Why should I pretend to be empathetic if I'm not?

[78222]

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We just got grades back for some stupid physical exam we had and the "patient" rated my empathy as "poor". Give me a break? What am I supposed to do, plant myself in her bulging, obese, bosome and cry because her "cat died"? **** that noise. My empathy was asking if everything was alright. Thats all the empathy you get from me for a dead, nonexistant cat. Further, in my family people don't wear their emotions on their sleeves. That is not a particularly desirable characteristic despite what the douches who design these courses think.

She also claimed that I need to slow down on the history. Well, sorry sister, see, we got this thing called a time limit. Hell, my preceptor's patients would be lucky to get half the time I gave this woman.

This crap is not going to make anyone any more empathetic, its going to make people resent being told to pretend to care.

Surgery here I come.

 

[Blake]

You've turned this forum into your space. 👍

 

[78222]

You've turned this forum into your space. 👍

Well, you see the work Panda has to go to, to get people to read his blog. This is much easier 😀

 

[Blake]

Well, you see the work Panda has to go to, to get people to read his blog. This is much easier 😀

Indeed. Panda is the man though.

 

[Trail Boss]

Oh this is to easy. Didn't you get the memo about the study reporting that patients are less likely to sue if they like you? Empathy has become doctor code for "trick to not get sued" As for another reason, well (cough) there is a rumor that empathy and a theraputic relationship actually helps patients and that should interest us, ya know, being doctors and all.

 

[BaylorGuy]

Indeed. Panda is the man though.

Actually, i believe you meant to say to surebreC that "Indeed. Panda is a man though."

I agree

 

[78222]

Oh this is to easy. Didn't you get the memo about the study reporting that patients are less likely to sue if they like you? Empathy has become doctor code for "trick to not get sued" As for another reason, well (cough) there is a rumor that empathy and a theraputic relationship actually helps patients and that should interest us, ya know, being doctors and all.

So I am supposed to coddle my patient that "lost her pet" because then she wont sue me? (For the record, I recall saying "that's too bad, it isn't easy losing a pet, so its not like I said "HAH BITCH YOUR CAT IS DEAD AND THERE IS NO CAT HEAVEN!). I am all for being empathetic if it is deserved empathy. I will not however put on a show for something I feel nothing about. In fact, I dount I will put on a show anyway. I have personal standards, and one is that I will be honest with my patients - regardless of whether it hurts their feelings or fails to make them feel better.

 

[Gut Shot]

So I am supposed to coddle my patient

So you don't want to "coddle" anyone, yet you whine incessantly when the rest of the world doesn't conform to your own whims.

Boy, you're a narcissistic little *****, aren't you?

 

[78222]

So you don't want to "coddle" anyone, yet you whine incessantly when the rest of the world doesn't conform to your own whims.

Boy, you're a narcissistic little *****, aren't you?

More or less but what does that have to do with anything? And how am I whining about conforming? I am just saying, that fake empathy is not a desirable quality. In fact, I would say fakeness in general is not a good thing. I am generally nice to pretty much everyone anyway (at least in the "Real world"), not because I am afraid of them suing me, but because it just seems like a good way to treat people. Further, I am a fairly empathetic guy, but I don't like that I have to say "HEY LOOK AT ME, I AM BEING EMPATHETIC, LOOK LOOK LOOOK LOOOK!!!! HEY DO YOU SEE ME BEING EMPATHETIC????"

 

[Gut Shot]

More or less but what does that have to do with anything?

Here's a little exercise for you. Next time you have to eat a **** sandwich, just put on a happy face, look for the silver lining, and quietly endure it. You know, like a man. It will be tempting to start yet another thread to vent about some uninteresting aspect of your existence, but resist. Just once.

In the meantime, I wish you an extremely long and prosperous career as a geriatrician at the Long Island Center for Elderly Hypochondriacs.

 

[trustwomen]

Here's a little exercise for you. Next time you have to eat a **** sandwich, just put on a happy face, look for the silver lining, and quietly endure it.

In the same vein, I heard a great line last week:

We all have our **** to eat; happiness is a question of appetite.

 

[78222]

Here's a little exercise for you. Next time you have to eat a **** sandwich, just put on a happy face, look for the silver lining, and quietly endure it. You know, like a man. It will be tempting to start yet another thread to vent about some uninteresting aspect of your existence, but resist. Just once.

In the meantime, I wish you an extremely long and prosperous career as a geriatrician at the Long Island Center for Elderly Hypochondriacs.

I vent here so that I don't have to vent at people around me. So, how about next time you get the urge to click on one of the links to a thread about some completely uninteresting aspect of my life (and I'll agree, it is uninteresting but I'm in medschool and there isn't a lot of excitement going on - hell this is probably the most excitement I've had all week), resist that urge.

And why in the hell would I be a geriatrician in Long Island? I hate old people and Long Island (And I'm not sure which one smells worse).

(before anyone gets offended, I don't really hate Long Island - just old people)

 

[78222]

In the same vein, I heard a great line last week:

We all have our **** to eat; happiness is a question of appetite.

Of course, maybe if people in the medical field didn't have such a propensity towards **** eating, they'd serve something else in the cafeterias

 

[kirexhana]

well, in all seriousness, having a patient believe that you empathize with them would really help in a complete history taking because they would be more inclined to share with you things that they would be too embarassed to, otherwise. i mean, if a male patient think that you're being a judgmental prick, he might feel uncomfortable sharing his ED with you. and they might just turn out to be a vital clue as to solving his case. so 1) empathy helps you to get patient to open up

it also helps build rapport, and that is how you get patients to comply with treatments that they might not follow too strictly if they don't trust you. therefore, 2) empathy will help you build a good relationship with your patient, and that's important because you want a patient to follow your instructions outside of the hospital, dont you?

honestly, it doesn't take all that long to add a bit of compassion to what you say to a patient, maybe you need to open yourself up to criticism instead of locking down and saying i'm right and they're wrong, empathy is for losers.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

I posted a thread about this a while back on a different forum, and got my share of flames. But the fact remains, "empathy" and "sensitivity" courses at med school are 100% useless. If you are not empathetic or sensitive by the age of 22, a course (poorly) designed by people with masters degrees in humanities is simply not going to change that.

I've never heard someone say, "Man I was such an a$$-hole... until I saw that PowerPoint presentation that changed my life!"

Besides, there's plenty of room in medicine for people who have little empathy. Someone's got to be the vascular surgeon, right? 😀

 

[deleted109597]

They made us take our "empathy" class with first year nursing students. You know, 18 year old girls who giggle when we said things like vagina and wouldn't say things like cancer.
Having empathy is one thing. Faking it so that you can get a good grade in your touchy feely class is another. I kept wanting to say evil things that came to mind while discussing one fake patients fake mother with her. (You know why they cut her legs off? It wasn't the insulin, it's because you were a terrible daughter!)
Most of us know how to act towards patients, these classes are really only for those that either didn't grow up in this country and therefore have a cultural or language problem, or are true sociopaths. Just like Step II CS.

 

[OncoCaP]

Boy, you're a narcissistic little *****, aren't you?

Do I sense a lack of empathy here? 🙄

 

[OncoCaP]

More or less but what does that have to do with anything? And how am I whining about conforming? I am just saying, that fake empathy is not a desirable quality. In fact, I would say fakeness in general is not a good thing. I am generally nice to pretty much everyone anyway (at least in the "Real world"), not because I am afraid of them suing me, but because it just seems like a good way to treat people. Further, I am a fairly empathetic guy, but I don't like that I have to say "HEY LOOK AT ME, I AM BEING EMPATHETIC, LOOK LOOK LOOOK LOOOK!!!! HEY DO YOU SEE ME BEING EMPATHETIC????"

I used to think that being "real" was a good thing until I got verbally b*tch slapped at choice moments and it suddenly dawned on me that if being real={thoughtlessly rude or inconsiderate}, then being a fake covers up a pimple or ulcer on a personality that nobody wants to see and that no one should want to show. I'm not suggesting that one try to always please others, but being sensitive to the people around you is, at the very least, a pain avoidance strategy.

You begin to realize that exposing your "true" unempathic self is never a crowd pleaser in the way that you imagine it and there is no cosmic sense of justice that will vindicate your decision to show the "real" you. When you lack empathy, you are not advertising "I'm the real thing," nor do you connect or communicate in any better way ... the only thing that you are advertising is "I'm selfish." I'm not suggesting that you excessively patronize people, but empathy is a way of showing respect that doesn't always come naturally.

I have visions of dealing with people who make destructive life choices (e.g., IV drug abuse) and if I wasn't fake about it, I might try to change things that I cannot change.

 

[78222]

I used to think that being "real" was a good thing until I got verbally b*tch slapped at choice moments and it suddenly dawned on me that if being real={thoughtlessly rude or inconsiderate}, then being a fake covers up a pimple or ulcer on a personality that nobody wants to see and that no one should want to show. I'm not suggesting that one try to always please others, but being sensitive to the people around you is, at the very least, a pain avoidance strategy.

You begin to realize that exposing your "true" unempathic self is never a crowd pleaser in the way that you imagine it and there is no cosmic sense of justice that will vindicate your decision to show the "real" you. When you lack empathy, you are not advertising "I'm the real thing," nor do you connect or communicate in any better way ... the only thing that you are advertising is "I'm selfish." I'm not suggesting that you excessively patronize people, but empathy is a way of showing respect that doesn't always come naturally.

I have visions of dealing with people who make destructive life choice (e.g., IV drug abuse) and if I wasn't fake about it, I might try to change things that I cannot change.

I understand that being a total prick is not going to win anyone over. But I still don't get what this empathy crap is meant to prove. How could I be more empathetic than sorrying "sorry you lost your pet"? What do they want me to do, break down crying? Am I supposed to cry with every patient I have that will die? Am I supposed to get visibly emotional everytime I see a patient? I am nice to people, although I will tell them things they may not want to hear, what else can I do? Thats what pisses me off about this ****. Further, I have a hard time being empathetic to a standarized patient. I don't feel bad for you because I know nothing actually happened. Good grief, am I going to be an actor or a doctor?

 

[kirexhana]

I understand that being a total prick is not going to win anyone over. But I still don't get what this empathy crap is meant to prove. How could I be more empathetic than sorrying "sorry you lost your pet"? What do they want me to do, break down crying? Am I supposed to cry with every patient I have that will die? Am I supposed to get visibly emotional everytime I see a patient? I am nice to people, although I will tell them things they may not want to hear, what else can I do? Thats what pisses me off about this ****. Further, I have a hard time being empathetic to a standarized patient. I don't feel bad for you because I know nothing actually happened. Good grief, am I going to be an actor or a doctor?

so you seem to be more frustrated at the system of standardized patients than pretending to be empathetic. and moreover, you're upset because you don't like the idea of faking empathy to accomplish a fake assignment. also, the fact that you're graded on how well you play your part in this false interaction doesn't seem to help either.

i can understand how you feel, if that's the case. but i tell myself that it's just practice for when i talk to real patients. hopefully, this will train my "empathy" to sound more natural instead of forced. and whether or not i mean to be empathetic, it's just a means to an end, to get the patient to trust me.

 

[OncoCaP]

I understand that being a total prick is not going to win anyone over. But I still don't get what this empathy crap is meant to prove. How could I be more empathetic than sorrying "sorry you lost your pet"? What do they want me to do, break down crying? Am I supposed to cry with every patient I have that will die? Am I supposed to get visibly emotional everytime I see a patient? I am nice to people, although I will tell them things they may not want to hear, what else can I do? Thats what pisses me off about this ****. Further, I have a hard time being empathetic to a standarized patient. I don't feel bad for you because I know nothing actually happened. Good grief, am I going to be an actor or a doctor?

Showing empathy opens up communication. No, you don't need to start crying; that would be awkward. However, communication is something like 80% non-verbal. It's less about the exact words you speak and more about tone, body-language, etc. The idea is to connect with the person. Once you connect with the patient about a surface issue, they will be more likely to share their deeper & hidden concerns and their true feelings and establish a certain level of trust. They will feel comfortable with you helping them. If they don't get the impression that you really care about them, their goal will be to minimize their interaction with you and find someone who they think can actually help them (even a brother-in-law who read about how broccoli can cure cancer http://www.newstarget.com/000684.html). If they don't trust you, they will look elsewhere. My guess is that you will need to take some chances and give the patient the benefit of the doubt -- that they are worth being empathetic toward -- even if they don't seem very lovable at first sight.

 

[beefballs]

well, in all seriousness, having a patient believe that you empathize with them would really help in a complete history taking because they would be more inclined to share with you things that they would be too embarassed to, otherwise. i mean, if a male patient think that you're being a judgmental prick, he might feel uncomfortable sharing his ED with you. and they might just turn out to be a vital clue as to solving his case. so 1) empathy helps you to get patient to open up

it also helps build rapport, and that is how you get patients to comply with treatments that they might not follow too strictly if they don't trust you. therefore, 2) empathy will help you build a good relationship with your patient, and that's important because you want a patient to follow your instructions outside of the hospital, dont you?

honestly, it doesn't take all that long to add a bit of compassion to what you say to a patient, maybe you need to open yourself up to criticism instead of locking down and saying i'm right and they're wrong, empathy is for losers.

I dis agree with these premises. They are the same ones given for all my bs empathy courses as well, and every doc I have talked to-including family practice- have given me the same advice for this-dance this silly dance while you are there-it all goes out the window the day you leave. Which would be the advice I would give surebrec

 

[NonTradMed]

You know, when I worked as a cashier as a high schooler, we were told to treat our customers with respect and make them feel welcome. I see empathy training with standarized patients as med school's way of teaching students good customer relations skills. Personally, I would not want my first patient ot be a 'real' patient, and like the idea of doing a physical exam on a standarized patient. This is because I have found (through the cases with my first patient interviews) that I am rather unsure about how to talk with patients and that the more I interact with them, and the more feedback I get, the better I am at it and the more comfortable I am at it. I feel that if I had gotten negative reports back, that's a sign that I was making my patient feel uncomfortable or not showing the right bedside manners. For me, interacting with patients or customers or clients (in my old job) is not an easy thing. I am somewhat shy around strangers and it is disconcerting to ask strangers very personal questions and have them strip etc in front of you. I guess it's people like me that these standarized patients are geared for. My apologies to those that have no need for this type of training.....your less socially developed colleagues are kind of the reason why you're stuck in this class. 😛

 

[Trail Boss]

I am deeply opposed to this business model of medicine. I am not interested in being an accountant, I an not interested in customer service. Medicine is a profession, like medievil stone massonary or something else with propriatary knowledge. Somewhere along the lines people changed from thinking that it was a privelage to receive medical care to the way that people Now people think of medical as some cousmable item that you can walk into wal-mart and buy on sale. We have a duty to serve our patients. That doesn't that I will cheapen myself or my profession to be compared to serving up fast food. I hope this way of thinking blows over soon before we wal-mart the culture out of one of the last really special things in western culture, something that has offered so much to society operating on its own terms. I however feel that we will soon "team play" and "bottom line" the few goods left in medicine right into the ground.

Blue light special isle 5........physicians dignity half-off.

 

[NonTradMed]

I am deeply opposed to this business model of medicine. I am not interested in being an accountant, I an not interested in customer service. Medicine is a profession, like medievil stone massonary or something else with propriatary knowledge. Somewhere along the lines people changed from thinking that it was a privelage to receive medical care to the way that people Now people think of medical as some cousmable item that you can walk into wal-mart and buy on sale. We have a duty to serve our patients. That doesn't that I will cheapen myself or my profession to be compared to serving up fast food. I hope this way of thinking blows over soon before we wal-mart the culture out of one of the last really special things in western culture, something that has offered so much to society operating on its own terms. I however feel that we will soon "team play" and "bottom line" the few goods left in medicine right into the ground.

Blue light special isle 5........physicians dignity half-off.

Well, once you leave med school, you can start your own practice and practice however you like.....you don't have to pay lip service to 'customer service' or the idea of 'walmartization' of American health care if you don't want to. Your patients will vote with their feet.

 

[Perrin]

I see empathy training with standarized patients as med school's way of teaching students good customer relations skills. Personally, I would not want my first patient ot be a 'real' patient, and like the idea of doing a physical exam on a standarized patient. This is because I have found (through the cases with my first patient interviews) that I am rather unsure about how to talk with patients and that the more I interact with them, and the more feedback I get, the better I am at it and the more comfortable I am at it.

My first H&P was on a real pt in the ER. I agree that trying to empathize with someone who is acting is rather ridiculous. However, learning the skills for an exam on a fake patient IS useful. Yeah, I empathized with the guy b/c I had been in the same situation (possible herniated L4/L5 disk). I was also unsure how to talk to the guy. So, I told him straight out that I was a student and was going to ask him a lot of questions and test things that had nothing to do with his problem. You can have all of the standardized pts. that you want, but until you get a real one, it is always going to seem fake to you. You can't shake that feeling of "fake-ness", it affects how you feel about the situation and may show in the way you perform. They should judge your "empathy" based on REAL pt interaction and grade your skill when you are with the "actor" pts.

 

[8744]

I am deeply opposed to this business model of medicine. I am not interested in being an accountant, I an not interested in customer service. Medicine is a profession, like medievil stone massonary or something else with propriatary knowledge. Somewhere along the lines people changed from thinking that it was a privelage to receive medical care to the way that people Now people think of medical as some cousmable item that you can walk into wal-mart and buy on sale. We have a duty to serve our patients. That doesn't that I will cheapen myself or my profession to be compared to serving up fast food. I hope this way of thinking blows over soon before we wal-mart the culture out of one of the last really special things in western culture, something that has offered so much to society operating on its own terms. I however feel that we will soon "team play" and "bottom line" the few goods left in medicine right into the ground.

Blue light special isle 5........physicians dignity half-off.

I'm going to have to throw a flag on this post. Intolerable bull**** from a pre-med...fifteen yards...still third down.

Why don't you get a little experience before you insult the dignity of practicing physicians? As if you even understand the concept. Most of the physicians I know, my fellow residents, are fine people who, while recognizing that the medical profession is full of almost unbearable chicken**** which was created by your mythical doctors from the golden days, never take their frustrations out on their patients and treat everyone with the patience of saints.

Good Lord. I'm not exactly a blind follower of the cult of medicine but we do take care of our patients in a manner that far exceeds what you would expect for what we're paid.

 

[8744]

I am deeply opposed to this business model of medicine. I am not interested in being an accountant, I an not interested in customer service. Medicine is a profession, like medievil stone massonary or something else with propriatary knowledge. Somewhere along the lines people changed from thinking that it was a privelage to receive medical care to the way that people Now people think of medical as some cousmable item that you can walk into wal-mart and buy on sale. We have a duty to serve our patients. That doesn't that I will cheapen myself or my profession to be compared to serving up fast food. I hope this way of thinking blows over soon before we wal-mart the culture out of one of the last really special things in western culture, something that has offered so much to society operating on its own terms. I however feel that we will soon "team play" and "bottom line" the few goods left in medicine right into the ground.

Blue light special isle 5........physicians dignity half-off.

Is it a privilege for our patients to be seen by us or do we have a duty to see them? Seems like you want it both ways.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Dude, don't worry about it. Standardized patients don't grade on empathy, they grade on your ability to respond to their triggers. It's all so algorithmic...

I had 2 SP encounters about 4 weeks apart as a second year. One of them basically told me that my style bordered on offensive and that she had misgivings about my ability to be a good doctor. I didn't change a thing, the next lady gave me honors and said that I related to her incredibly well.

This crap that is shoveled on to you during your first years sends one message: there is only one way to be a good doctor, and that is to be a hyper-empathic partner in your patient's care. While these sorts of people might be awesome, there is room in medicine for the "large and in charge" surgeon who projects an air of absolute confidence.

 

[surrender903]

Dude, don't worry about it. Standardized patients don't grade on empathy, they grade on your ability to respond to their triggers. It's all so algorithmic...

I had 2 SP encounters about 4 weeks apart as a second year. One of them basically told me that my style bordered on offensive and that she had misgivings about my ability to be a good doctor. I didn't change a thing, the next lady gave me honors and said that I related to her incredibly well.

This crap that is shoveled on to you during your first years sends one message: there is only one way to be a good doctor, and that is to be a hyper-empathic partner in your patient's care. While these sorts of people might be awesome, there is room in medicine for the "large and in charge" surgeon who projects an air of absolute confidence.

when i first read surebrec's message i wanted to be like you are a douche, and **** off. but then i paused and by the time i got to amory blaines response i was right on target with what he believes. its good that you have your support net which is comprised of us. im glad you have somewhere to vent.

SP's are so by the book its disgusting. grin and bear it in real life and come here to deal with flames and support.

 

[Gut Shot]

How could I be more empathetic than sorrying "sorry you lost your pet"?

Perhaps it was your deadpan delivery.

Good grief, am I going to be an actor or a doctor?

No matter what environment you operate in you are going to have to shelve your true emotions in various situations. Think the cashier at Taco Bell really wants to smile as he digs out your extra packets of Fire Sauce? No, he's fantasizing about slashing your jugulars, or perhaps backing over your head and watching it explode like a rotten pumpkin. It's the same story all the way up to the highest rungs of the corporate world.

Call it your game face, and like it or not it's a valuable addition to your skillset. For instance, your demeanor probably changes to accomplish your ends when, say, you're attempting to seduce a young lady at a keg party. Think of empathy training as laying the foundation for years of successfully manipulating patients for your own diabolical gain. That might make it more palatable.

 

[78222]

I don't see what is so offensive about my post. Am I not allowed to complain about the more ridiculous aspects of medical education? Like i've said before, if you don't have empathy now, some class - or standardized patient wont give it to you.

What annoys me about the standardized patient, is that her subjective opinion is used to grade me and I have no recourse. I mean, its not that huge a deal, the grade isn't even very important - still I found it insulting that I was graded "poor" in the apathy department for not pausing to take a moment of silence for her pet.

 

[UDbiochem]

Something to get into the habit of is just listening and saying "i'm sorry to hear that." Somedays I'm not in the best of moods and don't feel empathetic either but especially for the fake patients (which are very hard for me to be empathetic towards oftentimes), you just have to play the game.

The whole standardized patient thing reminds me so much of the movie Monsters Inc. You enter this room where you're supposed to be the doctor and you have to relate to someone who isn't real. Saying "I"m sorry to hear that" or "congratulations" when someone quits smoking or something... sometimes it will be genuine and sometimes it will be your "game face" as someone else already mentioned.

 

[deleted77919]

still I found it insulting that I was graded "poor" in the apathy department for not pausing to take a moment of silence for her pet.

Apathy: lack of interest in or concern for things that others find moving or exciting.

It seems like if she didn't like you, you would have gotten an A+++ for "apathy." Empathy on the other hand . . .

I can see the eval now, "student did a great job of showing complete apathy when it was deserved. He's right, it's ridiculous that I'm upset over my dead cat."

Sorry not trying to be mean . . . just couldn't resist.

Edit: in retrospect it is entirely possible there is an apthy catgory on your eval sheets. Saying a student did poor in apathy bothers me tho. A high score should indicate lots of a characteristic, i.e. lots of apathy. If it's the opposite then it's a double negative of sorts.

 

[Orthodoc40]

I understand that being a total prick is not going to win anyone over. But I still don't get what this empathy crap is meant to prove. How could I be more empathetic than sorrying "sorry you lost your pet"? What do they want me to do, break down crying? Am I supposed to cry with every patient I have that will die? Am I supposed to get visibly emotional everytime I see a patient? I am nice to people, although I will tell them things they may not want to hear, what else can I do? Thats what pisses me off about this ****. Further, I have a hard time being empathetic to a standarized patient. I don't feel bad for you because I know nothing actually happened. Good grief, am I going to be an actor or a doctor?

1) Ever heard of something called "customer service"? No one wants a robot for a doctor.

2) You'll enjoy your life (that's right YOUR LIFE - oh, now that matters to you doesn't it?) a lot more if you stop resenting patients. Instead of filling your day with 15 minute slots of "resent next patient" - which is not only making them unhappy but making YOU unhappy (huh? ME? that matters - we're talking about ME now!) you could try to chose a new attitude.

 

[Timmythemic22]

Do I sense a lack of empathy here? 🙄

No, if anything, I'd say it's brutal honesty.

 

[indo]

well, empathy could get you laid. Other than that, I dunno. If you're talking to a stripper and she begins telling you about her crappy ass childhood, being empathetic could get her into your bed. Well, you into her bed cuz you don't want a stripper on your clean sheets.

 

[Chronic Student]

Think of it as an exercise in pain avoidance.

I mean, look at how much crap you've gotten for your post, is it really worth it.

In life, everybody has to take their ration of sh** and you obviously don't seem to be capable of real empathy, just faking it a little will get you a long way and it doesn't really hurt that much does it. You just smile, put a hand on their shoulder and offer a hankie every once in awhile.

Keep in mind that there are a lot of healthcare people out there that are frosted dog turds, you know all sweet on the outside and full of crap on the inside. You'll fit right in.

By the way, you say that you don't like old people, well then you'll love medicine!

It makes me wonder why you pursued medical school in the first place?

Honestly though if you just jump through the hoops that they throw in front of you if it will get you where you want to go in the end.

-Mike

 

[michelle32]

A recent study by the Royal college of surgeons has shown that doctors (in the uk at least) are the most trusted profession. This means you have the facility to be economical with your empathy. Check out the ten greatest lies told to patients at www.themess.co.uk/da/47798

 

[deleted77919]

I heard a guy speak who applied to med school and was accepted, then sat and tought "I don't like old people, I don't like young people, and I don't like sick people" he decided to forgo medical school and instead worked as a science advisor to a senator.

A little more on topic, I hate bs empathy assignments (see my recent thread) as much as the next medical student, but I do think that it's important to at the least make sure a patient is comfortable enough that you can get a complete history, i.e. they can talk about uncomfortable subjects. Makes diagnosis easier if you actually get the whole story. And as a further benefit, you're less likely to be sued (we actually discussed that openly in our little empathy session this morning, interesting).

 

[78222]

Apathy: lack of interest in or concern for things that others find moving or exciting.

It seems like if she didn't like you, you would have gotten an A+++ for "apathy." Empathy on the other hand . . .

I can see the eval now, "student did a great job of showing complete apathy when it was deserved. He's right, it's ridiculous that I'm upset over my dead cat."

Sorry not trying to be mean . . . just couldn't resist.

Edit: in retrospect it is entirely possible there is an apthy catgory on your eval sheets. Saying a student did poor in apathy bothers me tho. A high score should indicate lots of a characteristic, i.e. lots of apathy. If it's the opposite then it's a double negative of sorts.

lol, I make the apathy/empathy typo a lot. Maybe it's Freudian.

 

[78222]

1) Ever heard of something called "customer service"? No one wants a robot for a doctor.

2) You'll enjoy your life (that's right YOUR LIFE - oh, now that matters to you doesn't it?) a lot more if you stop resenting patients. Instead of filling your day with 15 minute slots of "resent next patient" - which is not only making them unhappy but making YOU unhappy (huh? ME? that matters - we're talking about ME now!) you could try to chose a new attitude.

I am pretty far from a robot. As for customer service, well I am friendly, but i'll be damned if I start wearing "flair" to the clinic and greeting everyone like a Applebees employee. "Hi MRS JOHNSON, THANKS FOR CHOOSING OUR MEDICAL CENTER, MY NAME IS SUREBREC AND I'LL BE YOUR DOCTOR, JUST LET ME KNOW WHAT I CAN DO TO MAKE YOUR STAY FANTABULOUS!"

2) For the millionth time, I enjoy life, I AM nice to people.

 

[NonTradMed]

Once you get that MD, it doesn't excuse you from showing good customer relations skills. Patients don't expect their doctors to come in, tell them what to do, and rush them out (although it happens). Good patient-doctor relationships is not cultivated on that. A guy at McDonalds is expected to smile and thank you for coming, and all he does is take your money and hand you your food. A doctor is expected to take your medical history, ask about your sex partners and look at your embarassing rash, why would a doc act in any less of a professional than the guy at McDonald's handing you food? Medicine IS a business in the sense that we all have to treat our patients professionally and that means making small talk, and showing concern for theirs. Even a simple, "I'm sorry" and being sincere about it (even when you're not) is something people from the McDonald's clerk to the CEO have to learn to do. People skills are very important.

 

[78222]

Think of it as an exercise in pain avoidance.

I mean, look at how much crap you've gotten for your post, is it really worth it.In life, everybody has to take their ration of sh** and you obviously don't seem to be capable of real empathy, just faking it a little will get you a long way and it doesn't really hurt that much does it. You just smile, put a hand on their shoulder and offer a hankie every once in awhile.

Keep in mind that there are a lot of healthcare people out there that are frosted dog turds, you know all sweet on the outside and full of crap on the inside. You'll fit right in.

By the way, you say that you don't like old people, well then you'll love medicine!

It makes me wonder why you pursued medical school in the first place?

Honestly though if you just jump through the hoops that they throw in front of you if it will get you where you want to go in the end.

-Mike

I am actually surprised by the responses i've gotten. Of course, I had almost forgotten how douchey most medstudents are. Thanks for reminding me you ass-kissing, douchebags👍

 

[Chronic Student]

I am a doucebag, although not a medstudent.

In all seriousness though I have empathy for the 32 year-old lady with a plum-sized GBM in her head, three young kids at home and a husband who is sub-80 IQ who is going to be lost when she kicks it in three months. It's easy to be empathetic for her.

However, the DSB jerk-off who gets his scrips from the ER and three different docs in town, always pays cash for his scrips and has a brother who "steals" his meds and just got attacked by a dog for the third time and wrenched his back is a much tougher sell.

However, I have a little part of my little brain where I keep my box of fake empathy and I open it up just for him. I can then make myself say with all seriousness that we are concerned about toxic levels or lortab in his sytem and that I can't contribute to his possible liver failure and that I'm very sorry, but your back won't matter if your liver is destroyed and that I'm just looking out for his welfare.

Did you see how easy that was. I mean it was like butta.

A good doctor has to wear many different hats and be able to change them instantaneously and often. Just think of the SP as one more chance to hone your skills.

Also, as was mentioned before patients do vote with their feet. We treat our patients very well and as a result we get more referrals than we can handle. We have a semi-retired neurosurgeon who sees all of the new patients and only sends us the ones that actually need operations. Some weeks its so busy you want to scream, but it sure as hell beats having tumbleweeds in your waiting room.

-Mike

 

[cwb]

It sounds like you handled the situation perfectly... We were told by a few very well respected doctors in our standardized interviews to take the SP's advice with "a grain of salt" as they often times have no clue as to what they're talking about and at times can go a little overboard. Not saying they are all bad but I have certainly noted some who are just looking for an opportunity to vent their insecurities on medical students who need them for a good grade.

As far as the situation - the average physician has like what 15 minutes with a patient in a hospital setting (maybe less?). You cannot and do not have time to give therapy to every patient you come across and should not be expected to. This does not show mean you cannot show empathy but I really do not know how you could have handled the situation any differently if it went according to how you said. I don't think very many people who have posted here have a very good grasp on how hospital's work if they truly expected more than expressing sorrow and then moving on with the interview. If you followed their recommendations you would probably see about 5 px a day and burnout within a few years - there is something to be said about not getting emotionally attached/involved with your px.

 

[OncoCaP]

It sounds like you handled the situation perfectly... We were told by a few very well respected doctors in our standardized interviews to take the SP's advice with "a grain of salt" as they often times have no clue as to what they're talking about and at times can go a little overboard. Not saying they are all bad but I have certainly noted some who are just looking for an opportunity to vent their insecurities on medical students who need them for a good grade.

As far as the situation - the average physician has like what 15 minutes with a patient in a hospital setting (maybe less?). You cannot and do not have time to give therapy to every patient you come across and should not be expected to. This does not show mean you cannot show empathy but I really do not know how you could have handled the situation any differently if it went according to how you said. I don't think very many people who have posted here have a very good grasp on how hospital's work if they truly expected more than expressing sorrow and then moving on with the interview. If you followed their recommendations you would probably see about 5 px a day and burnout within a few years - there is something to be said about not getting emotionally attached/involved with your px.

Err. If you're in a hurry it takes maybe 1 minute to say a few nice things ... maybe a 15 second pause for reflection. If that 1.25 minute makes the other 10 minutes open communication while you do the physical exam, doesn't a nice intro it seem like a worthwhile investment? I literally had a doc give me a physical in 5 minutes. He was talking and connecting with me the whole time. He probably learned more about me in 5 minutes because he knew how to communicate with emphathy than most of my friends know about me from hours of casual conversation. Am I missing something here?

 

[deleted77919]

I am pretty far from a robot. As for customer service, well I am friendly, but i'll be damned if I start wearing "flair" to the clinic and greeting everyone like a Applebees employee. "Hi MRS JOHNSON, THANKS FOR CHOOSING OUR MEDICAL CENTER, MY NAME IS SUREBREC AND I'LL BE YOUR DOCTOR, JUST LET ME KNOW WHAT I CAN DO TO MAKE YOUR STAY FANTABULOUS!"

2) For the millionth time, I enjoy life, I AM nice to people.

I wear flair on my white coat. 98 pieces minimum. And at least 1/2 have to be battery powered and either light up or play a song. Constantly. I keep hoping if I pretend I'm at Applebee's I'll get a discount on the hospital food. Yum.

 

[Chronic Student]

It sounds like you handled the situation perfectly... We were told by a few very well respected doctors in our standardized interviews to take the SP's advice with "a grain of salt" as they often times have no clue as to what they're talking about and at times can go a little overboard. Not saying they are all bad but I have certainly noted some who are just looking for an opportunity to vent their insecurities on medical students who need them for a good grade.

As far as the situation - the average physician has like what 15 minutes with a patient in a hospital setting (maybe less?). You cannot and do not have time to give therapy to every patient you come across and should not be expected to. This does not show mean you cannot show empathy but I really do not know how you could have handled the situation any differently if it went according to how you said. I don't think very many people who have posted here have a very good grasp on how hospital's work if they truly expected more than expressing sorrow and then moving on with the interview. If you followed their recommendations you would probably see about 5 px a day and burnout within a few years - there is something to be said about not getting emotionally attached/involved with your px.

Dude, we're talking about empathy, not sympathy. Go look it up.

It really does not take all that much extra time to be empathetic. In fact, it can be a real timesaver if the patient spills their guts because they feel comfortable with you, you just have to know how to handle people and not get bogged down.

As far as your comment about previous posters not knowing much about hospitals, you show a profound lack of understanding about medicine. On a typical clinic day I will see 20-30 patients in a 6 hour period, that works out to 3.3 to 5 patients an hour and this includes reviewing CT's/MRI's, phone calls, scrip refills and dictation. Now granted, these are surgical patients however, new patients can take an enormous amount of time and I can remember very few times when there was any hugging, sobbing or therapy going on.

Over the past ten years I have come into contact with thousands of doctors/surgeons and I can tell you that the most effective, respected and sought after ones really knew how to connect with people.

-Mike

 

[OncoCaP]

I wear flair on my white coat. 98 pieces minimum. And at least 1/2 have to be battery powered and either light up or play a song. Constantly. I keep hoping if I pretend I'm at Applebee's I'll get a discount on the hospital food. Yum.

I don't get it ... you do a digital exam on a 70 year old male weighing in at 450 pounds and your arms are too short so you really need to strain to get in there or calling codes on a 5 year-old-drowning victim and that's supposed to be fun. Wearing a flashing LED on your lab coat to enterain the sick peds or asking a few questions about a dead cat -- that's oppressive. I'm lost in this logic. 😕

As far as the standardized patients go, when we learn how to do anything, whether riding a bike, driving a car, integrating sin(theta)/theta*d(theta), or whatever, we more or less follow a formula that illustrates an approach that usually works and that we are told to follow. We don't start out driving a car talking on a cell phone going down a freeway. We start out in a parking lot. Yes, it can be a little boring but at worst we'll knock over a trash can; it's a reflection of our stage of knowledge. As we learn more, we can do things more quickly, simultaneously, and with our own style. It sounds like practicing on standardized patients is no different.

Personally, I'm getting myself into this field because I have a job I think I can do well here, there is a need, and that it is for a good cause. I'm going into this with the idea that whether I need to shovel feces out of a punctured abdomen or console a sobbing pregnant teenager, it's what I'm there for and if I didn't want to do the things that the job requires, I would find something else that I did like. Obviously there will be some parts of the job that will appeal to me more than others.

I'm not going to pretend that I know so much more than my med school professors that I need to critique everything they do as to whether or not they are teaching the material correctly. I'll learn as much as I can and move on to the next phase of my education and career. Sure, I have my preferences but at the end of the day, I give my professors the benefit of the doubt. I know I don't do everything perfectly either.