it was speculative, but I believe it nonetheless. Wait till you actually go through MS3 year and see who funnels off into derm.

And I've really misrepresented myself if (as a rising MS4) I've appeared to be an unmatched derm applicant.

But hell yeah, I agree-- let's put a lid on this little tempest in a teapot.
 
Oh for heaven's sake ML, simmer the hell down. I don't know why you have such a personal stake in this but I seem to have hit some ginormous nerve.

I wanted to make the interesting point that the most competitive specialties are not necessarily the ones with the highest satisfaction. The surveys I alluded to are ones most people narrowing down their specialty choice are familiar with--

http://www.smbs.buffalo.edu/RESIDENT/CareerCounseling/intro.htm

The other stuff I said... yeah, it was speculative, but I believe it nonetheless. Wait till you actually go through MS3 year and see who funnels off into derm.

And I've really misrepresented myself if (as a rising MS4) I've appeared to be an unmatched derm applicant.

But hell yeah, I agree-- let's put a lid on this little tempest in a teapot.

I don't understand, according to your data (http://www.smbs.buffalo.edu/RESIDENT/CareerCounseling/pdf/Dermatology.pdf) dermatologists have very high job satisfaction -- 50 very/somewhat satisfied, only 1 very/somewhat dissatisfied. >96% said they would choose the field if they had it to do over, and the other metrics all score high as well. I agree with you that more money doesn't necessarily mean high job satisfaction, and I think the data bears that out for things like ophtho and ENT, but unless I'm very much mistaken dermatology seems to have the goods.
 
I don't understand, according to your data (http://www.smbs.buffalo.edu/RESIDENT/CareerCounseling/pdf/Dermatology.pdf) dermatologists have very high job satisfaction -- 50 very/somewhat satisfied, only 1 very/somewhat dissatisfied. >96% said they would choose the field if they had it to do over, and the other metrics all score high as well. I agree with you that more money doesn't necessarily mean high job satisfaction, and I think the data bears that out for things like ophtho and ENT, but unless I'm very much mistaken dermatology seems to have the goods.

Obviously uncle anecdotal survey evidence. Derms hate their lives remember?
 
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I kind of want to pick based on whether I will enjoy going to work. I don't want a specialty that pays alot if I hate doing it. If I get something I enjoy, then it won't matter.
 
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