Why is podiatry not a sub-specialty of medicine?

[Goro]

Someone here fears that a podiatrist will eat his lunch. In the end, these turf wars all come down to money.

It's not just that. A handful of SDNers have the idea that doctors/physicians are the "anointed" and God forbid anyone else use that term. All about ego and absolutely zero related to turf, cash or patient safety. Some of them even have the attitude of "how dare those uppity mid-levels move beyond their station!" One of them even use the term "betters" as in "nurses need to know their place and how dare they think....".

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[Goro]

Another fun fact: in England, surgeons are called Mr.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Someone here fears that a podiatrist will eat his lunch. In the end, these turf wars all come down to money.

Yea, I pretty literally said that. And anesthesiologists are rightly fearful of CRNA turf creep, pricare and internists of DNPs, etc. Nevermind that it actually does come down to patient care (orthopedists are not in jeapardy financially any time soon). But yes let's just pretend this is all a petty turf battle and start expanding everyone's scope. Let CNAs dispense meds. Let RNs run clinics. I mean where does it stop.

Fun fact: the associated press only allows the honorific title of Dr. to be used by MDs, DOs, dentists, and podiatrists. Podiatrists can legally call themselves podiatric physicians/surgeons in my state, and have hospital privileges and the ability to direct hospital staff. So, at least here, they're physicians, albeit limited ones. But ultimately we all are, because while we can do anything, hospital privileges, insurance rules, and liability often bar us from stepping out of our specialties.

Fun fact: associated press and state legislature are not medical professionals. Also, the AP really doesn't recognize PhDs as "Dr"? That's absurd.

NPs and PAs have hospital privileges and the ability to direct hospital staff, are they physicians too? A limited "physician" is not a physician.

It's not just that. A handful of SDNers have the idea that doctors/physicians are the "anointed" and God forbid anyone else use that term. All about ego and absolutely zero related to turf, cash or patient safety. Some of them even have the attitude of "how dare those uppity mid-levels move beyond their station!" One of them even use the term "betters" as in "nurses need to know their place and how dare they think....".

Um. It's pretty much all about turf, and patient safety. For the primary care people it's definitely about cash too, since they're so underpaid already.

And.. yea midlevels shouldn't move beyond their station, don't you think that's a patient care problem, when people without the adequate training or experience start trying to practice beyond their scope?

God forbid words actually have any meaning.

Another fun fact: in England, surgeons are called Mr.

IIRC that's actually an honorific reserved specifically for FRCS, not any ole surgeon

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Another fun fact: in England, surgeons are called Mr.

Right, but that’s based on the historical separation between physicians and surgeons, as the latter were paired with the barbers originally. As things progressed and surgery started to outpace medicine in prestige, things got muddled. But surgeons essentially refused to be called doctor so as to differentiate themselves from lowly general practitioners who would often call themselves surgeons (as they had to have the MRCS and LAS to practice).

 

[LizzyM]

Yea, I pretty literally said that. And anesthesiologists are rightly fearful of CRNA turf creep, pricare and internists of DNPs, etc. Nevermind that it actually does come down to patient care (orthopedists are not in jeapardy financially any time soon). But yes let's just pretend this is all a petty turf battle and start expanding everyone's scope. Let CNAs dispense meds. Let RNs run clinics. I mean where does it stop.

It stops when everyone has access to affordable care. I know of midlevels who provide care in clinics that could not afford to stay open if they had to operate solely with MDs or DOs. They aren't being sued for malpractice so I have to assume that the care they provide is meeting local standards for quality. My hispanic neighbors love their doctora who happens to be a nurse practitioner and a I once got an essay about the ideal physician who described a guy at a university in a neighboring state by name and gave an example of the care he provided... I know him personally; he's a PA.

 

[Mad Jack]

Yea, I pretty literally said that. And anesthesiologists are rightly fearful of CRNA turf creep, pricare and internists of DNPs, etc. Nevermind that it actually does come down to patient care (orthopedists are not in jeapardy financially any time soon). But yes let's just pretend this is all a petty turf battle and start expanding everyone's scope. Let CNAs dispense meds. Let RNs run clinics. I mean where does it stop.


Fun fact: associated press and state legislature are not medical professionals. Also, the AP really doesn't recognize PhDs as "Dr"? That's absurd.

NPs and PAs have hospital privileges and the ability to direct hospital staff, are they physicians too? A limited "physician" is not a physician.


Um. It's pretty much all about turf, and patient safety. For the primary care people it's definitely about cash too, since they're so underpaid already.

And.. yea midlevels shouldn't move beyond their station, don't you think that's a patient care problem, when people without the adequate training or experience start trying to practice beyond their scope?

God forbid words actually have any meaning.


IIRC that's actually an honorific reserved specifically for FRCS, not any ole surgeon

The AMA themselves actually pushed for legislation that would allow podiatrists to call themselves physicians in California, but with the qualifier that they must specify that they are DPMs and not DOs or MDs on their badges and clearly identified as such in their office. So, you know, the AMA pushed for legislation that clarified that they are entitled to the right of the use both doctor and physician. So if the AMA, legislatures, public perception, etc don't make them a physician, what does?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It stops when everyone has access to affordable care. I know of midlevels who provide care in clinics that could not afford to stay open if they had to operate solely with MDs or DOs. They aren't being sued for malpractice so I have to assume that the care they provide is meeting local standards for quality. My hispanic neighbors love their doctora who happens to be a nurse practitioner and a I once got an essay about the ideal physician who described a guy at a university in a neighboring state by name and gave an example of the care he provided... I know him personally; he's a PA.

And I personally know an NP who couldn’t diagnose otitis media, an ortho PA who didn’t understand how calcium or fractures work, and an NP who went back to being a floor nurse because she was terrified her lack of knowledge was going to hurt a patient.

Anecdotes are just anecdotes. But there is good data that midlevels consult more, order more tests, prescribe more antibiotics, and miss things more. I practiced as a midlevel, and the solution to healthcare access isn’t to give more privileges to less qualified people. PAs and NPs definitely have a role in providing access to care and in medicine in general. But it’s isn’t in replacing doctors.

 

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

Per the code of Virginia, physicians are MDs, DOs, DPMs.

DPMs can supervise PAs, Dentists can't. Makes sense to me.

Edit: Oh and neither can DNPs, lol.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

It stops when everyone has access to affordable care. I know of midlevels who provide care in clinics that could not afford to stay open if they had to operate solely with MDs or DOs. They aren't being sued for malpractice so I have to assume that the care they provide is meeting local standards for quality. My hispanic neighbors love their doctora who happens to be a nurse practitioner and a I once got an essay about the ideal physician who described a guy at a university in a neighboring state by name and gave an example of the care he provided... I know him personally; he's a PA.

Your case for quality is that they aren't being sued? You cannot be serious. Are you serious?

View attachment 224631
The AMA themselves actually pushed for legislation that would allow podiatrists to call themselves physicians in California, but with the qualifier that they must specify that they are DPMs and not DOs or MDs on their badges and clearly identified as such in their office. So, you know, the AMA pushed for legislation that clarified that they are entitled to the right of the use both doctor and physician. So if the AMA, legislatures, public perception, etc don't make them a physician, what does?

The alternative in California was that everybody could call themselves physicians so they made the best deal that they could

 

[Mad Jack]

Your case for quality is that they aren't being sued? You cannot be serious. Are you serious?


The alternative in California was that everybody could call themselves physicians so they made the best deal that they could

But hey, it's AMA endorsed, because it's realistically what we're living with.

 

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

It stops when everyone has access to affordable care. I know of midlevels who provide care in clinics that could not afford to stay open if they had to operate solely with MDs or DOs. They aren't being sued for malpractice so I have to assume that the care they provide is meeting local standards for quality. My hispanic neighbors love their doctora who happens to be a nurse practitioner and a I once got an essay about the ideal physician who described a guy at a university in a neighboring state by name and gave an example of the care he provided... I know him personally; he's a PA.

Did you let them in?

 

[RogueUnicorn]

But hey, it's AMA endorsed, because it's realistically what we're living with.

Yea man, LizzyM's own examples show it's hard enough for people interested in the field to see this apart, so it's not particularly helpful when our colleagues go "meh." Which is kind of funny because it's these very same people that start panicking 10 years down the line when they realize their practice is being threatened.

And again to emphasize, the alternative in California was like.. naturopaths and homeopaths calling themselves physicians with absolutely zero compulsion to clarify that title, so...

 

[Mad Jack]

Yea man, LizzyM's own examples show it's hard enough for people interested in the field to see this apart, so it's not particularly helpful when our colleagues go "meh." Which is kind of funny because it's these very same people that start panicking 10 years down the line when they realize their practice is being threatened.

And again to emphasize, the alternative in California was like.. naturopaths and homeopaths calling themselves physicians with absolutely zero compulsion to clarify that title, so...

I mean, it shouldn't all be about competition. It should be about quality. If podiatrists can do surgery competently and with high enough quality that they can replace orthopedists in certain cases, then I'm all for it. I'd rather have greater access to decent care for all Americans than increased job stability.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Yea man, LizzyM's own examples show it's hard enough for people interested in the field to see this apart, so it's not particularly helpful when our colleagues go "meh." Which is kind of funny because it's these very same people that start panicking 10 years down the line when they realize their practice is being threatened.

And again to emphasize, the alternative in California was like.. naturopaths and homeopaths calling themselves physicians with absolutely zero compulsion to clarify that title, so...

Naturopaths can call themselves Dr in Cali though. That’s bad enough.

 

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

And again to emphasize, the alternative in California was like.. naturopaths and homeopaths calling themselves physicians with absolutely zero compulsion to clarify that title, so...

You said that awfully well...

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I mean, it shouldn't all be about competition. It should be about quality. If podiatrists can do surgery competently and with high enough quality that they can replace orthopedists in certain cases, then I'm all for it. I'd rather have greater access to decent care for all Americans than increased job stability.

Absolutely. They do ankle fractures as do we, among other things, and so far there's nothing to say that there's any difference in outcomes. But it's a hard line in the sand when they try to creep up the leg.

Naturopaths can call themselves Dr in Cali though. That’s bad enough.

Yea man. Cali's apparently crazy.

 

[LizzyM]

Your case for quality is that they aren't being sued? You cannot be serious. Are you serious?

What metric would you use? If they were missing important diagnoses or causing delays in the treatment of serious illnesses, wouldn't there be lawsuits galore?

Anecdotes are just anecdotes. But there is good data that midlevels consult more, order more tests, prescribe more antibiotics, and miss things more. I practiced as a midlevel, and the solution to healthcare access isn’t to give more privileges to less qualified people. PAs and NPs definitely have a role in providing access to care and in medicine in general. But it’s isn’t in replacing doctors.

Yes, when I took my kids to the pediatrician for routine "well child" visits and they were seen soley by a NP, the NP was replacing a doctor for that visit. There needs to be quality control but I don't believe that we are in a problem spot as things stand now.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Absolutely. They do ankle fractures as do we, among other things, and so far there's nothing to say that there's any difference in outcomes. But it's a hard line in the sand when they try to creep up the leg.


Yea man. Cali's apparently crazy.

Don’t get me started. So happy to be out of the Republik.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

What metric would you use? If they were missing important diagnoses or causing delays in the treatment of serious illnesses, wouldn't there be lawsuits galore?



Yes, when I took my kids to the pediatrician for routine "well child" visits and they were seen soley by a NP, the NP was replacing a doctor for that visit. There needs to be quality control but I don't believe that we are in a problem spot as things stand now.

Does she work for the pediatrician in an extender role or does she have her own clinic with no oversight? Because it sounds like the former, in which case she has not replaced a doctor but helped her see more patients.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

What metric would you use? If they were missing important diagnoses or causing delays in the treatment of serious illnesses, wouldn't there be lawsuits galore?

In a poor population with lower SES and less education? Doubtful. Also, most people don’t realize if they are getting substandard care unless it seriously affects their quality of life, which may not be until years or decades down the line.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

What metric would you use? If they were missing important diagnoses or causing delays in the treatment of serious illnesses, wouldn't there be lawsuits galore?

I'm a little distressed by a medical school faculty member being this ignorant about medical malpractice lawsuits. Studies over and over have shown that the single greatest factor in lawsuits aren't quality of care but rather if a patient liked their doctor. Further, I'm going to hazard a guess that predatory patients/lawyers don't associate PAs and NPs with dollar signs just yet.

I believe Mat9:35 already addressed the quality issues as it pertains to tests, missed diags, etc.

Yes, when I took my kids to the pediatrician for routine "well child" visits and they were seen soley by a NP, the NP was replacing a doctor for that visit. There needs to be quality control but I don't believe that we are in a problem spot as things stand now.

The way things stand now is a dynamic equilibrium between those who seek to expand and those who seek to reign that in; I'm obviously in the latter camp. The way things are now is in no way a given for the near or long-term.

Don’t get me started. So happy to be out of the Republik.

I hear it's at least sunny.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I'm a little distressed by a medical school faculty member being this ignorant about medical malpractice lawsuits. Studies over and over have shown that the single greatest factor in lawsuits aren't quality of care but rather if a patient liked their doctor. Further, I'm going to hazard a guess that predatory patients/lawyers don't associate PAs and NPs with dollar signs just yet.

I believe Mat9:35 already addressed the quality issues as it pertains to tests, missed diags, etc.

The way things stand now is a dynamic equilibrium between those who seek to expand and those who seek to reign that in; I'm obviously in the latter camp. The way things are now is in no way a given for the near or long-term.


I hear it's at least sunny.

It used to be. Had the rainiest winter in recent history last year, but it was really needed.

 

[Mad Jack]

In a poor population with lower SES and less education? Doubtful. Also, most people don’t realize if they are getting substandard care unless it seriously affects their quality of life, which may not be until years or decades down the line.

Was having a talk with a doctor about this the other day. You'd need to track outcomes for 10+ years, and most of these other provider studies track 6 month to 2 year outcomes max.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Was having a talk with a doctor about this the other day. You'd need to track outcomes for 10+ years, and most of these other provider studies track 6 month to 2 year outcomes max.

Of course. But there are some short term studies that show midlevels cost patients and insurance companies more money by calling more consults, using more tests, etc. We may not be able to tell if their long term outcomes are any worse, but short term they certainly cost more and use unnecessary tests.

 

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

OK so here's the thing: at the end of the day, you're the highest level (meaning autonomous/can practice independently) medical specialist of a certain area/pathology/patient population, who is sufficiently trained to take whole body physiology and pathophysiology into account when relevant to the specialty at hand, with surgical and prescriptive priveledges whether you are a cardiologist, dermatologist, geriatrician, ophthalmologist, intensivist, or podiatrist. And those are your job titles to choose from.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

OK so here's the thing: at the end of the day, you're the highest level (meaning autonomous/can practice independently) medical specialist of a certain area/pathology/patient population, who is sufficiently trained to take whole body physiology and pathophysiology into account when relevant to the specialty at hand, with surgical and prescriptive priveledges whether you are a cardiologist, dermatologist, geriatrician, ophthalmologist, intensivist, or podiatrist. And those are your job titles to choose from.

Do pods learn whole body medicine as in depth as MDs/DOs?

 

[de Ribas]

Do pods learn whole body medicine as in depth as MDs/DOs?

do they need to?

NP's do not learn even 50% of what DPM's learn and have the same autonomy as PCP's. I think NP's have more autonomy and stepped "out of their station", but for some reason nobody says much. (because nursing is huge)

 

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

Do pods learn whole body medicine as in depth as MDs/DOs?

I don't want to be a podiatrist so I'm not saying this out of self-interest, but it's my understanding that it's actually pretty close. They probably learn many more details than they need to, anyway.

 

[Dox4lyfe]

Wow this thread is on fire. I love it!

 

[de Ribas]

I don't want to be a podiatrist so I'm not saying this out of self-interest, but it's my understanding that it's actually pretty close. They probably learn many more details than they need to, anyway.

I am sure it will be improving. Most PCP's have only 3 years of residency and they are doing fine. Podiatrists have similar education.

 

[Podstar]

do they need to?

Yes. Pathology in other parts of the body can manifest symptoms in the foot and ankle, so it is important to be able to recognize these symptoms and be able to refer or treat accordingly. Also, it is important for podiatrists to be able to effectively work and communicate with the DOs and MDs treating other parts of the body; including understanding medications and how they will interact with medications being prescribed by the podiatrist. There are many more reasons why it is important for a podiatrist to learn whole body medicine, I just listed a few. We do take organ systems with pathology in school and rotate through a number of different specialties such as internal medicine, radiology, emergency medicine, plastics, general surgery, family medicine, vascular surgery, infectious disease, neurology, dermatology etc. during our residency.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

do they need to?

Not unless they want to practice medicine, which they almost invariably do not. They're usually interested in being podiatrists, not physicians.

NP's do not learn even 50% of what DPM's learn and have the same autonomy as PCP's. I think NP's have more autonomy and stepped "out of their station", but for some reason nobody says much. (because nursing is huge)

NPs absolutely do not have the same autonomy as PCPs in the vast majority of fields. And lol@ you for saying "nobody says much." OK man.

I don't want to be a podiatrist so I'm not saying this out of self-interest, but it's my understanding that it's actually pretty close. They probably learn many more details than they need to, anyway.

No it's not that close

I am sure it will be improving. Most PCP's have only 3 years of residency and they are doing fine. Podiatrists have similar education.

How about you step into med school before you talk about similar education?

 

[bears1992]

To everyone on SDN, I am so sorry I made this post. There are almost 100 comments on here about if podiatrists can call themselves a doctor. WHO CARES. Everyone in this thread comments in other posts about going into medicine to serve others, but now we are arguing about preserving the "Dr" and "Physician" title so we can feel all high and mighty.

 

[de Ribas]

Not unless they want to practice medicine, which they almost invariably do not. They're usually interested in being podiatrists, not physicians.

NPs absolutely do not have the same autonomy as PCPs in the vast majority of fields. And lol@ you for saying "nobody says much." OK man.

No it's not that close

How about you step into med school before you talk about similar education?

in most places NPs have exactly the same autonomy. In clinic across my house there are 2 NP's and 1 DO. I shadowed that DO and he told me that NP's have the same right to prescribe and diagnose. I thought that NPs have to get his approval, but he said no. They are fully autonomous in terms of primary care.

In my home town, in the clinic, there are like 4 DO and 7-8 NPs and they see patients on their own and most people don't even know that they are not physicians. They can see patients, diagnose, prescribe and refer to a specialist. 99% of other PCP physicians do for sure.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

Do pods learn whole body medicine as in depth as MDs/DOs?

In addition to what Podstar said:

Yes. Some Pod schools have a curriculum where we are taking the same classes & same exams, as our MD/DO counterparts. I am a 1st year at Scholl and here we take more or less the same courses alongside with the MD students at Chicago Medical School (with the exception of Embryology during the first year and I believe behavioral sciences during 2nd year). The same is true for the students at other Pod schools that are affiliated with either an MD program or a DO program.

Because this is a specialized field, we, of course, will be taking classes related to Podiatric medicine and surgery, but the basic sciences and most the clinical sciences (rotations) are the at the same level & in-depth as that of an MD/DO curriculum.

And, because this is a pre-med forum, if anyone is interested in Sports Med, Orthopedics, Wound care, Diabetes, etc, then definitely shadow a Pod in different settings (clinic and hospitals).

 

[de Ribas]

That's nice but I wouldn't really care whether you, hypothetical average working American, are pissed or not. You're not at my level intellectually. Too bad for you.

"You're not at my level intellectually." - quote
"I am better" - quote from previous threads.

I guess that explains everything.
When someone thinks of themselves highly, there are always heated debates.

Going to medicine for own ego, prestige and to look at others from "I am better" - perspective has no place in medicine.

 

[DokM3m3]

I don't even think pod students would want to have it become a sub-specialty of medicine. Considering pod schools have averages of ~3.2/22(493), those students would've had no other chance to become "medical professionals" if pod schools hadn't been separate.

 

[de Ribas]

I don't even think pod students would want to have it become a sub-specialty of medicine. Considering pod schools have averages of ~3.2/22(493), those students would've had no other chance to become "medical professionals" if pod schools hadn't been separate.

DMU cGPA is 3.45 and Scholl is 3.3 GPA 495 MCAT.


not long ago these were stats for DO schools. In fact, there are dozen of people who get admitted to M.D. schools every year with around 3.0. My state MD avg MCAT is 503. Not that I encourage low stats.


Rosalind Franklin MD school just entered their 2021 Class Profile data.
sGPA - 3.37
cGPA - 3.49

 

[Goro]

"You're not at my level intellectually." - quote
"I am better" - quote from previous threads.

I guess that explains everything.
When someone thinks of themselves highly, there are always heated debates.

Going to medicine for own ego, prestige and to look at others from "I am better" - perspective has no place in medicine.

Indeed. There are a few residents on SDN whose attitudes are all about Class and rank, and definitely not about salary competition or patient safety. A good deal of this is motivated by misogyny, I'll wager.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

do they need to?

NP's do not learn even 50% of what DPM's learn and have the same autonomy as PCP's. I think NP's have more autonomy and stepped "out of their station", but for some reason nobody says much. (because nursing is huge)

To meet this criteria, yes.

at the end of the day, you're the highest level (meaning autonomous/can practice independently) medical specialist of a certain area/pathology/patient population, who is sufficiently trained to take whole body physiology and pathophysiology into account when relevant to the specialty at hand, with surgical and prescriptive priveledges whether you are a cardiologist, dermatologist, geriatrician, ophthalmologist, intensivist, or podiatrist.

And NPs have less than half the training, and should not have the freedoms they do. It’s a travesty that they do.

 

[de Ribas]

To meet this criteria, yes.



And NPs have less than half the training, and should not have the freedoms they do. It’s a travesty that they do.

There is shortage in primary care especially in rural areas. MDs are desiring to specialize (more respect, money and prestige) and not willing to go to rural and underserved areas so much - vacuum was created. This vacuum is filling in with NP's. I prefer having them serve than nobody at all.

 

[SnozzBerry]

DMU cGPA is 3.45 and Scholl is 3.3 GPA 495 MCAT.


not long ago these were stats for DO schools. In fact, there are dozen of people who get admitted to M.D. schools every year with around 3.0. My state MD avg MCAT is 503. Not that I encourage low stats.


Rosalind Franklin MD school just entered their 2021 Class Profile data.
sGPA - 3.37
cGPA - 3.49

Aren’t you comparing the pod schools with the highest stats versus the MD with almost the lowest ? Wouldn’t it be more fair to compare averages?

 

[de Ribas]

Aren’t you comparing the pod schools with the highest stats versus the MD with almost the lowest ? Wouldn’t it be more fair to compare averages?

It would be fair for the purpose of overall comparison.
Actually, I was not comparing. Stats are obvious and everyone knows the averages. We know they are different.
My only point was that there are still MD schools and DO schools with similar (not equal) stats. In fact, there are students who have 3.8+ GPAs and still go to podiatry. The point is that that GPA difference is not most significant factor to determine how good physician will be. That was my point to show these stats. There are hundreds of students who matriculate in medical schools with lower than 3.3 GPA and they still become physicians.

GPA and MCAT are indeed very important factors, but definitely not everything to point out that pod schools have lower stats therefore they are not qualified or less qualified.

All I want is for people to think objectively.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

In addition to what Podstar said:

Yes. Some Pod schools have a curriculum where we are taking the same classes & same exams, as our MD/DO counterparts. I am a 1st year at Scholl and here we take more or less the same courses alongside with the MD students at Chicago Medical School (with the exception of Embryology during the first year and I believe behavioral sciences during 2nd year). The same is true for the students at other Pod schools that are affiliated with either an MD program or a DO program.

Because this is a specialized field, we, of course, will be taking classes related to Podiatric medicine and surgery, but the basic sciences and most the clinical sciences (rotations) are the at the same level & in-depth as that of an MD/DO curriculum.

And, because this is a pre-med forum, if anyone is interested in Sports Med, Orthopedics, Wound care, Diabetes, etc, then definitely shadow a Pod in different settings (clinic and hospitals).

Cool. I didn’t know very many details about Pod school. Is that standardized across Pod schools or do some not give a whole body education? Do you guys do cadaver lab?

 

[Podstar]

Cool. I didn’t know very many details about Pod school. Is that standardized across Pod schools or do some not give a whole body education? Do you guys do cadaver lab?

All of the schools teach whole body education and all have human anatomy with cadaver labs, along with a whole separate class for lower extremity anatomy with another dissection.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Aren’t you comparing the pod schools with the highest stats versus the MD with almost the lowest ? Wouldn’t it be more fair to compare averages?

Mean GPA was a 3.70 (sGPA 3.64/non-sGPA 3.78) and mean MCAT was 508.7 for 2016 matriculating MD students.

Mean GPA for pods was 3.37, sGPA mean was 3.28 for 2015 entering students. MCAT scores were mostly reported in the old scale, and was a 24, which is apparently equivalent to a 498 on Efle’s conversion chart.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321496/data/factstablea17.pdf

http://www.aacpm.org/wp-content/uploads/2017-2018-CIB_DIGITAL-FINAL.pdf

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

All of the schools teach whole body education and all have human anatomy with cadaver labs, along with a whole separate class for lower extremity anatomy with another dissection.

Good to know.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

There is shortage in primary care especially in rural areas. MDs are desiring to specialize (more respect, money and prestige) and not willing to go to rural and underserved areas so much - vacuum was created. This vacuum is filling in with NP's. I prefer having them serve than nobody at all.

The solution isn’t to give more responsibility and freedom to lesser trained people. The solution is to be better at attracting doctors to primary care and underserved areas. Midlevels absolutely have a part in healthcare and in the access problem. The best solution that is best for patients is not to give them a provider with a substandard education and the power of a BC/BE physician.

 

[de Ribas]

The solution isn’t to give more responsibility and freedom to lesser trained people. The solution is to be better at attracting doctors to primary care and underserved areas. Midlevels absolutely have a part in healthcare and in the access problem. The best solution that is best for patients is not to give them a provider with a substandard education and the power of a BC/BE physician.

What would be that attracting factor to primary care? Higher salaries than orthopedic surgeons and cardiologists?

My wife and kids are seeing NP as their PCP. I am satisfied with her exceptional experience and professionalism. In fact she was the only one who caught something in the ultrasound of my child, and not the radiologist. NPs get 100K salary and it attracts them to rural areas, while you probably have to pay 300K to physicians to go to rural. I am for better access and lower costs.


Most small towns have only 1 DO and several NP's. Why? Because they cannot attract physicians to these areas. At least DNP's are willing to go there and provide primary care.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

in most places NPs have exactly the same autonomy.

they don't dude, that's just a fact; your anecdote is meaningless, your DO doesn't want the NP to run and get his approval for everything because that would only slow everything down. full autonomy is practicing under your own license; the vast majority of states do not offer NPs this privilege though they continue to fight that. you keep confusing "indistinguishable to the layman" with "same autonomy"

Because this is a specialized field, we, of course, will be taking classes related to Podiatric medicine and surgery, but the basic sciences and most the clinical sciences (rotations) are the at the same level & in-depth as that of an MD/DO curriculum.
And, because this is a pre-med forum, if anyone is interested in Sports Med, Orthopedics, Wound care, Diabetes, etc, then definitely shadow a Pod in different settings (clinic and hospitals).

buddy there's a 0% chance your clinical rotations are at the same level as that of MDs. I mean, how can you even know this? I didn't realize the stark quality differences among MD schools until I started doing away sub-i's and then subsequently as a resident. moreover, it's not only just bout having the same-named rotations on paper; it's about what you actually do during those rotations and the fervor with which you study and work during those weeks.

and I would contend that most people interested in orthopedics should shadow an orthopedist

"You're not at my level intellectually." - quote
"I am better" - quote from previous threads.

Going to medicine for own ego, prestige and to look at others from "I am better" - perspective has no place in medicine.

Oh my god you got me. I have a high opinion of myself. Let me go ahead and diminish my accomplishments, pretend I'm not as intelligent as I am all to appease your sense of misguided egalitarianism.

Hey you know what perspective actually has no literal place in medicine, that of a premed ;-)

Indeed. There are a few residents on SDN whose attitudes are all about Class and rank, and definitely not about salary competition or patient safety. A good deal of this is motivated by misogyny, I'll wager.

Excuse me?

GPA and MCAT are indeed very important factors, but definitely not everything to point out that pod schools have lower stats therefore they are not qualified or less qualified.

Neither GPA nor MCAT has any bearing on this current discussion as far as I'm concerned. Their average can be 4.0/45 (I'm old) or 1.0/3, doesn't make a lick of difference because it's about post-acceptance education and training. Pretty much anyone with a 3.0/24 in my opinion is perfectly capable of learning enough of the material if given the opportunity/ required to do so.

What would be that attracting factor to primary care? Higher salaries than orthopedic surgeons and cardiologists?

Yea higher salaries would be a start and often cited reason to not do primary care. Doesn't have to be cardiologist level but should probably be higher than a surgical PA.