Why should I pretend to be empathetic if I'm not?

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There has been a shakeup at our clinical course... the director got tossed overboard. From what I understand, it had something to do with the highly negative student evaluations of the course. Some well-connected students even had a whispering campaign going against her.

Mainly, all they did in that class was preach endlessly about "empathy" and "active listening" and "motivational listening" and all that rot. So far we've only had one lonely, solitary lecture that actually discussed something useful -- standard blood draws such as CBC, Chem7, Chem12, etc and what they are for. It was the only lecture worth remembering, and it was a very late add to the coursework. Some meddling M.D. actually thought that basic bloodwork might be more relevant to clinicals than "thoughtfully appreciating" the "spirituality" of a "diverse patient base." Imagine that!

Let's hope the new person turns things around. One thing that I envy the local D.O. school is how its clinical skills class actually teaches, well, clinical skills.
 
Oo that is very encouraging, we have a similar class here. I'm only interested to the extent that it will be on Step 1--behavioral sciences/psych and stuff. Interesting, I thought DO was supposed to be "holistic" or something
 
D.O. schools are a lot more focused on primary care, and less focused on things like biochemistry. That's part of why they get a real clinical skills class, I think. They actually learn how to start an I.V. before third year. :O

I can only hope we go that way. Learning about foleys and proper OR protocol would have been a lot more helpful than hearing about how we need to embrace the diversity of our patients.
 
we need to embrace the diversity of our patients.

Wait a minute! We need to embrace the diversity of our patients? Why the F*ck didn't anyone tell me that during my 4 years? Next thing you know they'll want us to find out how out patients are "feeling". Why wasn't there 4 years of mind-numbing small group sessions with kiss ass students running thier mouths about how they feel the pain of thier patients?
 
D.O. schools are a lot more focused on primary care, and less focused on things like biochemistry. That's part of why they get a real clinical skills class, I think. They actually learn how to start an I.V. before third year. :O

I can only hope we go that way. Learning about foleys and proper OR protocol would have been a lot more helpful than hearing about how we need to embrace the diversity of our patients.

We did IV's the 1st week after class was over!

Actually I love the clinical opportunities we have, the trick here is we have to be proactive.
 
I have a follow-up question: why should I pretend to be apathetic when I'm not?
 
Anyone still reading this thread might find this interesting:

Teaching Hospitals How to Listen
One Woman Struggled to Convince Administrators That Staff Responsiveness -- or Lack of It -- Affects Patient Outcome
By Susan Okie

My friend Sylvia Stultz, who died of cancer in June, was a clinical psychologist whose passion was teaching social skills to autistic children. Until she became sick with a rare sarcoma, about two years ago, Sylvia ran therapeutic groups for such kids, helping them learn how to make friends, notice interpersonal cues and carry on ordinary conversations.

Sylvia had enviable social skills: Although she lived alone, she maintained close connections with a large network of friends and relatives who supported her throughout her illness. Her directness and sense of humor endeared her to her doctors, nurses and other caregivers, calling forth their best efforts on her behalf.

However, as a cancer patient undergoing treatment at several respected institutions in Washington and Boston, Sylvia noticed intriguing parallels between her experiences in certain clinical settings and her work with autistic children. She encountered striking differences in the cultures of the places where she received her care: While some hospitals and clinics seemed to encourage responsiveness and empathy among their staff members, others appeared to foster an atmosphere in which patients often felt ignored and employees often seemed reluctant even to make eye contact. Since Sylvia felt powerless to affect the course of her own illness, she focused her energies, for as long as she could, on a target that played to her strengths: She tried to teach social skills to hospitals.

In January 2005, I accompanied Sylvia to a surgical oncology clinic at the National Institutes of Health's Clinical Center, the famous hospital in Bethesda where researchers study patients with rare disorders and test experimental treatments. Sylvia had a large metastatic tumor in her liver and had been referred to an interventional radiologist to undergo a radiofrequency thermal ablation procedure, in which a needle is guided into the tumor and is used to deliver radiofrequency current that kills the cancerous tissue. As instructed, she reported to the clinic at 10:15 a.m. A nurse took her vital signs, and we settled down to wait -- and wait. As the morning wore on, other patients straggled in until the waiting room was full. Staff members could offer no estimate of when she would be seen and seemed surprised that we asked. We munched on crackers and watched the clock. At 3:30, Sylvia finally met the specialist and his medical team.

Sylvia felt privileged to be treated at NIH, but that didn't stop her from speaking out -- in her characteristically polite but direct style. When the radiologist finished describing his treatment plan and asked whether she had questions, she shot back, "Yes. Why do you keep your patients waiting for five hours?"

The doctor was contrite but said that he had no control over scheduling. So, a few days later, Sylvia sent an e-mail message to the Clinical Center's director, John I. Gallin, describing her visit.

"As a psychologist and health-care provider myself," she wrote, "I wonder if there may be ways in which my experiences could alert you to the possibility that sometimes 'the system' underestimates the tremendous sense of vulnerability of your patients. We are sick, grateful and afraid. Waiting for hours is not just inconvenient; it is frightening and disempowering -- downright unhealthy. . . . If we and the other patients knew that the system was set up respectfully and if we had been given information, options or apologies, the situation would have felt entirely different."

Gallin reacted admirably. He called a meeting of department heads to review the management of the center's specialty clinics. He promptly apologized to Sylvia, writing, "I believe that the wait times you described should be tolerated under no circumstances."

On her ensuing visits to the NIH clinic, Sylvia found that the wait time had shortened dramatically. She felt so empowered by this response that she was convinced it improved her ability to fight her cancer. "It has been especially difficult for me to develop healing images about the liver," she wrote in a e-mail. "The tumor is growing so fast and seems so impervious. Then I thought of . . . sending precise, fierce probes into a troublesome NIH. This made it so much easier to think of the tumor as shakeable."

Gallin said in an interview several weeks ago that as a result of Sylvia's intervention, he has made reducing patient wait time a priority. "She taught us a lot," he said. "She really galvanized the issue for us. . . . It wasn't really obvious to me how much of a problem it was until she sort of hit me between the eyes with a two-by-four."

Gallin abolished "block scheduling" -- the system of having the day's patients all report to a clinic at the same time -- and replaced it with individual appointments. He said patients are now asked to keep a log of how long they wait to see a doctor or to have a test or procedure, and to turn in this information to their clinic's head nurse. Department and section heads are now required to take steps to reduce wait time and must report annually on their progress.

Beyond Their Expertise

Sylvia's liver treatment was successful. However, during the next few months, the sarcoma spread like a western wildfire, flaring up in one organ after another. To cope with a pelvic recurrence, Sylvia traveled in May 2005 to Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston to have a procedure called brachytherapy, in which radioactive needles are implanted into a tumor. She would have to lie immobilized in a lead-lined hospital room for three days. Because she would be radioactive, nurses and visitors would be able to spend only a few minutes at a time in her presence: She would be almost entirely alone. Although she joked in an e-mail, "I'll be like Kryptonite, with the power to disable Superman," Sylvia was terrified.

During her stay at the hospital, several unrelated events combined to magnify the anxiety and pain that she endured. Her iPod, which she had counted on for distraction, was lost or stolen during the transfer from admissions to her room. An anesthesiologist belatedly changed the planned method of pain control after she was already on the operating table. Later that night, she awoke with intense pain and called for a nurse, only to wait two hours for a response because, as the nurse later explained, she was "busy with an emergency."

"I wondered why I was not an emergency at this point, and sobbed as I watched the clock," she later recalled.

She was discharged with painful bedsores caused by immobility and was sent home without knowing how to take care of them.

Sylvia later said she found this the most traumatic of her many hospital admissions. For weeks, persistent hip pain and muscle weakness were exacerbated by what she called a "fog" of anxiety.

On a return visit to Boston in September, she tried to discuss her lingering concerns with her radiation oncologist but felt the doctor seemed uncomfortable. "She dropped some defenses at the end," Sylvia wrote. "She was affected when I 'put it into words.' She said there is a 'culture' at the hospital, 'I don't know where it comes from.' "

Although weakened by her advancing cancer, Sylvia tried to address that culture. "I am concerned that the 'system' was unresponsive to my emotional needs and my doctor was put in the position of not being able to protect me," she wrote to Michael Gustafson, vice president of the Center for Clinical Excellence at Brigham and Women's/Faulkner Hospitals. "Somehow, a grasp of me as a person and a collaborator was missing too often."

The hospital's official response was guarded; Gustafson referred her report to an ombudsman, or patient advocate, who investigated her complaints and sent her a written report several months later. Although Sylvia might have preferred a frank, face-to-face discussion, by then she was too frail to travel to Boston. She said she was glad, nevertheless, to learn that her letter had prompted some changes.

Kevin Myron, a spokesman for Brigham and Women's Hospital, said Sylvia's experience was regrettable. "It's someone's personal experience," he said. "We can't change that. But hopefully, it means that things will improve in the future."

Setting a Standard

Sylvia's gold standard for how hospitals should function was an experience she had soon after her sarcoma was diagnosed -- an inpatient admission for radiation therapy at Sibley Memorial Hospital, near her home in the District. Looking back on that hospital stay, she acknowledged that she was healthier and less psychologically vulnerable at that time than during the later stages of her illness. Nevertheless, she insisted that the head nurse for that unit -- a woman whom she called "the nurse with the white hat" -- had established a system that made patients feel confident that their needs would be met.

The most important rule was that if a patient rang a call button, the staff member nearest to the patient's room -- whether a nurse, a technician or a janitor -- would respond immediately. The patient's request would then be relayed to the appropriate person. During her stay on this unit, Sylvia said, she always knew that she would be heard. She was sure that feeling calm and safe improved her body's response to the cancer treatment.

Sylvia had many stays on other units at Sibley, and things did not always go so smoothly. When problems arose, she discussed them promptly with her caregivers -- sometimes with surprising results. A friend who visited her regularly in the hospital recalls a time when Sylvia was in severe pain and a nurse asked her repeatedly to quantify her discomfort on a scale of 1 to 10. She finally answered, "Eleven." The nurse snapped, "The scale only goes to 10. I am a nurse. Answer the question."

The following day, when the same nurse entered the room, Sylvia took her hand, looked her in the eye and said, "Yesterday you were rude to me. I was in a lot of pain and only wanted to convey that to you."

The nurse grasped Sylvia's other hand, sat down on her bed, and said, "It doesn't have anything to do with you. I'm sorry. It's just the way I am. I have cancer and have to take a lot of pain meds."

Even in the final months of her life, Sylvia's old spark would return whenever she talked about the need for health-care workers to show, by eye contact and body language, that they are listening and responding -- transmitting the same social cues that she had always tried to teach to the children who were her patients.

Getting that response, she said, "lets me know that I'm a human being."
 
Ok I'll bite. Snarky comments follow... I don't mean to lessen what this woman was going through with terminal metastatic cancer, but the whole tone of the article is exactly what everyone is complaining about in this thread.

The article is mostly about how bad and unfeeling administrators can be. I'll doubt you'll find any argument here that most hospital administrators are basically evil personified.

Anyway, I loved the lede where she talked about translating her group therapy for autistic children into reforming medicine The implication, of course, is that we should carry the same approach to medical education: run group sessions where students talk about their feelings and the mediator urges us to become more empathetic. Oh yes, this sort of thing has worked out real well at my med school!

But I'm sure the people actually running the small groups feel better about themselves afterward, and hey, that's the whole point to these classes.

And never mind the whole bit about treating med students as special-needs students. (wait, maybe she does have a point there)

More troublesome is the author's discussion of varying experiences at varying hospitals. Solution: More standardization! Yes, because this country needs MORE Walmartization, not less! (gag)

But, I think all the problems she faced boiled down to people just plain not caring. Not caring about their jobs, not caring about the mission of the hospital, not caring about the patients. But there is no amount of standardization, no level of government oversight, no kind of group therapy that can ever correct that basic failing in some people. Social programs for children always and inevitably fail when the parents and guardians just stop caring... it's no different here. You just can't force people to care.

That's why these empathy classes at med school are so useless. If the students already care for their patients... it's just preaching to the choir. And if they don't, well then those students will just mouth whatever lies will please the ears of the instructor and then move on unaffected.
 
... You just can't force people to care.

That's why these empathy classes at med school are so useless. If the students already care for their patients... it's just preaching to the choir. And if they don't, well then those students will just mouth whatever lies will please the ears of the instructor and then move on unaffected.

True, you can't force people to care. However, you can fire them if they don't act like it (patients can fire doctors by switching doctors). We live in a day and age where everyone from police officers, marines snipers, to medical doctors are expected to be sensitive to the people they work with. In the 1940s, if a marine in a drunken rage picked off a few civilians in a war zone it was "too bad." If a police officer pistol-whipped a suspected burglar, it was what the criminal deserved. Now the marine or police officer would be disciplined. In other words, expectations have changed. Same thing for the medical profession ... expectations of doctors have changed.

In the medical profession the reasons that the hospital staff is expected to act empathetic toward the patients have already been well explained above -- it makes a difference in the experience that they have (suffer less) and in some cases, it can improve actual outcomes. Whether you really care or not is hard to tell given sufficient practice and the short amount of time that doctors spend with patients. You can only be fired for the way you act, not the way you feel. It would be ideal if we all were empathetic, but that's not the case. Hence, the training to educate the new batch of recruits (medical students, etc.) on how to act.
 
True, you can't force people to care. However, you can fire them if they don't act like it (patients can fire doctors by switching doctors). We live in a day and age where everyone from police officers, marines snipers, to medical doctors are expected to be sensitive to the people they work with. In the 1940s, if a marine in a drunken rage picked off a few civilians in a war zone it was "too bad." If a police officer pistol-whipped a suspected burglar, it was what the criminal deserved. Now the marine or police officer would be disciplined. In other words, expectations have changed. Same thing for the medical profession ... expectations of doctors have changed.

In the medical profession the reasons that the hospital staff is expected to act empathetic toward the patients have already been well explained above -- it makes a difference in the experience that they have (suffer less) and in some cases, it can improve actual outcomes. Whether you really care or not is hard to tell given sufficient practice and the short amount of time that doctors spend with patients. You can only be fired for the way you act, not the way you feel. It would be ideal if we all were empathetic, but that's not the case. Hence, the training to educate the new batch of recruits (medical students, etc.) on how to act.

This has never been true. Many Marines and Soldiers in World War II recieved courts-martials for war crimes and some were even executed.

But I agree with most of your post. I repeat, it's just that I don't think empathy can be taught and if it can, certainly not in the way they did it at my medical school.
 
And just so you know, I don't give a f**k.


it's been at least five hours since I first read this, and I laughed so damn hard the second time I damn near wet my pants. Maybe I have been studying too long.
 
This has never been true. Many Marines and Soldiers in World War II recieved courts-martials for war crimes and some were even executed.

But I agree with most of your post. I repeat, it's just that I don't think empathy can be taught and if it can, certainly not in the way they did it at my medical school.

I think you're right about the Marines; my mistake.

Also, you're right that empathy can't be taught. Acting empathetic can be taught, but probably not the way that these schools do it, as you say.
 
I think you're right about the Marines; my mistake.

Also, you're right that empathy can't be taught. Acting empathetic can be taught, but probably not the way that these schools do it, as you say.

How about some damn empathy from the patients?
The IR guy was late? Boo-Hoo, maybe (as the patient tells us later in the bitchfest was the case in her pain situation) there was a REAL crisis situation he needed to attend too. Sorry if she had a lot of dying to do that day and sitting in the office was conflicting with that but other people are dying too. I think this lady was pissed about checking out and needing to feel like she had some meaning left so she was firing shots into the dark and claiming to hit something. She sent letters and her wait time "shortened dramatically" from 5 hours...no ****? You didn't have to wait 5 hours the next time for a scheduled appointment? My guess is the first wait was unussual and the second was 3 hours (probably standard) but she needed to feeld that her letter was the difference. Chances are the rest of her "insights" are equally bull ****. Bottom line is people pay to get better, and they dont pay well. You want fast service, a smile and someone to rub your back...pay more, its out there. Till you're willing to do that STFU. There's 3 years of "empathy" small group for ya.
 
How about some damn empathy from the patients?
The IR guy was late? Boo-Hoo, maybe (as the patient tells us later in the bitchfest was the case in her pain situation) there was a REAL crisis situation he needed to attend too. Sorry if she had a lot of dying to do that day and sitting in the office was conflicting with that but other people are dying too. I think this lady was pissed about checking out and needing to feel like she had some meaning left so she was firing shots into the dark and claiming to hit something. She sent letters and her wait time "shortened dramatically" from 5 hours...no ****? You didn't have to wait 5 hours the next time for a scheduled appointment? My guess is the first wait was unussual and the second was 3 hours (probably standard) but she needed to feeld that her letter was the difference. Chances are the rest of her "insights" are equally bull ****. Bottom line is people pay to get better, and they dont pay well. You want fast service, a smile and someone to rub your back...pay more, its out there. Till you're willing to do that STFU. There's 3 years of "empathy" small group for ya.



I like to call it the Walmart Mentality; IT'S ALL ABOUT MEEEE! Next time you are standing in line, listen to how they treat the workers. They don't care there are 4000 other people in line behind them, they want their needs answered and they want it now!
 
"On her ensuing visits to the NIH clinic, Sylvia found that the wait time had shortened dramatically. She felt so empowered by this response that she was convinced it improved her ability to fight her cancer. "It has been especially difficult for me to develop healing images about the liver," she wrote in a e-mail. "The tumor is growing so fast and seems so impervious. Then I thought of . . . sending precise, fierce probes into a troublesome NIH. This made it so much easier to think of the tumor as shakeable."

Uh, I think we're carrying this "power of positive thinking" thing a little too far. I have no doubt that a good attitude is better than a a bad one when it comes to recovery but I bet we're only talking about a small increment of improvement.

In other words, how she felt about her cancer had essentially nothing to do with its malignancy or aggressiveness. It was going to kill her or not whether the staff of the NIH sang Kumbayah to here or whether they bitch-slapped her.

She sounds like she was very self-centered.
 
And God forbid that the nurse had an emergency when the nice lady was in pain. I mean, what are the odds of an _emergency_ in a hospital??

What was the quote in Princess Bride?

"Life IS pain, milady. Anyone who tells you different is trying to sell you something."
 
It has never been placed online.

And THAT is the reason that little trash-can lookin' robot kicked yer @$$ in the movie.



j/k Havarti, I dig the pic of Max you have for an Avatar.
 
And THAT is the reason that little trash-can lookin' robot kicked yer @$$ in the movie.



j/k Havarti, I dig the pic of Max you have for an Avatar.


Nerd alert.😀
 
And God forbid that the nurse had an emergency when the nice lady was in pain. I mean, what are the odds of an _emergency_ in a hospital??

Short of a building fire or earthquake, two hours for pain control on post-op day zero is absolutely unacceptable. If it was your own mother you might not be so forgiving of the staff.

Unless, of course, you hate the old bitch.
 
Nerd alert.😀

Please. If we set off nerd alerts every time someone on SDN made a reference to bad sci fi movies (eg Black Hole) or other nerdy things, we would be on high alert 24/7. Besides, on a thread about empathy, you should be more sensitive to his or her nerd tendencies. 😀 😀
 
I kid. We all got a little nerd in us, for example my avatar is Scrat. You don't make it to the "Allopathic student FORUM" section without a pretty wide nerd streak, so I think he will get over the insult.
 
And just so you know, I don't give a f**k.

I enjoyed that article. Thanks for posting it.


I think it helps to refresh ourselves to humanity every once in awhile. It keeps us more human (and hopefully more in touch with ourselves and our patients).
 
Ah.....the three things I despise and laugh at the most.....all in one thread: the trials of dealing with people who never learned the difference between empathy and sympathy; people who think positive thinking can help cure what ails them, and people who can think you can successfully mainstream autistic kids....... :meanie: It's like giving a heroin addict the keys to the props trailer for the French Connection.
 
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