Why is there such a negative perception about being a Doctor?

[SteinmetzMD]

Wondering if anyone else has this problem:

Someone asks you what you are planning to do with your life, you tell them you want to go Pre-Med and eventually go to Medical School, and they flip out! They warn you about how awful and hard the courses are, how terrible the job is, and often times they have no medical experience whatsoever!

Why is there such a negative perception around going into Medicine? You would think a society would celebrate such a decision, not feverishly try to make you change your mind. I understand the classes are tough, but that shouldn't deter someone from pursuing ther dreams, right?

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[FictiousForce]

Because everyone says that's what they want to do, but very few actually get there.

They're incredulous. You have to prove yourself—that's why the idea of a 'pre-med' is silly. Nobody is a pre-med until they get into med school.

 

[KnuxNole]

Wondering if anyone else has this problem:

Someone asks you what you are planning to do with your life, you tell them you want to go Pre-Med and eventually go to Medical School, and they flip out! They warn you about how awful and hard the courses are, how terrible the job is, and often times they have no medical experience whatsoever!

Why is there such a negative perception around going into Medicine? You would think a society would celebrate such a decision, not feverishly try to make you change your mind. I understand the classes are tough, but that shouldn't deter someone from pursuing ther dreams, right?

If they have no medical experience, dont take what they have to say seriously. Nod, crack a big cheesy smile, and say "That's all nice, but I'll be good. Don't worry bout it!"

 

[SteinmetzMD]

Would you guys say someone who is decently smart, works hard, and stays devoted has a good shot at becoming an MD?

 

[Planes2Doc]

It's funny when it comes directly from a doctor.

 

[KnuxNole]

It's funny when it comes directly from a doctor.

That's why it's always good to get career advice from happy people in addition to disgruntled moody people

 

[KnuxNole]

Would you guys say someone who is decently smart, works hard, and stays devoted has a good shot at becoming an MD?

Yes, they can have a good shot. It's definitely not an easy path, but if you have those three traits, it'll help you stay on that road

 

[Ismet]

Wondering if anyone else has this problem:

Someone asks you what you are planning to do with your life, you tell them you want to go Pre-Med and eventually go to Medical School, and they flip out! They warn you about how awful and hard the courses are, how terrible the job is, and often times they have no medical experience whatsoever!

Why is there such a negative perception around going into Medicine? You would think a society would celebrate such a decision, not feverishly try to make you change your mind. I understand the classes are tough, but that shouldn't deter someone from pursuing ther dreams, right?

Wish I could meet those people. Usually people I talk to (family friends/relatives/people from high school/non pre-meds) greatly underestimate the demands of medical school and the whole process or the amount of studying I have to do.

Basically, don't listen to them, and just do you. Find people that support you and talk to them instead!

 

[sinombre]

Would you guys say someone who is decently smart, works hard, and stays devoted has a good shot at becoming an MD?

Those are some of the vital ingredients, yes. The only thing I would add to that list is: informed. There are lots of important nuances to learn about the application process that can significantly increase your chances of getting in. Applying early, having sufficient ECs, applying broadly, applying to enough schools, etc.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Wish I could meet those people. Usually people I talk to (family friends/relatives/people from high school/non pre-meds) greatly underestimate the demands of medical school and the whole process or the amount of studying I have to do.

Basically, don't listen to them, and just do you. Find people that support you and talk to them instead!

Yeah people definitely underestimate it. There are times that I ask myself: "Why the hell would anyone do this to themselves?" That happens often actually.

Then I assure myself it's worth it in the end. I hope.

 

[SteinmetzMD]

Wow, this isn't a bad response for my first thread! Just out of curiosity how do you change your profile picture for the forum?

And for you Med School students, what'd you major in for Undergrad? I'm thinking a BS in Biology or Kinesiology?

 

[jemstone]

I would say my biggest problem is that medicine is incredibly misunderstood by the general public. I told several people that I was applying to med school back in July, and in January they were like "how are classes going?" And I said "oh I'm not in classes, I graduated last year, I'm taking the year off." And they're like "oh but I thought you were trying to get into nursing school". I've had several experiences similar to this. I just don't bother anymore.

 

[Ismet]

There are times that I ask myself: "Why the hell would anyone do this to themselves?" That happens often actually

That was every single day in microbiology for me. Glad that's over (until boards of course...)

And for you Med School students, what'd you major in for Undergrad? I'm thinking a BS in Biology or Kinesiology?

Major in whatever you're interested in. Don't feel like you need a bio degree or even a science degree for that matter. I majored in neuroscience and minored in music.

 

[SpaceyWacey]

Wish I could meet those people. Usually people I talk to (family friends/relatives/people from high school/non pre-meds) greatly underestimate the demands of medical school and the whole process or the amount of studying I have to do.

Basically, don't listen to them, and just do you. Find people that support you and talk to them instead!

SO true!! Anytime I talk about going to medical school with my relatives, I always get the "you're so smart, you could get into Harvard if you wanted to!" and when I reply that I just hope I get in, they say I'm not pushing myself. HAHAHAHA no.

 

[Dbate]

That's why it's always good to get career advice from happy people in addition to disgruntled moody people

Almost everyone I shadowed has told me how hard it is or not to become a doctor. And they are all in the academic realm.

My friend's father is an orthopedic surgeon and really didn't want his son to follow in his footsteps.

For me, the only reason I am still going to medical school is because I can't think of another overall career that I would enjoy more.

 

[SteinmetzMD]

For me, the only reason I am still going to medical school is because I can't think of another overall career that I would enjoy more.

Same here, same here. Nothing else compares!

 

[thesauce]

Wondering if anyone else has this problem:

Someone asks you what you are planning to do with your life, you tell them you want to go Pre-Med and eventually go to Medical School, and they flip out! They warn you about how awful and hard the courses are, how terrible the job is, and often times they have no medical experience whatsoever!

Why is there such a negative perception around going into Medicine? You would think a society would celebrate such a decision, not feverishly try to make you change your mind. I understand the classes are tough, but that shouldn't deter someone from pursuing ther dreams, right?

This is by design. Our lobbying organizations spend millions of dollars every year trying to convince the public that we go through hellish training to work a high-stress job for low pay. That way, they will not only not support, but actually speak out against, legislation that hurts our profession's lifestyle, autonomy, etc. This is not unique to medicine. Every professional lobbying organization is trying to do the same for their constituents. It's the way the game is played.

 

[ChartaBona]

To some people, saying "I want to be a doctor" sounds the same as "I want to be an astronaut."

 

[AdmAckbar]

.

 

[SteinmetzMD]

Loving your username.... ADMIRAL ACKBAR!!!!!!!!

 

[BecksTriad]

to some people, saying "i want to be a doctor" sounds the same as "i want to be an astronaut."

+1,000,000

 

[Geebeejay]

I've never had this experience - most laymen only speak highly of doctors and encourage me when I say I am going to medical school.

And the only doctors I've had discourage me are the bitter, unhappy ones....doctors with large estates, multiple divorces, and lots of toys but no time to use all them.

Almost everyone I shadowed has told me how hard it is or not to become a doctor. And they are all in the academic realm.

My friend's father is an orthopedic surgeon and really didn't want his son to follow in his footsteps.

For me, the only reason I am still going to medical school is because I can't think of another overall career that I would enjoy more.

That's a pretty bad reason

 

[thesauce]

For me, the only reason I am still going to medical school is because I can't think of another overall career that I would enjoy more.

That's a pretty bad reason

Why is this a bad reason?

 

[Planes2Doc]

That was every single day in microbiology for me. Glad that's over (until boards of course...)

Actually it's more like for every exam during pre-clinical so far.

 

[I Love Cats]

Wow, this isn't a bad response for my first thread! Just out of curiosity how do you change your profile picture for the forum?

And for you Med School students, what'd you major in for Undergrad? I'm thinking a BS in Biology or Kinesiology?

I am not a med student, but I actually did both. Bio will prepare you better for your future from an objective stand point, but please do what you love most. The two degrees at your school may be similar though, so compare. Think about what you want and what you like. Then choose.

EDIT: and since you seem young enough, if you find you don't like one much, you can usually switch around the two year mark without significantly delaying anything or hurting yourself in any way.

 

[Narmerguy]

Wish I could meet those people. Usually people I talk to (family friends/relatives/people from high school/non pre-meds) greatly underestimate the demands of medical school and the whole process or the amount of studying I have to do.

Basically, don't listen to them, and just do you. Find people that support you and talk to them instead!

My experience has been similar. Just don't rely on others to define what's right for you. Seek out informed opinions, seek out information, and make the decision that you think is right.

I've never had this experience - most laymen only speak highly of doctors and encourage me when I say I am going to medical school.

And the only doctors I've had discourage me are the bitter, unhappy ones....doctors with large estates, multiple divorces, and lots of toys but no time to use all them.



That's a pretty bad reason

That seems like a pretty good reason.

 

[bobow98]

1/3 of every freshman class each year at my alma mater (top liberal arts) comes into college wanting to be a doctor. 1/3 of those 1/3 know what they actually have to do to get there. 1/3 again of that 1/3 will actually go through with the difficulties and achieve the feat of getting in.

So yeah that's like 1/27 of the class. I think by now about 20 people from my class are in med school.

 

[amazing tekkers]

You should stop telling people you want to go to med school/become a doctor.

Just tell them that you want to go into medicine. End of.

 

[45408]

I understand the classes are tough, but that shouldn't deter someone from pursuing ther dreams, right?

A challenge should deter some people from pursuing their dreams. I was in your shoes 10 years ago, when I was a pre-med, and I'm still not done, or even within a few years of being done. This is a really, really long pathway, and it's got some very exhausting stretches in it.

Some discouragement is good. If that's all it takes to dissuade someone from this path, then there's no way they would have made it through. I remember being a freshman pre-med in a Spanish class just a few weeks into college, and one junior pre-med was telling me and two other freshman that most of us wouldn't make it. I told myself that I had it in me. He was right though. Most of us didn't make it. He didn't make it, the other freshman guy ended up going to grad school for English or something, and the freshman girl is a nurse.

 

[circulus vitios]

When a doctor warns you, it's because the average doctor thinks that scoring a 31 on the MCAT and getting a 3.65 GPA in biology at State U means they could have had a physician's salary in any other industry because of their slightly above average intelligence.

"Don't go into medicine, there are faster and easier ways to make $200k/year!"

 

[Lollygag]

I've never had this experience - most laymen only speak highly of doctors and encourage me when I say I am going to medical school.

And the only doctors I've had discourage me are the bitter, unhappy ones....doctors with large estates, multiple divorces, and lots of toys but no time to use all them.

And by the spouses and family members of bitter, unhappy doctors lol and they are most likely bitter and unhappy because they went into it for money, prestige or some other silly reason.

Other than that, I've never received that much discouragement. If anything, people are impressed when I say I want to go to medical school.

 

[487806]

SO true!! Anytime I talk about going to medical school with my relatives, I always get the "you're so smart, you could get into Harvard if you wanted to!" and when I reply that I just hope I get in, they say I'm not pushing myself. HAHAHAHA no.

Yeah, that's usually what happens.

 

[SteinmetzMD]

I think it depends on mentality in general.

If you tell someone with a negative attitude, they're more likely to discourage you than someone with a positive outlook. I like to think most people going into Medicine have to have a positive outlook to survive!

 

[thesauce]

When a doctor warns you, it's because the average doctor thinks that scoring a 31 on the MCAT and getting a 3.65 GPA in biology at State U means they could have had a physician's salary in any other industry because of their slightly above average intelligence.

"Don't go into medicine, there are faster and easier ways to make $200k/year!"

I haven't heard that sentiment. What I hear more often is:

"If you devote 80+ hours per week into any other career for a minimum of 7 years, you would thrive and be better off financially"

And, quite frankly, I find it hard to disagree...

 

[circulus vitios]

I haven't heard that sentiment. What I hear more often is:

"If you devote 80+ hours per week into any other career for a minimum of 7 years, you would thrive and be better off financially"

And, quite frankly, I find it hard to disagree...

Name any other career where one can realistically make $200k/year.

 

[Ost3oclast]

I've found the reaction kind of mixed. Some people are really encouraging when I tell them that I'm going to med school, some look at me like I'm a greedy p***k, others think I'm going to be paying back school until I'm 70. Can't satisfy everyone I suppose...

 

[Aevyn]

Personally, I've mostly gotten the "Do it only if it's what you REALLY want to do" speech. I believe the issue with most of the moody doctors who tell you there are better ways to earn money is just that; they went into medicine for the money and not because it's what they really wanted to do.

....but who am I to comment. I'm starting premed this year.

Name any other career where one can realistically make $200k/year.

For many doctors, making that much money doesn't mean much after required expenses are factored into their salary (paying back loans, malpractice, etc)...... but as I said above, it's not like I'm actually a doctor so I'm typing this off of what I've read.

 

[thesauce]

Name any other career where one can realistically make $200k/year.

This is a non-sensical question. Name one that can't.

 

[circulus vitios]

This is a non-sensical question. Name one that can't.

There are careers, but they either require supreme intelligence, exceptional academic pedigree, luck, insanely long hours, unstable job prospects, a strong network, tolerance of dangerous work environments, or all of the above. Medicine is the only profession where you can be of slightly above average intelligence and, with some hard work, still make $200,000 a year by working 50-60 hours a week in a safe and stable white-collar profession with absolutely no reliance on an Ivy league degree or a parent who is on the board of directors.

 

[darklabel]

Wondering if anyone else has this problem:

Someone asks you what you are planning to do with your life, you tell them you want to go Pre-Med and eventually go to Medical School, and they flip out! They warn you about how awful and hard the courses are, how terrible the job is, and often times they have no medical experience whatsoever!

Why is there such a negative perception around going into Medicine? You would think a society would celebrate such a decision, not feverishly try to make you change your mind. I understand the classes are tough, but that shouldn't deter someone from pursuing ther dreams, right?

Sounds like a gunner pre-med who's trying to eliminate the competition.

From supportive people/family members, its almost expected that I'll get into med school in the future. It is rather annoying because unless you've been through the process yourself, you can't really say comments such as "how easy it is" or "oh you're a smart guy/gal, I know you can make it!"

But there 50,000+ other applicants and I'm sure they get told the same thing every night before bed....

 

[Lollygag]

There are careers, but they either require supreme intelligence, exceptional academic pedigree, luck, insanely long hours, unstable job prospects, a strong network, tolerance of dangerous work environments, or all of the above. Medicine is the only profession where you can be of slightly above average intelligence and, with some hard work, still make $200,000 a year by working 50-60 hours a week in a safe and stable white-collar profession with absolutely no reliance on an Ivy league degree or a parent who is on the board of directors.

I'd have to agree with that. Yes, in pretty much every career you can find a way to have a salary of 200k but the crap you have to deal with to get there or remain there would have me question how "easy" it really is. For most people, in order to earn a salary that high they would have to work their butt off, it certainly wouldn't be easy.

 

[thesauce]

There are careers, but they either require supreme intelligence, exceptional academic pedigree, luck, insanely long hours, unstable job prospects, a strong network, tolerance of dangerous work environments, or all of the above. Medicine is the only profession where you can be of slightly above average intelligence and, with some hard work, still make $200,000 a year by working 50-60 hours a week in a safe and stable white-collar profession with absolutely no reliance on an Ivy league degree or a parent who is on the board of directors.

Aside from the white-collar part, which is a completely subjective term, this is possible in literally any profession. Can you name a single career where this isn't possible?

 

[thesauce]

I'd have to agree with that. Yes, in pretty much every career you can find a way to have a salary of 200k but the crap you have to deal with to get there or remain there would have me question how "easy" it really is. For most people, in order to earn a salary that high they would have to work their butt off, it certainly wouldn't be easy.

This is a strange response. Not only are you not agreeing with him (he never said that being a doctor was "easy"), you aren't even addressing the debate. The entire premise of this discussion is that it's a hard road either way, but $200k is doable outside of medicine WITH hard work.

 

[circulus vitios]

Aside from the white-collar part, which is a completely subjective term, this is possible in literally any profession. Can you name a single career where this isn't possible?

Are you serious? How about law. The average established solo lawyers in large, metropolitan areas might make about $120k/year. This is incredibly hard to attain because you're literally starting from nothing. Biglaw cracks $200k/year after a few years as an associate but such a job almost definitely requires a top-10 education and it's only a 5-8 year gig for most associates. Midlaw is a pipe dream unless you have biglaw experience, which I have already covered.

Keep in mind that these are all great outcomes. The average law student never gets a job in the legal field. Those who do have an average starting salary of about $40-50k/year. The majority of law students don't get big law, even at top-10 schools. Any type of legal job is not limited to an ACGME-enforced 80 hour weekly limited, and these jobs sure as hell aren't stable. Read up on the Latham & Watkins law firm. In 2009 they fired about 15% of their associates in one fell swoop.

Let me guess, these tens of thousands of law students are 'dumb' or they aren't 'hard workers' like medical students who are the paragons of intelligence and industriousness?

 

[tantacles]

A challenge should deter some people from pursuing their dreams. I was in your shoes 10 years ago, when I was a pre-med, and I'm still not done, or even within a few years of being done. This is a really, really long pathway, and it's got some very exhausting stretches in it.

Some discouragement is good. If that's all it takes to dissuade someone from this path, then there's no way they would have made it through. I remember being a freshman pre-med in a Spanish class just a few weeks into college, and one junior pre-med was telling me and two other freshman that most of us wouldn't make it. I told myself that I had it in me. He was right though. Most of us didn't make it. He didn't make it, the other freshman guy ended up going to grad school for English or something, and the freshman girl is a nurse.

As someone who generally disagrees with your general tone and message, I surprise myself in this moment: I completely agree with you. Above all, to get through medical school, you need to be resilient, and I think this comment sums up how some initial discouragement can act as a litmus test for this defining trait.

 

[45408]

When a doctor warns you, it's because the average doctor thinks that scoring a 31 on the MCAT and getting a 3.65 GPA in biology at State U means they could have had a physician's salary in any other industry because of their slightly above average intelligence.

"Don't go into medicine, there are faster and easier ways to make $200k/year!"

There's more to a job than the income.

There are careers, but they either require supreme intelligence, exceptional academic pedigree, luck, insanely long hours, unstable job prospects, a strong network, tolerance of dangerous work environments, or all of the above. Medicine is the only profession where you can be of slightly above average intelligence and, with some hard work, still make $200,000 a year by working 50-60 hours a week in a safe and stable white-collar profession with absolutely no reliance on an Ivy league degree or a parent who is on the board of directors.

You've also got to look at the spread on the the net lifetime income prospects of the average physician making $175K/year and graduating with $300K in student loans, starting their first physician job at 32-33, compared to if they had gone into another reasonable job (engineering, nursing, public school teacher [yes, they do make decent money], etc) a decade earlier and with $150,000 less in loans. Plus, many other jobs have more retirement benefits and pension-like options.

I'm not saying that being a physician is a good way to make money. I doubt I would have made more money over my lifetime in another field, but the spread is not as drastic as you're making it sound (as usual).

 

[thesauce]

Are you serious? How about law. The average established solo lawyers in large, metropolitan areas might make about $120k/year. This is incredibly hard to attain because you're literally starting from nothing. Biglaw cracks $200k/year after a few years as an associate but such a job almost definitely requires a top-10 education and it's only a 5-8 year gig for most associates. Midlaw is a pipe dream unless you have biglaw experience, which I have already covered.

Keep in mind that these are all great outcomes. The average law student never gets a job in the legal field. Those who do have an average starting salary of about $40-50k/year. The majority of law students don't get big law, even at top-10 schools. Any type of legal job is not limited to an ACGME-enforced 80 hour weekly limited, and these jobs sure as hell aren't stable. Read up on the Latham & Watkins law firm. In 2009 they fired about 15% of their associates in one fell swoop.

Let me guess, these tens of thousands of law students are 'dumb' or they aren't 'hard workers' like medical students who are the paragons of intelligence and industriousness?

So your premise is that a person who is trying to make $200k goes into a profession where they are very unlikely to make that much and then ends up surprised when they don't? I wasn't going to make the point that these people are idiots, but you've made it anyway.

If you want to make $200k and are willing to put in 80+ hour weeks for 7+ years, there are any number of ways you can do it, but you don't do it by going to work for someone in a job/profession where the odds are against you being able to do it.

If I said that you could make $200k in education, you would quote me the low salaries of public school teachers. If someone wanted to make $200k in education, they would start their own tutoring service and spend time recruiting good people, advertising, expanding, and generally building up the business. They wouldn't go work for the local school district and wonder why they aren't making $200k.

 

[thesauce]

As someone who generally disagrees with your general tone and message, I surprise myself in this moment: I completely agree with you.

LOL, really? Prowler always has the best stuff.

 

[circulus vitios]

So your premise is that a person who is trying to make $200k goes into a profession where they are very unlikely to make that much and then ends up surprised when they don't? I wasn't going to make the point that these people are idiots, but you've made it anyway.

If you want to make $200k and are willing to put in 80+ hour weeks for 7+ years, there are any number of ways you can do it, but you don't do it by going to work for someone in a job/profession where the odds are against you being able to do it.

If I said that you could make $200k in education, you would quote me the low salaries of public school teachers. If someone wanted to make $200k in education, they would start their own tutoring service and spend time recruiting good people, advertising, expanding, and generally building up the business. They wouldn't go work for the local school district and wonder why they aren't making $200k.

This is a non-sensical question. Name one that can't.

I'm lolin' pretty hard at making $200k/year with tutoring services. Yeah, man, sure. Never mind the scale at which you'll have to operate to pull in anywhere near half that on a consistent basis. A reasonable hourly rate for a tutor might be $40/hour. Solo, working 52 weeks a year at 40 hours a week of tutoring and you'll only make $83k/year. You might be able to pull off $50/hour while paying the tutor $30/hour. Most tutors are college kids or grad students, so figure they each can work maybe 15 hours a week on a schedule with time off for their own midterms, finals, and holidays. You're making $300 a week on each tutor, so you'll need about 13 tutors, all of which must bill 15 hours a week to break $200k/year. Now add in vacation, mid terms, finals, reduced hours, unreliable employees, etc. Let's just say you'll have to juggle a roster of about 50 tutors on top of maintaining a quality service and providing your employees (and yourself) with a steady stream of clients. I haven't even talked about the up and down seasons of tutoring. You're sure as hell not going to be making much money during spring and summer break, for example.

Good luck with that. It definitely sounds as easy, straight forward, and stable as grinding out a 3.65 GPA in a bio degree at State U and getting an 80th percentile score on the MCAT, then studying hard enough in med school and doing well enough on step and shelf exams to match into family medicine, the least competitive residency program that still guarantees, on average, about a $200k/year salary.

 

[thesauce]

I'm lolin' pretty hard at making $200k/year with tutoring services. Yeah, man, sure. Never mind the scale at which you'll have to operate to pull in anywhere near half that on a consistent basis. A reasonable hourly rate for a tutor might be $40/hour. Solo, working 52 weeks a year at 40 hours a week of tutoring and you'll only make $83k/year. You might be able to pull off $50/hour while paying the tutor $30/hour. Most tutors are college kids or grad students, so figure they each can work maybe 15 hours a week on a schedule with time off for their own midterms, finals, and holidays. You're making $300 a week on each tutor, so you'll need about 13 tutors, all of which must bill 15 hours a week to break $200k/year. Now add in vacation, mid terms, finals, reduced hours, unreliable employees, etc. Let's just say you'll have to juggle a roster of about 50 tutors on top of maintaining a quality service and providing your employees (and yourself) with a steady stream of clients. I haven't even talked about the up and down seasons of tutoring. You're sure as hell not going to be making much money during spring and summer break, for example.

Good luck with that. It definitely sounds as easy, straight forward, and stable as grinding out a 3.65 GPA in a bio degree at State U and getting an 80th percentile score on the MCAT, then studying hard enough in med school and doing well enough on step and shelf exams to match into family medicine, the least competitive residency program that still guarantees, on average, about a $200k/year salary.

Now you're starting with the "easy" thing too? No one said it was easy. The entire point was that it isn't easy - by either path. And no, becoming a doctor is not easy. No matter how many times you say it, it won't be true.

The irony of you balking at the tutoring example is that it's a true story from a close friend. I worked for him for a while. He billed around $100/hr and kept half. He keeps around 40 tutors.