why post bac and not caribbean?

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HailToTheThielf

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Just curious, but what are the resons for all of you guys that are attending or planning to attend post bac programs rather than just go to the caribbean? Is there something I am missing. I just ran into an old friend about a month ago. We went to the same college, he was a BIG party guy, never gave a crap about his grades, well at least the first two years of college. Then I go and take post bac classes, get a research job, go volunteer after college, while this guy decides to skip all the bullcrap and just go to the caribbean straight from college. VH1=where are they now??? Well he is in his senior year in louisiana (you just go to the caribbean for 20 months then do your clinical rotations or last two years OF med school in the US) and me.....well im typing on SDN trying to take MORE post baccs, trying to do more volunteer work, studying for the MCATs AGAIN etc.....
Whats the point in trying to kill ourselves doing these post baccs, volunteer, research, kissing butt, when everyone can go to the caribbean? Has anyone looked at some of their stats?? There are three caribbean schools that are well established, old, have thousands of practicing docs in the US and they say that their pass rate for step 1 is around 95%!!!!!!!! Thats what I dont get, am I missing something? Why isnt everone just going to med school instead of wasting our time, getting older, trying to improve our application which has seemed like a very very long road. You know, Im thinking of doing the harvard extension, but lifestyle in Boston is EXPENSIVE, its going to cost alot of money and energy. Matter of fact all these post baccs are very expensive programs. So again, why not save the draining time and energy and expenses and go to the caribbean? Thanks for your replies everyone!
 
Biggest knock on Carribbean (and I'm not trying to start a war), is that its harder to get a residency if you are a FMG. I personally don't fancy living on a resort or 3rd world island during medical school just to have MD after my name. Spending all that money to begin with I want to be sure I'm going to get a good residency to pay back all that debt.
 
ok, I talked to my friend about this. "Cant get a good residency" He said that thats not true. He said that yes its harder to get into a competative residency such as dermo, radiology, or ortho, BUT its the same if you get into a US med school. He said that even if you attend a US med school chances are still slim to get a competative residency! So whats the difference? He said that most go into family practice, internal medicine or general surgery. So basically you can get into any spot except for the very competative residencies! You go internal med, then you can go into nuerology, cardiology, gastro etc.... So here we are TRYING to get into a US med school, we didnt get in the first time, so chances are that when it all goes down, even if we do get into a US school, more than likely, we will not get a competative residency. You'll will end up getting the same residency that you'd get if you went to the caribbean. I talked to my friend about this for a while. He said that most people hear the rumor about caribbean and not getting a residency and they run for the hills and never look back. He said thats where the misunderstanding is. Its not true that you wont match for residency, he said that EVERYONE matches, the only difference he said was for VERY competative residencies such as derm and rads were hard to place into. But other than those three, its just the same as trying to place if you came from a US med school. Im not trying to promote caribbean med schools on here. Im just curious as why everyone tries the what seems like the longer and harder route. You know, my friend says that ALL of his friends from the caribbean placed into the residency they wanted NO PROBLEM! The ONLY ones that had problems placing again where the ones who wanted the very competative residencies. This guy was in a fraternity, partied every night, went to the caribbean and got a 230 on his step one. Placed into a internal medicine residency, and is planning to go into cardio. Meanwhile, Im here sitting on my thumb!
 
Well then, there you have it! I'm sure there are many opinions out there but the fact remains that Carribbean is almost everyones last choice, and since they've been around for awhile, I'm sure there are a myriad of reasons everyone is not jumping on the boat (no pun intended)!

I'm sure this has been addressed ad-nauseum in both the DO and Carribbean forums so I suggest searching both (be advised not to start another DO vs Carribbean thread).

Usually the DO forum is better because all the DOs actually post the stats of how FMG's vs DO's do in matching, boards, etc. to back up the notion that DO>FMG and so on..
 
I am in the same boat after performing poorly as an undergrad (3.2) and a poor MCAT of 25. This year I am doing 5 upper level graduate science classes (physiology masters program), will be working in a hospital, getting into research, and studying for the April 2006 MCAT.

I am sure that if I can show that I have turned myself around...with a 4.0 in this program with a 30+ on the MCAT, I will have a good shot at a state school. I am also going to be applying to some DO schools as the osteopathic practices are something I agree with as well. Then as a last resort I will also be applying to some carribean schools.

With a state MD program, I will be paying approx $125K, with a DO (out of state..want to get out of the midwest if I go DO) I will be paying approx $200K, and with a carribean education I will be paying approx $250K. (don't quote me on these numbers...just a general idea).

I do not mind taking 2 extra years (as I will be applying next year and won't be accepted/rejected until 2007) to try to get my debt $75-100K lower than what it would be. Going to an american MD program will also look good for residencies. I will also be doing research as an MS student which I can apply towards residency if I decide to go DO...which will give me a leg up on some residencies I hope.

If all this extra effort fails, atleast I will know that I didn't go to carribean school without trying...at least I gave it another shot and took the next best option. It all depends on if I get a 4.0 this year and get a 30+ on the MCAT while working...will be a challenge...but so will medical school.

Let me know what you all think....
 
thats awesome guys. Im not trying to start any war thread. I was just curious. I feel like if there is something im missing. I guess, my father is a general/vascular surgeon. He is from Mexico, born and raised, went to medical school there, then got a residency here in phili. Makes around ~$600,000 a yr and works his ASS off. My parents live in laredo texas on the border with mexico. MOST of the doctors in laredo are mexican! LOTS came from Mexico. And these guys aren't geniuses. They just worked hard. But you know they all tell me that it really doesn't matter what med school you go to. More important is the residency and your modivation. Seems like it really doesn't matter what med school you go to. Just study hard and get a good score on the step 1. Work you butt off in residency and never give up. They all tell me the same thing=try to get into a US med school....and if you try and try and still dont get in, then go to a foreign med school. The only drawback they say is that you'll have to work a little harder. But that extra effort will help you in the long run. I dont know, it seems like there are just more and more graduates coming out of these caribbean med schools so I feel like there is something im missing! Why isnt everyone going then????? You know what I mean? I just wanted to get others opinion. Thanks guys!
 
Everyone has different circumstances- many applicants have families and can't just uproot them to the caribean for a few years- thus they do post-bacs to improve their chances at a state or local school. Also, many people doing post-bacs haven't finished the pre-reqs yet so they can't just go to the caribean for medical school- they have to finish the pre-reqs before they can apply anywhere. You seem really gung ho on the caribbean thing- if it works for your situation then go for it, but it's kind of senseless to keep starting these "so why would anyone do a post-bac when they can just go to the caribbean???!!!" threads, as if we are all crazy to be doing a post-bac program. I personally would never go the Caribbean- I'd rather spend extra time doing a post-bac to get into a US school (hopefully, my state school where my family is and the tuition is cheap)- but that is a personal decision and I respect anyone that chooses to get their MD at a Caribbean school, we all have our own lives and need to make choices on what is best for our individual circumstances. Just use your head and I'm sure you can come up with pros and cons for both post-bac programs and Caribbean med school on your own.
 
First of all, I'd like to say that I think the Caribbean is a completely reasonable route for those with less than perfect records.

The Step I passing rate at the Caribbean medical schools is misleading. You might read that the first time pass rate is 95%, but that's a misleading number. Take St. George's for example. The reported 1st time pass rate is probably around 90-95% (it varies by year). However, there is considerable attrition. My understanding is that SGU doesn't have many students who drop out due to poor grades. However, a significant amount of the students decelerate. The same students you start your courses with may not all make it to the boards at the same time. In addition, many of the Caribbean schools require that their students pass shelf exams before sponsoring them for Step I.

It's not super hard to get a residency coming from the more established non-LCME Caribbean schools (e.g., SGU, Ross, AUC, and Saba). Thousands of residency positions are filled by FMGs. However, you are at a significant disadvantage in getting the residency of your choice. Highly competitive specialties (integrated plastics, ortho surgery, urology, ENT, ophthalmology, dx radiology, rad onc, dermatology, neurosurgery, etc.) are very difficult or nearly impossible to obtain coming from a Caribbean school. Top programs in less competitive specialties (e.g., some Internal Medicine programs) are also very difficult or nearly impossible to obtain coming from the Caribbean.

I'm going to have to disagree with your friend. To state the obvious, highly competitive residencies are highly competitive residencies. It might be highly competitive to get a certain residency (e.g., dermatology) coming from a US MD school. But coming from a Caribbean med school? Pretty much slim to nil right after graduating. Look, SDN's rad onc moderator, an SGU grad, landed a residency in rad onc at Hopkins. That was quite a few years ago and I believe FMGs match into rad onc much less frequently now. If you ask her point blank whether US MD students and FMGs are on equal footing for that residency, I'll guarantee you that she'll say that FMGs are at a major disadvantage -- and she's been on both side of rad onc residency admissions.

Some of the Caribbean med schools' match lists are misleading (this includes SGU). Last I checked, they didn't even separate preliminary vs. categorical surgery matches. In addition, SGU doesn't specify PGY-1 and PGY-2 years like they should (this could be a plus or a minus depending on how you look at it and what specialty is mentioned).

Take a look at the residency match list for a place considered "less competitive" or "a backup" such as NYMC, Drexel, Rosalind Franklin, etc. I'm willing to bet you'll see that the overall match is generally much better. And check out the residency placement of a supposed "middle tier" school and you'll see a huge difference.

Neurology is really its own residency, not an IM fellowship.

Yes, you can get a good university-based IM program coming from the Carib. SGU and Ross get a bunch of their graduates into those residency programs every year. And if you want to go for a fellowship after that (GI, Cards, Pulmonary, Nephrology, etc.), your medical school isn't going to really matter much. If you know that's what you want to do, then yeah, Caribbean is probably fine and you'd be saving time. This is what my best friend thinks he's going to do -- at the moment anyway.

Other considerations:

Stigma of being a US IMG: It's up to you if this an issue or not, but this does play a role in many residency programs (but much less in practice)

Poor living conditions (except maybe AUC, which I don't think is as strong as SGU or Ross)

Hurricanes

Great variability in education from one Caribbean school to another: It's best to stick with SGU, Ross, AUC, and Saba. Make sure you know the licensure issues of the states you would consider practicing in. The ones to be especially careful about are New York, California, and Texas.

Huge class sizes

Very expensive

Fewer research opportunities- especially in the basic science years

Some Carib schools accept students who should NEVER have been accepted in the first place- There are students with sub-20 MCATs, low GPAs and crappy study habits who think they can suddenly turn their lives around. Some Carib schools accept these applicants, the students aren't prepared and fail out, and the Carib schools take the money to the bank. I think it's great that some Carib schools are willing to give people the opportunity to realize their dreams, but some of the ones they accept have basically no chance of succeeding. In this case, I'd say these low MCAT, low GPA, poor study habits - students *should do a postbac first* to prepare for med school before even thinking of attending med school anywhere.

Fewer combined degree programs- there are a few and most of them are worthless. The MPH in SGU's MD/MPH program is a HORRIBLE option. It's okay if you're doing their one-year MPH because of the guaranteed admission to SGU and you're at your last resort. But if you actually want an MPH? You're in the wrong place, buddy! It carries no accreditation (state or CEPH or ASPH) in the US and costs as much or more than good one-year MPH programs for professionals in the US. A lot of the most desired MPH programs in the country are comparably priced (sometimes even cheaper) and can be finished in one year if you're a professional (MD, DO, DDS, DMD, and so on).

Less freedom for elective rotations- some hospitals simply do not allow FMGs to rotate. That can pretty much screw you over if you want to audition in certain hospitals.

My best friend screwed up in undergrad, he is currently an MS-3 at SGU, and he's doing GREAT. He went to a top tier university, but had some trouble in the beginning with his grades. At the time he filed his AMCAS, he had ~3.1 GPA, a sub 3.0 bcpm, and a 30 MCAT (all 10s). He got no interviews at any MD school. He didn't apply to DO schools. He didn't have anything against DO schools, but he simply didn't know about them at the time. Around January or so, he realized he wasn't going to be accepted at a US med school. So he applied to some schools in the Caribbean and some SMPs. During his senior year, he pulled a 4.0 average and he *knew* he was ready. He got into the SMPs at BU and G-town, but he wanted to get on with his life. He worked his ass of his first two years and has a 3.9+ GPA (4.0 in science courses, one B came in some legal/healthcare class of some sort). He scored in the 240s on his USMLE Step I this Summer and he's beginning clinical rotations next week at an Ivy League - affiliate medical hospital (part of the Cornell-Columbia New York Presbyterian Hospital System). He's seriously considering doing Internal Medicine w/ a possible fellowship (after doing a summer shadowing experience program that exposed him to multiple medical specialties) and for getting into that, he'll be able to get into a solid program. But he hasn't ruled out something like rads or ortho, and for that, matching is not a sure thing coming from the Caribbean; he'll have his work cut out for him if he pursues that path.

Closing thought:

The more established Caribbean schools are a completely reasonable option. I do think that DO schools offer some significant advantages over Caribbean schools in some respects, but there *are* reasons other than the initials why people would go to Caribbean schools instead of DO schools even if they may have been accepted to or were competitive for some osteopathic schools (e.g., more international practice rights and not wanting to do OMM). But you should be aware of what you're getting into before you make the decision to matriculate at a Caribbean med school. Caribbean MD schools =/= US MD schools.

On a completely unrelated note, I listened to Radiohead's the Bends today and it's still one of the best damn albums I've ever listened to. :horns: 😛
 
ahhh, my friend phil. Great advice thanks you! Also "the bends"=most beautiful album ever made!! I swear that album changed my life. Actually decided I wanted to be a doctor listening to "Fake plastic trees" one day when I was lost in a big city and wasn't myself (long story not going into). Anyways thanks phil, you made great points. And yes "the bends" is, I think the best damn, eye opening album I have ever listened to as well. Good Luck Phil and everyone else. Peace!
 
mizzoudude said:
I am in the same boat after performing poorly as an undergrad (3.2) and a poor MCAT of 25. This year I am doing 5 upper level graduate science classes (physiology masters program), will be working in a hospital, getting into research, and studying for the April 2006 MCAT.

I am sure that if I can show that I have turned myself around...with a 4.0 in this program with a 30+ on the MCAT, I will have a good shot at a state school. I am also going to be applying to some DO schools as the osteopathic practices are something I agree with as well. Then as a last resort I will also be applying to some carribean schools.

With a state MD program, I will be paying approx $125K, with a DO (out of state..want to get out of the midwest if I go DO) I will be paying approx $200K, and with a carribean education I will be paying approx $250K. (don't quote me on these numbers...just a general idea).

I do not mind taking 2 extra years (as I will be applying next year and won't be accepted/rejected until 2007) to try to get my debt $75-100K lower than what it would be. Going to an american MD program will also look good for residencies. I will also be doing research as an MS student which I can apply towards residency if I decide to go DO...which will give me a leg up on some residencies I hope.

If all this extra effort fails, atleast I will know that I didn't go to carribean school without trying...at least I gave it another shot and took the next best option. It all depends on if I get a 4.0 this year and get a 30+ on the MCAT while working...will be a challenge...but so will medical school.

Let me know what you all think....

U forgot to factor in the 2 or 3 years of lost income u ll have by spending that time reapplying, post bacs....etc
 
HailToTheThielf said:
Just curious, but what are the resons for all of you guys that are attending or planning to attend post bac programs rather than just go to the caribbean? Is there something I am missing. I just ran into an old friend about a month ago. We went to the same college, he was a BIG party guy, never gave a crap about his grades, well at least the first two years of college. Then I go and take post bac classes, get a research job, go volunteer after college, while this guy decides to skip all the bullcrap and just go to the caribbean straight from college. VH1=where are they now??? Well he is in his senior year in louisiana (you just go to the caribbean for 20 months then do your clinical rotations or last two years OF med school in the US) and me.....well im typing on SDN trying to take MORE post baccs, trying to do more volunteer work, studying for the MCATs AGAIN etc.....
Whats the point in trying to kill ourselves doing these post baccs, volunteer, research, kissing butt, when everyone can go to the caribbean? Has anyone looked at some of their stats?? There are three caribbean schools that are well established, old, have thousands of practicing docs in the US and they say that their pass rate for step 1 is around 95%!!!!!!!! Thats what I dont get, am I missing something? Why isnt everone just going to med school instead of wasting our time, getting older, trying to improve our application which has seemed like a very very long road. You know, Im thinking of doing the harvard extension, but lifestyle in Boston is EXPENSIVE, its going to cost alot of money and energy. Matter of fact all these post baccs are very expensive programs. So again, why not save the draining time and energy and expenses and go to the caribbean? Thanks for your replies everyone!

I almost went the caribbean route, however after careful thought, i felt like if I did, I'd be cheating myself. Its not becaus I think the quality of the education in the caribben is inferior, rather I felt like I would be taking a short cut instead of working harder. I didn't work as hard as some of these pre-meds in college and now im paying the price. those premeds who worked their a** off deserve to be where they are. So instead of just taking the short cut of going to the carib, i decided that i prefer to just work hard now in my masters and get in the right way. Again, im not putting down carib schools or their quality of education or those who take that route. i think those schools are just as good as these b/c ultimately its the usmle and your residency that counts and the people who pass and make it are just as great as the US docs. Ultimately its the person not the school that makes the education what it is. anyway, thats what im doing, working hard getting my masters. and i know once i make it here in the US i will feel soo much more prouder and fulfilled. but thats just me..
 
nena said:
I almost went the caribbean route, however after careful thought, i felt like if I did, I'd be cheating myself. Its not becaus I think the quality of the education in the caribben is inferior, rather I felt like I would be taking a short cut instead of working harder. I didn't work as hard as some of these pre-meds in college and now im paying the price. those premeds who worked their a** off deserve to be where they are. So instead of just taking the short cut of going to the carib, i decided that i prefer to just work hard now in my masters and get in the right way...

anyway, thats what im doing, working hard getting my masters. and i know once i make it here in the US i will feel soo much more prouder and fulfilled. but thats just me..
You're not alone =)

And good luck!
 
I like the short cut. obviously your chances of a competitive residency are hindered but you can save yourself 2 years, $, and effort. But I think what phil said should be emphasized, you really should be prepaired for the school! some students do drop out and are not ready for the rigorous study demands. but basically if you want to save two years/$. or whatever and dont want to be a dermatologist and are a strong student (good study habitys, can deal with the carribean life change, etc.) then its a good option.... i am currently thinking about this myself.. im leaning towards AUC simply because i am really into IM and phsych.
 
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