why is everyone so stuck on saving babies?

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this case rocked the med center, particularly texas children's hospital and ever ethics professor in the city.

just teaches you -- know WHEN to intubate. this child should NEVER have been intubated. he never had any chance for life. and yet, HE GOT ICU Level care, [thousands of dollars a day] for NO REASON WHATSOEVER, while other kids, who could've used those resources and that money, were denied it. AND HE WAS FULL CODE. 😕 which is totally ridiculous. it would be like stopping the hospital and calling in everyone to resuscitate a corpse. totally ridiculous.
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http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/casey/3047420

No villains in this sad story
By RICK CASEY
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

If any of you think Texas Children's Hospital is hard-hearted in going to court to seek to take 4 1/2 -month-old Sun Hudson off life-support machines, consider this:

Texas law allowed them to do it months ago without going to court.

What's more, some experts in medical ethics consider the Texas law to be a model.

If you haven't kept up with the story, Sun was born with a form of dwarfism that is almost always fatal not long after birth. What's more, it typically restricts the growth of the rib cage and lungs, so that as the rest of the baby grows he slowly suffocates.

Doctors at Texas Children's came to the conclusion last November that keeping Sun on a ventilator would only delay his death, possibly painfully.

But Wanda Hudson, the baby's mother, insisted that Sun be kept alive. Discussions with her did not get far. Among other things, she says her son was not conceived by a man but by the sun and that he will never die.

Last week, Probate Judge William McCulloch lifted an order barring doctors from removing Sun from the ventilator. That the order was put in place in the first place was somewhat extraordinary.


No takers for case
Under a law passed in 1999 and refined two years ago, the hospital had a clear process under which it could take the action it deemed best without going to court.

It was required to give the mother at least 48 hours' notice that a meeting on the doctors' recommendation would be held by the hospital's standing ethics committee.

She would be permitted to participate in the meeting if she chose. If the committee agreed with the doctors, which it did, the hospital was required to make a good faith effort to find a physician or a facility that would take over care of the baby. If none could be found within 10 days, the hospital could remove the baby from the ventilator.

Instead, the hospital offered to pay for a lawyer for Hudson so she could take the case before a judge.

Hospital officials say they contacted 40 institutions, but none would take the baby. Nor has any doctor or institution come forward in the wake of considerable publicity.

John Paris, Walsh Professor of Bioethics at Boston College and a leading expert on end-of-life issues, calls the Texas law "a terrific statute." He says only California has a similar law.

The virtue of the law, he said, is that it is based on a reasonable process, not on heart-wrenching questions of whether the child can live and, if so, what kind of a life he will have.


Mothers cry, judges punt
"The problem is that very, very few judges will order the cessation of life-sustaining treatment in the face of a crying mother," he said. "The judge says, 'They don't pay me enough to do this.' He figures whichever way he rules, his decision will be appealed. The appeals judges, who don't have the mother in front of them, can make the decision."

The Texas law supposes that if no other doctor or institution will take the patient, then the doctors and ethics committee that dealt with it are very likely to be right.

Paris said in such cases, doctors are not "playing God," but trying to be ethical. And the notion that letting a person die may be the right thing to do is not new.

In one of the papers he has authored or co-authored on the question, Paris quoted Hippocrates: "To impose treatment on the patient overmastered by disease is to display an ignorance akin to madness."

Paris says another argument for the law is that family members are often paralyzed by such a decision. They are afraid of the guilt associated with the responsibility of choosing death.


Looking out for parent
Joan Krause, a professor at the University of Houston Law Center and co-director of the Center's Health Law and Policy Institute, said she thought Texas Children's was taking a chance with this case out of "a concern whether the mother truly appreciates what is happening."

This is Texas, she said. They might have found a judge who would say, "The statute allowed you to do that but you took a different route and now I'm going to order you to continue."

Hudson's lawyer, providing vigorous representation, is appealing Judge McCulloch's decision. An expedited hearing is scheduled Tuesday at Houston's 1st Court of Appeals.

Then, perhaps, this sad story with no villains will come to an end.
 
typeB-md said:
i'm surprised you're not working for boeing with such superior logistical skills.

and grandma can choose to do whatever she likes.. that's not my decision. if i ever had a kid with Down's, spina bifida, 20 weeks premature, cerebral palsy, maybe even type 1 diabetes.. i'd rather let the child die so that he didn't have to know a life filled with torture.

What? What? WHAT?!?!?! Are you crazy? You think Type 1 diabetes makes life not worth living? First of all, it's not a birth defect, so what are you going to do, let your three year old who is diagnosed with T1 go into DKA and die because that's better than injections or pumps? Oh my LORD, please do not tell me you are in medical school and please don't EVER have children if you'd rather they die than have diabetes, for God's sake! You are crazy!

these children with debilitating defects really are sad to see. why not just let the child pass on as obviously there is some genetic abnormality or birth abnormality... why must we insist on putting so much time and money into saving babies that otherwise serve no purpose and would have 0 chance of survival if not for us wanting to play god.

Yeah, people with diabetes or spina bifida serve no purpose. You're sick.

is it really better that we can save the premature baby who then grows up mentally ******ed? even if we can use genetics to somewhat alter the embryo or fetus, why not just have another baby?

Some of the nicest and sunniest people I have ever met had Down's. They brought a lot of happiness into the lives of their families and everyone who met them. We should have drowned them at birth.

You disgust me.
 
Typeb-md said:
but if i was born with some disability, i would rather have not been born than have to deal with it and never know a normal life.

Good for you, but the millions of people with T1DM out there do live normal lives. I'm sorry you have such a stunted view of "normal" and "worthwhile."
 
typeB-md said:
i already gave my example...

what is the downside to allowing these babies to die?

also, why is it so much better to try and genetically engineer a solution to the baby's problem rather than just let the baby die so that nature can fix its own problem?

Well, why not just let EVERYONE who develops a disease die? T1DM ISN'T A BIRTH DEFECT, so you're basically saying that anyone who develops DM should just be left to die because that's how nature intended?! Yeah, and let's withhold HTN meds because that's how nature intended. Let's make T2DM patients go without oral meds so that they'll die faster. Let's abolish surgery -- it's not natural.

You are so, so, awful in how you think about chronic illness. Shame on you.
 
typeB-md said:
what is the disadvantage of allowing a baby with type I DM to die? if a parent thought it was the better decision to not have to have teh baby deal with it? It's not like insulin was made to be externally available.

A baby with T1DM can and will grow up to live a normal life! How can you possibly say what you are sayiing?! It is so distressing to think that there are people out there to think like you! It's not like a baby with T1 is going to grow up ******ed, disabled, unable to contribute to society, unable to lead a completely normal life. Simply needing insulin isn't such a big deal! Why do you have such disregard for diabetics? Do you think everyone with an illness requiring daily meds should be left to die? You seem like such a crazy person... I hope you are not a doctor or a doctor-to-be.
 
I have to agree with addennis and say that reading this thread saddened me.

Some of the posters seem to have no understanding of the many gray areas in ethics. I've seen people put forth an opinion which only gets more extreme and entrenched when they hear opposing arguments. Why the resistance to absorbing and learning from another point of view?

I do see a reason not to put infants who will imminently die or never be conscious on life support --anencephalics being the most straightforward example-- but it is hard to read that assumed future productivity or social usefulness should be the measuring stick for providing care for disabled infants. This makes us little better than animals.

And much as I hate to even need to say this, many people with disabilities live productive, socially useful lives.
 
gaf said:
Again, TypeB presents diabetes mellitus as one of the most horrible calamities ever to befall a child.

I've heard that sometimes children are born who will grow up to become bald-headed, or even shorter than average. What should we do about them?

Seriously, what's so horrible about DM?
This reminds me of the guy from the Metallica song, "One". I am bound to go bald. Oh God, spare me the misery!!!
 
tigress said:
Actually there was an article, and I forget where but maybe Newsweek, written by a severely disabled lawyer about her relationship/conversations with Singer. The lawyer practices with my mother so I can ask my mother where that was written. It's pretty interesting, though of course from a person with a very strong stance on one side of the issue for personal reasons.
WOW! tres cool!

I again have only skimmed through this thread but ultimately, there may not be a uniform way to handle this issue. There will always be premies who could have been the next Hawking, or this atty, or big-contributor-to-society but died w/o extreme medical intervention. There will always be snotnosed-spoiled-well-cared-for-kids born into rich families that grow up to become rapists, murders, embezzlers of thousands of peoples retirements/life savings, etc.

With regard to laws & standards etc., I would just hope that if I gave birth to a child w/ severe congenital defects, and wanted the child to be on DNR status (or however they designate it), no person/regulation/legal code would prevent me from doing so. I would hope that if I could afford to keep the child alive & cared for for the rest of his/her life, I could pursue that option (since money buys everything).
 
stinkycheese said:
Typeb-md said:
but if i was born with some disability, i would rather have not been born than have to deal with it and never know a normal life.
Good for you, but the millions of people with T1DM out there do live normal lives. I'm sorry you have such a stunted view of "normal" and "worthwhile."
<sigh> as Mr. T says: "I pity the fool".....
Typeb-md: your existence on SDN is actually a good excercise in cultivating tolerance of your ilk for the some of us. Just know that not all disabilities are physical. I guess if I had to put myself in your shoes, and was more aware of the effect I had on others, especially pts, I would wish to not have been born either.... it's like body odor, only more serious- a person often can't smell it on themselves.
 
ursulamajor said:
...but it is hard to read that assumed future productivity or social usefulness should be the measuring stick for providing care for disabled infants. This makes us little better than animals.

Actually it would make us incredibly utilitarian (which, IMHO is NOT a good thing).

-Ice
 
Quality of life has been cited here frequently as one of the reasons for withholding medical care. Central to this is one of three assumptions:

1. The child is conscious (or will be eventually) and has a preference not to live with their condition.

2. The child is conscious (or will be eventually), however, the parent's rights supercede the child's and the parent's decision is the one of most importance.

3. The child is permanantly unconscious and it is ethical to withhold treatment from the permantly unconscious

The first arguement is a cop-out... it places the burden of the decision on the child, who is obviously not making the decision. Have the commitment to say what you mean - "I do not understand how your life could have value" or worse "your life will be an inconvienence to mine." It feels much better to be acting in someone's best interests than to be allowing them to die for yours.

The second case too leads to absurdity. When do the childs rights become equivalent to the parents? 1 month, 1 year, 18 years? Is it ethical to allow the starvation of a non-handicapped boy at the request of the parents because they wanted a girl?

The third arguement is more compelling. As many other objectors have agreed, if there is an abnormality that will cause the child to basically be a part of a machine, unable to ever function without it, it may be ethical to withhold life support. A child with a condition that may prevent them from living to 6 years old but is otherwise autonomous is not the same as a child born with no brain.

TypeB-MD asks why it is our buisness, not just his own. I ask back, if a drifter on the street with no friends or family is murdered, it it society's buisness? Should the killer be arrested, even though there is not one person who misses the drifter? Should you turn a blind eye if you see a child with cigarette burns and bruises during an exam because it is not your buisness? The offense is against both the person injured and the laws and ethics of our society. If we don't stand up for other people, even ones we do not know, we ignore the principles of civilized society and become like animals in a pack.
 
medic170 said:
It is because he did it deceitfully after I quoted him in order to make it look like I was being deceitful by misquoting him. He is a liar.

pm a mod a see if they can check my edit time. i would stake my medschool attendance on it. why would i lie about something so ******ed?
 
typeB-md said:
pm a mod a see if they can check my edit time. i would stake my medschool attendance on it. why would i lie about something so ******ed?

Just drop it my friend. We both know the truth, and that is all that matters. I am letting this go now, so should you.
 
easy said:
TypeB-MD asks why it is our buisness, not just his own. I ask back, if a drifter on the street with no friends or family is murdered, it it society's buisness? Should the killer be arrested, even though there is not one person who misses the drifter? Should you turn a blind eye if you see a child with cigarette burns and bruises during an exam because it is not your buisness? The offense is against both the person injured and the laws and ethics of our society. If we don't stand up for other people, even ones we do not know, we ignore the principles of civilized society and become like animals in a pack.

since there is no one to represent this man, we must assume that his wishes were to live. it is wrong to unjustly kill anyone since we must err on the side that they wanted to live. this is why euthanasia should unequivocally be allowed. if a person wishes to die, they have every right to die... society has no justifiable reason to butt-in on someone's request to die.

for me, i have complete judicial authority over my child. i, as his/her guardian am the only person who is able to make the decision on what my child would want. if i feel that allowing him/her to live will cause more pain and suffering, i can justly not allow him/her to live.

i know we like to pretend that "society" has this role of protecting everyone. but since i am of a sound mind and just because you disagree with my logic, as long as it doesn't affect you, i do not really care what you believe.

people need to learn that their entitlement to their beliefs ends with them and their family. do what you want... just don't tell me what i can/can't do.
 
typeB-md said:
for me, i have complete judicial authority over my child. i, as his/her guardian am the only person who is able to make the decision on what my child would want. if i feel that allowing him/her to live will cause more pain and suffering, i can justly not allow him/her to live.
I agree that parental authority must be respected and that doctors have no buisness tampering with informed consent and refusal of care. However, if you decided to stop feeding your daughter because she was just diagnosed with DM at age 3, or you withhold antibiotics from your son with a life-threatening infection you would likely be found incompetant as a parent. Where I question you is at what age does your parental authority end?

Another important distinction here is ethical vs. legal. Cheating on an exam is unethical but not illegal (at least I've never heard of anyone prosecuted for this) and speeding is sometimes ethically justified but still not legal. I think the backlash here against your point is not that people want the government to tell you (or them) what to do but that they wish you wouldn't assume that a handicapped child could have a meaningful and productive life, even if short and painful.
 
stinkycheese said:
*.anycomment

i don't really care to hear what you say as you are not even in medical school. please wait a year and try again. i applaud your efforts and motivation.
 
easy said:
I agree that parental authority must be respected and that doctors have no buisness tampering with informed consent and refusal of care. However, if you decided to stop feeding your daughter because she was just diagnosed with DM at age 3, or you withhold antibiotics from your son with a life-threatening infection you would likely be found incompetant as a parent. Where I question you is at what age does your parental authority end?

Another important distinction here is ethical vs. legal. Cheating on an exam is unethical but not illegal (at least I've never heard of anyone prosecuted for this) and speeding is sometimes ethically justified but still not legal. I think the backlash here against your point is not that people want the government to tell you (or them) what to do but that they wish you wouldn't assume that a handicapped child could have a meaningful and productive life, even if short and painful.

i have bolded the irony in this post. and again, if the child is 3, there is cognition of the facts. a three year old may not be able to understand finality of death, but they can vocalize what they would like to do. an infant is not cognitive in this same sense of person, place, and time.

according to my standards, a good majority of chronically and severly handicapped people do not live productive lives. meaningful is something internal, so i cannot comment on this. but as far as productivity, many of these individuals lack the capacity to perform at the level that i would expect my child to perform at.
 
typeB-md said:
i have bolded the irony in this post. and again, if the child is 3, there is cognition of the facts. a three year old may not be able to understand finality of death, but they can vocalize what they would like to do. an infant is not cognitive in this same sense of person, place, and time.

according to my standards, a good majority of chronically and severly handicapped people do not live productive lives. meaningful is something internal, so i cannot comment on this. but as far as productivity, many of these individuals lack the capacity to perform at the level that i would expect my child to perform at.

I agree that my misspelling of incompetent is quite ironic.

Now to the points.

I am glad that we agree that a 3 year old is a person who has some understanding of their place in the world, but more importantly that a three year old is a person with rights. What I am curious about is when do you think these rights are conferred? You make inference to the ability to judge person, place and time. How do you decide when this has occurred? And why is this the criteria? Many people with minor head injuries or under the influence of drugs are unaware of person, place and time - has their "personhood" been suspended?

A severely handicapped individual may never come to understand the world in the way you do. You will probably never understand the world in the way that they do. Does that mean that their understanding is less valid than yours? Their life less justified that yours?

Secondly, your belief that others should not influence your actions - "do what you want... just don't tell me what i can/can't do" - begs the question. You are presupposing that you have the right to tell your infant child exactly what to do (die). If we agreed that you had this right, then I would have no arguement. We agree that you do not have this right over your 8 year old child, the burden of proof is on you as to why you have it over your 1 week old child.
 
I think what Type B is trying to say (and I could be wrong about this) is that he does not think that it's ethically correct for other people to make the decision about the fate of his child (which is his financial and emotional resposnibility) should this child have severe congenital defects or other conditions that are incompatable with a productive life. He and his partner absolutely have the right to decide not to have a child with Down's (or other abnormalities that can be detected in utero). This is part of the reason why pre-natal screening is important - to inform parents of the condition of the child they are carrying. Obviously, it is not to cure any pathology in utero, since that is currently not possible. On a side note, this is part of the reason why embryology is the biggest pain in the ass first year med school subject. Why should I bother memorizing what gestational week the leg buds develop and the associated pathology when we can't do a damn thing about it? Personally, I would not be willing to carry a Down's child (or a child with other major congential disorder) to term. Once a child is born, this becomes a different issue entirely. With the advances in prenatal screening (like CVS - which is done around week 9-15, I think) there is no reason to carry these children to term if you know you cannot care for them.

The same argument is true of elective abortion. It is unreasonable to demand that other people follow the same morality that you do. It should be the very personal choice of the people having the child, not some fruitcake in the deep South who is convinced that every child is a wanted child.

I don't think that kids with DM 1 need to be exterminated or something. But it should be the parents decision to withold care for a newborn (and not kill a toddler or some other nonsense) if that child has no real chance for a meaningful life.

And, btw, I'm certainly not some fresh out of college freewheeling liberal that medic170 thinks that everyone who disagrees with him must be. I'm in my 30's. Worked in the real world. Blah Blah blah. I still feel that parents have the right to decide what's best for their family (and if that means caring for one of these kids, then they can foot the bill for it too). Once you take neuro next year medic you'll realize that a brainstem alone = basically no brain at all.
 
easy said:
I agree that my misspelling of incompetent is quite ironic.

Now to the points.

I am glad that we agree that a 3 year old is a person who has some understanding of their place in the world, but more importantly that a three year old is a person with rights. What I am curious about is when do you think these rights are conferred? You make inference to the ability to judge person, place and time. How do you decide when this has occurred? And why is this the criteria? Many people with minor head injuries or under the influence of drugs are unaware of person, place and time - has their "personhood" been suspended?

A severely handicapped individual may never come to understand the world in the way you do. You will probably never understand the world in the way that they do. Does that mean that their understanding is less valid than yours? Their life less justified that yours?

Secondly, your belief that others should not influence your actions - "do what you want... just don't tell me what i can/can't do" - begs the question. You are presupposing that you have the right to tell your infant child exactly what to do (die). If we agreed that you had this right, then I would have no arguement. We agree that you do not have this right over your 8 year old child, the burden of proof is on you as to why you have it over your 1 week old child.

the proof is this. the 1 week old child cannot vocalize or think and therefore does not know what his/her potential fate is. an 8 year old child can express himself and his wishes and is cognizant to the fact that life exists and how it works. also at 8, a significant amount of learning and development has gone on. Even at 6 months of life or so there has been significant learning. There IS a gray area, but at 1 week, i don't see this as being an issue. At 1 week, i believe that I have a justified right over my own child as to whether or no to subject him to a life of poor/degraded quality. I, as the guardian, have to act as the advocate for my baby and this is a role that none other should be involved in.
 
Elysium said:
I think what Type B is trying to say (and I could be wrong about this) is that he does not think that it's ethically correct for other people to make the decision about the fate of his child (which is his financial and emotional resposnibility) should this child have severe congenital defects or other conditions that are incompatable with a productive life. He and his partner absolutely have the right to decide not to have a child with Down's (or other abnormalities that can be detected in utero). This is part of the reason why pre-natal screening is important - to inform parents of the condition of the child they are carrying. Obviously, it is not to cure any pathology in utero, since that is currently not possible. On a side note, this is part of the reason why embryology is the biggest pain in the ass first year med school subject. Why should I bother memorizing what gestational week the leg buds develop and the associated pathology when we can't do a damn thing about it? Personally, I would not be willing to carry a Down's child (or a child with other major congential disorder) to term. Once a child is born, this becomes a different issue entirely. With the advances in prenatal screening (like CVS - which is done around week 9-15, I think) there is no reason to carry these children to term if you know you cannot care for them.

The same argument is true of elective abortion. It is unreasonable to demand that other people follow the same morality that you do. It should be the very personal choice of the people having the child, not some fruitcake in the deep South who is convinced that every child is a wanted child.

I don't think that kids with DM 1 need to be exterminated or something. But it should be the parents decision to withold care for a newborn (and not kill a toddler or some other nonsense) if that child has no real chance for a meaningful life.

And, btw, I'm certainly not some fresh out of college freewheeling liberal that medic170 thinks that everyone who disagrees with him must be. I'm in my 30's. Worked in the real world. Blah Blah blah. I still feel that parents have the right to decide what's best for their family (and if that means caring for one of these kids, then they can foot the bill for it too). Once you take neuro next year medic you'll realize that a brainstem alone = basically no brain at all.

excellent post. this is a true-to-thought summary of what i've been trying to say.
 
Elysium said:
Personally, I would not be willing to carry a Down's child (or a child with other major congential disorder) to term. Once a child is born, this becomes a different issue entirely. With the advances in prenatal screening (like CVS - which is done around week 9-15, I think) there is no reason to carry these children to term if you know you cannot care for them.

Just wanted to comment on this..

AFP testing, which is the most common test used for detection of Down's returns an extremely HIGH rate of false positives. I've seen statistics that vary from ~30% to as much as ~70% false positive. Using this test to decide whether or not your child has Down's and aborting based on the results of this test is fallacy. You're more likely to detect Down's by Amnio, which is generally conclusive, or a level 2 or level 3 ultrasound.

CVS is not widely used because it can damage the fetus, alter the condition of the pregnancy, induce abortion, cause birth defects etc etc etc. It is not generally considered a "safe" procedure. Amnio and ultrasounds are much more commonly used and generally considered safer.

I have LESS of an issue with someone choosing not to carry a child to term that has birth defects (not saying I have NO issue - but less of one). But with the limits of modern technology, we only have the tests which have been shown to be effective in "diagnosing" these difficulties in utero. Many, as I've stated before, are either risky or ineffective.
 
typeB-md said:
the proof is this. the 1 week old child cannot vocalize or think and therefore does not know what his/her potential fate is.

I have not read all the pages of this thread, but I did read quite a bit at the beginning and the above point is the one that has bugged me the most about what I think was intended to be the central argument here (we have gone off on a few tangents).

The problem with the point in the above quote is that YOU don't know what that child's fate is either. Ask any NICU doc and they will tell you that it is impossible to tell how an individual baby will do. Generalizations can be made, but many, I repeat, many babies do amazingly better than predicted. Even a 24-weeker can end up perfectly normal (even meeting what I assume are your extremely high standards of "productivity").

I am assuming that most of you responding have never had a child, let alone a child who was premature. This is a great philosophical argument, but I doubt that if your child was born early, a child you felt kicking inside the womb, who looks like YOU, who responds to YOUR voice, that you would find this decision so easy to make. Especially if you knew that there was a chance for a "normal" life.
 
typeB-md said:
i don't really care to hear what you say as you are not even in medical school. please wait a year and try again. i applaud your efforts and motivation.

What a baby! You can't respond intelligently to what people say so you belittle their right to take part in the argument. This has nothing to do with medical school, but since you have the brainpower of a 2 year old, I guess there's no reasoning with you. I don't know how you think that once I cross Tulane's threshold in August, I will suddenly be more qualified to tell you that diabetes mellitus is not something worth killing people over. I have worked with diabetes patients for years, diabetes has personally affected people in my life, and I certainly know enough about DM to know that it's not a birth defect, which you seem to either (a) think it is or (b) lump it into the same category with birth defects. It is clear from your mis-categorization and poorly-developed understanding of this disease that you are no more qualified than I am to discuss it.

If you want to be a baby and ignore my comments because I haven't started medical school yet, go ahead, but it just shows your immaturity, delusions of grandeur and superiority, and inability to maintain an intelligent conversation. If this thread was about medical school study habits, you could tell me that my comments are unhelpful, but it's not. People like you who always have to assume that they are better than the next person, and who cannot welcome all points of view, are not the kind of people who will make good doctors anyway. What are you going to say to your patients? "Go to medical school and then I'll listen to what you tell me about your diet. Until then, shut the **** up."

You seem like a really awful person and an awful doctor-to-be. Good luck in your ultimate goal of eliminating type 1 diabetes from the population. Heil Hitler!
 
Wednesday said:
The problem with the point in the above quote is that YOU don't know what that child's fate is either. Ask any NICU doc and they will tell you that it is impossible to tell how an individual baby will do. Generalizations can be made, but many, I repeat, many babies do amazingly better than predicted. Even a 24-weeker can end up perfectly normal (even meeting what I assume are your extremely high standards of "productivity").

I may not know exactly, but I can know within reason. As an intelligent individual, i can weigh the odds for and against life. I'm not a gambling man, so i probably would choose to err on the side of death. And we can use the "what if" argument for everything/anything.
 
typeB-md said:
I may not know exactly, but I can know within reason. As an intelligent individual, i can weigh the odds for and against life. I'm not a gambling man, so i probably would choose to err on the side of death. And we can use the "what if" argument for everything/anything.

And it would seem that this is the thin red line. You choose to err on the side of death, while others choose life. So I pose 2 questions.

(1) TypeB, being aware of the complications of DM1, CP, please explain why a difficult life, one which may include more pain and medical intervention than the average life, though one which can be entirely productive, happy, and long lived, is one that is not worth living. And please refrain from using an extreme case as an argument, i.e. anencephaly, etc...
(2) Why it is the case that you should be able to decide whether an individual other than yourself should live or die, regardless as to whether or not they are your child.
 
typeB-md said:
i fixed your statement for you. "Italics for Emphasis:
Words may be italicized when they would be stressed if spoken. Italics are especially appropriate if the emphasis would be lost when written"

for more information, please see: http://www.publication.com/aylad/punctuation2.htm

Now onto the actual meaning of your statement...

i was only 1 week premature, and i did not require any extra interventions. had i been born in the woods or the hospital, i would've been A-OK. BUT, even if i had been let to die as i was premature, i would not be here to even discuss this issue, nor ever know any cognizance.. thus, it is moot to even discuss such an issue.

but if i was born with some disability, i would rather have not been born than have to deal with it and never know a normal life.

had you not been born we would have been spared your diatribe...it appears that you post controversial topics just to start flame wars - you last post on another topic about your god like status is laughable - I doubt my 24 week premie would be laughing - your an idiot.

The idea that you should decide who lives or dies is frightening! An in-law had a 24 week premie and she is doing great 2 years later. My daughter will be dc'd from the nicu in the next month or so and she is doing awesome - i can only hope that she finds every happiness in life. Apparently, according to typeb i should have taken her outback and shot her because as the parent i am to look in to the future and determine that her life won't meet some artificial standard of productivity - what a scary joke. As for your continues comments about posters not in med school some how are not as intelligent or capable as you - get from behind the skirt - these people appear much more intelligent than you and you sick sarcastic ramblings.
 
oldManDO2009 said:
had you not been born we would have been spared your diatribe...it appears that you post controversial topics just to start flame wars - you last post on another topic about your god like status is laughable - I doubt my 24 week premie would be laughing - your an idiot.

if you can't use proper grammar, why should i expect you to be able to string proper thoughts together? please take an english class and then come back so i can take you a bit more seriously.
 
Here's my gripe. I don't think we can definately make a judgement that x baby because of x defect or x premie will just live in ultimate torture and not have a 'productive life'. We really don't know which baby that has any of these problems will surely not be productive, happy, able to deal with the pain or whatever. Some kids are fighters, some have it worse than others but they can go against the odds.

Just from my person experience I was born at 22 weeks premature. Basically, the doctor told my parents that I would die but they rushed me to a nearby hospital that has the resources for these things. Studies have shown that statistically, most of these children die or have long-term disabilities and other health problems. I almost died twice and the staff taking care of me called like every hour saying that it was my time to go. I managed to pull through and I don't have any known health problems, some minor but nothing to the extent of what most of premie go through. Anyway, I'm just saying that we really can't judge to say that because this kid has some defect or was born too early that he or she can not live in the world and be active. Just my thoughts.
 
superdavykinz said:
Here's my gripe. I don't think we can definately make a judgement that x baby because of x defect or x premie will just live in ultimate torture and not have a 'productive life'. We really don't know which baby that has any of these problems will surely not be productive, happy, able to deal with the pain or whatever. Some kids are fighters, some have it worse than others but they can go against the odds.

Just from my person experience I was born at 22 weeks premature. Basically, the doctor told my parents that I would die but they rushed me to a nearby hospital that has the resources for these things. Studies have shown that statistically, most of these children die or have long-term disabilities and other health problems. I almost died twice and the staff taking care of me called like every hour saying that it was my time to go. I managed to pull through and I don't have any known health problems, some minor but nothing to the extent of what most of premie go through. Anyway, I'm just saying that we really can't judge to say that because this kid has some defect or was born too early that he or she can not live in the world and be active. Just my thoughts.

so true and look where your at today - i can imagine my daughter making the same comments 20 plus years from now. 👍
 
typeB-md said:
if you can't use proper grammar, why should i expect you to be able to string proper thoughts together? please take an english class and then come back so i can take you a bit more seriously.

Wow, you're so stupid.
 
I think you should all have a chat to a paed and then join us in the real world.
 
So one will have to prove that a baby is really suffering and incapacitated from the misfortune. That will be a very difficult task because there will always be someone who is not familiar with torture or incapacity of any kind, regardless. I myself believe that life is too much of a complex to strictly follow all or none law. People have always been up against nature throughout their history. It’s hard to believe that someone would really be either absolutely passive or stubbornly active. That’s why I am willing to bet that people sometimes do save baby, sometimes don’t. Either way, their action will always be on the basis of thorough judgment and good intention.

My brother, sometimes he is heavy sometimes he is not.
Try this pipe, anyone?
 
typeB-md said:
the proof is this. the 1 week old child cannot vocalize or think and therefore does not know what his/her potential fate is. an 8 year old child can express himself and his wishes and is cognizant to the fact that life exists and how it works. also at 8, a significant amount of learning and development has gone on. Even at 6 months of life or so there has been significant learning. There IS a gray area, but at 1 week, i don't see this as being an issue. At 1 week, i believe that I have a justified right over my own child as to whether or no to subject him to a life of poor/degraded quality. I, as the guardian, have to act as the advocate for my baby and this is a role that none other should be involved in.

Do you have to be acting in the child's "best interest" to claim this right? That is to say, could you ethically allow a "normal" 1 week-old child to die? Or do you need to claim that you are acting in the childs best interest - protecting them from a life of "poor/degraded" quality - to claim this right?
 
easy said:
Do you have to be acting in the child's "best interest" to claim this right? That is to say, could you ethically allow a "normal" 1 week-old child to die? Or do you need to claim that you are acting in the childs best interest - protecting them from a life of "poor/degraded" quality - to claim this right?

i've already made myself very clear. i refuse to keep re-typing the correct stance on this matter. read the thread, this issue is addressed at least 5 times.
 
I lost the train of the discussion somewhere in the 5th page or so, but why did this debate evolve from an ethical question of "Why do we spend resources to save infants with debilitating birth defects?" to a more legalish statement/questionoid "You don't have the right to interfere with my medical decision-making power over my infant"?


The former statement makes for a more compelling debate.
 
typeB-md said:
i've already made myself very clear. i refuse to keep re-typing the correct stance on this matter. read the thread, this issue is addressed at least 5 times.

I have read the thread in its entirety. You have not addressed this. The question is simple. You can respond by cutting and pasting one of the sentences from below if you like:

I think it should be legal for parents to directly cause the death of their one-week-old child for any reason be it handicap, gender, convenience, etc.

I think it should be legal for parents to directly cause the death of their one-week-old child if they are handicapped, but not in other circumstances.

I do not think it should be legal for parents to directly cause the death of their one-week-old child.

Simple question.
 
typeB-md said:
if you can't use proper grammar, why should i expect you to be able to string proper thoughts together? please take an english class and then come back so i can take you a bit more seriously.

To discuss grammar, TypeB, seems a little out of your realm of expertise. Aside from your repeated lack of capitalization, which I believe is much more amateur than an occasional misspelling, you found a way to make several other errors in this two-sentence post. For example, in your first sentence, you use the word "can't" instead of "don't." It is a stretch to assume that this person "could not" have avoided the error. They "did not" use proper grammar, but they most likely "could" have. An important but subtle difference, to be sure.

The first sentence overall is quite awkward. Perhaps it would have been better if you said, "string together proper thoughts" instead of "string proper thoughts together." Here is my general revision:

Why should I expect that your logic is solid when your grammar is poor?

For that matter, your syllogism does not make much sense. You seem to be saying:

1. "A" misspelled a word
2. Misspelling a word is a grammatical error
3. Individuals who make grammatical errors cannot be expected to form logical thoughts
4. Therefore, "A" must not form logical thoughts

Seems step 3 might be where you went wrong here. It also makes you post somewhat ironic, eh?

I'm going to leave the second sentence to you as an exercise.

Seriously though, I wrote this partly for fun and partly to illustrate a point. Do not reject the arguments of others because of a grammar error or because they have not yet begun “medical school.” To do so is a cop-out. Face the argument - if you are truly so intellectually superior then your point should be easy for you to prove. So far you have not done so.
 
There's a hole in my bucket....
*Sings softly*

It's always said that one can be whatever he chooses (or, in this case, imagines himself to be?)

I think we've found the only place where this actually holds true: SDN forums.
Or is it just the internet in general?

😴
 
typeB-md said:
if you can't use proper grammar, why should i expect you to be able to string proper thoughts together? please take an english class and then come back so i can take you a bit more seriously.

OldManDO2009's error involved spelling, not grammar. He had the right word in mind, but he just chose the wrong homonym. You're an idiot. That's the way he meant to spell it. Yes, you're an idiot.
 
easy said:
To discuss grammar, TypeB, seems a little out of your realm of expertise. Aside from your repeated lack of capitalization, which I believe is much more amateur than an occasional misspelling, you found a way to make several other errors in this two-sentence post. For example, in your first sentence, you use the word "can't" instead of "don't." It is a stretch to assume that this person "could not" have avoided the error. They "did not" use proper grammar, but they most likely "could" have. An important but subtle difference, to be sure.

The first sentence overall is quite awkward. Perhaps it would have been better if you said, "string together proper thoughts" instead of "string proper thoughts together." Here is my general revision:

Why should I expect that your logic is solid when your grammar is poor?

For that matter, your syllogism does not make much sense. You seem to be saying:

1. "A" misspelled a word
2. Misspelling a word is a grammatical error
3. Individuals who make grammatical errors cannot be expected to form logical thoughts
4. Therefore, "A" must not form logical thoughts

Seems step 3 might be where you went wrong here. It also makes you post somewhat ironic, eh?

I'm going to leave the second sentence to you as an exercise.

Seriously though, I wrote this partly for fun and partly to illustrate a point. Do not reject the arguments of others because of a grammar error or because they have not yet begun “medical school.” To do so is a cop-out. Face the argument - if you are truly so intellectually superior then your point should be easy for you to prove. So far you have not done so.

The grammar police has arrived.
 
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