Why is it that people don't want to go in to Emergency Medicine?

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You said this twice. Don't you think this is a little condescending? I have seen hospitalists get dumped on time and time again by many specialties, but that doesn't mean there aren't gratifying parts to working as a hospitalist.

I'm assuming you're a premed, and I'm not trying to speak for GWDS, but hospitalists have very double-edged jobs. On-off scheduling is nice in theory, but when you're on, it can suck. A lot. Not to mention that EM people generally, stereotypically, don't have the attention span or desire for the kind of work that hospitalists do.

But iirc, GWDS is a derm resident, in which case he probably dislikes the idea of being a hospitalist even more than I do.
 
I'm assuming you're a premed, and I'm not trying to speak for GWDS, but hospitalists have very double-edged jobs. On-off scheduling is nice in theory, but when you're on, it can suck. A lot. Not to mention that EM people generally, stereotypically, don't have the attention span or desire for the kind of work that hospitalists do.

But iirc, GWDS is a derm resident, in which case he probably dislikes the idea of being a hospitalist even more than I do.

Yeah. Work in the ED.

I get that being on for 7 days in a row, often 12-15 hours a day is brutal. But it seemed like GWDS was implying that the lifestyle was not the issue and the actual work of being a hospitalist is just downright degrading. Maybe I read what he wrote wrong...
 
Emergency medicine pays well for only 3-4 years of residency.
 
I've never seen anyone admitted to an ICU without a visit to the ER.
There are enough lazy idiots accepting straight to the floor without evals to see it happen all the time.

I love patients with hangnails, minor lacs and the "infected splinter," that complain about their wait time. I love Fast Track and have a very low thresh hold for sending people their way.
 
There are enough lazy idiots accepting straight to the floor without evals to see it happen all the time.

I love patients with hangnails, minor lacs and the "infected splinter," that complain about their wait time. I love Fast Track and have a very low thresh hold for sending people their way.

:laugh:
 
But it seemed like GWDS was implying that the lifestyle was not the issue and the actual work of being a hospitalist is just downright degrading. Maybe I read what he wrote wrong...

It's not degrading at all, it's just absolutely insufferable work.
 
It's not degrading at all, it's just absolutely insufferable work.

Care to elaborate. I personally would rather be a hospitalist working 7 on/7 off making 200K than a dermatologist working 35 hours/week making 400K. I think everyone has a different definition of insufferable.
 
Care to elaborate. I personally would rather be a hospitalist working 7 on/7 off making 200K than a dermatologist working 35 hours/week making 400K. I think everyone has a different definition of insufferable.

You do realize 7/7 is essencially 40+ hours a week right? So more work for half the money. Not saying I wouldn't do it but I'd have to like my job.


Edit: OK REALLY like my Job.
 
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You do realize 7/7 is essencially 40+ hours a week right? So more work for half the money. Not saying I wouldn't do it but I'd have to like my job.

Yes, to the bolded.

This is exactly what I am saying. I think it would be insufferable to not be enjoying your job (obviously there are degrees of enjoyment, work is work).
 
Yes, to the bolded.

This is exactly what I am saying. I think it would be insufferable to not be enjoying your job (obviously there are degrees of enjoyment, work is work).

Haha, which is fair. To each his own. I would find looking at skin complaints all day insufferable. Of all the types of pts we see at the clinic, I find the skin ones the most boring. It's usually chronic care of some 16 y/o girl's acne. There's not much you can do (which is why she keeps coming back), so we just try another cream or another antibiotic. It's boring.

The ED, despite having lots of BS pts, at least every case is new. Sure, most end up being BS, but at least you have to do some investigative work to make sure it really is BS. That kind of stuff is kind of fun, IMO.
 
I can say that EM is my top consideration right now. As a premed, I realize that this doesn't mean much, but I've been exposed to the ED for three years. I am familiar with its underbelly.

Why do EM?
- Prefer physician over surgery. This should be obvious.
- Residency is three years. There's no need to go to Hopkins or to gun for a fellowship.
- Shift work + not being on call. For those who say the 11 PM - 7 AM shift gets boring after awhile, what about being on call during those hours in Critical Care or Surgery? You realize much of medicine has ****ty hours to some extent.
- Variety over specialization. Some people don't want to focus on looking at the same set of problems over and over.
- Drama. Some people like drama and the high-energy environment of the ED. It doesn't mean they like the nonsense, but to say that 100% of ED visits and patients are annoying is off base.
- Some control of the drama. If you really like life-saving situations, you can work in a Level 1 Trauma center. If you don't, go to a Level 3 center and do emergency primary care.
 
The ED, despite having lots of BS pts, at least every case is new.

I think most EM docs would say that the plurality of cases are the same; i.e., they run into the same types of cases most of the time. I'd probably rephrase your comment and say that the variety of pathologies and typical cases and ED doc could deal is greater than the other specialties.

Sure, most end up being BS, but at least you have to do some investigative work to make sure it really is BS. That kind of stuff is kind of fun, IMO.

I agree.
 
I think most EM docs would say that the plurality of cases are the same; i.e., they run into the same types of cases most of the time. I'd probably rephrase your comment and say that the variety of pathologies and typical cases and ED doc could deal is greater than the other specialties.



I agree.

I worked in the ED for awhile and worked EMS. Yes, the majority of cases are "the same" but that's what makes it bearable in terms of intensity. Every case requires investigative work to ensure you're not missing something. Further, a lot of the "same old" cases require a different sort of attention and require specific remedies to not have that person come back over and over. If EVERY case were entirely new, it would be the worst day of an EM doc's life! I also sort of enjoy dealing with drunk people and psych pts. I worked psych before med school, so I guess I find them sort of fun. I think the key is that too many healthcare professionals get on their high horse around those people. That's not who they want you to be. They want to be able to trust you. Sometimes, that requires you get on their level. If their vernacular is the f*** bomb, maybe you need to talk a little closer to their language than in some scientific prose that makes you sound all high and mighty (and WAAAAY outa touch).
 
I worked in the ED for awhile and worked EMS. Yes, the majority of cases are "the same" but that's what makes it bearable in terms of intensity. Every case requires investigative work to ensure you're not missing something. Further, a lot of the "same old" cases require a different sort of attention and require specific remedies to not have that person come back over and over. If EVERY case were entirely new, it would be the worst day of an EM doc's life! I also sort of enjoy dealing with drunk people and psych pts. I worked psych before med school, so I guess I find them sort of fun. I think the key is that too many healthcare professionals get on their high horse around those people. That's not who they want you to be. They want to be able to trust you. Sometimes, that requires you get on their level. If their vernacular is the f*** bomb, maybe you need to talk a little closer to their language than in some scientific prose that makes you sound all high and mighty (and WAAAAY outa touch).
It might at least get you better feedback on the required surveys to be sent to the patients.
 
Haha, which is fair. To each his own. I would find looking at skin complaints all day insufferable. Of all the types of pts we see at the clinic, I find the skin ones the most boring. It's usually chronic care of some 16 y/o girl's acne. There's not much you can do (which is why she keeps coming back), so we just try another cream or another antibiotic. It's boring.

The ED, despite having lots of BS pts, at least every case is new. Sure, most end up being BS, but at least you have to do some investigative work to make sure it really is BS. That kind of stuff is kind of fun, IMO.

I could care less about whether other people enjoy derm, that's fine. But hospitalist medicine is about 60% social work, 35% clerical/secretarial work, and 5% medicine. Even the most cynical derm hater can't reasonably claim that derm isn't at least 6% medicine.
 
I could care less about whether other people enjoy derm, that's fine. But hospitalist medicine is about 60% social work, 35% clerical/secretarial work, and 5% medicine. Even the most cynical derm hater can't reasonably claim that derm isn't at least 6% medicine.

I wouldn't really want to do either, but being as the derm lifestyle is nicer, I would choose derm over hospitalist work -- because, hey, if you're going to hate your job, might as well only work 9-5!

And derm is mostly medicine; it just seems a bit restricted in its scope. Of course, that's true of most specialties.
 
I'm also using the B.S. distinction too. I mean BLS:

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/physicians-and-surgeons.htm

What Physicians and Surgeons Do
Physicians and surgeons diagnose and treat injuries and illnesses in patients. Physicians examine patients, take medical histories, prescribe medications, and order, perform, and interpret diagnostic tests. Surgeons operate on patients to treat injuries, such as broken bones; diseases, such as cancerous tumors; and deformities, such as cleft palates.
 
And derm is mostly medicine; it just seems a bit restricted in its scope. Of course, that's true of most specialties.

I think one of the big branch points in decision making for choosing a specialty (aside from surgical vs nonsurgical) is how narrow you want your focus to be. Things like Derm/GI/Cards are obviously pretty narrow, whereas IM (without specialization), EM, FM, and Peds are obviously much broader. I'd be lying if I said part of me didn't wish I'd be able to stay current in the management/treatment of the myriad medical conditions we learn about in medical school, but it's the inevitable price you pay for finding something specific that you really enjoy.
 
Really? Superficial knowledge? No one codes better than an ER doc.

Pretty bold statement for a pre-med that doesn't know anything.
Superficial knowledge in comparison to those in different specialties. You simply don't do a 3 year residency and have as in depth knowledge in an area as any other field. Yes, it's true that say, a psychiatrist, wouldn't have as broad knowledge in medicine as an ED physician. The argument I'm making is that I would prefer to be an expert at a field than be a jack of all trades. Also, because ED physicians may code best, it doesn't mean that their training isn't meant to be broad based. You can't use one example and say that their field's training is meant to be in-depth.

You're a pre-med too, and how do you know I don't know anything? Because you disagree?
 
Superficial knowledge in comparison to those in different specialties. You simply don't do a 3 year residency and have as in depth knowledge in an area as any other field. Yes, it's true that say, a psychiatrist, wouldn't have as broad knowledge in medicine as an ED physician. The argument I'm making is that I would prefer to be an expert at a field than be a jack of all trades. Also, because ED physicians may code best, it doesn't mean that their training isn't meant to be broad based. You can't use one example and say that their field's training is meant to be in-depth.

You're a pre-med too, and how do you know I don't know anything? Because you disagree?

Seriously. I love me some EM, but second best in every field? lolz.
 
Superficial knowledge in comparison to those in different specialties. You simply don't do a 3 year residency and have as in depth knowledge in an area as any other field. Yes, it's true that say, a psychiatrist, wouldn't have as broad knowledge in medicine as an ED physician. The argument I'm making is that I would prefer to be an expert at a field than be a jack of all trades. Also, because ED physicians may code best, it doesn't mean that their training isn't meant to be broad based. You can't use one example and say that their field's training is meant to be in-depth.

You're a pre-med too, and how do you know I don't know anything? Because you disagree?

Except that 3 years of training (or the length of training in any specialty) is for minimal competence. Learning doesn't stop there and for good reason. I would venture to say that the vast amount of novel pathology seen by EPs as attendings is just as crucial to their knowledge base as what is learned during residency. As for the length of training, I think it goes without saying that the scope can be SO broad that longer residencies just wouldn't be as effective in learning everything, rather the focus is more on being able to handle what you haven't seen just as proficiently as what you have.

Second best in every field is a stretch tho
 
Except that 3 years of training (or the length of training in any specialty) is for minimal competence. Learning doesn't stop there and for good reason. I would venture to say that the vast amount of novel pathology seen by EPs as attendings is just as crucial to their knowledge base as what is learned during residency. As for the length of training, I think it goes without saying that the scope can be SO broad that longer residencies just wouldn't be as effective in learning everything, rather the focus is more on being able to handle what you haven't seen just as proficiently as what you have.

Second best in every field is a stretch tho

From what I hear, EM docs are known for being excellent diagnosticians. They are good at treating minor things but much of what they are doing is putting a bandaid on it and sending it to the right person for definitive care. They are an extension of the EMS system.
 
Really? Superficial knowledge? No one codes better than an ER doc.
Did you have data to support this claim?

From what I hear, EM docs are known for being excellent diagnosticians. They are good at treating minor things but much of what they are doing is putting a bandaid on it and sending it to the right person for definitive care. They are an extension of the EMS system.
I'd give that one to something cerebral like rheumatology or neurology. EM is like surgery. You don't have to know what it is, just what to do.
 
Except that 3 years of training (or the length of training in any specialty) is for minimal competence. Learning doesn't stop there and for good reason. I would venture to say that the vast amount of novel pathology seen by EPs as attendings is just as crucial to their knowledge base as what is learned during residency. As for the length of training, I think it goes without saying that the scope can be SO broad that longer residencies just wouldn't be as effective in learning everything, rather the focus is more on being able to handle what you haven't seen just as proficiently as what you have.

Second best in every field is a stretch tho
I don't see how this is so controversial to you and a few other people. Family Medicine has a much broader knowledge than IM, Peds or OB/Gyn individually. Nobody would argue that a family physician is as much of an expert in each of those 3 fields as someone that pursued a residency in a specific field, and conversely, nobody would expect a peds doctor to have as much knowledge on OB/Gyn as a family physician does. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be an ED physician or having a knowledge base that's broad. Some people prefer to be experts in a narrow range of a field than have the broad base knowledge. Now if you want to believe that being an ED physician means you'll know how to diagnose neurological conditions as well as a neurologist or allergies as an allergist, be my guest, but you're wrong.
 
Interestingly enough emergency med was the third highest "most overall satisfied" group of physicians in the medscape 2013 survey.
 
I don't see how this is so controversial to you and a few other people. Family Medicine has a much broader knowledge than IM, Peds or OB/Gyn individually. Nobody would argue that a family physician is as much of an expert in each of those 3 fields as someone that pursued a residency in a specific field, and conversely, nobody would expect a peds doctor to have as much knowledge on OB/Gyn as a family physician does. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be an ED physician or having a knowledge base that's broad. Some people prefer to be experts in a narrow range of a field than have the broad base knowledge. Now if you want to believe that being an ED physician means you'll know how to diagnose neurological conditions as well as a neurologist or allergies as an allergist, be my guest, but you're wrong.

I think that this is a key point. I am very interested in EM, but anyone considering the field should understand that, when dealing with a specialist in their area of expertise, the majority of the time the specialist will likely know more, at least regarding that particular area of medicine (there are times where this isn't the case, but these are exceptions. Rare ones.). That being said, as an EP you will be trained to manage the acute presentations that might occur in a broad variety of specialties. So while the specialist in the ED might very well be the best doctor for whatever patient they happen to be consulting on, they might very well have no idea have to treat the febrile peds patient next door, the pregnant vaginal bleeder across the hall, or the actively-trying-to-die trauma patient down the way - and would be absolutely lost trying to handle them all at once.

This is the place of the EP. If you take the knowledge base of an EP in a particular field and compare it the knowledge base of a specialist in that field, the specialist will almost always win out. I think that's where a bit of disdain for emergency medicine as a whole comes from. Where the EP wins is when their practical knowledge base regarding medicine as a whole is taken into consideration, as well as their ability to manage the flow of a busy, overcrowded emergency department. While a specialist is really good at their particular area of medicine that they deal with day in and day out, EPs must be ready to manage any acute problem at any time. There is a trade-off, of course - specialists are in fact "smarter" in their area of expertise, but EPs must learn and retain a broader, practical knowledge of medicine as a whole. Not necessarily in depth, mind you, but in depth enough to manage a case and in many cases begin treatment.

Each cog has it's place in the machine. Those of us interested in specializing must realize that by delving deeply into a limited field of medicine we forgo the opportunity to practice the rest. A urologist, for example, will not help you with your chest pain or unilateral weakness. A CT surgeon will not help you with your DKA. On the other hand, those of us interested in a field like EM must realize that the residency does not teach you the deepest secrets of each specialty, but will make you comfortably able to handle a wide variety of emergent (and nonemergent) issues. I've heard it said that EPs only know about 70% of any given specialist's knowledge base - it's that 30% that makes them a specialist. Whether or not you agree with the exact percentage, the idea remains the same. Everyone plays a different role. Some will want to be really good at a small number of things, while others want to be competent at a large number of things. Each has it's place, and whichever option you choose, there's no need to justify your choice by dissing the other guys, whomever they may be.
 
Did you have data to support this claim?

No data. Just making an assumption 🙂scared🙂 based on the fact that dying people usually go to an ER first, which means more experience actually running the ACLS algorithm.

I suppose ICUs where people are regularly touch-and-go would be a good place to hone this skill, as well.
 
No data. Just making an assumption 🙂scared🙂 based on the fact that dying people usually go to an ER first, which means more experience actually running the ACLS algorithm.

I suppose ICUs where people are regularly touch-and-go would be a good place to hone this skill, as well.
Our ER docs are on the code team, so they probably do the most codes at my hospital, but I would say that the code team has the most experience. It's not that common for patients to show up in the ED and start coding. It does happen, yes, but most people who are stable enough to make it to the ED at all will probably make it to the ICU/cath lab as well.
 
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