Why is the MSAR scary and how do I make it not scary?

[About28]

I've been perusing the MSAR trying to generate an awesome and strategic list of med schools. I thought that I would have no issue locating OOS friendly schools and schools that accept around my stats (3.65 gpa 34 MCAT, I'm also from MA). I first noticed that my gpa is either the average or well below the average at almost every school, where as I thought it was competitive.

Next, I'm having trouble figuring out how OOS friendly a school is. Is the number of OOS interviews a good indicator?

Finally, my gpa and MCAT are between the 10th and 90th percentile at virtually every school, so that complicates things more.

I just generally want advice and tips on how to decode the MSAR to generate a great list of schools to apply to.

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[Espadaleader]

It is worth it to purchase the US News Compass. They give average MCAT and GPA and the breakdown of how many people apply/interview/accept/matriculate. This is absolutely vital.

 

[Lollygag]

I've been perusing the MSAR trying to generate an awesome and strategic list of med schools. I thought that I would have no issue locating OOS friendly schools and schools that accept around my stats (3.65 gpa 34 MCAT, I'm also from MA). I first noticed that my gpa is either the average or well below the average at almost every school, where as I thought it was competitive.

Next, I'm having trouble figuring out how OOS friendly a school is. Is the number of OOS interviews a good indicator?

Finally, my gpa and MCAT are between the 10th and 90th percentile at virtually every school, so that complicates things more.

I just generally want advice and tips on how to decode the MSAR to generate a great list of schools to apply to.

Have you tried using the LizzyM score technique? I think this is the updated spreadsheet for it

http://is.gd/sdn_med_matriculant_data

Calculate your score and then compare it to the other schools. It will give you a good estimate of what schools you should be looking at.

 

[NYCNative]

you should shoot to apply to about 40 schools if you really want to guarantee an acceptance (think every private school, even some that you think are out of your league, and a bunch of other state schools in NE). You'll be able to cancel many of your interviews if you happen to hear back from somewhere on October 15th. The best way to apply to that many schools is to start pre-writing the secondary essays..... now! You can find all the prompts in the school specific threads.

 

[jlescher]

As an OOS applicant, state schools will not be friendly to you. You will have little to no chance, but you might get lucky with a few (depending on how many schools you apply to). Regional schools were more friendly to me. So, as an OOS applicant you'd probably have the best luck with NY and PA schools based on numbers alone. They are close to you and they have a lot of schools.

I think UMass predominately takes IS applicants so that's not a bad school to have residency with.

If you want to maximize you're chances and don't care where you end up, then apply to the schools in MA and as many private schools as you can where you are at or above the stats average. A couple reaches too. You need to dream!

 

[ace12345]

you should shoot to apply to about 40 schools if you really want to guarantee an acceptance (think every private school, even some that you think are out of your league, and a bunch of other state schools in NE). You'll be able to cancel many of your interviews if you happen to hear back from somewhere on October 15th. The best way to apply to that many schools is to start pre-writing the secondary essays..... now! You can find all the prompts in the school specific threads.

I think 40 schools is too much. I know people with very similar stats to you - albeit with great ECs - that garnered 10-15 interviews while applying to roughly 25 schools. If the rest of your application is strong, I don't think you'll have an issue.

 

[SN12357]

you should shoot to apply to about 40 schools if you really want to guarantee an acceptance (think every private school, even some that you think are out of your league, and a bunch of other state schools in NE). You'll be able to cancel many of your interviews if you happen to hear back from somewhere on October 15th. The best way to apply to that many schools is to start pre-writing the secondary essays..... now! You can find all the prompts in the school specific threads.

40 schools is absurdly high for an applicant with good stats and no red flags on their application. 15-25 is the range to consider with the high end of that range being for people without or with few likely in-state options.

OP, you are looking at the wrong numbers. You want to look primarily at the medianss for MCAT and GPA, not the 10th and 90th percentile. 10th percentile will be useful to tell you if a school really cares about the high end of the GPA range, though. Also use the matriculant numbers provided by the MSAR to calculate the % of applicants who are in-state vs. out of state. The raw number of interviews won't tell you anything. At that point you should consider your stats and ties to the state in deciding whether to apply. Some people say that having 'strong ties' without being a resident isn't worth anything when applying to OOS state schools, but I disagree. I'm currently holding two OOS state school acceptances and at both schools I carefully targeted my essays and clearly illustrated why I was interested in the schools in particular due to ties to the state or school. I think this combined with my above-average stats for the schools why I have acceptances; absent strong ties or above average stats I would not apply to OOS state schools.

I understand that USNews provides additional data but IMO it's not necessary; the MSAR has plenty of information by itself.

 

[V5RED]

Acceptance #'s =/= matriculant #'s.

The MSAR only publishes the stats of people accepted to schools, but these are highly misleading.

The non-top tier schools accept a ton of highly qualified applicants who don't end up attending these schools, so the average GPA for acceptees is vastly inflated.

For example, the school I will be is listed in the MSAR as having an average acceptance MCAT/GPA of 33/3.76, but their class profile last year had an average MCAT/GPA of 30/3.59.

 

[Jennyfishy]

OOS state schools can definitely be very tricky, as the number of applicants relative to the IIs they offer to us folk tends to be extremely low. However, even if you don't have strong ties (I had no ties to the two OOS state schools I interviewed at), you can research more into the school, their curriculum/emphasis and see if your personal career interests, ECs, etc. strongly align with their school's goals (also helps if they are known to be more holistic in their app reviews). I tailored my secondaries to be very specific to my interests in PC and why the school is a perfect fit for me, despite my below average MCAT (28) for both schools (32/33). This will help trim down the suggested 40 schools down to 20-25, which should be financially reasonable and more than enough if you research extensively. Good luck!

 

[DokterMom]

Your numbers are competitive (between the 10th and 90th percentiles) for just about any school in the country.

• So start with where you want to go to medical school. East coast? East or West? South? Midwest?
  
• How important is cost? (Some of the Boston schools are outrageously expensive!)
• How competitive and/or unique are your ECs and research? Are they so compelling and interesting that you're Top-20-worthy? (They do accept some 3.65/34 students.) Or are they so 'ordinary' or marginal that you should aim mostly for schools where your numbers are above average? (Where they'll overlook a bit of weakness to improve their numbers with yours.)
• Any URM advantage? Legacy preference?
• Any mission-specific factors? Religious orientation? Rural medicine? Primary care? LGTBQ health?

Again, you're starting from a place where you have the luxury of choice. I'd start from what you want first, then use MSAR to whittle down to 25 or so.

 

[Espadaleader]

Don't be cheap. Buy the US News Compass. Seriously. It tells you yield which is vital. For example, UVA accepts 400 of 600 interviewees and is 50% out of state. Getting the yield info is very important.

 

[SN12357]

Don't be cheap. Buy the US News Compass. Seriously. It tells you yield which is vital. For example, UVA accepts 400 of 600 interviewees and is 50% out of state. Getting the yield info is very important.

I don't see why post-interview acceptance rate matters. It becomes an interesting factoid after you GET the interview, but in deciding to apply it's pretty much meaningless. The schools that have lower post-interview acceptance rates interview more people. The schools who have higher post-interview acceptance rate interview fewer to begin with. Doesn't change your overall chances before that interview offer comes in (or doesn't).

 

[Espadaleader]

I don't see why post-interview acceptance rate matters. It becomes an interesting factoid after you GET the interview, but in deciding to apply it's pretty much meaningless. The schools that have lower post-interview acceptance rates interview more people. The schools who have lower post-interview acceptance rate interview fewer to begin with. Doesn't change your overall chances before that interview offer comes in (or doesn't).

It is important to know this information because schools cost money.For example, I chose to apply at UVA because if I got an interview, good chances I would get in + its friendly to OOS.

US News Compass is a great complement. I cannot beleive I have to explain the merits of a resource that gives average MCAT, GPA, and acceptance data (for every medical school) for 25 dollars.

Also, combining US News + MSAR gives you all of the measures of central tendency (median/percentiles, averages, acceptance data) that you need to fully understand the scope of the schools you're applying too.

 

[SN12357]

It is important to know this information because schools cost money.For example, I chose to apply at UVA because if I got an interview, good chances I would get in + its friendly to OOS.

US News Compass is a great complement. I cannot beleive I have to explain the merits of a resource that gives average MCAT, GPA, and acceptance data (for every medical school) for 25 dollars.

Also, combining US News + MSAR gives you all of the measures of central tendency (median/percentiles, averages, acceptance data) that you need to fully understand the scope of the schools you're applying too.

I still do not see why the post-interview acceptance rate of a school is a useful metric by which to choose schools pre-interview. Friendly to OOS, yes, that is valuable information that is also in the MSAR. But if School A and School B both get 6000 applications and eventually accept 400 people, what does it matter if they interview 1000 or only 600 on the way to that 400? Consider how many other factors to consider when choosing schools--geography, stats, culture, resources, OOS vs. in-state...interview style just shouldn't register. You say you choose UVa because their post-acceptance interview rate is high but that also meant that your chances of an interview there in the first place were lower than elsewhere.

The MSAR has median and percentiles and the overall acceptance data. I don't see one as being superior to the other but I also don't see the need for both.

 

[milski]

I still do not see why the post-interview acceptance rate of a school is a useful metric by which to choose schools pre-interview. Friendly to OOS, yes, that is valuable information that is also in the MSAR. But if School A and School B both get 6000 applications and eventually accept 400 people, what does it matter if they interview 1000 or only 600 on the way to that 400? Consider how many other factors to consider when choosing schools--geography, stats, culture, resources, OOS vs. in-state...interview style just shouldn't register. You say you choose UVa because their post-acceptance interview rate is high but that also meant that your chances of an interview there in the first place were lower than elsewhere.

The MSAR has median and percentiles and the overall acceptance data. I don't see one as being superior to the other but I also don't see the need for both.

Because if we assume that I am equally competitive for schools A & B, it is more likely that school B will reject me pre-interview and same me the expenses for a fruitless interview. That relies on the interview not being a significant game changer in how likely I am going to get an acceptance.

 

[About28]

Have you tried using the LizzyM score technique? I think this is the updated spreadsheet for it.

Yeah I tried the LizzyM score ((gpa*10)+MCAT) and I got 70.5, it's just kinda hard to find reliable LizzyM scores for schools. I thought the MSAR would help but it only raised more questions

I know people with very similar stats to you - albeit with great ECs - that garnered 10-15 interviews while applying to roughly 25 schools. If the rest of your application is strong, I don't think you'll have an issue.

My EC's are about average to above average. I'm likely going to be a reapplicant so some hope is nice. I applied super late so it was completely my fault for only getting one interview this cycle. I'm trying to prepare a great list of schools for myself and get my app in on the first possible second.

Your numbers are competitive (between the 10th and 90th percentiles) for just about any school in the country.

• So start with where you want to go to medical school. East coast? East or West? South? Midwest?
  
• How important is cost? (Some of the Boston schools are outrageously expensive!)
• How competitive and/or unique are your ECs and research? Are they so compelling and interesting that you're Top-20-worthy? (They do accept some 3.65/34 students.) Or are they so 'ordinary' or marginal that you should aim mostly for schools where your numbers are above average? (Where they'll overlook a bit of weakness to improve their numbers with yours.)
• Any URM advantage? Legacy preference?
• Any mission-specific factors? Religious orientation? Rural medicine? Primary care? LGTBQ health?

Again, you're starting from a place where you have the luxury of choice. I'd start from what you want first, then use MSAR to whittle down to 25 or so.

1. I'm fine with just about anywhere except the west coast
2. If it's a MA school, cost isn't super important but other than that it is
3. I wouldn't call them top 20 worthy. Average or slightly above average shadowing and volunteering with a few very unique experiences.
4. I am white and the child of a civil servant and a carpenter so no love from schools there
5. I am Roman Catholic and a Eucharistic minister but I wasn't planning on mentioning that/ I'm not extremely religious. Would that help me anywhere?

And thanks for the replies everyone! Any other tips on how to use the MSAR to its fullest potential?

 

[I Love Cats]

you should shoot to apply to about 40 schools if you really want to guarantee an acceptance (think every private school, even some that you think are out of your league, and a bunch of other state schools in NE). You'll be able to cancel many of your interviews if you happen to hear back from somewhere on October 15th. The best way to apply to that many schools is to start pre-writing the secondary essays..... now! You can find all the prompts in the school specific threads.

Do not apply to 40 unless you want to. That's unnecessary for your stats in my opinion. Gpa is average and MCAT is nice and pretty. As long as your science gpa isn't low, then apply to wherever you want within +/- like 4-6 LizzyM points and where you aren't below (off the charts) the 10th percentile for any school's accepting stats.

 

[DurgaRangoli]

you should shoot to apply to about 40 schools if you really want to guarantee an acceptance (think every private school, even some that you think are out of your league, and a bunch of other state schools in NE). You'll be able to cancel many of your interviews if you happen to hear back from somewhere on October 15th. The best way to apply to that many schools is to start pre-writing the secondary essays..... now! You can find all the prompts in the school specific threads.

I definitely agree with this. Lots of people will tell you not to apply to 40 schools, but regardless of what people say, it does give you a better shot. It's much better to have security then to be freaking out all year. Also, please pre-write your secondaries and make them amazing. It's much more important than some people think. You should have a good shot to get accepted with your stats, but you don't want to be lurking around the reapp thread next year, where there are plenty of people with fine stats who just slipped through the cracks.

 

[About28]

I definitely agree with this. Lots of people will tell you not to apply to 40 schools, but regardless of what people say, it does give you a better shot. It's much better to have security then to be freaking out all year. Also, please pre-write your secondaries and make them amazing. It's much more important than some people think. You should have a good shot to get accepted with your stats, but you don't want to be lurking around the reapp thread next year, where there are plenty of people with fine stats who just slipped through the cracks.

Thanks for the reply. Yeah some people would say I have pretty decent stats but this cycle has been terrible for me because I made every application mistake possible. Applied super late, school list was too top heavy (I got brave after I got my MCAT back), and took my time returning secondaries. I'm trying to fix all that this next time around, assuming I don't get in this cycle.

 

[nemo123]

you should shoot to apply to about 40 schools if you really want to guarantee an acceptance (think every private school, even some that you think are out of your league, and a bunch of other state schools in NE). You'll be able to cancel many of your interviews if you happen to hear back from somewhere on October 15th. The best way to apply to that many schools is to start pre-writing the secondary essays..... now! You can find all the prompts in the school specific threads.

The problem with 40 schools is that although on theory it looks like you're maximizing your chances, in reality, the quality of your secondaries will suffer and you will want to pull your hair out by your 20th secondary.

 

[DurgaRangoli]

The problem with 40 schools is that although on theory it looks like you're maximizing your chances, in reality, the quality of your secondaries will suffer and you will want to pull your hair out by your 20th secondary.

That's why you pre-write your secondaries. I applied to more than 40 schools and it wasn't that big of a deal. You'll have a few painful weeks, but then it's over. It paid off for me more than I ever imagined it would. The idea that applying to a large number of schools necessarily means your secondaries will be poorly written is simply not true. Yeah, it gets stressful, but that's the beauty of having all of the school specific threads at your fingertips. If there's anything I've learned from this process, it is pre-write, pre-write, pre-write. You'll thank yourself later.

 

[MedBrah]

That's why you pre-write your secondaries. I applied to more than 40 schools and it wasn't that big of a deal. You'll have a few painful weeks, but then it's over. It paid off for me more than I ever imagined it would. The idea that applying to a large number of schools necessarily means your secondaries will be poorly written is simply not true. Yeah, it gets stressful, but that's the beauty of having all of the school specific threads at your fingertips. If there's anything I've learned from this process, it is pre-write, pre-write, pre-write. You'll thank yourself later.

And realistically the same questions and variations of questions appear in so many secondaries. I mean, there's only a limited amount of ways that schools can ask 'how do you bring diversity' and 'why x school'

 

[NYCNative]

The problem with 40 schools is that although on theory it looks like you're maximizing your chances, in reality, the quality of your secondaries will suffer and you will want to pull your hair out by your 20th secondary.

Not if you pre-write like a boss. People, the goal is to get into the best school possible, not just any school. With average (good) stats like yours, and perfect secondaries, you might have a shot at a more prestigious school, and all the advantages that go along with that. The question is... which school? You basically have to spam all of them (except for the stat-******), to possibly get into one of them. You personally have maybe a 2% shot at any one of them individually, but that leads to a 60% chance overall (not counting the unranked safety schools you need to apply to).

You have to see this as a numbers game -- for example, according to the "apply to 20-25 max schools" approach, you are implicitly assuming that if you get into school ranked #16, that you will also get into #17, so you only apply to one of them. That approach is completely out-dated. Not only does the above example not hold true, but people who get into top schools are completely ignored by much lower ranked schools. By not applying to essentially all of the privates and a large number of well-selected publics, you may wind up attending an unranked school even though you may have gotten into a top school.

Personally, I would actually up the number of schools for a maximized cycle to 50+, but I was trying to be moderate.

I know a lot of people on SDN say that all that matters is that you get into a school, and it doesn't matter where. Don't listen to them--- that's basically just their inner DO talking IMHO.

If that's you, then forget everything I just said. But if you are a gunner #1 stunner pre-med, then you'll apply 50+.

 

[Chipster.]

Not if you pre-write like a boss. People, the goal is to get into the best school possible, not just any school. With average (good) stats like yours, and perfect secondaries, you might have a shot at a more prestigious school, and all the advantages that go along with that. The question is... which school? You basically have to spam all of them (except for the stat-******), to possibly get into one of them. You personally have maybe a 2% shot at any one of them individually, but that leads to a 60% chance overall (not counting the unranked safety schools you need to apply to).

You have to see this as a numbers game -- for example, according to the "apply to 20-25 max schools" approach, you are implicitly assuming that if you get into school ranked #16, that you will also get into #17, so you only apply to one of them. That approach is completely out-dated. People who get into top schools are completely ignored by much lower ranked schools. By not applying to essentially all of the privates and a large number of well-selected publics, you may wind up attending an unranked school even though you may have gotten into a top school.

Personally, I would actually up the number of schools for a maximized cycle to 50+, but I was trying to be moderate.

I know a lot of people on SDN say that all that matters is that you get into a school, and it doesn't matter where. Don't listen to them--- that's basically just their inner DO talking IMHO.

If that's you, then forget everything I just said. But if you are a gunner #1 stunner pre-med, then you'll apply 50+.

OP, please ignore literally that entire post.

 

[DokterMom]

You need one good, good-fit school, not 10 to choose from.
- Sure, you don't want to under-sell yourself because the 'safety' schools know you won't choose them if you have a choice (and they'll expect that if you're not completely awkward, you will have a choice.)
- And you don't want to over-reach because it's just too darn painful.
- It won't be a numbers game as much as for applicants with higher (thin air) stats or lower (safety school) stats, because your numbers are appropriate for almost any school.

With stats that are very good, but not exceptional, like the OPs, FIT is going to be particularly important. That's how you can honestly answer the "Why us?" question with some sincerity and a straight face. So spend your time finding the right fit.

Maybe even describe your ideal school BEFORE identifying where you want to apply. Example: "My ideal med school will be located in the northeast but not in a big city, be heavily into research, prioritize women's health, have a P/F curriculum, and have lots of patient interaction even in the first year. Required lecture attendance is not a problem for me since I learn best that way anyway." Then look for schools that fit that mold. Makes your "Why us?" essay a breeze.

 

[About28]

You need one good, good-fit school, not 10 to choose from.
- Sure, you don't want to under-sell yourself because the 'safety' schools know you won't choose them if you have a choice (and they'll expect that if you're not completely awkward, you will have a choice.)
- And you don't want to over-reach because it's just too darn painful.
- It won't be a numbers game as much as for applicants with higher (thin air) stats or lower (safety school) stats, because your numbers are appropriate for almost any school.

With stats that are very good, but not exceptional, like the OPs, FIT is going to be particularly important. That's how you can honestly answer the "Why us?" question with some sincerity and a straight face. So spend your time finding the right fit.

Maybe even describe your ideal school BEFORE identifying where you want to apply. Example: "My ideal med school will be located in the northeast but not in a big city, be heavily into research, prioritize women's health, have a P/F curriculum, and have lots of patient interaction even in the first year. Required lecture attendance is not a problem for me since I learn best that way anyway." Then look for schools that fit that mold. Makes your "Why us?" essay a breeze.

Wow thanks for the advice, I think this is an awesome way to go about it. My only issue is that it looks like I'm going to be a reapplicant with these stats, so playing the numbers game is really tempting. While I'm pretty sure I won't get in this cycle because of huge application mistakes (super late app+ somewhat small school list+somewhat top heavy school list), a part of me thinks that I'm just not good enough to get in. Finding a good strategy is basically what I need to do and I think you outlined a great one.

 

[NYCNative]

You need one good, good-fit school, not 10 to choose from.

Good luck getting into that one "good, good-fit" school is all I can say.

I'm not directing this at you at this point since it seems you have already chosen the blue pill. Fine. But I've seen people get into awesome schools that they only dreamed about, only to be ignored by the top "good, good-fit" schools where they thought they were a perfect fit (for regional and/or school mission reasons). Like every other school, your "good, good-fit" schools receive thousands of well-written, well-researched secondaries, and so they have no way of knowing about your secret psychic hard-on for them. If magical thinking is your thing then maybe you should look into Liberty.

 

[NYCNative]

- And you don't want to over-reach because it's just too darn painful.

Fear of rejection is the worst reason to give someone to not apply to schools. In fact, that is basically the best advice you can give someone on how to NOT to get into medical school.


And for those gunners whose first instinct is not to bury their head in the sand, once those secondaries are sent, they are basically forgotten about.

 

[NYCNative]

With stats that are very good, but not exceptional, like the OPs, FIT is going to be particularly important. That's how you can honestly answer the "Why us?" question with some sincerity and a straight face. So spend your time finding the right fit.

Maybe even describe your ideal school BEFORE identifying where you want to apply. Example: "My ideal med school will be located in the northeast but not in a big city, be heavily into research, prioritize women's health, have a P/F curriculum, and have lots of patient interaction even in the first year. Required lecture attendance is not a problem for me since I learn best that way anyway." Then look for schools that fit that mold. Makes your "Why us?" essay a breeze.

This all sounds good, and look, I agree to a point. But here is how I am approaching this -- you can basically say this about every single medical school with the exception of maybe 20 of which you know you might hate for whatever reason. That still leaves about 100. Pick 50 of those. And then tell them why you both are a perfect match.

The bottom line is that if you think there are only 10-20 schools that will provide you with your "good, good-fit", then you have 1. done a terrible job researching the schools and 2. have a penchant for self-delusion. Also, if you place all of your stock in this whole "good, good-fit" thing, you are setting yourself up for an even bigger disappointment than above when you don't get in, or a potentially rude awakening when you do, and realize that the experience of the actual institution doesn't necessarily match your expectations.

 

[NYCNative]

The last thing I'm going to say is that I think that it behooves OP to play a numbers game more than most since he does in fact have a red-flag (that I missed before) as a re-applicant.

 

[Chipster.]

See my advice above, OP.

 

[NYCNative]

Your perceived fitness has no bearing on whether or not schools will accept you -- that's why I advocate the mass app approach. Once you are holding a few acceptances, you can begin in earnest the conversation re: fitness. Anything else is essentially counting your eggs before they are hatched.

 

[DurgaRangoli]

I wish I could like NYCNative's posts a million times. OP, don't listen to the haters. If you can afford to apply to lots of schools, do it. Trust me, you'll be much happier sitting sitting on several acceptances (potentially, as we know, we are all lucky to get one) than hoping for an interview in March. After you're accepted, then you can think about location, pass/fail, etc. All that stuff is important, but it doesn't mean diddly squat if you don't get in anywhere.

 

[JustaUnicorn]

Acceptance #'s =/= matriculant #'s.

The MSAR only publishes the stats of people accepted to schools, but these are highly misleading.

The non-top tier schools accept a ton of highly qualified applicants who don't end up attending these schools, so the average GPA for acceptees is vastly inflated.

For example, the school I will be is listed in the MSAR as having an average acceptance MCAT/GPA of 33/3.76, but their class profile last year had an average MCAT/GPA of 30/3.59.

It would be great if the MSAR was altered to include those matriculated as well. Maybe they will include that in the future if enough prospective students request it?

 

[JustaUnicorn]

I definitely agree with this. Lots of people will tell you not to apply to 40 schools, but regardless of what people say, it does give you a better shot. It's much better to have security then to be freaking out all year. Also, please pre-write your secondaries and make them amazing. It's much more important than some people think. You should have a good shot to get accepted with your stats, but you don't want to be lurking around the reapp thread next year, where there are plenty of people with fine stats who just slipped through the cracks.

I havent applied yet, so I'm not sure exactly how the process works. Are secondary essays available early, thereby making it possible to pre-write? I'd like to try to pre-write, but I thought secondary prompts were revealed later. How does one go about doing this?

 

[Chipster.]

I havent applied yet, so I'm not sure exactly how the process works. Are secondary essays available early, thereby making it possible to pre-write? I'd like to try to pre-write, but I thought secondary prompts were revealed later. How does one go about doing this?

Look at the school specific threads from this year. They list all the secondary questions for each school, which rarely change from year to year so you can start them now if you want.

 

[DurgaRangoli]

I havent applied yet, so I'm not sure exactly how the process works. Are secondary essays available early, thereby making it possible to pre-write? I'd like to try to pre-write, but I thought secondary prompts were revealed later. How does one go about doing this?

All secondary prompts for the previous year are available on the SDN school specific threads. Most schools keep the same prompts from year to year. A few schools change them up, but not many. Make your list of schools and then look at all the school specific threads for them. You should start with the more general essays, like "What diversity will you contribute," and "Talk about what you've done since graduation" (if you've graduated already). Once you start with those types of essays, you'll see that many of the others are variations of those with different word counts. As you're adapting your essays to different lengths, you'll think of better, more concise ways of saying things, which you can use to go back and edit the first versions you've written. It's a long process of going back and forth, but once you get a good handle on them, you'll see how easy it becomes. Then you just have to write the outlier essays when the time comes, which are those that are kind of wacky and/or change from year to year. You can also check out previous year's essays to see how long the prompts have stayed the same. Also, for the "Why this school" essays, pick one you really like and write it. Then, adapt it to other schools. In other words, using the same structure, insert things specific about other schools. If you're applying this coming cycle, you're thinking about this at the perfect time. Now's the time to write your personal statement for the primary and hardcore start pre-writing. You'll be so happy you did.

 

[nemo123]

Not if you pre-write like a boss. People, the goal is to get into the best school possible, not just any school. With average (good) stats like yours, and perfect secondaries, you might have a shot at a more prestigious school, and all the advantages that go along with that. The question is... which school? You basically have to spam all of them (except for the stat-******), to possibly get into one of them. You personally have maybe a 2% shot at any one of them individually, but that leads to a 60% chance overall (not counting the unranked safety schools you need to apply to).

You have to see this as a numbers game -- for example, according to the "apply to 20-25 max schools" approach, you are implicitly assuming that if you get into school ranked #16, that you will also get into #17, so you only apply to one of them. That approach is completely out-dated. Not only does the above example not hold true, but people who get into top schools are completely ignored by much lower ranked schools. By not applying to essentially all of the privates and a large number of well-selected publics, you may wind up attending an unranked school even though you may have gotten into a top school.

Personally, I would actually up the number of schools for a maximized cycle to 50+, but I was trying to be moderate.

I know a lot of people on SDN say that all that matters is that you get into a school, and it doesn't matter where. Don't listen to them--- that's basically just their inner DO talking IMHO.

If that's you, then forget everything I just said. But if you are a gunner #1 stunner pre-med, then you'll apply 50+.

Yes, and that pre-writing period will make you want to pull your hair out too. You won't go back and rewrite any essays when you're so burnt out from writing 15 essays beforehand.

"Gunner #1 stunner pre-med," stop trolling.

 

[DurgaRangoli]

Yes, and that pre-writing period will make you want to pull your hair out too. You won't go back and rewrite any essays when you're so burnt out from writing 15 essays beforehand.

"Gunner #1 stunner pre-med," stop trolling.

Studying sometimes makes you want to pull your hair out too, but you do it because you want to do well to get into medical school. It's not the time to cheap out now after you've come this far. Seriously, I'm convinced that people don't like to hear things that are different from their own strategies because it makes them question their own decisions and sometimes feel like they could have done more to get into a school or a better school. We can have different opinions, but that doesn't mean everyone you don't agree with is a "troll."

Edit: Personally attacking people you don't agree with and labeling them "trolls" only serves to do the opposite of the purpose of these forums. If someone does something that works well for them, how can you argue with that? I love these forums, but sometimes there is such a tyranny of the majority on here. Sheesh.

 

[MangoPlant]

I know a lot of people on SDN say that all that matters is that you get into a school, and it doesn't matter where. Don't listen to them--- that's basically just their inner DO talking IMHO.

If that's you, then forget everything I just said. But if you are a gunner #1 stunner pre-med, then you'll apply 50+.

hahaha this is the funniest thing I've read on this forum. Thanks for the laughs .

 

[nemo123]

Studying sometimes makes you want to pull your hair out too, but you do it because you want to do well to get into medical school. It's not the time to cheap out now after you've come this far. Seriously, I'm convinced that people don't like to hear things that are different from their own strategies because it makes them question their own decisions and sometimes feel like they could have done more to get into a school or a better school. We can have different opinions, but that doesn't mean everyone you don't agree with is a "troll."

Edit: Personally attacking people you don't agree with and labeling them "trolls" only serves to do the opposite of the purpose of these forums. If someone does something that works well for them, how can you argue with that? I love these forums, but sometimes there is such a tyranny of the majority on here. Sheesh.

Did you even read his last two paragraphs? We can disagree if we want to on whether to apply to 50 schools or not. The reason why we have threads like this is so we can weigh the pros and cons of each argument.

But if you read my post again, I am not calling him a troll because he said to apply to 50 schools. It's because his last two paragraphs are filled with lots of gibberish and nonsense.

 

[orangeman25]

That's why you pre-write your secondaries. I applied to more than 40 schools and it wasn't that big of a deal. You'll have a few painful weeks, but then it's over. It paid off for me more than I ever imagined it would. The idea that applying to a large number of schools necessarily means your secondaries will be poorly written is simply not true. Yeah, it gets stressful, but that's the beauty of having all of the school specific threads at your fingertips. If there's anything I've learned from this process, it is pre-write, pre-write, pre-write. You'll thank yourself later.

When you mean pre-write, do you mean you basically just looked at the a school specific thread from last year to see if the secondary from last year was posted?

 

[knv2u]

When you mean pre-write, do you mean you basically just looked at the a school specific thread from last year to see if the secondary from last year was posted?

Yes, that's what he is saying. Usually these don't change that much.

 

[Espadaleader]

Let me clear things up. I feel like some people may get confused by what we're talking about.

I am preaching to the choir here but just hear me out.

If you're applying to 40 schools looking at 1,500+ in primary fees and 4,000+ secondary fees alone before you interview. An absolute minimum of 5,500 dollars before interview. With FAP, you're looking at just 1,500, but if you quality for FAP then that 1,500 is gonna hit you hard. Interview expenses can range anything from 1,000-10,000 depending on location, flights etc.

20-25 schools is enough breadth and depth for any first-time applicant. If you choose schools correctly, apply early, and pre-write secondaries you will be fine.

For a potential re-applicant like the OP, applying to 40 schools is almost universally not recommended BUT depended on circumstances etc. may be warranted.

I think the general consensus is that applying to 20-25 schools is the norm, although in special circumstances (re-applicant etc.) applying to 40 is warranted.

All secondary prompts for the previous year are available on the SDN school specific threads. Most schools keep the same prompts from year to year. A few schools change them up, but not many. Make your list of schools and then look at all the school specific threads for them. You should start with the more general essays, like "What diversity will you contribute," and "Talk about what you've done since graduation" (if you've graduated already). Once you start with those types of essays, you'll see that many of the others are variations of those with different word counts. As you're adapting your essays to different lengths, you'll think of better, more concise ways of saying things, which you can use to go back and edit the first versions you've written. It's a long process of going back and forth, but once you get a good handle on them, you'll see how easy it becomes. Then you just have to write the outlier essays when the time comes, which are those that are kind of wacky and/or change from year to year. You can also check out previous year's essays to see how long the prompts have stayed the same. Also, for the "Why this school" essays, pick one you really like and write it. Then, adapt it to other schools. In other words, using the same structure, insert things specific about other schools. If you're applying this coming cycle, you're thinking about this at the perfect time. Now's the time to write your personal statement for the primary and hardcore start pre-writing. You'll be so happy you did.

This is solid gold. If you pre-write, you can minimize burden. You more or less copy and paste each secondary. I pre-wrote two secondaries (Duke and Case). Those secondaries became my templates. When each secondary came in, I would edit from that master template. I applied to 24 schools and had a 48 hour turnaround.

 

[Omppu27]

Acceptance #'s =/= matriculant #'s.

The MSAR only publishes the stats of people accepted to schools, but these are highly misleading.

The non-top tier schools accept a ton of highly qualified applicants who don't end up attending these schools, so the average GPA for acceptees is vastly inflated.

For example, the school I will be is listed in the MSAR as having an average acceptance MCAT/GPA of 33/3.76, but their class profile last year had an average MCAT/GPA of 30/3.59.

I wanna guess your school... Only because I'm very interested in applying to it (or at least what I think it is)... GW or Georgetown?

 

[DokterMom]

The 'Apply to 40' school of thought also appears to presume a strong desire for prestige -- a default assumption that of course! a Top 2o will be better than an upper mid-tier, therefore, OP would be wise to apply to every Top 20 because you just might get lucky and strike a chord with the person reading your application.

I guess I can see that point of view if prestige is that important to you and application fees aren't. And if 'fit' is flexible and/or uncertain or you want an academic or research career where school prestige may carry more weight. A matter of personal opinion and circumstances

 

[Spades455]

40 schools is absurdly high for an applicant with good stats and no red flags on their application. 15-25 is the range to consider with the high end of that range being for people without or with few likely in-state options.

OP, you are looking at the wrong numbers. You want to look primarily at the medianss for MCAT and GPA, not the 10th and 90th percentile. 10th percentile will be useful to tell you if a school really cares about the high end of the GPA range, though. Also use the matriculant numbers provided by the MSAR to calculate the % of applicants who are in-state vs. out of state. The raw number of interviews won't tell you anything. At that point you should consider your stats and ties to the state in deciding whether to apply. Some people say that having 'strong ties' without being a resident isn't worth anything when applying to OOS state schools, but I disagree. I'm currently holding two OOS state school acceptances and at both schools I carefully targeted my essays and clearly illustrated why I was interested in the schools in particular due to ties to the state or school. I think this combined with my above-average stats for the schools why I have acceptances; absent strong ties or above average stats I would not apply to OOS state schools.

I understand that USNews provides additional data but IMO it's not necessary; the MSAR has plenty of information by itself.

Can you elaborate on what the "strong ties" means? Does this mean communicating that you want to live there after graduation?

 

[SN12357]

Can you elaborate on what the "strong ties" means? Does this mean communicating that you want to live there after graduation?

Not necessarily--more like communicating that you know and care for the area, that you would be happy to live there, and that you have a specific interest in the school. In my case at one of the schools I had a good friend who goes to the school and loves it. The other is a state school that several of my family members have attended for undergrad located in an area that I frequently visit to see family. I communicated these things in my essays. I also ended up turning down an interview at the state school of my homestate, where my parents live but I do not anymore. Again in that case I emphasized that my family was still in that state and I would be happy to go to med school there.

I think this is a strategy that works for schools that have reason to want to know you genuinely care about them and didn't pick them as safeties. It's not a strategy I see going over well in CA, for example, because they assume everyone just wants to live in California...

 

[About28]

Let me clear things up. I feel like some people may get confused by what we're talking about.

I am preaching to the choir here but just hear me out.

If you're applying to 40 schools looking at 1,500+ in primary fees and 4,000+ secondary fees alone before you interview. An absolute minimum of 5,500 dollars before interview. With FAP, you're looking at just 1,500, but if you quality for FAP then that 1,500 is gonna hit you hard. Interview expenses can range anything from 1,000-10,000 depending on location, flights etc.

20-25 schools is enough breadth and depth for any first-time applicant. If you choose schools correctly, apply early, and pre-write secondaries you will be fine.

For a potential re-applicant like the OP, applying to 40 schools is almost universally not recommended BUT depended on circumstances etc. may be warranted.

I think the general consensus is that applying to 20-25 schools is the norm, although in special circumstances (re-applicant etc.) applying to 40 is warranted.

I only plan on reapplying to about 5 schools and my only red flags were that I applied super late and applied too top heavy, and I still managed to get an interview. Would you still recommend applying to upwards of 40 schools even though I will be a first time applicant at 30-35 of them?

 

[About28]

Your perceived fitness has no bearing on whether or not schools will accept you -- that's why I advocate the mass app approach. Once you are holding a few acceptances, you can begin in earnest the conversation re: fitness. Anything else is essentially counting your eggs before they are hatched.

That's a good point. At this point I'll probably work real hard on a select few schools that are a good fit, and apply to a bunch of others. Can't hurt if I can afford it and I start now, right?