why is ORTHO and RADs so competitive?

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keith77

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i really don't understand it. those are becoming the top 2 specialties. i know in rads at least u get a nice lifestyle for lotsa money, but why ortho...? what's the appeal with steel and bones?

i'm also hearing about people goin from ortho to rads and rads to ortho...again, what's the deal?

everyone i know is going into those two, with a sprinkle in optho and some in ENT.

anyone have any insight into this?
 
Ortho can be $2million/year if you are in the right area, and work like a FIEND. Otherwise, you have to settle for $500K. Maybe a little off, but, still, the hardcore dollars are there.

Moreover, who does ortho? Jocks who've gotten into med school...ie, studs. It's power, too. Ortho are the fighter pilots of medicine. You have to take their $#!+, because, who else can do their job?

A third point is that it is on a gross scale, not microscopic, and you see real changes - people walk again, they can move shoulders, Gramma is out of the wheelchair!

These are generalizations, of course, but there's some substance.
 
$2,000,000...not very likely, but $600,000-$800,000 is very possible, with about $400,000 being average. Unfortunately, they also pay on average $150,000 a year in malpractice, by far the worst out there. Otherwise, I think you did a pretty good job with your generalization.

I am going to into ortho for many of those reasons. I have worked in construction much of my life and really love the biomechanical aspects of ortho. Let's face, saws and hammers rock. I can fix something and see immediate results. Put a new knee in and someone walks pain free in two weeks, put a plate on a fracture and they are good to go in 6 weeks, replace a fractured hip and they are walking in two days. We don't have to deal with the 400 lb patient that smokes and lives at McDonalds, but can't figure out why their blood sugar and cholesterol is greater than their weight.

One other nice thing about ortho is that it is probably the most specialized area in medicine. In med school, you learn a little about almost every aspect of medicine, but it is rare to touch ortho. A FP may cast a simple non-displaced radius fracture, but they won't touch anything else. The fighter pilot analagy fits pretty well. So does the jock generalizion...ortho guys are usually pretty cool to hang out with. There are many other reasons why ortho rocks, but I am sick of typing.
 
i thought ob/gyn had the highest malpractice rates...and a much lower salary base.
 
Maybe it's a regional thing, but I've always heard from other physicians and surgeons that orthopods were considered the "dumb" doctors. One theory I've heard is that ortho residencies take really bright med students and gradually dumb them down during residency so that by the end all they can basically do is ortho operations and very little else of clinical medicine (diagnosis and management).

I'll have to respectfully disagree with your analogy of orthopods being the
"fighter pilots" of medicine, for that title goes to neuro and cardiac surgeons.
They are the ones who literally hold life in their hands on a daily basis and operate with arguably the two most vital organs of the body. I mean come on, anybody with above average strength and some intelligence could be taught how to do most ortho procedures.
 
i agree with the last comment - at my school most of the top students were gunning for ortho and then in the clinical years realized that ortho docs loose alot of there foundational medical knowledge. Most of them have decided to go for some of the med specialties like heme/onc and cards. Just go on ortho rounds and you'll see - "wiggle you toes, okay next patient...".
 
There are plenty of jokes out there about dump pods...ugh, broke bone, me fix...take the brightest, turn them into the dumbest...how do you hide a buck from an orthopod? hide it in a book...I can go on forever. The simple fact is that they are jokes. You can't suddenly turn someone who scores 240+ on every step of his boards into an idiot by doing ortho. Pods could easily manage all the basic medical problems their patients experience, but they are so damn busy operating, that they choose not to do so.

As for the fighter pilot analagy Appollyon put out, I think it does fit. Pods are the only ones out there that can do what they do. Yes, neurosurgeons and CTS also fall into that category. You argument that anyone can be taught to do orthpaedic procedures goes for any surgical specialty, including CTS and neuro. Any neurosurgeon, could have become a CTS, or a pod and and any pod could have become a neurosurgeon, or a CTS. They were all in the top 10-15% of their class and chose the field they enjoyed most.

By the way, vital organ comment doesn't only include your CTS and neurosurgeon. Someone will die a hell of a lot faster from a nasty open-book pelvis than they will from a chronically blocked anterior descending. Ask you neurosurgeon, or your CTS to put that back together when embolization isn't and option.
 
oh yeah...the "dumbing down" phenomenon happens to any sub-specialist. When I was on OB/Gyn last year my attending couldn't read his pre-op EKGs and asked me how to tell the difference between the different causes of anemia when one of his patients was anemic.

Ask your CTS to do a good musculoskeletal and neurologic exam, or ask you neurosurgeon to read a belly ct. Hey wait, the derm guys are supposed to be really smart, let's see if they can manage someone with low urine output.
 
I think Ortho gets the reputation for being such bad clinicians because they become so flip about patient care, above and beyond the other surgical disciplines. Most make it clear that they have no interest in anything resembling medical or complex post-operative management, & honestly patients with any signifgant injury or comorbidity are quite often safer under others care. After their PGY-1 year, you can clearly see a decline in their patient management skills because they get further away from using them with any frequency.
 
Originally posted by droliver
I think Ortho gets the reputation for being such bad clinicians because they become so flip about patient care, above and beyond the other surgical disciplines. Most make it clear that they have no interest in anything resembling medical or complex post-operative management, & honestly patients with any signifgant injury or comorbidity are quite often safer under others care. After their PGY-1 year, you can clearly see a decline in their patient management skills because they get further away from using them with any frequency.

This is true everywhere I have been. The sad thing is that a good percentage of these patients have comorbidities that need to be addressed before and immediately after surgery which end up prolonging their hospital stays. The ortho attendings where I train actively encourage dumps to medicine on post-op hips as quickly as transfer from PACU to the medicine or telemetry units...without a stay on a surgical floor (and continue to act as consultants). Now, if one of their patients slips into a-fib....we (as internists) are obligated to take them on rather than serve as consultants. Its a sick system because it allows the subspecialist to claim ignorance and pass simple problems on to a service already burdened with the most complex problems in the hospital. The sad thing is that in their training, unlike esteemed general surgeons, these guys get no encouragement or instruction to learn basic medicine, which is the foundation for all that we do as physicians. As a result, orthopods are left without training to handle medical issues and be it out of a lack of confidence with their knowledge. a frank lack of understanding of basic medical principles and/or a disinterest in patient welfare beyond their torn ACL, have a very low threshold with which to dump patients. Anyways, my favorite excuse for a dump..."this patient has diabetes and a blood sugar of 250....he needs to be on a medicine service to manage his out of control diabetes"...nuff said
 
Hi everybody!!!

Actually my husband is in Ortho residency and I am the person who really knows how hard he worked to obtain that. It easy to talk when you are not there. Anyway, to gets in Ortho you has to be the top of your class, do research, AOA, hardworking and I think that if they maintain their doctor's spirit in caring about their patients they win everything with all the efforts made. It depends of each person because not all are the same and for me ortho is amazing! in terms of results you see in your patients. Not always everything is money, but after being so many years working so hard they really win that.
 
psych,
from a spouses perspective, what is ortho residency like? are u a resident too or in med school? just curious if it's v.difficult. susan
 
Originally posted by psychiatry
Anyway, to gets in Ortho you has to be the top of your class, do research, AOA, hardworking and I think that if they maintain their doctor's spirit in caring about their patients they win everything with all the efforts made.

Well, you really don't have to have any of the above to match into orthopedics.

Rather, it depends on where you want to go. In my experience, students who have matched into orthopedics are in the top 25% of their classes, +/- AOA, and have USMLEs in the 230s. That's an accomplishment, but not a stretch.

As far as residency goes, I know that where I train, the ortho residents get slammed. When I've had a mutual patient, they round at like 5:00am and stay pretty late -- 8:00 or 9:00 pm. When they're on call, they basically get no sleep because of trauma and ER hits.

I think they probably deserve what they earn.

Either way, I'd go to an orthopedic spine surgeon rather than a neurosurgeon...but that's my gig....
 
Hello!

Actually I am a psych resident and during the first year is hard to share a lot of time. Actually I am more relax and I make the balance work. Is part of all!!
Good Luck!🙂
 
ortho doesnt get paid much more than rads, in fact, in many cases they make as much or even more than ortho...consider the salary per hour really worked.....
 
to quote my cousin, who is a 'pod........"i'm not operating on his potassium level, get my patient down here!"

god i love ortho!
 
So which type of physician is regarded as having the most knowledge/ability in terms of overall patient care? I've heard it's a general surgeon who has also done a critical care fellowship, since they have been trained to operate on all sorts of problems as well as manage postop patients effectively through their critical care fellowship.
 
Originally posted by Apollyon
Ortho are the fighter pilots of medicine. You have to take their $#!+, because, who else can do their job?
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I got a lot of laughs out of this comment. Granted, orthopedics has a reputation for being competative, and they are quite specialized, but they are certainly not the "fighter pilots" of medicine. I have to agree with SomeFakeName that CT and neurosurg have that reputation if anyone does. And let me ask you this: are nephrologists also some sort of "fighter pilots" because no one else can "do their job" and figure out the kidney? Apollyn and Ortho2003, you can keep dreaming that you guys are some kind of top guns, but the only people that view orthopods as fighter pilots are orthopods themselves. There is a reason that there are so many jokes about dumb orthopods, and it is not because people think of them as fighter pilots.
 
While we're on this topic of surgical specialties, what do you guys think is the most difficult surgical specialty to practice day in and day out? I've been told it is pediatric cardiac surgery due to the fact that a baby's heart is so small and the operations are so delicate and require tremendous preoperative planning that you really have to be technically gifted to produce consistently good results. Although most surgical residents can be trained to do adult CT surgery, I think you really need to have talent that cannot be learned to be a pediatric/congenital heart surgeon. Not to mention the much added stress of operating on a baby. There is also a case to be made about pediatric neurosurgery for the same reasons as above.
 
In my experience, people that make jokes about other people typically do it out of their own insecurities and jealousy...not fact.

Does anyone out there really think every blonde female is an ignorant slut?
 
Ortho guys are "fighter pilots" because no one else can do their job? I guess an orthopedic surgeon can do every single specialty then... If I ever have any heart problems, screw the cardiologist... I'll go straight to my friendly neighborhood fighter pilot. While I'm there, he can evaluate my cancer (oncologists are just lowly mechanics who fix the plane's wheels after all)... Oh, and if I need a liver transplant or an SPK, I can get that taken care of too. After all, transplant surgeons are just the guys that fill the planes up with gas. lol...
 
Originally posted by ortho2003
In my experience, people that make jokes about other people typically do it out of their own insecurities and jealousy...not fact.

Does anyone out there really think every blonde female is an ignorant slut?

In my experience, people make jokes because they're funny. Maybe you make jokes when you're insecure and jealous. And jokes about blondes and orthopods are funny because the point out generalizations that have some element of truth to them. Certainly no one thinks that every blonde is an "ignorant slut", and no one thinks that every orthopod is a dumb jock. But there are enough ditzy blondes and meathead orthopods out there to make these jokes funny. And I would guess that most people don't equate blonde hair with the intellect of a nuclear physicist, just as most poeple don't think of orthopods as "the fighter pilots of medicine." Are all orthopods as delusional as you?
 
Originally posted by Celiac Plexus
Ortho guys are "fighter pilots" because no one else can do their job? I guess an orthopedic surgeon can do every single specialty then... If I ever have any heart problems, screw the cardiologist... I'll go straight to my friendly neighborhood fighter pilot. While I'm there, he can evaluate my cancer (oncologists are just lowly mechanics who fix the plane's wheels after all)... Oh, and if I need a liver transplant or an SPK, I can get that taken care of too. After all, transplant surgeons are just the guys that fill the planes up with gas. lol...

Hmm, seems nobody has thought of this yet. There aren't just pilots and technicians. There are other kinds of pilots. Maybe the orthopods are the fighter pilots, maybe the neurosurgeons are the bomber pilots, maybe the cardiothoracic surgeon is the Transport pilot, maybe the cardiologist is the American Airlines passenger pilot. Heck, the oncologist might even be the Fedex cargo plane pilot. It is not mutually exclusive. Just another perspective. We don't always have to disagree.😉
 
Dune,

If you would take a breath and read through the posts again, you will see that I didn't bring out the fighter pilot analagy. I agreed with it in that no one else in medicine can do what pods do. That doesn't mean that no one else could be trained to do it. I also said that the same goes for CTS and neurosurgery. Any neurosurgeon could have been a CTS or pod and any pod could have become a CTS or neurosurgeon.

So, in answer to your question, I don't know about other pods, but I don't think I have any problems with delusions and I don't think I posted anything on here to make it seem as though I walk on water. However, I have seen a few things posted in this thread that make me think you either have some major insecurities/ pod-envy, or you are just a prick. Feel free to let me know which one.
 
Ortho2003,

I apologize if my posts offended you. I didn't mean to come off as a prick, and I certainly don't have any "pod envy." My comment regarding your delusion was in reference to your belief that jokes about dumb orthopods are rooted in the jealousies and insecurities of non-pods. I don't know whether you think you walk on water.

I suppose what bothers me most about your posts is the connotation that everyone except neuro and CT surgeons wishes they could be orthopods. I'm glad you are enthusiastic about your chosen field, but just because orthopedics is a somewhat competative match does not mean that everyone envies you. It also doesn't mean that anyone who interacts with an orthopod has to "take their $#!+." (Yes, I know that Appolyon posted that comment - I hope you don't agree with it.) By the way, have you even matched into ortho, or are you applying this year? It would be quite ironic if you didn't match and suddenly you were the one with "pod-envy".

Anyway, I'm glad to see that you think that the fighter pilot anology only fits in that orthopods have specialized training like fighter pilots. I agree with warpath. We can all be pilots. I want to be a space shuttle pilot.
 
Dune,

First off, let me apologize for the prick comment...the delusion comment just got a little under my skin.

My original post in this thread was just trying to answer a question as to why ortho and rads are so popular. I never brought in the fighter pilot analagy and I never said every one else had to take pods ****.

I also do not think that everyone but Cardiac and Neurosurgeons want to be pods. I only mentioned them, because someone else said they were the true fighter pilots, because they were the ones with life and death cases.

I am going through the match this year and I will have a major case of pod envy if things don't work out on Mar 17 (knocking on wood as I type), but I hope not to have to deal with the scramble, or a year of prelim surgery before going through this again.

I guess this is another example of the limitations of these forums. You can't always get the message you are trying to convey out with a few lines of text.
 
Is there a difference between a dumb blonde and an orthopod?
 
Yes...one is an air-head who uses their body more than their brain on a daily basis, while the other is a dumb blonde.
 
are all dokters bad spellurs?
 
I am a Orthopedic resident. I personally agree with all that is said about our field. We are the top students in our class, we work very hard, and we deserve the salaries that we work hard for.

As our years in residency progress, we do tend to let a lot of the medical/clinical aspect of general medicine leave our minds. We se ourselve as specialist. Internists, radiologists, pathologists, cardiologists, etc. all are specilist with training in their perspective fields. If I asked the average Internist to describe the operative technique to reapairing a simple posterior wall fracture, they probably wouldn't know the approach nor the appropriate anatomy around the hip joint.

In short, we all specialize in our perspective fields for particular reasons. If I wanted to follow cardiac enzymes, BUN/Cr., FBS, I would I have become an internist or an endocrinologist. We learn volumes of information in a short period of time. How many lectures in med school have you received on the principles/indications for fracture fixation (internal or external) compared to the lectures that you have had on HTN, DM, Appendicitis, Cholecystitis?

Dumb doctor's? Not by a long shot. We are smart enough to realize we are specialist of the musculoskeletal system, and we leave the other systems to the appropriate specialist.

Thanks.

Orthodog :clap:
 
hi there,

i work with orthopods a lot.... and yes they were the best in medical school... just as the derms/ophthos were the best in medical school... but they quickly loose touch with medical care in general because of their lack of exposure. The funny thing is that we don't expect ophthos to manage complicated patients on the floors or in the units, we don't expect derms to run codes and read EKGs, etc.... but for some reason we still hold those expectations of orthopods. and that puts a lot of unfair pressure on them... they fix bones and joints great and in ugly multi-ortho traumas they can help save lives, but that is about it... you don't know how many times they want to repair a week old femur fracture on a 98 year old who is currently having a brainstem infarct 🙂

as far as them being fighter pilots of medicine??? gimme a break... the fighter pilots are neurosurg/CT/general surgery...
 
God you guys are great. I'm starting med school in the fall and reading these posts is a breath of fresh air. You guys really keep it real. None of that touchy feely bs like I read constantly in the pre-allo forum. I enjoy reading the differences of opinions of everyone. Keep it up for the future 'pods like me out there!!!
 
Originally posted by droliver
I think Ortho gets the reputation for being such bad clinicians because they become so flip about patient care, above and beyond the other surgical disciplines. Most make it clear that they have no interest in anything resembling medical or complex post-operative management, & honestly patients with any signifgant injury or comorbidity are quite often safer under others care. After their PGY-1 year, you can clearly see a decline in their patient management skills because they get further away from using them with any frequency.


SO true. Hit the nail on the head
 
I think the one common thread is that most of you have never known a real fighter pilot. All specialties are just that - specialties. However, fighter pilots make everyone else know that THEY are flying the F/A-18, or V-22 Osprey, or F-117. The glamour is in dogfighting and firing missiles, even as the necessity of C-130's going from North Pole to South Pole, and the C5-A Guppy bringing the Space Shuttle back from Edwards (when it lands there), and the KC-135 to refuel are not given the 'front-page treatment'.

Ortho is on a macro scale - you see people move arms and legs, and walk again. What does the nephrologist do? Thinks a lot (and well), and writes stuff down. Medicine in general doesn't PHYSICALLY 'do' much at all.

Ortho patients are salvagable - or ortho doesn't get involved. Therefore, they have more visible success, often, and some of the residents present this.

CT-surgeons have done a full 5 years of Surgery, so they tend to be 1. older and 2. more aware of the politics of medicine (I can't say 'more mature', although that is a part of it).

Black-shoe destroyermen say they don't want to fly fighters. Submariners say that nuc power, 1000 feet down, is the true test. The EA-6B Prowler pilot will tell you how you cannot shoot his plane down. Some are telling the truth, and others are in denial.

But, to ask the fighter pilots, they tell you anyone not flying a plane, couldn't get a spot. They believe their own hype, above and beyond the truth to that statement.

Like it or not, many surgeons think surgery is superior to medicine - and surgery subspecialties say that half of the general surgeons are failed subspecialists. And there are more orthopods than ENT, Ophtho, or NeuroSx. people. And, as I stated above, Ortho is a large-scale profession - you see results, you see the hardware, you see the difference before and after.

So, why are Ortho and Rads so popular? 1. They're hard to get, and 2. People have strong opinions about them, which makes them desirable.

And I am prelim-IM, and reapplying for EM. There is no way I could get ortho, nor is there any way I would WANT ortho; likewise, I have ZERO desire for Rads. All I know is what I've seen, and I've seen ortho from 4 different programs, and Rads from 3, and there's a pattern.
 
Why is Ortho so competitive?

When you compare what different specialties do every day to bring home that loaf-o-bread, it should become clear why ortho is as competitive as it is.

IM docs look at labs, make "adjustments" on meds (K+, Insulin, Etc.,) and, if lucky, drive a scope down a tube. Fun?

ENT docs do pretty cool work, if you enjoy pulling wax and buggers out of the head - though they do get an exciting "bone" thrown to them, once-in-a-while.

Rads, no fun there, but look at their freakin' lives! Big $$, Good hours, NO PATIENTS!! 'nough said.

FP, OB, Psych - not going to waste my time . . .

Ortho - imagine the thrill of waking into the ER, with all of the other docs, interns, students, nurses, techs, and and custodial workers all looking at that comminuted femur fracture saying "Oh My God, that must really hurt . . ." and knowing that you are the only one in the room with the knowledge and training to put them back together. Total knee, no problem. Fractured hip, herniated disc, lacerated hand (volar, of course!), and the list goes on and on.

As for pods not treating HTN, DM, DVT, or any other medical issue. What a joke! While doing a general medicine rotation, an elderly woman s/p FOOSH presented for evaluation. "My wrist really hurts" she said. While looking at the 3 views of the wrist on xray he says "well, looks Okay to me . . . " I wanted to ask if he was kidding! He completely missed the fracture of the distal radius, visable in all three films! Radiologist comfirmed it the next morning. Point is, Thank God IM docs don't treat bones, and by the same token of gratitude, Thank God pods don't try to treat MI, DM, HNT, . . .

God bless medicine, and all of its fields, and remember, ortho is the best!
 
The money doesn't matter
The position doesn't matter

The only thing that matters is the most outward perspective towards medicine:
The betterment of human kind.
 
The money doesn't matter
The position doesn't matter

The only thing that matters is the most outward perspective towards medicine:
The betterment of human kind.


How noble of you. Are you intimately involved in medicine? Because I haven't heard that from one person once they start med school. Sounds like something people say in a med school interview, and something they don't mean at that, rather something they think sounds good to their interviewer.
 
Where I go to school (UAMS) we have a second year ortho resident who really was an Air Force Fighter Pilot! He went to the Air Force Academy, became a fighter pilot, and after he retired from the military decided to go to medical school.

As far as ortho guys being jocks, well I guess they are compared to other specialties. Yes, they are great athletes, but only in their own minds. I guess playing some high school ball, lifting weights, and some intramural basketball league does not a true athlete make! Some of them are the biggest bunch of wannabes I've ever met. I guess I have higher standards though, being that I was a National Class track and field athlete myself, and have trained with Olympic Gold medalists and American Record holders. I have at least 10 friends who competed in the 2000 Olympics. Most of these "jocks" are really pretty delusional about their own abilities and have no clue what real athletics is all about.
 
Originally posted by neutropeniaboy
Either way, I'd go to an orthopedic spine surgeon rather than a neurosurgeon...but that's my gig....


Why do you say that?

Seriously, though, I'm interested in a spine fellowship, and I know you can do it either as an ortho or a neuro surgeon. Is there an obvious benefit to one over the other? Also, can you somehow practice pediatric orthosurg (I know you can do a pediatric fellowship in neuro)?
 
The funny thing is that my landlord here in Atlanta is an orthopod. His previous career: PhD in Immunology!

Somebody PLEASE explain the relationship between the two!

When asked about his phd training and how it helped him in practice, he replied, "It just helps me read the literature and know when they are bull-sh*tting"...

Go figure. The guy is brilliant and does ALL of his own repairs on our townhouse...
 
Originally posted by orthoman5000
As far as ortho guys being jocks, well I guess they are compared to other specialties. Yes, they are great athletes, but only in their own minds. I guess playing some high school ball, lifting weights, and some intramural basketball league does not a true athlete make! Some of them are the biggest bunch of wannabes I've ever met. I guess I have higher standards though, being that I was a National Class track and field athlete myself, and have trained with Olympic Gold medalists and American Record holders. I have at least 10 friends who competed in the 2000 Olympics. Most of these "jocks" are really pretty delusional about their own abilities and have no clue what real athletics is all about.

I am still a good bit away from orthopaedic residency but I know several successful athletes (and current residents) who competed on the national and world level in many sports. From what I have seen (granted I work in a sports medicine lab), ortho definitely attracts the jocks whether they be high school, college, or world-class. A lot of athletes have been injured throughout their athletic careers and choose this field because they understand the emotional highs and lows of competing and injury (I don't think the level at which you play should matter). In fact, I am completely focused on ortho as my career and I would consider myself more than a "wannabe" - my world champion title in martial arts and two subsequent ortho surgeries definitely contributed to this goal...
 
Eric Heiden (Speed Skating, USA, 1980, G5) is now a staff orthopod at Stanford - and was the team physician at SLC '02.

And Orthoman5000's 10 friends in the Olympics is extreme for ANYONE - the closest I ever got was when I did EMS for the World University Games, in the fencing venue, and saw Olympians from all over the world (including the 1992 Women's Gold from Italy (when women did foil only - I think they do all 3 now)), and a guy who was a cycling alternate for Ireland (he holds triple citizenship - Ireland, UK, and an African nation (which he bought - cheap!), and I asked why he did Ireland instead of UK - he said, "56 million people in the UK, 4 million in Ireland - you figure it out!").
 
Well I never said that there were not some great athletes that go into orthopaedic surgery, I was just stating that most of the people I know who are wanting to be orthopaedic surgeons are more just "recreational" type athletes and not really very accomplished. I was just refuting the comment that the orthopaedic surgeons are the "studs", because most that I know certainly aren't. My definition of athletic stud is probably a bit different though than the former high school ball player that goes to the gym, plays intramural sports with his frat brothers, and then thinks he's hardcore.

I guess I overestimated the number of Olympians I know. I know 6 people that competed in the 2000 Olympics (1 in discus-former Gold medal winner in 92, 1 in Long Jump, 1 in triple jump-he's an M2 at my med school, and 3 in pole vault). If you include the total number I know it's over 10. Then the total number I've competed against is probably even higher. I on the other hand was never an Olympian, just had to be content with being in the top 50 in the US in my event. But at least it wasn't a sport with weight classes, and about 15 different Federations all claiming to have a "World Championship."

Now my argument has never been that you have to be a super accomplished athlete to be an orthopaedic surgeon. I was just trying to bring down surgeons perception of themselves a few notches! 🙂
 
I was just trying to bring down surgeons perception of themselves a few notches! 🙂 [/B]


Maybe you should ditch the charity act and work on bringing your own self perception back to earth. I hope you find a way to ditch the arrogance before you try to match ortho because I see nothing in your last two posts that leads me to believe you would be a good guy to work with over the long term.

Bonecutter
 
Originally posted by bonecutter
Maybe you should ditch the charity act and work on bringing your own self perception back to earth. I hope you find a way to ditch the arrogance before you try to match ortho because I see nothing in your last two posts that leads me to believe you would be a good guy to work with over the long term.

Bonecutter

I guess you are probably right. I'm guilty of the behaviour I despise myself. I was being sarcastic though about bringing down surgeons ego's a few notches, thus the smiley face.
 
It is not that everyone expects Ortho to treat HTN, CAD, PE, etc.

But the problem is that many of orthopod's patients are elderly and have many co-morbidities. So whether they like it or not, they have to at least be able to manage simple medical problems because these are their patients and not other people's! Or at least, they should CARE about their pts' post-op recovery enough to prevent them from developing DVT, PE, aspiration pneumonia, etc. And when they don't and complications arise, they just transfer them to medicine floor.

And when general surgeons can do a better job than orthopods with post-op care, then 'pods should look into their own training. You an argue that general surgeons have to be in the OR for a long time as well, actually learning various surgeries of the abdomin. Yet, they still know how to manage patients post-operatively. Orthopods cannot call themselves sub-specialists and thereby clean their hands of any post-operative care even for pts with simple, medical comorbidities.

In the hospital I train at, there is a decisive fear that orthopod will kill another patient or two during their post-operative period. Sometimes, it is as simple as getting pts to get out of bed or at least sit up while they eat (!) but instead these pts lie on their backs all day and aspirate, and die shortly after transfer to the medicine ward...

The bottomline is, "If you agree to do a knee replacement on a very frail 85 yo gentleman, then you should be ready to take care of him after the operation despite the fact that he has HTN and a hx of MI." It is noble to say, "All pts should be treated equal. Who said that an 85 yo person does not NEED an knee replacement? We shall help him walk again so he can enjoy his time with his grandchildren!" Great...what a noble goal! But please take care of him well post-operatively so he does not die (or else what's the point of doing the operation in the first place? other than collecting money from his relative, he would not walk on his knee is this scenario either).
 
Just to add fuel to the fire, in one of the hospitals I 've visited there is a shorthand for the poor Ortho care.
FOOBA = found on ortho, barely alive

Not all ortho people are bad at the medical care, but when an acronym is in use at the hospital, the service can't be a shining star.
 
why is it so competitive you ask?

well lets see...great lifestyle and big bucks..thats good enough to attract alot of people!
 
Originally posted by EidolonSix
...The sad thing is that a good percentage of these patients have comorbidities that need to be addressed before and immediately after surgery which end up prolonging their hospital stays...in their training, unlike esteemed general surgeons, these guys get no encouragement or instruction to learn basic medicine, which is the foundation for all that we do as physicians. As a result, orthopods are left without training to handle medical issues and be it out of a lack of confidence with their knowledge, a frank lack of understanding of basic medical principles and/or a disinterest in patient welfare beyond their torn ACL, have a very low threshold with which to dump patients...

I will not try to say ortho residency is easy, because from what I have seen it is very tough. Having said that, I will make a few points and observations.

First, the year before my first Gsurge internship ALL the ortho residents during their obligatory year of GSurge deliberately tanked the Gsurge inservice exam!!!

Second, the ortho residents and staff during my first Gsurge internship made it very clear they wanted to be in ortho to do the "simple saw and hammer thing". I have no doubt otho doctors are smart. However, if faced with the opportunity to only do high paying "saw & hammer" jobs and dump the "medical management" tasks onto someone else, I too might be tempted...hell it would make life and career easier. Let's face it, it would be nice as a surgeon to know the late night call on a post-op patient with a blood sugar of 250 is going to the "other doctor".

Third, I am presently completing my FP internship before returning to Gsurgery. Without exception, if a patient falls and breaks something, ortho has refused to admit the patient. Instead, they have insisted FP admit and consult ortho. Short of the OR time, the only group in the hospital that has in my experience had less inpatient contact on their patient other then ortho has been radiology!!!

Fourth, ortho often requires Gsurge or vascular for some of their approaches, i.e. anterior retroperitoneal approach for disckectomy and spacer placement.

I close by saying, yes Ortho doctors are intelligent. Yes their residency is very rigorous and specialized. However, If ortho doctors insist on limiting their level of patient management to the OR, you might want to just admit and accept that limitation and not use a "fighter pilot" analogy. Someone in this thread has talked about the "no micro" aspect of ortho but rather the "macro" nature of ortho. That does of course add a degree of ease in your job. Gsurgeons, CT surgeons and even neurosurgeons have in my experience both as a surgical resident and FP resident demonstrated a significant willingness and ABILITY to manage patients beyond the OR. That is not to say ortho is incapable of this level of management, but Ortho has in my experience at the very least failed to do so be it by choice or inability. Ortho has refused to manage controlled diabetics post-operatively, ortho has refused to manage TPN, in fact ortho has on occasion refused manage post-op pain.

Be smart, enjoy your job, you earned it and worked hard to get there, but understand the limitations either self-imposed by choice or by lost skills. Given those limitations, I advise you to place your ego in check.

to answer the original poster's question, IMHO I believe ortho is attractive because it is surgical, it pays well, lifestyle after residency can be quite good, and if you choose to have a "traditional" ortho practice, most pre & post-op care is someone else's problem. Also, I do believe a major factor is the satisfaction of being able to say a patient walks because of your efforts. You just can't discount the gratification you get from increasing a patient's quality of life by replcing a knee or hip!!!
 
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