Why not Mohs?

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peachesorangesapples

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I'm wondering why not more dermatology residents pursue a Mohs/procedural fellowship? They make twice as much as the typical dermatologist and come second after neurosurgery in terms of income potential (>1 million). Is there some hidden caveat (more call?)

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I'm wondering why not more dermatology residents pursue a Mohs/procedural fellowship? They make twice as much as the typical dermatologist and come second after neurosurgery in terms of income potential (>1 million). Is there some hidden caveat (more call?)

1. There are only a finite number of fellowship training programs, so you actually have to find a spot, which is not trivial, especially when you think about who you're competing against.

2. "Typical Mohs Surgeon" beginning career in 2019 does not make twice as much as "Typical dermatolgist". Not even close. This may have been true 20 years ago, if ever. General derms also have far more opportunities for ancillary revenue streams. So, if you're business minded and really want to make as much as possible, general derm can be an easier way to achieve that goal.

3. I know a lot of people think it's easy, but it isn't. I guess you can be one of those guys who doesn't treat SCCs (still can't believe that one) and refers out everything the least bit complicated. But most people who aspire to that just don't even bother with a fellowship. What would be the point?
 
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1. There are only a finite number of fellowship training programs, so you actually have to find a spot, which is not trivial, especially when you think about who you're competing against.

2. "Typical Mohs Surgeon" beginning career in 2019 does not make twice as much as "Typical dermatolgist". Not even close. This may have been true 20 years ago, if ever. General derms also have far more opportunities for ancillary revenue streams. So, if you're business minded and really want to make as much as possible, general derm can be an easier way to achieve that goal.

3. I know a lot of people think it's easy, but it isn't. I guess you can be one of those guys who doesn't treat SCCs (still can't believe that one) and refers out everything the least bit complicated. But most people who aspire to that just don't even bother with a fellowship. What would be the point?

Actually a lot of derm residents apply for spots in Mohs, by far the most popular fellowship. In 2018...there were at least 121 applicants for 58 spots.

I would disagree with parts of the above post though, particularly about compensation. While it’s difficult to find a Mohs job in a major metro area that isn’t part time (most markets are saturated), they typically do have a higher income potential than General dermatologists. They’re also trained in (and often still practice) general dermatology and the same ancillary revenue streams are accessible to them. My friends who came out of Mohs fellowships are making 600-700k (metro areas) to 900k (rural area) their first year out, and this is way beyond my earning potential as a general dermatologist without working like a dog or doing something unethical.
 
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Actually a lot of derm residents apply for spots in Mohs, by far the most popular fellowship. In 2018...there were at least 121 applicants for 58 spots.

I would disagree with parts of the above post though, particularly about compensation. While it’s difficult to find a Mohs job in a major metro area that isn’t part time (most markets are saturated), they typically do have a higher income potential than General dermatologists. They’re also trained in (and often still practice) general dermatology and the same ancillary revenue streams are accessible to them. My friends who came out of Mohs fellowships are making 600-700k (metro areas) to 900k (rural area) their first year out, and this is way beyond my earning potential as a general dermatologist without working like a dog or doing something unethical.

Agree. The trick is finding a mohs job which is much more difficult than a genderm job. It’s NOT easy. If you start your own practice you are looking at making a pittance for several years.

In 2019:
If you join a large group doing mohs plan on sharing revenue with the partners (genderm). So yes, you’ll make 25-30%% more but definitely not twice.

The ones making a million+ are the old-timers who have cornered the mohs market a decade or two ago in their areas and have the new genderms and army of PAs working for them .
 
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My friends who came out of Mohs fellowships are making 600-700k (metro areas) to 900k (rural area) their first year out, and this is way beyond my earning potential as a general dermatologist without working like a dog or doing something unethical.

Lots of this going on in Mohs.
 
Actually a lot of derm residents apply for spots in Mohs, by far the most popular fellowship. In 2018...there were at least 121 applicants for 58 spots.

I would disagree with parts of the above post though, particularly about compensation. While it’s difficult to find a Mohs job in a major metro area that isn’t part time (most markets are saturated), they typically do have a higher income potential than General dermatologists. They’re also trained in (and often still practice) general dermatology and the same ancillary revenue streams are accessible to them. My friends who came out of Mohs fellowships are making 600-700k (metro areas) to 900k (rural area) their first year out, and this is way beyond my earning potential as a general dermatologist without working like a dog or doing something unethical.

1. I wouldn't argue if you said higher, but 2x higher is a pipe dream if we're comparing general derms vs. mohs that work equally hard and are equally ethical.

2. For the ones that do part time gen derm and really tap in to the ancillary revenue streams, if they substituted all of their Mohs for high volume general derm + cosmetics, their income wouldn't change much. And it absolutely wouldn't drop to half.

3. FWIW there are a good number of general derms in metro areas and rural areas pulling in the salaries that you refer to. Assuming they're not doing blatantly fraudulent or unethical, they're all working very hard. The same would be true of a Mohs surgeon in a rural area pulling in 900K. That person is definitely working hard assuming they're not doing anything blatantly fraudulent or unethical.

I agree with slack3r that there is a lot of this going on in Mohs, but there also is plenty in general derm too. If one is willing to cross those lines, then one can make a very high salary no matter what.
 
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Hard working gen derm with procedural-skewed practice can easily do 80-90% of mohs salary, no compromise of ethics needed.
 
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Could you elaborate? I would have thought that Mohs would have less room for fraud in comparison to general dermatology?

Getting a definitive answer on which has the most room for fraud is tough.

The answer is that there is plenty of room for fraud and unethical behavior in both. As there is in virtually every field in medicine.
 
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Maybe I’m an optimist, but I suspect outright fraud is very rare. There’s probably some borderline cases that tread an ethical line, e.g. mohs for nonaggressive BCC of trunk/extremities or flap/graft when amenable to simple closure. I don’t think you could call this fraudulent but some might call it unethical due to over treatment.
 
I saw a patient recently for a second opinion, had over 20 excisional biopsies performed by PCP, none were cancerous on review of path. I don’t know if this is fraud or stupidity or hubris or what. It did confirm my belief that we derms are important.
 
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What do you guys mean when you say unethical or fraud? Can you guys give examples of such that you’ve seen in your careers? Would be interesting to see
 
getting back to the original question, I didn't do mohs because I had no desire to operate all day. being a mohs surgeon is a much different job than being a general dermatologist, and only some derms have a passion for doing that kind and amount of surgery.

regarding the question directly above, I think they're referring to things like recommending mohs on cancers that really don't need it, performing closures the next day just to capture full reimbursement, flaps when a simple closure would have done just as well. i'd describe those things as disappointing behavior, but not fraudulent. If there's true fraud in the field i'm not familiar with the form it takes.
 
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getting back to the original question, I didn't do mohs because I had no desire to operate all day. being a mohs surgeon is a much different job than being a general dermatologist, and only some derms have a passion for doing that kind and amount of surgery.

regarding the question directly above, I think they're referring to things like recommending mohs on cancers that really don't need it, performing closures the next day just to capture full reimbursement, flaps when a simple closure would have done just as well. i'd describe those things as disappointing behavior, but not fraudulent. If there's true fraud in the field i'm not familiar with the form it takes.

Sure, true fraud is rare although present (like any other medical field):


The sad thing is that some mohs surgeons have convinced themselves that over-treating isn’t even unethical at all.
 
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One problem is that "true fraud" is hard to identify as such.

For example if you, like the guy in the article linked above, take an average of 4+ stages per case, there are several possible explanations:

1. You are committing fraud
2. You just suck at Mohs
3. Your cases are, on average, super-complex (a commonly given excuse, but not really ever actually true, but I suppose it's theoretically possible so I'll include it)

If you look at a bunch of stats from a large population of docs, you can deduce based on probability that at least some who take 4+ stages per case (probably most) are in group #1. But proving any individual surgeon is committing fraud is much harder to do.

That's why we all know that fraud must exist even if we have not seen it firsthand. And it is hard to see firsthand. To know for sure if someone is committing fraud, you would have to see someone practice and then see all of their coding and documentation. Once you get past residency (when you generally don't know enough to reliably identify fraud), you don't have that kind of close contact with many other docs. So, in practice, the best you can really do is strongly suspect someone is committing fraud based on their practice patterns. But actually knowing it or being able to prove it is much more difficult.
 
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What do you guys mean when you say unethical or fraud? Can you guys give examples of such that you’ve seen in your careers? Would be interesting to see

I've personally heard of "Mohs surgeons" in rural areas who (1) don't have Moh's fellowship training (2) take a much larger # of layers than a normal Mohs surgeon (3) clearly perform "Mohs" on lesions that don't really meet Mohs Appropriate Use criteria (4) send all their closures to a plastic surgeon or ENT, sometimes making the patient go home with a dressing and return at a later date.

These are things that can
One problem is that "true fraud" is hard to identify as such.

For example if you, like the guy in the article linked above, take an average of 4+ stages per case, there are several possible explanations:

1. You are committing fraud
2. You just suck at Mohs
3. Your cases are, on average, super-complex (a commonly given excuse, but not really ever actually true, but I suppose it's theoretically possible so I'll include it)

If you look at a bunch of stats from a large population of docs, you can deduce based on probability that at least some who take 4+ stages per case (probably most) are in group #1. But proving any individual surgeon is committing fraud is much harder to do.

That's why we all know that fraud must exist even if we have not seen it firsthand. And it is hard to see firsthand. To know for sure if someone is committing fraud, you would have to see someone practice and then see all of their coding and documentation. Once you get past residency (when you generally don't know enough to reliably identify fraud), you don't have that kind of close contact with many other docs. So, in practice, the best you can really do is strongly suspect someone is committing fraud based on their practice patterns. But actually knowing it or being able to prove it is much more difficult.

Example of unethical:

I've seen rural Mohs surgeons who (1) are not Mohs trained, but still practice Mohs (this is fine as long as you feel prepared, though I personally wouldn't) (2) perform Mohs on lesions that probably don't need Mohs, even though they may technically meet Appropriate Use Criteria (or they alter data to make it "fit" Mohs AUC) (3) take more layers than they should (more layers = more $$$) (4) don't do their own closures - send to plastic surgery or ENT for this. The last point relates to lower reimbursement for closures than for the actual Mohs layers, and that, institutionally, a clinic makes more money by separating the Mohs procedure from the closure. This, however, is quite burdensome to the patient - heading home with a dressing, I've even heard of patients being admitted overnight to the hospital for larger Mohs procedure - and that opens a whole other can of worms in terms of risks.
 
Everywhere you look people believe the grass is greener the next field over.... except it isn't. Everyone thinks they're the white hat, free from bias and under dutiful obligation to virtue signal and cast stones.... except they're not. Everyone "knows" something -- except they don't. They may have "heard" something. They likely "believe" something. "Knowing", however, is something very different... Rinse and repeat, second verse, same as the first.

No one is getting reimbursed on a regular basis for **** that does not meet AUC criteria; it's hard enough to get reimbursed for those things that do. Further, the financial impact to the clinic for the separation of extirpation and reconstruction is wildly exaggerated per unit time; yes, for any given volume of disease, the costs to the patient are higher -- but these higher costs to the patient do not directly transfer (much less in a linear or 1:1 fashion) to clinic financial benefit as the rescheduling and subsequent treatment are not costless endeavors.
 
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I've personally heard of "Mohs surgeons" in rural areas who (1) don't have Moh's fellowship training (2) take a much larger # of layers than a normal Mohs surgeon (3) clearly perform "Mohs" on lesions that don't really meet Mohs Appropriate Use criteria (4) send all their closures to a plastic surgeon or ENT, sometimes making the patient go home with a dressing and return at a later date.

These are things that can


Example of unethical:

I've seen rural Mohs surgeons who (1) are not Mohs trained, but still practice Mohs (this is fine as long as you feel prepared, though I personally wouldn't) (2) perform Mohs on lesions that probably don't need Mohs, even though they may technically meet Appropriate Use Criteria (or they alter data to make it "fit" Mohs AUC) (3) take more layers than they should (more layers = more $$$) (4) don't do their own closures - send to plastic surgery or ENT for this. The last point relates to lower reimbursement for closures than for the actual Mohs layers, and that, institutionally, a clinic makes more money by separating the Mohs procedure from the closure. This, however, is quite burdensome to the patient - heading home with a dressing, I've even heard of patients being admitted overnight to the hospital for larger Mohs procedure - and that opens a whole other can of worms in terms of risks.
Yes, I am aware of people who abuse the system exactly as you state and no, I'm not a fan of any of them, either. It sucks -- and it makes life that much more difficult for those who try to be conscientious about these things and be good stewards of the healthcare dollar (which is really the life of the person in the chair, when you do something that you shouldn't you are stealing from the person, whether you can be caught, tried, and prosecuted or not). Throw in in-office XRT and now you're really getting into the weeds....
 
Yes, I am aware of people who abuse the system exactly as you state and no, I'm not a fan of any of them, either. It sucks -- and it makes life that much more difficult for those who try to be conscientious about these things and be good stewards of the healthcare dollar (which is really the life of the person in the chair, when you do something that you shouldn't you are stealing from the person, whether you can be caught, tried, and prosecuted or not). Throw in in-office XRT and now you're really getting into the weeds....

Yes in office XRT is a joke and ripe for major abuse.

That being said, the AUC criteria are also a joke to put things loosely. I understand there were voices advocating for those criteria - but I don’t know why the biggest over-users of mohs won out over those who use it appropriately.
 
Yes in office XRT is a joke and ripe for major abuse.

That being said, the AUC criteria are also a joke to put things loosely. I understand there were voices advocating for those criteria - but I don’t know why the biggest over-users of mohs won out over those who use it appropriately.

I've been on the record lamenting the laxity of the AUC metric and stating that it actually undercut our validity argument, but I was a member of the minority voice (same thing with the MMS board certification, but that's another topic for another day). That said, I would argue all week long and twice on Sunday that more actual, discernible harm is done by those who do surgery with reconstruction over uncertain margins and local destructions inappropriately (even if, in their mind, they have excellent cure rates with it due to their personal experience). Point is, true value in healthcare is a very nebulous target, often relying on biases and presumptions that are neither critically assessed or reproducible, therein rendering the opinions only that -- opinions. People who perform MMS are accused of overutilization by those who do not; those who do not are accused of blindness to their own ignorance.... and I sometimes wonder how much overlap there exists in the objective truth to either camp's positions.
 
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There is a misconception on Mohs being a very lucrative procedure. If you do it properly, Mohs surgery cases generate not much more than a wide excision. Mohs surgeon gets a bad rep for "over-utilization". Truth is that it really doesn't cost the system that much more unless you compare to ED&C all Basal Cells. It maybe true 15 years ago when Multiple Surgical Reduction didn't apply to Mohs' codes. But now it is no longer the case.

I dare to say the majority of Mohs cases are reimbursed at Medicare rate, being through Medicare directly or through one of its "managed care" counterpart. At that fee schedule, you get paid roughly $500 for 1st stage and another $300 for each additional stage. The national average of Mohs Stages is roughly at 1.6-1.7. So you are lucky to get $650-700 for the Mohs on the average. If you include an intermediate closure the same day, they pay you $150-200 after the Multiple Surgical Reduction. You are looking at about 800-900 per cancer. Even if you are looking at the private insurance cases, you have to contend with prior authorizations, deductibles, and bill collection. When all said and done, each Mohs cases is worth < $1000.

On the other hand, if you do "Slow Mo", You get paid $300-400 for excision (given the bigger margin) and another $300-400 for closure 3 days later after clearance of the margin. You get roughly 500-700 per cancer.

On the surface, you get paid $200-$300 doing Mohs s. Slo-Mo. Let's call it $250 to simplify. Now that $250 also accounts for additional Mohs equipment (can get pretty expensive), specialized staff (college education required per CLIA), lots of reagents, slides, and consumables, and Human resources to manage the staff. Suddenly, the $250 barely covers those costs.

You can try to increase the stage unethically or fraudulently, but your 17311:17312 ratio is there for the world to see at the annual release of Medicare data. You do 4 stages per patient on 1000 patients a year, everyone knows.

So with that said, the whole "Mohs surgeons are unethical" or most "Mohs procedures are unnecessary" accusation is overdone. There is really not that much profit in comparison unless you compare to EDC only. Mohs surgeons can make more money than general derm, but they need to do a lot of cases to do that and have the referral network and biopsy-proven cancer patients to make it possible. You don't just finish your fellowship and have people all put money in your pocket.

AUC or not, if my mother has a small basal cell on her back, she is getting Mohs. You can EDC your mother if you'd like, but my mother will get the treatment with the best cure rate. If the patient has no say in what treatment they get, we are no different than serving on the "death panel" in our office and decide who will get the medical treatment. I would argue the patient should be given the information to make the informed decision together with the physician. Then again, this is a whole different controversy.

To answer the title of original thread: "Why not Mohs?" Because there are easier ways to make money...
 
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It’s funny that dermatology textbooks will actually discuss how expensive Mohs is. You may even see it in plastic surgery literature. Can you think of any other procedures in which cost is discussed like that?

I actually once had a managed care clinic refer a case to me for Mohs and then later call back to cancel the referral. They said it was because Mohs was “too expensive”. I followed up with them and the patient got referred to an ENT who took them to a hospital to do the procedure.

I would have been paid $1000 probably, but with ENT/anesthesia/hospital I’m sure it was $10,000.
 
There is a misconception on Mohs being a very lucrative procedure. If you do it properly, Mohs surgery cases generate not much more than a wide excision. Mohs surgeon gets a bad rep for "over-utilization". Truth is that it really doesn't cost the system that much more unless you compare to ED&C all Basal Cells. It maybe true 15 years ago when Multiple Surgical Reduction didn't apply to Mohs' codes. But now it is no longer the case.

I dare to say the majority of Mohs cases are reimbursed at Medicare rate, being through Medicare directly or through one of its "managed care" counterpart. At that fee schedule, you get paid roughly $500 for 1st stage and another $300 for each additional stage. The national average of Mohs Stages is roughly at 1.6-1.7. So you are lucky to get $650-700 for the Mohs on the average. If you include an intermediate closure the same day, they pay you $150-200 after the Multiple Surgical Reduction. You are looking at about 800-900 per cancer. Even if you are looking at the private insurance cases, you have to contend with prior authorizations, deductibles, and bill collection. When all said and done, each Mohs cases is worth < $1000.

On the other hand, if you do "Slow Mo", You get paid $300-400 for excision (given the bigger margin) and another $300-400 for closure 3 days later after clearance of the margin. You get roughly 500-700 per cancer.

On the surface, you get paid $200-$300 doing Mohs s. Slo-Mo. Let's call it $250 to simplify. Now that $250 also accounts for additional Mohs equipment (can get pretty expensive), specialized staff (college education required per CLIA), lots of reagents, slides, and consumables, and Human resources to manage the staff. Suddenly, the $250 barely covers those costs.

You can try to increase the stage unethically or fraudulently, but your 17311:17312 ratio is there for the world to see at the annual release of Medicare data. You do 4 stages per patient on 1000 patients a year, everyone knows.

So with that said, the whole "Mohs surgeons are unethical" or most "Mohs procedures are unnecessary" accusation is overdone. There is really not that much profit in comparison unless you compare to EDC only. Mohs surgeons can make more money than general derm, but they need to do a lot of cases to do that and have the referral network and biopsy-proven cancer patients to make it possible. You don't just finish your fellowship and have people all put money in your pocket.

AUC or not, if my mother has a small basal cell on her back, she is getting Mohs. You can EDC your mother if you'd like, but my mother will get the treatment with the best cure rate. If the patient has no say in what treatment they get, we are no different than serving on the "death panel" in our office and decide who will get the medical treatment. I would argue the patient should be given the information to make the informed decision together with the physician. Then again, this is a whole different controversy.

To answer the title of original thread: "Why not Mohs?" Because there are easier ways to make money...
No ****. I've grown weary of having rocks thrown in my general direction, much less be it from people who should bleeping know better.

Just today I had two relatively small SCCs along the temporal hairline referred to me -- with fresh ED&C scars on their malar cheek and left alar crease, respectively. In neither case did I have to ask why they were referred, they started the conversation with "I won't have another spot on my face scraped and burned."* (cleaned up the language a little)

As for profitability -- there is no way in hell that MMS is more profitable than a local destruction; profit would have to account for not only the revenue generated, but also the costs and time incurred in the provision of the service. It would take me, from walk in the room to bandaged and walking out, less than 3 minutes to do an ED&C -- and that's with me numbing them, setting up and breaking down the tray, and bandaging. 3 minutes. You will not find a more revenue dense procedure in the office setting than local destructions.
 
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When you guys get a small nodular (1cm) BCC referred to you for Mohs on the forearm/leg/back of a healthy patient, how do you handle it?
 
Why no mention of excision as a viable alternative? Why are we comparing mohs to edc only in this discussion? I argue that many lesions, even those in mohs AUC areas can be reasonably treated with excision with very similar cute rates. I may be a bit behind on my reading, but I think the only study showing superiority of mohs to excision was on infiltrative BCC of central face. Please educate me if I’m wrong. And before anybody jumps down my throat, I refer a ton to mohs. But if my 85 year old mom has a 3 mm nod BCC at preauricular site I would rec excision (or even EDC) over mohs.
 
When you guys get a small nodular (1cm) BCC referred to you for Mohs on the forearm/leg/back of a healthy patient, how do you handle it?
Doesn't really happen very often -- unless you count the anterior shin with horrible field effect or the forearm in a transplant patient covered with verrucous lesions. I would venture to guess that in 15 years and over 20,000 cases you could count on one hand (maybe both) the number of 1cm or less BCC's on the trunk or extremities that have been referred by a dermatologist for MMS. If it did, it's because the patient is somewhat difficult, in which case I inform them that we have rules that we have to go by, then I take it out, process it via horizontal frozen sections, and call it excision with frozen sections. Transplant patients, field fire effect lesions get called MMS.
 
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Why no mention of excision as a viable alternative? Why are we comparing mohs to edc only in this discussion? I argue that many lesions, even those in mohs AUC areas can be reasonably treated with excision with very similar cute rates. I may be a bit behind on my reading, but I think the only study showing superiority of mohs to excision was on infiltrative BCC of central face. Please educate me if I’m wrong. And before anybody jumps down my throat, I refer a ton to mohs. But if my 85 year old mom has a 3 mm nod BCC at preauricular site I would rec excision (or even EDC) over mohs.
Not going to jump down your throat, but excision is not comparable, neither in cure rate nor cost nor the size of the hole left behind (with any confidence of clear margins). The cost difference is minimal these days thanks to the loss of the multiple procedure reduction exemption, the defect is smaller, and for anything small enough to be reasonably excised I can have better information / more reliable read / smaller defect and be ready to sew in 20-25 minutes. As such, the only significant reason to really choose excision in an otherwise healthy patient over MMS with setup for closure is provider convenience.

on edit -- meh, comes across a little more harshly than intended. It's not that I think excision is wrong or unreasonable, even, I just don't think they're comparable in reliability, and I believe that (especially true for smaller lesions) the relative difference in the size of the defect can be substantial regarding possible reconstruction options.
 
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Solodyn, you offer mohs to all of your patients for truncal BCC? If so, I suspect that would put you in the very small minority of fellowship trained mohs surgeons who make a similar recommendation.
 
Not going to jump down your throat, but excision is not comparable, neither in cure rate nor cost nor the size of the hole left behind (with any confidence of clear margins). The cost difference is minimal these days thanks to the loss of the multiple procedure reduction exemption, the defect is smaller, and for anything small enough to be reasonably excised I can have better information / more reliable read / smaller defect and be ready to sew in 20-25 minutes. As such, the only significant reason to really choose excision in an otherwise healthy patient over MMS with setup for closure is provider convenience.

Yes it is comparable in cure rate, less than 5% and probably closer to 3% in skilled hands.

The cost would also be similar, but lower for excision.

3mm margin on excision, good for most simple NMSC, will not yield appreciably different scar length, again in hands of skilled surgeon.
 
Yes it is comparable in cure rate, less than 5% and probably closer to 3% in skilled hands.

The cost would also be similar, but lower for excision.

3mm margin on excision, good for most simple NMSC, will not yield appreciably different scar length, again in hands of skilled surgeon.
We'll have to disagree on that as the number of MMS cases that are referred to me with previously negative margins is much higher than one would predict. Maybe the surgeons were skilled and the pathologists just suck -- that would explain half of it, I suppose.


....and if 3mm margins reliably resulted in a 95% cure rate, MMS would not even be a thing.
 
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We'll have to disagree on that as the number of MMS cases that are referred to me with previously negative margins is much higher than one would predict. Maybe the surgeons were skilled and the pathologists just suck -- that would explain half of it, I suppose.


....and if 3mm margins reliably resulted in a 95% cure rate, MMS would not even be a thing.

I think it’s higher than 95% actually

And mohs is a (great) thing for certain tumors, you know which I mean.
 
If you do referral only Mohs, you're really not going to get a lot of these tiny truncal BCCs.

But when I do them, I perform an excision with a narrow margin, I process the tissue in my lab with en face sections and I read the pathology before I close it. All those parts get billed separately and it's less than what you get for Mohs. Efficacy is equivalent of course. I only do this because it's quite a rare thing. If I started getting lots of these, I might re-think how I handle them.
 
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I’m just going to say this: if someone did a local destruction or excision on an invasive SCC or any BCC on the mid face, ears, or fingers on someone without offering MMS as an option - explaining with sincerity the widely accepted benefits - I believe that surgeon would be standing on very shaky ground if that patient read about it after the fact and got pissed. I wouldn’t blame them. It’s kinda the law, this informed consent thing. Obnoxious when one knows what’s best, I’m sure, but hey - the times in which we live, right?
 
I’m just going to say this: if someone did a local destruction or excision on an invasive SCC or any BCC on the mid face, ears, or fingers on someone without offering MMS as an option - explaining with sincerity the widely accepted benefits - I believe that surgeon would be standing on very shaky ground if that patient read about it after the fact and got pissed. I wouldn’t blame them. It’s kinda the law, this informed consent thing. Obnoxious when one knows what’s best, I’m sure, but hey - the times in which we live, right?

Agree 100%
 
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I’m just going to say this: if someone did a local destruction or excision on an invasive SCC or any BCC on the mid face, ears, or fingers on someone without offering MMS as an option - explaining with sincerity the widely accepted benefits - I believe that surgeon would be standing on very shaky ground if that patient read about it after the fact and got pissed. I wouldn’t blame them. It’s kinda the law, this informed consent thing. Obnoxious when one knows what’s best, I’m sure, but hey - the times in which we live, right?

Similarly if somebody did a mohs on a subcentimeter nod BCC of trunk without offering destruction or excision as an alternative, I believe that surgeon would be in the minority and I wouldn’t blame the patient for being angry at the added cost and inconvenience.
 
I’m just going to say this: if someone did a local destruction or excision on an invasive SCC or any BCC on the mid face, ears, or fingers on someone without offering MMS as an option - explaining with sincerity the widely accepted benefits - I believe that surgeon would be standing on very shaky ground if that patient read about it after the fact and got pissed. I wouldn’t blame them. It’s kinda the law, this informed consent thing. Obnoxious when one knows what’s best, I’m sure, but hey - the times in which we live, right?

I may’ve misread this...does this mean you’d offer mohs for well differentiated 5 mm SCC of forearm? I guess it meets AUC but I think would be pretty uncommon to do mohs on this. I know it would be for the mohs surgeons in my practice.
 
I think it’s higher than 95% actually

And mohs is a (great) thing for certain tumors, you know which I mean.
I think our difference of opinion on this might stem from the number of times that I get a path report back saying “nodular basal cell carcinoma” or just “basal cell carcinoma” and this is what I see when I take it out:

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I can see how that would skew your view...are you getting referrals from PCPs? Seems weird to be getting this sort of thing with any frequency from BCD.
 
Similarly if somebody did a mohs on a subcentimeter nod BCC of trunk without offering destruction or excision as an alternative, I believe that surgeon would be in the minority and I wouldn’t blame the patient for being angry at the added cost and inconvenience.
Oh, agreed. And I’d think that person was kind of the problem!
 
Recent Blue journal article discussing your exact point...I think it was roughly 9% of biopsies failed to capture more invasive tumor.
 
I may’ve misread this...does this mean you’d offer mohs for well differentiated 5 mm SCC of forearm? I guess it meets AUC but I think would be pretty uncommon to do mohs on this. I know it would be for the mohs surgeons in my practice.
No, I generally would never even see that person as that’s not what gets referred to me. If it was, I’d excise it like Reno outlined above - or ED&C it most likely. Transplant patient or CLL patient? Different story.
 
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Like I said, I know my limits and send anything equivocal to mohs...thankfully have not encountered any recurrence that I can recall. But I’m excising low risk stuff in low risk areas, so I guess that helps.
 
The sad thing is that some mohs surgeons have convinced themselves that over-treating isn’t even unethical at all.

Perhaps, but I think it's even sadder that some dermatologists have convinced themselves that undertreating isn't even unethical at all.
 
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Not sure what emboldens folks to do kooky stuff and get themselves in trouble and put pt at risk. If it’s the money, what a rotten shame. Get a paper route!
 
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