Why is healthcare in the US so expensive?

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Call me idealistic but the patient always comes first. Even on a physician-centered forum we should be discussing issues like making the system work for both doctors and patients.

Well you haven't discussed anything in regards to making 'the system' work for doctors - just pointed out how happy the patients are in Germany. See, having a glut of doctors scrambling over each other to see patients for **** money sounds decidely one-sided.

And yes, you are very idealistic. You'll grow out of it.

Unfortunately, a large proportion of people ([1], [2]) between 18 and 64 with private insurance already contribute more than 8% of their income to health care. And premiums keep rising. I'm not saying the German system is ideal but there are things that we can take away from it to reduce the burden that our own citizens face.

Such as? And I'm looking for things that can actually happen in the US. I'm all ears.

Alles klar, Herr Kommissar?

California Über Alles
 
Healthcare is expensive in the USA because we keep applying free-market principles to a system that operates outside the free market. Essentially in a free market, when you increase the supply of a good prices tend to fall. In the free market, demand directs supply. In healthcare, the exact opposite occurs wherein supply directs demand......

....In healthcare, when we increase the amount of treatments, medications, devices we increase the supply which triggers an increase in demand. The demand then rises to swallow the excess. The more beds a hospital has, the more CT scanners they have, the more cancer drugs we have available, the more we tend to use them.

Also, we have perverse system where we reward doctors/healthcare providers/hospitals for doing more. The more we do, the more we pay and hospitals don't have an incentive for making themselves more efficient. If they become more efficient, they lose money.

Lastly, doctors and hospitals need to move in the direction of electronic records/information technology. Some hospitals and doctor groups are entering the electronic age but we have a fragmented electronic system so that your digital medical records at one hospital are not readily accessible to another hospital which you might be admitted to. So we need a national electronic medical record standard. This can make the system more efficient because doctors can collaborate more easily, it can reduce medical errors because papers and charts don't get lost. Additionally, it would be a great boon to researchers because we can more easily understand which treatments work and which don't work.


tl;dr
1) you cannot force a free-market system on healthcare because healthcare operates outside the traditional laws of economics
2) we have a system that rewards hospitals/doctors for doing more. We pay for quantity and not really quality
3) we have to implement a national standard when it comes to electronic medical records and have everyone use it.

Yeah, health insurance company's make nice profits and pharmaceutical company profit handsomely as well. And those should be targets for reform too.
 
I'm not sure who is going to develop new drugs if pharmaceutical companies don't have a financial incentive to do it...
 
The oversimplified answer is because we allow it to be expensive. For-profit insurance companies, for-profit hospitals and the "free" market are just some of the culprits. When your motive is to generate revenue and you have stockholders to report to, what is your incentive in making health care more affordable?

Stick to med school. You haven't the slightest clue of how economics or the supply-and-demand model works. This topic is probably covered in the very first chapter of any economics textbook...what an absurd thing you have just said.

There are reasons why healthcare is so expensive, but the exact cause of which is debated. There are many. The biggest is the bureaucratic nightmare that is the FDA. Another is that insurances are practically state-endorsed monopolies. Insurances also cannot compete across state lines. A smaller market means less competition. The effect of this latter statement is debatable, though. Malpractice suits drive up the cost of healthcare. Drug patents and anti-competition is rampant among pharmaceutical companies. Off the top of my head, I can think of hgh vs. synthetic peptides (ie ghrelin analogues). HGH is incredibly expensive compared to ghrp-6 stacked with a GHRS. Bodybuilders and powerlifters have long known that these peptides are much more affordable and do the job well, but big pharma prefers to keep this a secret. HGH is more profitable. Under a true free market, innovation would resolve this issue. Under the FDA, we will shell out 100x more money for a similar product 🙄 Another example is testosterone replacement therapy, which is totally idiotic in most cases and has created a huge underground market that harms the consumer.

The lack of competition is the problem. Doctors are not competing well enough, drugs are not allowed to compete as they would in a free market, and the price of insurance goes through the roof.

Another huge problem is the extensive litigation if something goes wrong.

I can also attest to unscrupulous doctors and residents. I had an operation for appendicitis several years ago. Every 45 minutes, a resident would come in briefly for a minute or two to "see how you're doing." These visits continued through the entire night, even at 3 and 4 am. They continued despite persistent urges to stop. They were also rude when confronted.

At the time, I thought it was just a case of the residents being too nice. A while later, the bill from the insurance showed hundreds of dollars extra tacked on for these visits. I forget how much they each cost exactly, but it was a considerable amount...er,, WASTE of money. I'm going to go out on a foot here and say that this is rampant all over the country because I went to a big hospital with well-trained staff...in New York City of all places. This is a well-known issue. Over-utilization of things like scans and test forces us to pay more for them. And if a doctor refuses to order tests he knows are probably useless? He leaves himself vulnerable to losing his career.

Most people look at that and say **** it, the insurance is paying that, not me. Right? WRONG. It's laughable to think corporations will absorb that cost. They'll just add it to their spreadsheets, plug in the numbers in, and charge each consumer extra for the unnecessary treatments.


All the problems stem from the same things:

1) Lack of Competition (Get rid of the ****ing FDA please, AKA one of the most corrupt and inefficient allocations of resources in the western hemisphere)
2) Litigation


Healthcare is expensive in the USA because we keep applying free-market principles to a system that operates outside the free market. Essentially in a free market, when you increase the supply of a good prices tend to fall. In the free market, demand directs supply. In healthcare, the exact opposite occurs wherein supply directs demand......

....In healthcare, when we increase the amount of treatments, medications, devices we increase the supply which triggers an increase in demand. The demand then rises to swallow the excess. The more beds a hospital has, the more CT scanners they have, the more cancer drugs we have available, the more we tend to use them.

Also, we have perverse system where we reward doctors/healthcare providers/hospitals for doing more. The more we do, the more we pay and hospitals don't have an incentive for making themselves more efficient. If they become more efficient, they lose money.

Lastly, doctors and hospitals need to move in the direction of electronic records/information technology. Some hospitals and doctor groups are entering the electronic age but we have a fragmented electronic system so that your digital medical records at one hospital are not readily accessible to another hospital which you might be admitted to. So we need a national electronic medical record standard. This can make the system more efficient because doctors can collaborate more easily, it can reduce medical errors because papers and charts don't get lost. Additionally, it would be a great boon to researchers because we can more easily understand which treatments work and which don't work.


tl;dr
1) you cannot force a free-market system on healthcare because healthcare operates outside the traditional laws of economics
2) we have a system that rewards hospitals/doctors for doing more. We pay for quantity and not really quality
3) we have to implement a national standard when it comes to electronic medical records and have everyone use it.

Yeah, health insurance company's make nice profits and pharmaceutical company profit handsomely as well. And those should be targets for reform too.

You misunderstand the word demand in an economic context.
 
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Is that not the whole point of ordering a test? To verify whether or not a specific intervention is warranted? I don't understand under what circumstance a test would be ordered if the treatment plan would not be affected by the outcome either way in the US healthcare system.

My point was that in some countries, an expensive intervention is not available due to its high cost and therefore the expensive diagnostic test is pointless. Here we have access to the expensive emergency treatment and a tort system (malpractice suits) to assure that if the treatment is available and the diagnositic test not performed for an exceedingly rare diagnosis that someone will be called to court to explain why they were negligent in the work-up of this patient.
 
Also, we have perverse system where we reward doctors/healthcare providers/hospitals for doing more. The more we do, the more we pay and hospitals don't have an incentive for making themselves more efficient. If they become more efficient, they lose money.

Lastly, doctors and hospitals need to move in the direction of electronic records/information technology. Some hospitals and doctor groups are entering the electronic age but we have a fragmented electronic system so that your digital medical records at one hospital are not readily accessible to another hospital which you might be admitted to. So we need a national electronic medical record standard. This can make the system more efficient because doctors can collaborate more easily, it can reduce medical errors because papers and charts don't get lost. Additionally, it would be a great boon to researchers because we can more easily understand which treatments work and which don't work.


tl;dr
1) you cannot force a free-market system on healthcare because healthcare operates outside the traditional laws of economics
2) we have a system that rewards hospitals/doctors for doing more. We pay for quantity and not really quality
3) we have to implement a national standard when it comes to electronic medical records and have everyone use it.

Yeah, health insurance company's make nice profits and pharmaceutical company profit handsomely as well. And those should be targets for reform too.

This is fairly in line with the basic conclusions I've come to from the reading I've done on this topic, more so than most other posts in this thread.
 
1. Gain citizenship to Germany
2. Get practically free medical education
3. Enjoy cheap and advanced healthcare for my family (and 1 month off compulsory vacation each year)
3. Gain practice rights in the States
4. Use a remote-control webcam robot and virtually see patients in the States.
5. Enjoy European living on American salary with no debt.

Telemedicine is coming. I've seen neuro evaluate possible head bleeds/CVA in the ER already via "The Cloud" or satellite.

...Don't go into a field that can be tele-outsourced. Diagnostic Rads comes to mind.
 
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Telemedicine is coming. I've seen neurosurg evaluate possible head bleeds in the ER already.

...Don't go into a field that can be tele-outsourced.
It will never happen without tort reform. There is no way lawyers are going to allow the responsible doctor to be off-shore and therefore beyond reach of a lawsuit.
 
It will never happen without tort reform. There is no way lawyers are going to allow the responsible doctor to be off-shore and therefore beyond reach of a lawsuit.

...but tort reform may be coming.

I hope it doesn't happen and I'm not trying to be all "doom and gloom." Anyway, I'm not clairvoyant - so take all things I say about the future with a grain of salt.
 
Healthcare is expensive in the USA because we keep applying free-market principles to a system that operates outside the free market. Essentially in a free market, when you increase the supply of a good prices tend to fall. In the free market, demand directs supply. In healthcare, the exact opposite occurs wherein supply directs demand......

....In healthcare, when we increase the amount of treatments, medications, devices we increase the supply which triggers an increase in demand. The demand then rises to swallow the excess. The more beds a hospital has, the more CT scanners they have, the more cancer drugs we have available, the more we tend to use them.


Also, we have perverse system where we reward doctors/healthcare providers/hospitals for doing more. The more we do, the more we pay and hospitals don't have an incentive for making themselves more efficient. If they become more efficient, they lose money.

Lastly, doctors and hospitals need to move in the direction of electronic records/information technology. Some hospitals and doctor groups are entering the electronic age but we have a fragmented electronic system so that your digital medical records at one hospital are not readily accessible to another hospital which you might be admitted to. So we need a national electronic medical record standard. This can make the system more efficient because doctors can collaborate more easily, it can reduce medical errors because papers and charts don't get lost. Additionally, it would be a great boon to researchers because we can more easily understand which treatments work and which don't work.


tl;dr
1) you cannot force a free-market system on healthcare because healthcare operates outside the traditional laws of economics
2) we have a system that rewards hospitals/doctors for doing more. We pay for quantity and not really quality
3) we have to implement a national standard when it comes to electronic medical records and have everyone use it.

Yeah, health insurance company's make nice profits and pharmaceutical company profit handsomely as well. And those should be targets for reform too.

1. The laws of economics apply perfectly well to health care. Supply does NOT dictate demand. If I build 1,000,000 hospital beds that does not mean that I will fill them. It also does not mean that I need 100,000 MRI machines. If there were 100 million family medicine doctors in the US, wanna guess how much it would cost to get a check-up? The economic difference between "selling healthcare" and selling candy bars is that there is a very high and fixed value for receiving medical treatment and demand currently outweighs supply. If a hospital adds 3,000 beds, I will not suddenly demand a treatment. When a new drug comes out, I dont need to take it. Also supply and demand is essentially all about competition. In a low supply scenario, the customers are competing to get the good. In a high supply scenario, the sellers are fighting to get the buyer to buy from them specifically. It really has nothing to do with the actual quantity of the good being sold (see monopolies). Right now, we are operating in a state where demand is far greater than supply (where demand is healthcare needs of America and supply is healthcare providers). That may be why you think supply dictates demand?

2. Since demand outweighs supply significantly, hospitals have an incredible amount to gain from increased efficiency. Increased efficiency allows for you to serve a larger slice of the patient pie without increasing your overhead (paying more doctors, building a bigger hospital, buying more CT scanners). This means that you can make more money in our free market system. Any elementary business course would teach you that quantity over quality is not necessarily an effective strategy. Same goes for healthcare. If you do a shoddy job but see 1,000 patients per day, you will still go out of business fairly soon. Why? because your patients will talk, so your acquisition of new patients will be poor, and your retention of current patients even poorer. They will leave your practice for the competition. Its like competing solely on price -- it almost never works unless you have a revolutionary way of cutting costs to maintain your profit margin and the quality of your product WHILE still significantly undercutting the competition in price.

3. If you put it on the internet, it will be hacked. A centralized EMR will attract far more attention from hackers than a few small ones here and there.


tl;dr
1. Laws of economics DO apply to healthcare and supply does NOT dictate demand.
2. Quantity over quality is NOT rewarded in the healthcare system and increased efficiency IS rewarded.
3. Beware of hackers

I don't intend to be mean, but perhaps you should do a little more research on economics and the healthcare system before posting information which is so highly flawed. It seems that other people agree with you and thats honestly a little scary.
 
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Telemedicine is coming. I've seen neuro evaluate possible head bleeds/CVA in the ER already via "The Cloud" or satellite.

...Don't go into a field that can be tele-outsourced. Diagnostic Rads comes to mind.

diagnostic rads is one of the only places that can really take over. Dont underestimate the power of touch. [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxnlvwprf_c[/YOUTUBE]
 
1. The laws of economics apply perfectly well to health care. Supply does NOT dictate demand. If I build 1,000,000 hospital beds that does not mean that I will fill them.

This seems logical but it does not hold true in real life. If you build them, they will come. This is why government now requires health care providers to obtain a Certificate of Need which is granted by a gov't agency after the health care provider (usually a hospital system) proves that there is an unmet need in the community and it has been that way for more than 30 years.

This paper from 24 yrs ago illustrates the point:

The populations of New Haven and Boston are demographically similar and receive most of their hospital care in university hospitals, but in 1982 their expenditures per head for inpatient care were $451 and $889, respectively. The 685 400 residents of Boston incurred about $300 million more in hospital expenditures and used 739 more beds than they would have if the use rates for New Haven residents had applied. Most of the extra beds were invested in higher admission rates for medical conditions in which the decision to admit can be discretionary. The overall rates for major surgery were equal, but rates for some individual operations varied widely. These findings indicate that academic standards of care are compatible with widely varying patterns of practice and that medical care costs are not necessarily high in communities served largely by university hospitals. They also emphasise the need for increased attention to the outcome and cost implications of differences in practice styles.
Lancet 1987;329:1185-1189.
 
This seems logical but it does not hold true in real life. If you build them, they will come. This is why government now requires health care providers to obtain a Certificate of Need which is granted by a gov't agency after the health care provider (usually a hospital system) proves that there is an unmet need in the community and it has been that way for more than 30 years.

This paper from 24 yrs ago illustrates the point:

Lancet 1987;329:1185-1189.
That is simply a demonstration that the current demand outstrips current supply, not that the laws of supply and demand don't apply to medicine. Government regulation is in all cases an alteration of supply and demand. This is present in reimbursement rates, training of physicians, FDA approval of drugs and devices, etc, etc. All of these alter the supply vs demand equation, but none of them reverse the roles of supply and demand, and the nature of medicine as a whole does not reverse the roles either, as a previous poster contended.
 
This seems logical but it does not hold true in real life. If you build them, they will come. This is why government now requires health care providers to obtain a Certificate of Need which is granted by a gov't agency after the health care provider (usually a hospital system) proves that there is an unmet need in the community and it has been that way for more than 30 years.

This paper from 24 yrs ago illustrates the point:

Lancet 1987;329:1185-1189.

LizzyM, I always love seeing your posts and reading your input... but in this case I am not sure I completely agree. I may not legally be able to build 1,000,000 hospital beds in 34 states ensuring that the demand outweighs the supply there, but the basic economic principles still hold true. Many markets do have some restrictive legislation, but it does not change their fundamental economic principles. It also seems that there was a different goal in mind in passing certificate of need laws.

http://www.healthwatchusa.org/certificate_of_need.htm

"In 34 states a Certificate of Need (CON) must be obtained before a new healthcare facility is allowed to open. The CON was first started in the mid-1970s in response to a Federal Government mandate to control hospital costs. At that time, Medicare and Medicaid was a fixed amount above a facility's cost, a cost plus system of payment, and wanted to control costs by preventing duplication of services. The CON was enacted by states not because they all independently came to the conclusion that the CON made good economic sense. It was enacted in part in response to Federal pressure and incentives linking CON laws to Medicare and Medicaid payments. At its peak, all states had enacted CON laws.

Over a decade after the Federal government entered and restricted the free market system in healthcare, it finally recognized that the CON was not holding down costs but instead was creating a whole new set of problems all of its own. In response, the Federal government switched to a DRG or fixed cost per diagnosis system of payment. It abandoned its mandates on states having a CON and stopped incentive payments to states which enacted the law. Although, the Federal Government easily reversed its approach to healthcare, states were left with the CON laws firmly embedded into their healthcare economy. Currently, fifteen states have demonstrated the fortitude to unravel and back out and appeal their certificate of need laws, citing the need to increase healthcare competition. Other states are looking at abolishing the CON."
 
The point is that discretionary utilization is discretionary and if the beds aren't available, providers will find an alternative to admission/surgery.

Keeping a cap on discretionary utilization keeps costs down.
 
It appears to be keeping cost of the facility down, but that does not necessarily equate to keeping cost to the consumer down. An artisan shop has lower operating cost, but customers pay more for a limited product than at Walmart which has much higher operating costs, but the customers pay less for their products. There is more to it than that, but the basic principle is what I am trying to demonstrate.

Another big issue that I havent seen addressed yet is waste. I know at the hospital where I used to work, if two patients needed half of the same pill, policy dictates that you must give half a pill to one patient and waste the other half, then repeat for the second. I dont understand policies like this.
 
As an aside, I have worked and lived in multiple European countries so I have some experience as to the efficacy of each system. I have found that the German system reigns supreme because it combines capitalism and socialism. What you essentially have is a system in which everyone pays into but the insurance companies cannot be for-profit and, instead, compete against one another to remain relevant. Each citizen can choose which company to pay into and this creates a market where insurance companies compete against each other to hire more employees and provide better service so they don't go out of business.

I agree. It's absurd that we in America don't look at the German model, and just dismiss Canada/UK as socialists who we could never follow. Sure, gov't may be inefficient. But the Germans do something amazing: they let organization/associations/workers figure things out. They set the rules and parameters in business, including health care. And bring together physicians, hospitals, insurance companies (non-profit!), etc etc...and have them figure it all out and create a system that is efficient for them and the people.

First post. This feels good....
 
I agree. It's absurd that we in America don't look at the German model, and just dismiss Canada/UK as socialists who we could never follow. Sure, gov't may be inefficient. But the Germans do something amazing: they let organization/associations/workers figure things out. They set the rules and parameters in business, including health care. And bring together physicians, hospitals, insurance companies (non-profit!), etc etc...and have them figure it all out and create a system that is efficient for them and the people.

First post. This feels good....
But which sucks for the healthcare employees who are supposed to provide the care......see the posts above.
 
Health care would follow free market dictates if it weren't for the fact that insurance companies are the gatekeepers, and insurance absolutely does not obey market rules and it's certainly not because of overregulation. I'd like to see someone prove this wrong. There was once a time when people could afford their own health care without insurance, but in those days there were many problems that simply couldn't be treated, and in a sense moodle and LizzyM are correct when they say that simply being able to care for these people creates demand. Today society is burdened with the choice of whether to provide insurance for these people or "let them eat cake," but let's be clear here that the issues of the provision of care through the FDA and AAMC etc and the payment of care are entirely different and follow very different rules.
 
Hey guys

I want to chime back in and say that this thread is absolutely amazing and the more discussions we have like this (as premeds and as med students), the better chance we have of actually improving our healthcare system.

With that said, the book that I have read about this topic is called "Money-Driven-Medicine"...It's written by Maggie Mahar and it's a whopping 480 page book, but I think it has over 100 pages of citations and endnotes. This is absolutely necessary because we can then fact check what Maggie Mahar states.

It's a wonderful book but it's a difficult read (not because of bad writing, but because of the complexities of our healthcare system). It's worth looking into if you'd like to learn more about why healthcare is expensive in the USA. Also, the book has great Amazon reviews. Check it out!

http://www.amazon.com/Money-Driven-Medicine-Reason-Health-Costs/dp/006076533X



Also, if you want to learn more about the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act of 2010 (aka the healthcare bill, obamacare, etc...) please check out the book titled "Landmark." It's written by a group of people from the Washington Post and it's completely objective. They go through fifteen chapters explaining the new insurance exchanges, expansion to medicaid, reforming the medicare part D doughnut hole, reforms of Medicare Advantage and how to pay for all of it. Also, they describe Medicare pilot programs that try and change the "fee-for-service" structure we have to try and test out programs that are "pay-for-performance" in nature.

For example, one thing I did not know that I know now (because of "Landmark") is that the reimbursement levels for primary care physicians that take Medicaid Patients will match Medicare!! 😱 👍 That's amazing because now more medicaid patients can see more primary care docs like pediatricians and GP's.......

So this book is an absolute must read if you are applying to medical school and want to know how healthcare reform is changing medicine.

http://www.amazon.com/Landmark-Inside-Americas-Publicaffairs-Reports/dp/B004E3XD3U/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1320175252&sr=1-1
 
Health care would follow free market dictates if it weren't for the fact that insurance companies are the gatekeepers, and insurance absolutely does not obey market rules and it's certainly not because of overregulation. I'd like to see someone prove this wrong. There was once a time when people could afford their own health care without insurance, but in those days there were many problems that simply couldn't be treated, and in a sense moodle and LizzyM are correct when they say that simply being able to care for these people creates demand. Today society is burdened with the choice of whether to provide insurance for these people or "let them eat cake," but let's be clear here that the issues of the provision of care through the FDA and AAMC etc and the payment of care are entirely different and follow very different rules.

Think about it... would industry put the resources into developing a treatment that costs $15,000/month if the only way to pay was out of pocket? The effort is made to develop treatments for previously untreatable chronic diseases because there is a means by which we pool our money and pay for those who need the treatment. The problem becomes when we start stretching the qualifications for getting the treatment such that we over-utilize the treatment because the patient pays little or nothing out of pocket. (see renal dialysis)
 
Health care would follow free market dictates if it weren't for the fact that insurance companies are the gatekeepers, and insurance absolutely does not obey market rules and it's certainly not because of overregulation.

This basically sums up what I was going to write about the healthcare industry not really being a free market as some in this thread seem to assert.

The post here has a pretty good summary of some of the reasons why that is, as well as some general reasons the cost of healthcare has risen so high, if the OP still has interest in finding answers to that question.

For some perspective, I'd recommend reading The Social Transformation of American Medicine... although it ends in the 80s, it offers some context about how our system got to be the way it is today, including its high costs (and touches on Moodle's assertions about hospitals having less incentive than you'd think to be efficient). He has a book out about current reform as well, but I haven't finished it.
 
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Think about it... would industry put the resources into developing a treatment that costs $15,000/month if the only way to pay was out of pocket? The effort is made to develop treatments for previously untreatable chronic diseases because there is a means by which we pool our money and pay for those who need the treatment. The problem becomes when we start stretching the qualifications for getting the treatment such that we over-utilize the treatment because the patient pays little or nothing out of pocket. (see renal dialysis)

Of course the two issues have grown together into one inextricable mess, but I still think we can rework our insurance system without stepping on doctors' or patients' toes.

I think another good example of a similar system is broadband internet and companies like Netflix. As internet bandwidth increases, a whole new world of business models opens up, but in the last decade broadband speeds have stagnated in America and there is now great antagonism between backbone companies, ISPs, and content providers. There is no way the market will solve this problem since telecommunications requires enormous investment and there are physical limits on the amount of competition that a particular area can sustain; you can only fit so many wires under a sidewalk or so many wireless signals within a frequency range. People tend to overlook this fact when they (rightly) complain about government corruption in providing the licenses to lay new wire or build new towers.

The FCC should in theory manage some of these issues, but it is incredibly weak-willed, and so other countries with government mandates for faster internet actually have it, and somehow the companies that provide it still turn a profit! Despite the obvious benefits society gains from better access to utilities like the internet, people still support the 'right' of businesses to settle into these cracks in the market and gobble up loads of cash for providing the worst service they possibly can, and so we have a case in North Carolina in which a municipal internet corporation was created to provide faster, cheaper broadband and a law was passed in response so that this not-for-profit company had to pay the same taxes and fees as its 'competitors' to level the playing field for the telcos, even as it hurt the people of their state.
 
Finally, we've already determined that all those things are a "right". It is illegal for a hospital with emergency care to turn away anyone with a medical emergency. We provide those with insufficient incomes with money to buy food, energy, transportation, etc etc. So yes, those are rights in our society and frankly, they should be. The measure of a society isn't based on how the well-off do, but rather, on how those less fortunate are treated.

There is a difference between a "right" and something that is provided "charitably". If every person has an infinite right to all the healthcare services that our country can provide, healthcare providers are essentially slaves. A similar argument holds for food and your other points - if I am obligated to provide others with my own goods and services, whether it be cash, medicine, food, etc., how is that not thievery?

Of course, I don't want to live in a society that leaves the sick, injured, and homeless destitute and broke, so by all means, let us construct a system that attempts to help those people. There used to be plenty of charitable hospitals, clinics, shelters, etc. but most were wiped out when the government began instituting all these entitlement programs.

Bottom line is that in every economy, infinite demand for anything has at least three effects:

1. Shortages
2. Rationing
3. Price increases

I should point out that rationing needn't be, and isn't always, overt. Rationing of healthcare would probably appear as extended wait times for "non-essential" services. You see this sort of activity in Canada and the UK, where wait-times for many services we would see as emergent, are very long.

I guess my point is that the idea of "fixing" healthcare is never as simple as anyone thinks. Idealism, agenda, and politics tend to reign supreme. Anyone that thinks fixing the problem of high prices in health care markets is easy, clearly doesn't understand it.
 
...but tort reform may be coming.

I hope it doesn't happen and I'm not trying to be all "doom and gloom." Anyway, I'm not clairvoyant - so take all things I say about the future with a grain of salt.

Considering that lawyers have far more influence on the formation of laws than physicians do, I highly doubt that any meaningful changes to medical malpractice is forthcoming.
 
It will never happen without tort reform. There is no way lawyers are going to allow the responsible doctor to be off-shore and therefore beyond reach of a lawsuit.

This exactly. Except it probably isn't coming. It's an issue of averagecitizenwilllistentothis vs pragmatism. With the stupidity of the average citizen, the former will win. The lawyers arguing against TR will say doctors must be held accountable, we cant let them do whatever they want, etc. They have a much easier time arguing on CNN. The pragmatic point of reforming TR is more difficult to explain and can't be stuffed into a Situation Room double-panel debate. And the SCOTUS is unlikely to rule in favor of it.

I don't intend to be mean, but perhaps you should do a little more research on economics and the healthcare system before posting information which is so highly flawed. It seems that other people agree with you and thats honestly a little scary.

Thank you for being the voice of reason in this thread 🙂


Saying some of the points made in here to someone proficient in economics is akin to telling your doctor vaccinations are responsible for autism.


This seems logical but it does not hold true in real life. If you build them, they will come. This is why government now requires health care providers to obtain a Certificate of Need which is granted by a gov't agency after the health care provider (usually a hospital system) proves that there is an unmet need in the community and it has been that way for more than 30 years.

This paper from 24 yrs ago illustrates the point:

Lancet 1987;329:1185-1189.


That doesn't mean supply dictates demand. It means that doctors dictate demand by trivially charging insurances to make more money. That's my hypothesis. There is no reason to believe the laws of economics don't apply to certain markets, just like it's implausible to think the laws of physics don't apply in other galaxies.
 
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But which sucks for the healthcare employees who are supposed to provide the care......see the posts above.

Doctors are by far overpaid in the US compared to other western nations. I don't know how they, (we, hopefully one day 🙂) can justify it. I don't want to bash it as being an easy job or a cakewalk, certainly not by any means. There is an immense amount of training. But through my own experiences I have found very few doctors who put in as many hours as other professions. Most work a few hours a day, have assistants, etc. Doctors is a broad term of course, but I use it here to refer to those that have their own practice and office. That's not really even just my opinion, either. A free market would force doctor wages to equilibrium, and they would certainly be many magnitudes lower than today.

Also, the lack of insurance of many Americans is an issue. Hospitals can't throw sick people out on the street, so they end up staying there costing them thousands of dollars. There would be a huge outcry if they tossed them out on the street. Instead, they pay out of pocket and then distribute the price among the other patients and their insurances.

A major oversight with insurances is that people don't understand the concept of it very well. They know they pay monthly, and most feel that whatever costs they accrue damage the insurance because, hey, they already paid their policies right? I guarantee that at least 4 out of 5 Americans have this insane view of how insurance works. It is sneaky for sure.

The healthcare industry today is one designed with little competition. You are told you need X operation and you get it here. You can't pick your surgeon, you can't read reviews of his past clients, etc. If healthcare is to be a truly free market, it must be treated like any other market in the world. There has to be more information disclosed and doctors must compete. Doctor shopping is a good thing.

What we have now is a state-tolerated monopoly. The robber barons are back.
 
There is no reason to believe the laws of economics don't apply to certain markets, just like it's implausible to think the laws of physics don't apply in other galaxies.

I tend to believe that humans aren't rational, predictable actors, thus this analogy is flawed.
 
I tend to believe that humans aren't rational, predictable actors, thus this analogy is flawed.

Humans do not have to be perfectly rational for economics to be modeled. And most economic models draw on empirical data as well.
 
But through my own experiences I have found very few doctors who put in as many hours as other professions. Most work a few hours a day, have assistants, etc.

We all defer, of course, to your vast personal experience.
 
There is no reason to believe the laws of economics don't apply to certain markets, just like it's implausible to think the laws of physics don't apply in other galaxies.

Are you an actual economist? Have you taken economics since high school? There are absolutely cases in which the 'laws' of economics do not apply to certain markets, and insurance of any kind happens to be one of them. There are other examples as well, mostly ones in which competition and increased demand have a negative effect on supply, like fishing (or oil in the near future). Finally, it's ironic that you would use physics as an example for immutable, inexorable rules, because the rules of physics we use to describe reality most definitely do not apply to everything! Go ahead and try to apply kinematics to an electron in an atom and see what happens. Economics is actually seeing a shift from the increasingly obsolete neoclassical and rational expectations models to much more complex behavioral economics; Homo economicus is not dying, he was never real. Still, even with simpler models it is clear that there are exceptions to the rules.
 
1.US has a large portion of those who do not pay at all... so others pay for them

2. higher cost of living

3. higher reglations, so higher research and development cost for drugs

4. insurance profits and adminstration cost

5. pharm/medical equipment companies making huge profits
 
Are you an actual economist? Have you taken economics since high school? There are absolutely cases in which the 'laws' of economics do not apply to certain markets, and insurance of any kind happens to be one of them. There are other examples as well, mostly ones in which competition and increased demand have a negative effect on supply, like fishing (or oil in the near future). Finally, it's ironic that you would use physics as an example for immutable, inexorable rules, because the rules of physics we use to describe reality most definitely do not apply to everything! Go ahead and try to apply kinematics to an electron in an atom and see what happens. Economics is actually seeing a shift from the increasingly obsolete neoclassical and rational expectations models to much more complex behavioral economics; Homo economicus is not dying, he was never real. Still, even with simpler models it is clear that there are exceptions to the rules.

I want to believe it's a troll, but it has the tone of someone who thinks they know a lot when in fact...you don't know ****.

Please read a basic economics textbook, Capitalism And Freedom by Milton Friedman and something by Hayek.

There are absolutely cases in which the 'laws' of economics do not apply to certain markets, and insurance of any kind happens to be one of them. There are other examples as well, mostly ones in which competition and increased demand have a negative effect on supply, like fishing (or oil in the near future).

Firstly, your statement is like if a scientist says Because this scientific theory is wrong, all science is wrong. Ie if the laws of economics are wrong, change them to be right.

Secondly, I believe you are saying that the laws of economics as we know them today (nothing keynesian here please) don't apply to certain markets. Please cite academic material or statistics that support your point.

Third, natural resources are discussed in depth by the economists I have mentioned.

When you have read those books thoroughly, come back and tell me how stupid you feel.


And AFAIK car insurance and life insurance follow basic economic principles...or are you going to make another claim about that too?

You did mention that insurance companies act as a gatekeeper, which is a huge problem. Doesn't mean get rid of insurance companies, it means ban that practice. Government should support competition.
 
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Humans do not have to be perfectly rational for economics to be modeled. And most economic models draw on empirical data as well.

Then let's focus on "predictable." Are there studies that show that health care in the U.S. track with economic models? Are there other studies that contradict these? If you can point me to these studies, then I will accept that "there is no reason to believe that the laws of economics do not apply to health care" and that my disagreement with your analogy is unfounded.
 
Because government is heavily involved in healthcare and when government gets involved, say goodbye to any sort of efficiency.
Nobody has acknowledged this post, which effectively sums up the problem.

Look at real estate: government gets involved, prices go through the roof.
Look at education: government gets involved, tuition skyrockets.

Healthcare is no different. Want low prices? The government needs to get out and let the free market work its magic.
 
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I think we need more government intervention in healthcare and not less...

Look at all the countries that have lower costs per capita than the US when it comes to healthcare (Canada, the UK, France, Germany, Australia, Japan, etc) http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/OECD042111.cfm

What do these countries have in common? They all have heavy government involvement in healthcare to cap and control costs.

Look, I'm all for a free market. I love capitalism as much as the next guy. But sometimes, the free market fails. Healthcare is an example of that free market failure.

But I do enjoy this conversation and the different angles that people bring up. I think in effect, we all agree on the same principle: that healthcare cannot continue going down business as usual because healthcare inflation is so sky high.
 
I want to believe it's a troll, but it has the tone of someone who thinks they know a lot when in fact...you don't know ****.

Please read a basic economics textbook, Capitalism And Freedom by Milton Friedman and something by Hayek.



Firstly, your statement is like if a scientist says Because this scientific theory is wrong, all science is wrong. Ie if the laws of economics are wrong, change them to be right.

Secondly, I believe you are saying that the laws of economics as we know them today (nothing keynesian here please) don't apply to certain markets. Please cite academic material or statistics that support your point.

Third, natural resources are discussed in depth by the economists I have mentioned.

When you have read those books thoroughly, come back and tell me how stupid you feel.


And AFAIK car insurance and life insurance follow basic economic principles...or are you going to make another claim about that too?

You did mention that insurance companies act as a gatekeeper, which is a huge problem. Doesn't mean get rid of insurance companies, it means ban that practice. Government should support competition.

This is absolutely hilarious. You want me to cite academic sources, but "nothing keynesian." That's like asking someone to prove evolution, but they can only cite the bible. Capitalism and Freedom is not a textbook, by the way, but I have read it and I hate to tell you that Friedman was a countercyclical Keynesian at heart. His monetarist ideas were an extension and a refinement of Keynes's scientific approach to economics, while Hayek was a 'first principles' axiomatic quack, and I hope you realize that great thinkers like him are the health care equivalent of homeopaths and snake oil salesmen.
 
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Firstly, your statement is like if a scientist says Because this scientific theory is wrong, all science is wrong. Ie if the laws of economics are wrong, change them to be right.

I'd like to respond to this in particular. I think you're reading way too much into my statement and, like a lot of free-marketeers, believe I am persecuting your economic religion. In no way did I even imply that economics itself is an impossible field to model. In fact, I think current macroeconomic models work just fine for our current needs. However, the idea that you can ignore all the exceptions to serve the needs of your theory is just the kind of unscientific thinking that you are complaining about here, and that's just what the Austrian school does: they handwave all the problems that capitalism produces and decry any sort of regulation or government action as the source of all our ills. I can't wait to hear about all the crazy Austrians who 'predicted' our current market crash, just as they've predicted all kinds of doom and gloom because the EPA (ostensibly) prevents factories from dumping unfiltered garbage into rivers and the SEC (ostensibly) prevents insider trading and because fraud is illegal.

On the other hand, Friedman was an eminently respectable economist who was rarely guilty of ignoring reality. His criticisms of permanent welfare states were well founded, but unlike crazy Austrians, he still believed the government had a place in the market. Did you know, for example, that he supported a negative income tax to help the poor, because he recognized that they needed help but didn't like the idea that the government knew what they needed better than they did? This idea would have taken the somewhat minimal burden of minimum wage off of businesses and put the onus on the public where it rightly belonged.

You also mentioned that Friedman had addressed natural resources, but I'm not sure if you understand his theory. In the long run, natural resources are an elastic good because innovation will allow substitution of one resource for another, but in the short run prices are highly inelastic as resources are depleted faster than they can be replaced. Oil is a good example, and it is the one for which Friedman is famous for claiming that its supply could increase due to innovation at a time when a dip in the supply of oil and many other resources had created a supply shock (for which he famously accounted in his and Phelps' work on the Phillips curve). However, though he made the important distinction between the physical resource - oil - and the actual good demanded - energy - it is entirely possible and indeed probable that the price of energy itself will increase beyond what is healthy for the rest of the economy before innovation provides equilibration. At the same time, oil is necessary for plastics, and I'm afraid there may be no way to replace these through any amount of innovation. Thus, the fact that one market is blind to its reciprocal relationship with others combined with its profit motive means we all bear the damage of its externalities - a problem almost any economist recognizes as being an issue for correction by the government.

To be perfectly clear: I believe capitalism is the best existing economic system. I also believe that capitalism has a lot wrong with it, and that it is the government's job to account for externalities and market failures that the market cannot and will not address. I do NOT believe that the government knows better than the market what goods should be produced in almost any case, and that any government forays into such areas should require a clear mandate from the public because whatever our system of economics, the ultimate goal is the general good. Finally, I believe that health care and, in particular, insurance, fits all of the aforementioned criteria. If you'd like to know why, I've posted on this issue before. I'd provide you with some actual studies, but something tells me you won't like the way the authors think.
 
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This is absolutely hilarious. You want me to cite academic sources, but "nothing keynesian." That's like asking someone to prove evolution, but they can only cite the bible. Capitalism and Freedom is not a textbook, by the way, but I have read it and I hate to tell you that Friedman was a countercyclical Keynesian at heart. His monetarist ideas were an extension and a refinement of Keynes's scientific approach to economics, while Hayek was a 'first principles' axiomatic quack, and I hope you realize that great thinkers like him are the health care equivalent of homeopaths and snake oil salesmen.

Friedman changed his views over the years but he was never anything close to a Keynesian...

And I am not a keynesian economist. Keynesian theory is the medical equivalent of snake oil salesmen.

I'd like to respond to this in particular. I think you're reading way too much into my statement and, like a lot of free-marketeers, believe I am persecuting your economic religion. In no way did I even imply that economics itself is an impossible field to model. In fact, I think current macroeconomic models work just fine for our current needs. However, the idea that you can ignore all the exceptions to serve the needs of your theory is just the kind of unscientific thinking that you are complaining about here, and that's just what the Austrian school does: they handwave all the problems that capitalism produces and decry any sort of regulation or government action as the source of all our ills. I can't wait to hear about all the crazy Austrians who 'predicted' our current market crash, just as they've predicted all kinds of doom and gloom because the EPA (ostensibly) prevents factories from dumping unfiltered garbage into rivers and the SEC (ostensibly) prevents insider trading and because fraud is illegal.

Only the most hardline free-marketers go after after the things you mentioned. And lol, the EPA does its job poorly and is a mismanaged oversized bureaucracy.

On the other hand, Friedman was an eminently respectable economist who was rarely guilty of ignoring reality. His criticisms of permanent welfare states were well founded, but unlike crazy Austrians, he still believed the government had a place in the market. Did you know, for example, that he supported a negative income tax to help the poor, because he recognized that they needed help but didn't like the idea that the government knew what they needed better than they did? This idea would have taken the somewhat minimal burden of minimum wage off of businesses and put the onus on the public where it rightly belonged.

Right, thank you for trying to teach me something I learned from wikipedia in 9th grade.

You also mentioned that Friedman had addressed natural resources, but I'm not sure if you understand his theory. In the long run, natural resources are an elastic good because innovation will allow substitution of one resource for another, but in the short run prices are highly inelastic as resources are depleted faster than they can be replaced. Oil is a good example, and it is the one for which Friedman is famous for claiming that its supply could increase due to innovation at a time when a dip in the supply of oil and many other resources had created a supply shock (for which he famously accounted in his and Phelps' work on the Phillips curve). However, though he made the important distinction between the physical resource - oil - and the actual good demanded - energy - it is entirely possible and indeed probable that the price of energy itself will increase beyond what is healthy for the rest of the economy before innovation provides equilibration. At the same time, oil is necessary for plastics, and I'm afraid there may be no way to replace these through any amount of innovation. Thus, the fact that one market is blind to its reciprocal relationship with others combined with its profit motive means we all bear the damage of its externalities - a problem almost any economist recognizes as being an issue for correction by the government.

Oil is not a nonrenewable resource anymore. The technology for producing it artificially is on earth, it's just not efficient enough to compete with drilling.

And bioplastics already exist as well. If the supply of oil ever dips below a certain threshold, we'll be ready.

That proves Friedman's point quite well.

To be perfectly clear: I believe capitalism is the best existing economic system. I also believe that capitalism has a lot wrong with it, and that it is the government's job to account for externalities and market failures that the market cannot and will not address. I do NOT believe that the government knows better than the market what goods should be produced in almost any case, and that any government forays into such areas should require a clear mandate from the public because whatever our system of economics, the ultimate goal is the general good. Finally, I believe that health care and, in particular, insurance, fits all of the aforementioned criteria. If you'd like to know why, I've posted on this issue before. I'd provide you with some actual studies, but something tells me you won't like the way the authors think.

Post whatever you want, but I'm sure it's just as ridiculous what you've rehashed here. There is no reason to make such an absurd statement as economics doesn't apply to insurance and healthcare. Economics applies to any good and any market.

The US is an example of a failed healthcare system, but not a capitalist society, which our healthcare industry is anything but.
 
Oil is not a nonrenewable resource anymore. The technology for producing it artificially is on earth, it's just not efficient enough to compete with drilling.

And bioplastics already exist as well. If the supply of oil ever dips below a certain threshold, we'll be ready.

That proves Friedman's point quite well.

Synthetic oil production has been around for decades, and bioplastics are an interesting area of research, but the energy input required to produce either is enormous compared to producing plastic from natural oil. Unless we can produce orders of magnitude more energy / plant material than we do today, we cannot even hope to supply the current and growing demand for plastics and hydrocarbon-derived materials. At a certain point, economics gives way to the reality of our capabilities; yes, 100 years from now we may be able to meet our demand for plastics, but in the mean time there will be millions if not hundreds of millions of deaths and trillions of dollars will be lost because we refuse to enact feed-forward mechanisms into the market. Economics may be reducible to equations, and in the long run things may equilibrate, but to quote a man for whom you seem to have little esteem, "the long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead."
 
I know that this is a growing problem in the US, but something I don't quite understand. I know that it's expensive because of the insurance companies meddling in the middle and medical equipment costing so much... etc (I think). But say you get an MRI in the US, and you are billed $2000. Say your insurance company covers (and therefore pays the hospital on your behalf) $1800.

First of all, why does taking an MRI in the US cost ~20x how much it costs in other countries? (Or maybe not nearly 20x, I have no idea, but still an enormous factor)

Secondly, I have no knowledge when it comes to these things... I know the insurance companies are profiting from the insurance fees they get from the customers (who may never get sick), but are they also profiting elsewhere to make up for the fact that they just spent $1800 on your MRI?

I must be missing some fundamental common sense here... Any insight would be awesome 🙂

Skimmed this thread, so forgive me if this is redundant. If you want a comprehensive but readable analysis of the complex issue of health care costs, try Dr. Thomas Bodenheimer's series "High and Rising Health Costs."

Here is a link to Part 1: http://www.annals.org/content/142/10/847.full

With Google you can find full text versions of Parts 2-4. Dr. Bodenheimer is also one of the authors of Understanding Health Policy, one of the more popular books of its kind.

If you digest this material you should have a decent grasp of why health care in this country is so damned expensive. It's a little more complicated than "Too much Gubmint!" vs. "Not enough Gubmint!"

Enjoy.
 
Most of our health care spending goes to a small percent of the population, and a lot of that spending is (probably) because that small percent wants bleeding edge treatment.

http://www.kff.org/insurance/upload/7670.pdf

"In 2004, almost half of all health care spending was used to treat just 5% of the population."

"Health care experts point to the development and diffusion of medical technology as primary factors in explaining the persistent difference between health spending and overall economic growth, with some arguing that new medical technology may account for about one-half or more of real long-term spending growth."
 
Most of our health care spending goes to a small percent of the population, and a lot of that spending is (probably) because that small percent wants bleeding edge treatment.

http://www.kff.org/insurance/upload/7670.pdf

"In 2004, almost half of all health care spending was used to treat just 5% of the population."

"Health care experts point to the development and diffusion of medical technology as primary factors in explaining the persistent difference between health spending and overall economic growth, with some arguing that new medical technology may account for about one-half or more of real long-term spending growth."

Actually, I believe the greatest proportion of health spending goes towards patients with chronic illness. Some people will obviously utilize the health care system much more than others -- one reason why wellness incentive programs have been gaining traction in recent years.
 
There is a difference between a "right" and something that is provided "charitably". If every person has an infinite right to all the healthcare services that our country can provide, healthcare providers are essentially slaves. A similar argument holds for food and your other points - if I am obligated to provide others with my own goods and services, whether it be cash, medicine, food, etc., how is that not thievery?

This confuses me -- please clarify? Are you suggesting that, under a universal system, doctors would have to work for free, without compensation? Otherwise, I fail to see how such a system would embody "slavery" or "thievery".
 
Most of our health care spending goes to a small percent of the population, and a lot of that spending is (probably) because that small percent wants bleeding edge treatment.

http://www.kff.org/insurance/upload/7670.pdf

"In 2004, almost half of all health care spending was used to treat just 5% of the population."

But of course, and that is why we need "insurance" or some other way to share the cost among ourselves.

Most people consume very little health care per year. Those who have the misfourtune of a serious illness or injury are offered and often use a substantial amount of health care services. By pooling our resources, either as a tax, as in many countries, or by community agreement, as is done by the Amish, or through a commerical insurance company, we are able to pay the costs associated with the care. The further removed we are from the actual cost of the care, the more we consume without concern for the cost. To keep costs down then, we either have our choices restricted or restrict who can get services (or both).
 
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