Why psychology?

[Annakei]

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A third of the country is below the poverty line. I'm quite sure anyone with basic knowledge of budgets can live just fine on $60k, unless you're planning on septuplets...

There's fine and then there's surviving. Reality hits when you live in HCOL areas and frankly, when you have a doctorate, 60k is nothing compared to your colleagues and what they make in their respective professions.

 

[Aura5]

ugh. i can't imagine anything more boring than business and law school and their subsequent careers. not to mention the fact that you basically need to sell your soul in order to function in those professions. and medicine is too much of a time commitment.. when do you have time for life and family when you are an MD? they are definitely not for me either!

Ha, yeah, my mom always said I would make a good lawyer. I have a kind of 'developed' skill of being able to see through what people are saying, look past defense mechanisms, read-between-the-lines, etc., plus a good memory for what people have said/not said especially if it ties into emotional things etc. She says that would be useful as a lawyer.

Maybe...but with the selling the soul part...no offense to lawyers. But I don't want to use those skills to spend my life attacking other people and poking holes in arguements to "win." I use those tactics if needed in defense, but don't want to do it all the time, especially if I feel forced to 'fight' for something I don't necessarily agree with.

So it'd be much better to use those 'people-reading' skillz with something like psychology, to go along with my passion and empathy to help those who need it, who may have been given the short-stick end of life, all that...👍

 

[psychmama]

Ha, yeah, my mom always said I would make a good lawyer. I have a kind of 'developed' skill of being able to see through what people are saying, look past defense mechanisms, read-between-the-lines, etc., plus a good memory for what people have said/not said especially if it ties into emotional things etc. She says that would be useful as a lawyer.

Maybe...but with the selling the soul part...no offense to lawyers. But I don't want to use those skills to spend my life attacking other people and poking holes in arguements to "win." I use those tactics if needed in defense, but don't want to do it all the time, especially if I feel forced to 'fight' for something I don't necessarily agree with.

So it'd be much better to use those 'people-reading' skillz with something like psychology, to go along with my passion and empathy to help those who need it, who may have been given the short-stick end of life, all that...👍

Amazing. You just summed up why I left law practice and went into psychology. It's so good to be understood!😀

 

[lamorena]

Ha, yeah, my mom always said I would make a good lawyer. I have a kind of 'developed' skill of being able to see through what people are saying, look past defense mechanisms, read-between-the-lines, etc., plus a good memory for what people have said/not said especially if it ties into emotional things etc. She says that would be useful as a lawyer.

Maybe...but with the selling the soul part...no offense to lawyers. But I don't want to use those skills to spend my life attacking other people and poking holes in arguements to "win." I use those tactics if needed in defense, but don't want to do it all the time, especially if I feel forced to 'fight' for something I don't necessarily agree with.

So it'd be much better to use those 'people-reading' skillz with something like psychology, to go along with my passion and empathy to help those who need it, who may have been given the short-stick end of life, all that...👍

lawyer, nawh. that sounds more like good psychotherapy skills right there! 😉

 

[Aura5]

Amazing. You just summed up why I left law practice and went into psychology. It's so good to be understood!😀

Really? That's cool. See, now I feel warm and fuzzy that I made someone feel understood!

 

[Work Ethic]

Another consideration for those people who are interested in being able to prescribe psychoactive medication for MH conditions but not necessarily all other medical conditions is to become a medical psychologist--which can also be more financially rewarding. As it relates to the author of this thread, I think you are on the right track with clarifying your values as well as your short and long term goals in regard to vocational choice.

 

[Symone]

Well, I can't do anything I don't like for too long. If I start a job and I can immediately tell I won't like it, I don't hesitate to quit. Crazy right? With that being said, I simply like psychology. I've been through a few majors, but when I changed to psychology it kept my interest up. I don't know why i didn't start off doing psychology from the get go. So, I'm willing to take the wage cut to do something I truly like.

 

[Spacemonkey]

Great thread! I know I'm posting late, but here is my 2 cents. Symone, please don't be offended, but if you can't do something you don't like for too long, stay out of doctoral programs in general. There is guaranteed to he at least something you don't like, and they take a long time. Think Master's!
MD vs PhD: my perspective is as a PhD student (almost done), with many friends who have concurrently done med school. A previous poster said a phd was simpler, and I have to disagree. Don't get me wrong: med school is arduous and long. But it is much more straightforward and uncomplicated in terms of training campared to a (worthwhile) PhD, which is just and arduous and long, if you count post-doc position. When we started, my med school friends were not of this opinion; now, as they have gone offto perdue residencies, they have all told me that they don't understand how clin psych phds are expected to balance clinical and science training, accrue almost as much debt as medical students, and then go on to underpaid and undervalued ( we are like msws to them, respect-wise) positions. Yes, go ahead and subtract $1,000 permonth in student loan payments, then tell me $60,000 is a nice salary. That being said, I would do it all over again. Um, "I don't know... how to be anything...other than a psychologist," or some such sentiment. Seriously, it isn't that bad, but know the whole story. It isn't "chill." it is publish or perish in academia, and suck it up in practice.

 

[Spacemonkey]

"pursue" residencies.

 

[TheMyron]

I think medicine and psychology are both great fields to go into (ill begin working on my School Psych PhD next fall), but I don't think I want to go into a field that I wouldn't be absolutly happy to work in the rest of my life. I mean med school may lead to a way higher salary or more opprotunities (maybe, but with babyboomers retiring, maybe not), but if I wanted to make a ton of money, I wouldnt have gone into psychology! The ability to come home and be happy about my job everyday and not dread going back is my ultimate goal in life. If I wanted to make good money, I wouldnt have went to college and done construction lol!

 

[Schooled]

I was Psychology Pre-Med with plans to go into Psychiatry. What changed for me was seeing what Psychiatrists do day in and day out. Yes, they are paid a lot more, but, in my opinion, what they did (med management) wasn't all that interesting. They would have these short 5-10 min "interviews" that didn't resemble any therapy. It was mostly "straighten up and fly right" type of lectures. Now, I realize this is not true of all psychiatrists, but from what I've seen and heard, psychiatrists get paid and arm and a leg to do med management so that's what they do.

Now, if you're comparing Psychologist vs any other physician (say surgeon) then they are too different to compare, in my opinion. Both are doctoral level care providers, but thats about it. If you're interested in medicine, you need to find out what physicians of all sorts do.

 

[gunito]

Very good point. You see im looking for a career field which is interesting, i mean psychology in terms of training gets paid way to little. But Medicine provides to many cons as well, however is relatively better paid.. for the time being. But yah... Psychology sounds more chill and pleasant a career choice. But then again i get the feeling im the type of person that just loves studying something and understanding it well.

But yah.. i can always purse a phd in psychology when im old .

I was in the same position as you. I love the brain and want to know how every part of it works. I was interested in neuropsych, although i thought neurology may be a good idea, but i didnt want to do it just for money. After doing some research, i figured neurology is more along the lines of what i am interested in doing. Although money isnt why i choose medicine, the amount of money is something that i am aware of and i would prefer not to make 60k a year after so much work. To me, medicine makes since because i love chem, bio and all of that stuff. Knowing how the body works trumps my interest in how people work. The idea of doing OB-GYN and ER rotations frighten me, but i understand its something i have to do to get to where i want to be. A 300k debt isnt too bad considering one could expect to make 200k. That's 10k a month and 4k due in loans...leaves plenty left over for house, dog, cars, all that good stuff.

I do think it would be challenging if you went into medicine only for the money, you may get burnt out sooner than later. If you find it interesting, then go for it. I graduated with a BS in psych in 09 but i returned to school to complete the med school pre reqs this semester, and its the best decision ive made. Do your research and if there's an area of medicine that interest you, do it. 200k a year is a lot of money. What area are you interested in? How do you feel about science courses?

 

[EY1]

Whatever you do, make sure you make enormous life changing decisions based on what the internet tells you.

 

[PsychStudent82]

Why am I a psychologist? Because I don't know how NOT to be one. It's my passion and is in my blood. And believe me I tried very hard to avoid it both in college and after.

I agree! It's funny because I used to be a HORRIBLE student! I majored in many different things and just didn't excel at any of them my first 2 years of college. I couldn't figure out what I wanted to be. I took a psych course as an elective and was so intrigued by it all. I decided to become a Psych major and low and behold I started getting straight A's and sailing through all my psych classes. That doesn't mean they were easy. I was in love with the topic and it made it easy to study it and want to discuss it (as much as my family got sick of me talking about psychology). I now have a BA in psych an MA in mental health counseling and am entering a doctorate program in the fall for clinical psychology.

It's good that you are starting to think about all of this stuff early and good luck to you! I would say take classes within both fields and the answer of which to pick (or how to integrate your love for the two fields) will come quite easily to you once you are studying the material.

 

[VeggieDelight]

Physicians need therapy, too.

 

[student til 30]

.

 

[psychmama]

Wait until something really excites you, and you might just have the opportunity to do something you love and have the drive to do it well.

+1 to this

 

[MegglesPhD]

Being a clinical psychologist isn't about giving advice or imposing your will on others. I think you might do well as a surgeon.

Often times, therapy is about helping others develop insight, this is done through a variety of means, none of which require you to give your opinion or to impose your values on others. The changes, emotional and intellectual, are from the insight gained and not from "advice." I might add, clinical psychology is far more than just therapy.

Mark

I certainly have to agree with this. It is often a misconception that psychologists just talk about themselves and want people to be "like them" or "normal". Therapy and clinical psychology are far more than that.

 

[psychmama]

What did it for me was my first clinical experience. Although I was a nervous mess and had almost no idea what I was doing, I came out of this thinking "Wow -- people get paid to do this? I'd do it for free!" So despite all of the drawbacks to clinical psychology, here I am. And I wouldn't change a thing.😀

 

[Jegg]

What did it for me was my first clinical experience. Although I was a nervous mess and had almost no idea what I was doing, I came out of this thinking "Wow -- people get paid to do this? I'd do it for free!" So despite all of the drawbacks to clinical psychology, here I am. And I wouldn't change a thing.😀

Same. I came out of that first experience feeling like I was walking on air. The experience centered me. I knew then and there that, despite any monetary consequences, I had found the one vocation that could sustain me spiritually. I continue to have those kinds of experiences even after three years. The intensity of that experience has grown with the increase of my comfort in the settings I have worked in and with with my ability in those settings to effectively pursue non-confrontational means of communication when working with people.

 

[AgapeBlue]

I came out of that first experience feeling like I was walking on air.

Exactly.

 

[JuniperTree]

THIS IS NOT ADVICE - I am a pre-psychology undergraduate who wants to state her opinion and maybe get some advice!

I really and truly want to do research and am fascinated by all aspects of the human mind. I also love giving advice, although I am not particularly good at it; however I am good at listening and empathizing. But, my goal in getting a PhD in psych is purely research. I am aware of the difficulties in this and was actually considering doing an MD/PhD instead because of the access to grant money, and came up with the following pros and cons (as posted in the MD/PhD forum):

Pros:
- Love science (in psychology, would go into biopsychology or neuroscience)
- Guarantees a job at the end with a life of research
- Guarantees to earn enough money to put food on the table
- No worries about what to do if I don't get into grad school, and if I do get into grad school, being funded

Cons:
- Background in the sciences unrelated to psychology in some way is nonexistent although I'm planning to take 'Biology for [biology] majors' next semester.
- Adds a year to my undergraduate and I'm a junior aged 21
- Have very little research experience, all in psychology so far, and no contacts in the MD/PhD field
- Takes 4-5 years more than a PhD in psych

In the end, after speaking to a person who is very well placed in a parallel field, I've decided to try for a PhD in neuroscience. I will take chemistry and biology this summer. No one is guaranteed a job, but I will only attend a program that has funding for me, and at least I won't end up in debt.

Any thoughts? This is far from a fait accompli and any and all guidance would be appreciated.

 

[PsychScience]

THIS IS NOT ADVICE - I am a pre-psychology undergraduate who wants to state her opinion and maybe get some advice!

I really and truly want to do research and am fascinated by all aspects of the human mind. I also love giving advice, although I am not particularly good at it; however I am good at listening and empathizing. But, my goal in getting a PhD in psych is purely research. I am aware of the difficulties in this and was actually considering doing an MD/PhD instead because of the access to grant money, and came up with the following pros and cons (as posted in the MD/PhD forum):

Pros:
- Love science (in psychology, would go into biopsychology or neuroscience)
- Guarantees a job at the end with a life of research
- Guarantees to earn enough money to put food on the table
- No worries about what to do if I don't get into grad school, and if I do get into grad school, being funded

Cons:
- Background in the sciences unrelated to psychology in some way is nonexistent although I'm planning to take 'Biology for [biology] majors' next semester.
- Adds a year to my undergraduate and I'm a junior aged 21
- Have very little research experience, all in psychology so far, and no contacts in the MD/PhD field
- Takes 4-5 years more than a PhD in psych

In the end, after speaking to a person who is very well placed in a parallel field, I've decided to try for a PhD in neuroscience. I will take chemistry and biology this summer. No one is guaranteed a job, but I will only attend a program that has funding for me, and at least I won't end up in debt.

Any thoughts? This is far from a fait accompli and any and all guidance would be appreciated.

Personally, if I had to do it all over again, I would have gone the MD route, but that is just me. You mentioned you were thinking of getting your PhD in neuroscience. Did you mean neuroscience or clinical psychology with a concentration in neuropsyschology? Since I don't imagine many people in this section of the forum can speak to the merits of neuroscience specifically, I'm going to assume you meant clinical psychology (although, I'm sure there might be some, and if so, I hope they can give you some advice) But taking a look at your cons, I see a couple of things you may want to look at closer

- Have very little research experience, all in psychology so far, and no contacts in the MD/PhD field

When you say "little" research, exactly how little? You are going to be hard pressed to get into a funded clinical psychology PH.D program without a decent amount of research experience. Getting into these programs is actually more competitive in terms of the ratio of applicants to available spots than some medical schools. Whether MD/PhD or PhD, you are going to need to buff up on your research experience if you truly do have very little.

- Takes 4-5 years more than a PhD in psych
How long are you imagining it is going to take you to get your PhD? Assuming you meant clinical psychology with a concentration in neuropsyschology, it may take longer than you think. Neuropsychologists in my program typically spend 5-6 years in school doing research, clinical work, and classes (disclaimer: this is just my school, others may be shorter), and then 1 year on internship, this brings you up to 6-7 years just to get the PhD. Then, to get licensed, you have to do a post-doc, and to my knowledge, most neuropsychologists are actually expected to do a 2 year post-doc. So, at the end of the day, the neuropsychologists in my program spend on average 9-10 years working toward their degree and licensure.

This may not be the actual track you are planning on taking, and so the road may look quite different for you. I just wanted to point out the major hurdles for a typical clinical neuro person because many students are unaware of all the requirements before they start. The above, is just a few noteworthy elements. Best of luck with whatever you do!

 

[JuniperTree]

Personally, if I had to do it all over again, I would have gone the MD route, but that is just me. You mentioned you were thinking of getting your PhD in neuroscience. Did you mean neuroscience or clinical psychology with a concentration in neuropsyschology? Since I don't imagine many people in this section of the forum can speak to the merits of neuroscience specifically, I'm going to assume you meant clinical psychology (although, I'm sure there might be some, and if so, I hope they can give you some advice) But taking a look at your cons, I see a couple of things you may want to look at closer

I asked in the MD/PhD forum about getting an MD/PhD, since I could still go pre-med if that was right for me. The consensus seemed to be that the MD is only worth it if you also want to do patient care. I only want to do research and wouldn't mind training in therapy but definitely not as a career.

- Have very little research experience, all in psychology so far, and no contacts in the MD/PhD field

When you say "little" research, exactly how little? You are going to be hard pressed to get into a funded clinical psychology PH.D program without a decent amount of research experience. Getting into these programs is actually more competitive in terms of the ratio of applicants to available spots than some medical schools. Whether MD/PhD or PhD, you are going to need to buff up on your research experience if you truly do have very little.

I have a year of research experience in a top lab but no pubs, and am now looking for a position where I can get published. I still have a year and half before graduation so I will continue getting research experience.

- Takes 4-5 years more than a PhD in psych
How long are you imagining it is going to take you to get your PhD? Assuming you meant clinical psychology with a concentration in neuropsyschology, it may take longer than you think. Neuropsychologists in my program typically spend 5-6 years in school doing research, clinical work, and classes (disclaimer: this is just my school, others may be shorter), and then 1 year on internship, this brings you up to 6-7 years just to get the PhD. Then, to get licensed, you have to do a post-doc, and to my knowledge, most neuropsychologists are actually expected to do a 2 year post-doc. So, at the end of the day, the neuropsychologists in my program spend on average 9-10 years working toward their degree and licensure.

That's interesting. I wouldn't consider myself competent to do research if I can't actually do the therapy or testing used in the study, and am surprised that it is even possible to get a neuroscience PhD without it.

I don't know if I want to do clinical psychology and then neuroscience PhD, or just a neuroscience PhD.

This may not be the actual track you are planning on taking, and so the road may look quite different for you. I just wanted to point out the major hurdles for a typical clinical neuro person because many students are unaware of all the requirements before they start. The above, is just a few noteworthy elements. Best of luck with whatever you do!

Thank you and the same to you! I appreciate your sharing the hurdles in order that we (the readers of SDN) can make informed decisions.

 

[PsychScience]

That's interesting. I wouldn't consider myself competent to do research if I can't actually do the therapy or testing used in the study, and am surprised that it is even possible to get a neuroscience PhD without it.

I don't know if I want to do clinical psychology and then neuroscience PhD, or just a neuroscience PhD.

I may be wrong on this or misunderstand what you are saying, but it sounds like you may be a little confused about the differences between neuropsychology (the clinical psychology route) and the PhD neuroscience route.

If you get your PhD in neuroscience you will be studying the brain and the nervous system, you will not be getting training in therapy or in testing. You will be studying things like cell structure and neuroanatomy. You will not do clinical work in the way you might be thinking. When you get the degree you will not be a psychologist, or have any training in psychology, you will be a neuroscientist. There is no reason to be licensed in the same way you would need to be as a neuropsychologist because you aren't really providing or researching patient care in the same way.

Again, I may be wrong, but it sounds like what you are interested in is clinical neuropsychology, that is working with clinical populations (assessing, diagnosing, treating) who might have neurocognitive deficits.

You might want to try this link for an interesting discussion of the difference

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=9619582

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I asked in the MD/PhD forum about getting an MD/PhD, since I could still go pre-med if that was right for me. The consensus seemed to be that the MD is only worth it if you also want to do patient care. I only want to do research and wouldn't mind training in therapy but definitely not as a career.

I have a year of research experience in a top lab but no pubs, and am now looking for a position where I can get published. I still have a year and half before graduation so I will continue getting research experience.

That's interesting. I wouldn't consider myself competent to do research if I can't actually do the therapy or testing used in the study, and am surprised that it is even possible to get a neuroscience PhD without it.

I don't know if I want to do clinical psychology and then neuroscience PhD, or just a neuroscience PhD.

Thank you and the same to you! I appreciate your sharing the hurdles in order that we (the readers of SDN) can make informed decisions.

To address one point PsychScience also mentioned--clinical psychology/neuropsychology and neuroscience are two completely different degree paths. One entails, as you would expect, entering a clinical psychology program and gaining specialized training in neuropsychology along the way. Conversely, neuroscience is a separate program/department offering a research-only degree (i.e., you cannot be licensed to practice psychology, medicine, or anything else--to the best of my knowledge--with a doctorate in neuroscience).

Both paths could lead to you focusing entirely on research; the difference is that with neuropsychology, you'd have the option of licensure and clinical practice. Conversely, with neuroscience, you'd potentially spend more time on some of the neuro research methodologies (imagine studies and the like), as you wouldn't have to worry about obtaining competence in areas such as psychological assessment, ethics, psychotherapy, etc.

As for my own personal view, I began college as pre-med, and eventually switched to psychology. I'm definitely to be counted in the group of those who does not regret that decision. Am I still interested in medicine, and do I still respect what physicians do? Very much so, but it's not something I personally am interested in pursuing.

 

[O Gurl]

I doubled majored with psychology and pre-med. I was accepted into med school, however, decided on the psychology route as this was my passion. 7 years later and almost at the end of my PsyD program I regret not seriously considering the financial ramifications. Back then at 26 years old 60K seemed a lot to me as I was only making $8/hour at the time. I now earn around 60K and I am truely annoyed after the blood, sweat and tears that went into earning my doctorate that the financial return seems minimal compared to my expertise level. Physician Assistants with less training make more money. So think about it very carefully because money does make a difference especially as you mature and have a family.

My perspective in terms of earning potential is quite different. I am starting my career at a VA. An internship supervisor and I were discussing pay issues in regards to doing a 1-yr (clinical) or 2-yr (research) postdoc. He then showed me a beautiful document known as the GS- pay scale 2011 for federal employees. Basically, I can earn $47K next year and then enter as a GS-12 at $77K or can do 2 years of postdoc (also between $47-50K) then enter as a GS-13 at $92K. I attend a (mostly) funded Clinical PhD program so I do have some loans, but nothing crippling (between $50-$60K, mainly because I lived beyond my means). There is also extra earning potential if one engages in research, training, or private practice after hours and if one pursues ABPP certification. So there is no blanket economic trajectory for psychology. In many ways if can be whatever you make it. If one chooses a PsyD versus PhD, it has implications. Also, if one pursues a community mental health center career vs. academia vs. VA/Med Center, it has implications.

Edit: the figures quoted includes locality pay, which varies.

 

[JuniperTree]

I may be wrong on this or misunderstand what you are saying, but it sounds like you may be a little confused about the differences between neuropsychology (the clinical psychology route) and the PhD neuroscience route.

You are correct, I am more than a little confused. 🙂

If you get your PhD in neuroscience you will be studying the brain and the nervous system, you will not be getting training in therapy or in testing. You will be studying things like cell structure and neuroanatomy. You will not do clinical work in the way you might be thinking. When you get the degree you will not be a psychologist, or have any training in psychology, you will be a neuroscientist. There is no reason to be licensed in the same way you would need to be as a neuropsychologist because you aren't really providing or researching patient care in the same way.

This sounds perfect for me actually (not having clinical work.)

Again, I may be wrong, but it sounds like what you are interested in is clinical neuropsychology, that is working with clinical populations (assessing, diagnosing, treating) who might have neurocognitive deficits.

Actually, I was very confused about the terminology in my above post, but in the link you provided, Cognitive Neuroscience described my interests precisely. Definitely not assessment, diagnosis or treatment of cognitive deficits.

You might want to try this link for an interesting discussion of the difference
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=9619582

Thanks! That really explained what was confusing me clearly.

To address one point PsychScience also mentioned--clinical psychology/neuropsychology and neuroscience are two completely different degree paths. One entails, as you would expect, entering a clinical psychology program and gaining specialized training in neuropsychology along the way. Conversely, neuroscience is a separate program/department offering a research-only degree (i.e., you cannot be licensed to practice psychology, medicine, or anything else--to the best of my knowledge--with a doctorate in neuroscience).

Both paths could lead to you focusing entirely on research; the difference is that with neuropsychology, you'd have the option of licensure and clinical practice. Conversely, with neuroscience, you'd potentially spend more time on some of the neuro research methodologies (imagine studies and the like), as you wouldn't have to worry about obtaining competence in areas such as psychological assessment, ethics, psychotherapy, etc.

As for my own personal view, I began college as pre-med, and eventually switched to psychology. I'm definitely to be counted in the group of those who does not regret that decision. Am I still interested in medicine, and do I still respect what physicians do? Very much so, but it's not something I personally am interested in pursuing.

Do you do research or patient care?

Thank you. Spending time on research is way more attractive to me than clinical. Like you, I am interested in medicine and respect physicians, but am not interested in the clinical aspect.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

You are correct, I am more than a little confused. 🙂

This sounds perfect for me actually (not having clinical work.)

Actually, I was very confused about the terminology in my above post, but in the link you provided, Cognitive Neuroscience described my interests precisely. Definitely not assessment, diagnosis or treatment of cognitive deficits.

Thanks! That really explained what was confusing me clearly.

Do you do research or patient care?

Thank you. Spending time on research is way more attractive to me than clinical. Like you, I am interested in medicine and respect physicians, but am not interested in the clinical aspect.

I'm in a clinical psychology program that offers additional specialized training in neuropsychology, so my time does include a significant amount of clinical work (psychological and neuropsychological). My personal research interests also tend to be clinically-oriented (e.g., involve patient populations and clinical assessment instruments), but there are many neuropsychologists who do almost entirely-theoretical research. Thus, my personal interest in clinical work is high, I simply prefer this type of clinical work to the practice of medicine.

But yes, if clinical work does not at all appeal to you, a neuroscience program sounds like it could be an excellent fit.

 

[Psychology 76]

THIS IS NOT ADVICE - I am a pre-psychology undergraduate who wants to state her opinion and maybe get some advice!

I really and truly want to do research and am fascinated by all aspects of the human mind. I also love giving advice, although I am not particularly good at it; however I am good at listening and empathizing. But, my goal in getting a PhD in psych is purely research. I am aware of the difficulties in this and was actually considering doing an MD/PhD instead because of the access to grant money, and came up with the following pros and cons (as posted in the MD/PhD forum):

Pros:
- Love science (in psychology, would go into biopsychology or neuroscience)
- Guarantees a job at the end with a life of research
- Guarantees to earn enough money to put food on the table
- No worries about what to do if I don't get into grad school, and if I do get into grad school, being funded

Cons:
- Background in the sciences unrelated to psychology in some way is nonexistent although I'm planning to take 'Biology for [biology] majors' next semester.
- Adds a year to my undergraduate and I'm a junior aged 21
- Have very little research experience, all in psychology so far, and no contacts in the MD/PhD field
- Takes 4-5 years more than a PhD in psych

In the end, after speaking to a person who is very well placed in a parallel field, I've decided to try for a PhD in neuroscience. I will take chemistry and biology this summer. No one is guaranteed a job, but I will only attend a program that has funding for me, and at least I won't end up in debt.

Any thoughts? This is far from a fait accompli and any and all guidance would be appreciated.

I agree with the other posters that the neuroscience/cognitive neuroscience phd route seems the best option for you.

I think I'm the only (or one of the few) person/people on this board who is applying to cognitive neuroscience phd programs so feel free to PM me with any questions 🙂

 

[JuniperTree]

I'm in a clinical psychology program that offers additional specialized training in neuropsychology, so my time does include a significant amount of clinical work (psychological and neuropsychological). My personal research interests also tend to be clinically-oriented (e.g., involve patient populations and clinical assessment instruments), but there are many neuropsychologists who do almost entirely-theoretical research. Thus, my personal interest in clinical work is high, I simply prefer this type of clinical work to the practice of medicine.

But yes, if clinical work does not at all appeal to you, a neuroscience program sounds like it could be an excellent fit.

That's very interesting. Thank you for clarifying what neuropsychologists do - it sounds very flexible in terms of choosing how much clinical care you have to do.

 

[JuniperTree]

I agree with the other posters that the neuroscience/cognitive neuroscience phd route seems the best option for you.

I think I'm the only (or one of the few) person/people on this board who is applying to cognitive neuroscience phd programs so feel free to PM me with any questions 🙂

Thank you - will do! 🙂

 

[edieb]

[QUOTE=O Gurl;10553193]My perspective in terms of earning potential is quite different. I am starting my career at a VA. An internship supervisor and I were discussing pay issues in regards to doing a 1-yr (clinical) or 2-yr (research) postdoc. He then showed me a beautiful document known as the GS- pay scale 2011 for federal employees. Basically, I can earn $47K next year and then enter as a GS-12 at $77K or can do 2 years of postdoc (also between $47-50K) then enter as a GS-13 at $92K. I attend a (mostly) funded Clinical PhD program so I do have some loans, but nothing crippling (between $50-$60K, mainly because I lived beyond my means). There is also extra earning potential if one engages in research, training, or private practice after hours and if one pursues ABPP certification. So there is no blanket economic trajectory for psychology. In many ways if can be whatever you make it. If one chooses a PsyD versus PhD, it has implications. Also, if one pursues a community mental health center career vs. academia vs. VA/Med Center, it has implications.

Be careful thinking the ABPP certification will yield you much more money. The V.A. does not give psychologists much more money after they're boarded and when you consider you have to pay a very high fee to take the test and a yearly fee to stay boarded, you actually break even.

 

[O Gurl]

Be careful thinking the ABPP certification will yield you much more money. The V.A. does not give psychologists much more money after they're boarded and when you consider you have to pay a very high fee to take the test and a yearly fee to stay boarded, you actually break even.

Point taken. One must always factor in "fees". *sigh* 🙁

Thankfully, I still see value in the pursuit of board certification from an ideological perspective.

 

[MKE88]

So there is no blanket economic trajectory for psychology. In many ways if can be whatever you make it. If one chooses a PsyD versus PhD, it has implications. Also, if one pursues a community mental health center career vs. academia vs. VA/Med Center, it has implications.

Edit: the figures quoted includes locality pay, which varies.

Sounds like you're in great shape! Does this include university psychiatry departments? Also, if you don't mind me asking - does your research/dissertation area play the bigger role in securing a great job like this one, or can it be based more on program performance? (I'm trying to figure out how far ahead one needs to plan...)

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Be careful thinking the ABPP certification will yield you much more money. The V.A. does not give psychologists much more money after they're boarded and when you consider you have to pay a very high fee to take the test and a yearly fee to stay boarded, you actually break even.

Instead of alluding to "very high fees", I'll just list what they are:
(http://www.abpp.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3477)

Application: $125 ($25 if you apply during post-doc)
Written Exam: $300 (neuro req., maybe a couple other specialties)
Practice Review Exam: $250
Oral Exam: $450
$100 discount if you have an ABPP in another area or CPQ.

$185/yr is the membership fee, $50/yr for retired.

They are hardly "very high". The money goes towards supporting our profession through boarding, since the APA is not pulling their fair share.

Professionals with ABPP can and do asking for more $, are well respected by peers, and often hold leadership positions.

 

[O Gurl]

Sounds like you're in great shape! Does this include university psychiatry departments? Also, if you don't mind me asking - does your research/dissertation area play the bigger role in securing a great job like this one, or can it be based more on program performance? (I'm trying to figure out how far ahead one needs to plan...)

Roughly, the best paying positions for clinical psychologists are:

1. military/DoD and correctional facilities (at least in the early years, then the benefit kinda plateaus)
2. medical centers, including: VAs/specialty medical centers (cancer center)/university hospitals (depts of psychiatry, neurology, oncology, bariatrics and transplant, etc).
3. private practice/specialty evaluations (forensics, neuropsychology, child development)
4.academia (depts. of psychology, public health, education)
6. private practice (general, therapy-focused)
6. community mental health centers

Also, within this, certain clinical psychologists tend to be paid slightly more, like neuropsychologists.

That is just a rough breakdown and I am sure others probably have some different experiences. I'd say it is never too early to plan for where you want to end up. If you have an interest in positions listed at #2, then you really want to look for grad schools that offer practica and nearby externships in hospital settings. Make sure to develop balanced training with solid intervention hours (evidence-supported treatments in particular), solid assessment experience (IQ, personality, cognitive), and research productivity. The general trend across medical sites is a push toward empirical practices, so neglecting research can be a big problem. As for the dissertation in particular, it probably helps to have studied an area that is in line with your career goals, but for medical center careers, I think your progress with it is most important. Just get it done in a timely manner. It will open doors to medical center jobs because you will be so much more competitive for those internships if you are proposed/nearly defended when you apply and for post-doc if you are defended by the time you apply.

Not sure if I answered your question, but these are my general thoughts.

 

[O Gurl]

They are hardly "very high". The money goes towards supporting our profession through boarding, since the APA is not pulling their fair share.

Professionals with ABPP can and do asking for more $, are well respected by peers, and often hold leadership positions.

I would agree that the cost is justified. Thanks for posting that info. 🙂

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I would agree that the cost is justified. Thanks for posting that info. 🙂

I am a big supporter of boarding (spec. ABPP), and I think our field is better for it.

 

[edieb]

I am a big supporter of boarding (spec. ABPP), and I think our field is better for it.

Value is relative and when looked at it in this context, those are very, very high fees, especially when you consider ABPP is nothing more than a vanity board (look at the entrance requirement -- pretty much anybody can become boarded) and that boarding gets you a one step increase in the V.A. system. One step equals around $600-700 before taxes. Health insurance allows you to bill no more if you are boarded. Thus, after you figure in the initial buy in (don't forget airfare, hotel, etc), you are basically breaking even.

I can see the value of boarding if you're an M.D. -- they deal much more with life and death issues (surgery, etc) and their boarding process gives patients and hospitals an extra layer of security. While what neuropsychologists and psychologists do is important, the clinical portion of our work could be done by someone with only a master's degree and, therefore, it is rather narcissistic to think our work should require boarding after receiving a PhD .


The problem with the profession is not too little education, it's things like: too narrow a scope of practice, other professions with identical scopes of practice, etc. Literally nobody cares whether you're boarded, most don't even care where you received your doctorate...

If you really want to spend your time on something that will make you more money or give you more prestige, go get your NP or Master's in psychopharmcology... I imagine if you were to look at the increased salary of boarding versus what the ability to prescribe and unprescribe will give you, I imagine there is little comparison.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Value is relative and when looked at it in this context, those are very, very high fees, especially when you consider ABPP is nothing more than a vanity board (look at the entrance requirement -- pretty much anybody can become boarded).

Seriously? That is your argument? You sound like the ABPP kicked your puppy or something. A vanity board is one that anyone can get without bothering to meet any type of rigorous criteria.

I can see the value of boarding if you're an M.D. -- they deal much more with life and death issues (surgery, etc) and their boarding process gives patients and hospitals an extra layer of security. While what neuropsychologists and psychologists do is important, the clinical portion of our work could be done by someone with only a master's degree and, therefore, it is rather narcissistic to think our work should require boarding after receiving a PhD .

Maybe YOU want to discount the training, but I find that offensive. If someone can directly contribute to a person being found unfit to manage their finances, drive, make medical decisions, etc....that is worth protecting.

The problem with the profession is not too little education, it's things like: too narrow a scope of practice, other professions with identical scopes of practice, etc. Literally nobody cares whether you're boarded, most don't even care where you received your doctorate...

My academic medical center now requires all clinical psychology faculty (psychologists/neuropsychologists/rehabilitation psychologists) to be boarded. Other places already require this. You'll probably argue that not everyone wants this....but many of those same arguments are from people who don't qualify, don't want to put in the effort, and/or can't get it.

If you really want to spend your time on something that will make you more money or give you more prestige, go get your NP or Master's in psychopharmcology... I imagine if you were to look at the increased salary of boarding versus what the ability to prescribe and unprescribe will give you, I imagine there is little comparison.

The purpose of boarding is not to make more, though that is a very common benefit, the purpose is to ensure that the clinician is well trained and an expert in the area they practice.

 

[edieb]

Seriously? That is your argument? You sound like the ABPP kicked your puppy or something. A vanity board is one that anyone can get without bothering to meet any type of rigorous criteria.



Maybe YOU want to discount the training, but I find that offensive.



My academic medical center now requires all clinical psychology faculty (psychologists/neuropsychologists/rehabilitation psychologists) to be boarded. Other places like Mayo already require this. You'll probably argue that not everyone wants this....but many of those same arguments are from people who don't qualify, don't want to put in the effort, and/or can't get it.



The purpose of boarding is not to make more, though that is a very common benefit, the purpose is to ensure that the clinician is well trained and an expert in the area they practice.

A classmate who is licensed has been on facutly at Mayo for a year or two. She is not boarded. I will have to ask her about this. I also checked out the Mayo website, don't see many ABPPs on there: http://www.mayoclinic.org/psychiatry-rst/doctors.htm

There is no set defintion for "vanity board". However, it connotes a board that has very loose criteria for admission. This is what ABPP is. You don't even have to have a formal post doc in health psychology to be ABPP boarded in health psychology, lol. I could get training at the Beck Institue in ct or get boarded at ABPP with a written and oral exam. One would have ABPP after his name, the other would not. HOwever, who wouldd you rather see?

We need to stop trying to inflate our training to such an absurd extent. Again, what we do is very important. However, these endless hoops (fighting for internships, fighting for post-docs, etc) need to stop somewhere. We don't make enough to spend all this money and time on these things. Instead of spending more time on jumping through arbitrary hoops, some of us would like to have a life after the Ph.D. or choose to study things that are actually going to help our patients

 

[DrGero]

Value is relative and when looked at it in this context, those are very, very high fees, especially when you consider ABPP is nothing more than a vanity board (look at the entrance requirement -- pretty much anybody can become boarded) and that boarding gets you a one step increase in the V.A. system. One step equals around $600-700 before taxes. Health insurance allows you to bill no more if you are boarded. Thus, after you figure in the initial buy in (don't forget airfare, hotel, etc), you are basically breaking even.

I can see the value of boarding if you're an M.D. -- they deal much more with life and death issues (surgery, etc) and their boarding process gives patients and hospitals an extra layer of security. While what neuropsychologists and psychologists do is important, the clinical portion of our work could be done by someone with only a master's degree and, therefore, it is rather narcissistic to think our work should require boarding after receiving a PhD .


The problem with the profession is not too little education, it's things like: too narrow a scope of practice, other professions with identical scopes of practice, etc. Literally nobody cares whether you're boarded, most don't even care where you received your doctorate...

If you really want to spend your time on something that will make you more money or give you more prestige, go get your NP or Master's in psychopharmcology... I imagine if you were to look at the increased salary of boarding versus what the ability to prescribe and unprescribe will give you, I imagine there is little comparison.

Boarding looks like around a 700 dollar investment. Focusing on the VA, that would mean you would make that back in about 1-2 years. But when your step increases have slowed significantly (e.g., step 7 and up) the increase that early bump can give you can equate to several hundred or several thousand dollars across several years.

In addition, when you consider that FERS (Federal Employee Retirement System) calculates your pension based on your 'high five' (top five earning years of employment), that bump could mean untold hundreds or thousands of additional retirement dollars over a lifetime.

Lastly, while ABPP won't actually get you more money when you're billing insurance, I understand that for those of us interested in a career in psycholegal consulting, boarding is looked on favorably. There are probably other benefits. I'm certainly going to be pursuing it, at least by the time I reach step 7, and perhaps earlier (given the world of pay freezes federal employees now live in).

So, I am definitely going to pursue boarding before long - the only other question is whether I would be interested in psychopharmacology specialization. It's no secret I'm more than often consulted with psychopharm. questions by the internal medicine docs here at the CLC. Would be nice to get paid extra for such a thing (say as a side consulting job). The only question I have is, what's the value of psychopharmacology specialty training for a psychologist if you're in a state with no prescribing psychology licensing privileges as of yet (say, California?). Would a masters and appropriate training still translate into meaningful consulting opportunities (and extra $$$?) or would it be a waste unless you could actually prescribe? Just curious.

 

[erg923]

I would also just like to add that I have long argued that boarding, particualrly in neuropsychology has 1.) in no way elevated the status of the profession (since no one outside the profession really knows or cares). Even when they do, although it looks good on paper (eg., on a CV in a court case), its really is not very functional, unless you work in a medical center or in a VA 2.) the process (in neuropsychology at least) is inordinately expensive and time consuming (How bout just an exit exam and some sample report submissions following npsych post-doc?) Why more hoop jumping? When there is little functional payoff for that sacrifice, I say "not interested." Largely arbitrary hoops dont help patients and really arent elevating the profession, thus far anyway. I am much more inclined to say "I have fought for my internship, finished my Ph.D., done my post doc, passed the EPPP, now please just let me lead my life."

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I would also just like to add that I have long argued that boarding, particualrly in neuropsychology has 1.) in no way elevated the status of the profession (since no one outside the profession really knows or cares). Even when they do, although it looks good on paper (eg., on a CV in a court case), its really is not very functional, unless you work in a medical center or in a VA 2.) the process (in neuropsychology at least) is inordinately expensive and time consuming (How bout just an exit exam and some sample report submissions following npsych post-doc?) Why more hoop jumping? When there is little functional payoff for that sacrifice, I say "not interested." Largely arbitrary hoops dont help patients and really arent elevating the profession, thus far anyway. I am much more inclined to say "I have fought for my internship, finished my Ph.D., done my post doc, passed the EPPP, now please just let me lead my life."

Quite a few fellowships req. their fellows to sit for and pass the ABPP exam. Submitting sample reports is part of the process too. Add in an oral defense and you get....ABPP boarding.

So now you admit it is good for: medical centers, VAs, on your CV, and in court. Those are all good reasons to get it, compared to what reasons to not? The fee? The time? Eh...both are negligible.

 

[erg923]

I admit that because they require it in many cases, and yes, it looks like you are rewarded financially for it. I just dont understand the underlying rationale for that requirement. It looks good on paper...but...?

I dont think the cost and time is negligible, especially not for someone with a growing family or starting a family. I would think this would be especially important to the increasing female demographic in this profession as well, not just me (a male). When 60 something percent of people drop out of the npsych boarding process (ill have to find the citation for that, I admit), something is wrong there. Its not like your dealing with a lazy population there.

 

[edieb]

Psychology is a crazy profession. With the insane admissions standards, the torture that is graduate school, fighting for an internship and post-doc, studying for the EPPP, etc. Now people want to add boarding to the whole process. We are expected to take on all the hurdles (if not more) than a physician, but we make a fraction. It's a joke and a joke I am not buying

 

[O Gurl]

Psychology is a crazy profession. With the insane admissions standards, the torture that is graduate school, fighting for an internship and post-doc, studying for the EPPP, etc. Now people want to add boarding to the whole process. We are expected to take on all the hurdles (if not more) than a physician, but we make a fraction. It's a joke and a joke I am not buying

I understand the exacerbation with the hurdles, but simply arguing that the hoops aren’t worth the pay is shortsighted. I agree that clinical psychologists are grossly underpaid for the amount of training and expertise we hold. However, I view boarding as an opportunity to regain legitimacy for our craft, particularly as the level of expertise of “psychologists” becomes more and more varied due to the outsourcing of our training to for-profit scam machines. I would pursue ABPP to distinguish myself from the buy-a-degrees if nothing else. Also, I am coming from a perspective outside of NP, and in the world of trauma, health, and rehabilitation, there is still a need for some sort of standard of “expertise.” I can speak more to the rehabilitation side of things as I have trained in blind rehab, spinal cord injury, and polytrauma/TBI environments. I have experienced startling differences between actual rehabilitation psychologists and psychologists who are simply practicing in a setting with disabled/injured patients—if that makes sense. There are those who take the extra effort to understand and integrate the physiological/neurological processes and the work of the rehab specialists (OT, PT, KT, speech therapists, etc) in their approach to care and then there are those who simply try to identify rehab patients who are particularly depressed or anxious and apply the same exact approach that they would in any other setting—ignoring the context. So maybe I am being a bit too ideological, but I think that mental health patients have just as much of a right to know that the clinician they are seeing is specially trained to meet their needs, just like a person seeking a particular sort of surgery (cosmetic, cardiac, orthopedic) is entitled to have that sense of security. And who knows? It may set the stage for us to be able to argue for increased pay.

 

[edieb]

I understand the exacerbation with the hurdles, but simply arguing that the hoops aren't worth the pay is shortsighted. I agree that clinical psychologists are grossly underpaid for the amount of training and expertise we hold. However, I view boarding as an opportunity to regain legitimacy for our craft, particularly as the level of expertise of "psychologists" becomes more and more varied due to the outsourcing of our training to for-profit scam machines. I would pursue ABPP to distinguish myself from the buy-a-degrees if nothing else. Also, I am coming from a perspective outside of NP, and in the world of trauma, health, and rehabilitation, there is still a need for some sort of standard of "expertise." I can speak more to the rehabilitation side of things as I have trained in blind rehab, spinal cord injury, and polytrauma/TBI environments. I have experienced startling differences between actual rehabilitation psychologists and psychologists who are simply practicing in a setting with disabled/injured patients—if that makes sense. There are those who take the extra effort to understand and integrate the physiological/neurological processes and the work of the rehab specialists (OT, PT, KT, speech therapists, etc) in their approach to care and then there are those who simply try to identify rehab patients who are particularly depressed or anxious and apply the same exact approach that they would in any other setting—ignoring the context. So maybe I am being a bit too ideological, but I think that mental health patients have just as much of a right to know that the clinician they are seeing is specially trained to meet their needs, just like a person seeking a particular sort of surgery (cosmetic, cardiac, orthopedic) is entitled to have that sense of security. And who knows? It may set the stage for us to be able to argue for increased pay.

MH patients do have a right to the best quality of care; however, ABPP does nothing to guarantee that they are receiving this. In fact, it probably detracts from the quality of care because preparing for the exam actually takes time away from independent work you could do to learn more about your specialty such as improving your therapy skills, etc.

I probably would have agreed with you that ABPP would distinguish you from other clinical psychologists. However, just receiving my Ph.D., I realize that these kind of denotations don't really help you in the workplace or out in the real world. You really need to develop a skill or area where you are one of the few experts, that can generate employers/lawyers, etc., extra revenue and that other people can't just usurp dominance in (saying your nice is in child trauma w/ no publications, etc just allows someone else to call themselves an expert and compete with you).

 

[O Gurl]

MH patients do have a right to the best quality of care; however, ABPP does nothing to guarantee that they are receiving this. In fact, it probably detracts from the quality of care because preparing for the exam actually takes time away from independent work you could do to learn more about your specialty such as improving your therapy skills, etc.

Oh, c'mon now! Surely you jest! Sheesh... you make it sound like a never-ending process requiring hours of routine maintenance each week for the rest of your career. Yes, the application probably sucks, but like everything else (EPPP, hospital credentialing) you get through it and it is done. And while nothing guarantees a provider's work, boarding at least signifies some mastery and advanced training in the area of practice. I don't know about you, but I am ever (God-forbid) disabled or traumatized, I'd want to know that the person working to help me through it has some significant knowledge about my needs. Using my VA as an example, I wouldn't just want the psychologist from comprehensive mental health who was transferred to the women's trauma unit because of funding issues.