Well this is awkward............... haha
You weren't entertained?
Well this is awkward............... haha
You weren't entertained?
All things considered equal, residency directors would likely take an Ivy graduate over a non-Ivy graduate. Why would they not? I know the common theme among SDN is that which school you go to doesn't matter, but for residency application purposes, I don't see how it can't. Residency directors all over the country will know and acknowledge the name, period. It makes their programs look good, keeps their prestige high. Take a look at the most competitive specialty in medicine (arguably PRS), and year after year, objectively speaking, residency programs glut over Ivy/Stanford/JHU/etc graduates. My friend was recently on an interview trail for orthopedic surgery (albeit not as competitive as PRS), and she was almost disgusted by how many Ivy grads she met on the way. Why wouldn't the same apply to the most competitive dental specialties (ortho, OMFS, etc)?
You could make the argument that Penn attracts students likely to pursue competitive specialties in the first place, but I could make a counter-argument saying that that environment is worth its weight in $$$; if it edges you out over other applicants, then so be it.
That said, I had to turn down Penn for Columbia, and this was purely a financial decision because I will have free housing with my brother in NYC (also a Columbia student). It was extremely painful to withdraw and I literally hesitated like 10 times before sending the email lol
Different priorities for different people. If you're just shooting for general dentistry, GPR, or AEGD, school name probably won't matter. But for competitive specialties, history doesn't lie - Penn will give you an advantage.
All things considered equal, residency directors would likely take an Ivy graduate over a non-Ivy graduate. Why would they not? I know the common theme among SDN is that which school you go to doesn't matter, but for residency application purposes, I don't see how it can't. Residency directors all over the country will know and acknowledge the name, period. It makes their programs look good, keeps their prestige high. Take a look at the most competitive specialty in medicine (arguably PRS), and year after year, objectively speaking, residency programs glut over Ivy/Stanford/JHU/etc graduates. My friend was recently on an interview trail for orthopedic surgery (albeit not as competitive as PRS), and she was almost disgusted by how many Ivy grads she met on the way. Why wouldn't the same apply to the most competitive dental specialties (ortho, OMFS, etc)?
You could make the argument that Penn attracts students likely to pursue competitive specialties in the first place, but I could make a counter-argument saying that that environment is worth its weight in $$$; if it edges you out over other applicants, then so be it.
That said, I had to turn down Penn for Columbia, and this was purely a financial decision because I will have free housing with my brother in NYC (also a Columbia student). It was extremely painful to withdraw and I literally hesitated like 10 times before sending the email lol
Different priorities for different people. If you're just shooting for general dentistry, GPR, or AEGD, school name probably won't matter. But for competitive specialties, history doesn't lie - Penn will give you an advantage.
This kid is a troll. only 10 kids a year from ivy league schools? That number is vastly underestimated. Penn undergrad itself sends anywhere from 5-10 a year due to it having a biodental program.
Also, people who matter know what Penn is. Whether business, law, medicine, etc. People who do not know what Penn is probably has never even considered an ivy league school for any sort of education or have never been to the east coast. The 1% knows it and anyone with a high quality of education.
Well... I think 15/15 UCLA students matched for OMFS this year. So, I'll take my chances with a "non-Ivy."
IVYs are not for everyone.
What if I told you...
That I can name and have visited all of the IVYs and was accepted to Harvard, Columbia, and Penn for undergrad and to Columbia and Penn for dental (didn't apply to Harvard), and I still would not go to an IVY.
Let that sink in.
if someone trolled you and said your mom was "dirty and useless." would you try to justify that she wasn't?
That means nothing to me. I know tons of kids who picked non Ivy league schools over Ivy League schools in their undergrad when I met people during accepted students day. It's your choice not to pay the premium for the name, prestige, connections, etc that are associated with an ivy league bachelor's degree. Picking undergrad is more about fit and dental school is no different. But what I can say is you will never be able to get into Harvard law/business from wherever you go if you are not at a top school. Health professions is more blind towards prestige and name.
What if I told you...
That I can name and have visited all of the IVYs and was accepted to Harvard, Columbia, and Penn for undergrad and to Columbia and Penn for dental (didn't apply to Harvard), and I still would not go to an IVY.
Let that sink in.
The simple answer: to finally get the chance to attend an ivy league institution.
For the the grand majority of Penn Dental's first year class, the University of Pennsylvania (UPENN) will be the first ivy league institution they had the opportunity to attend. Approximately only 10 out of the 120 student class would have attended an ivy league institution prior, over half of which attended UPENN as undergraduates themselves.
Because there is no clear documented numerical ranking for dental schools as there is for medical and other graduate programs such as Law, many assume that the Ivy league schools must be the better institutions. Only three ivy league institutions have dental programs: Harvard, Columbia and UPENN. Of the three Harvard has the most world wide recognition, but is extremely difficult to get into because of its small class size, and because it is extremely selective, only interviewing and accepting the creme de la creme of pre-dental applicants. Columbia, while not a big a name as Harvard globally, still has great notoriety, especially due to its location in one of the most exciting cities on earth, New York City. Columbia like Harvard is also very selective, only choosing the students with the highest science GPA's and DAT scores. Of the three ivy dental institutions, UPENN has the largest class size and is the least selective of the three. Most Penn students applied and were not accepted to Harvard and Columbia, leaving UPENN as their only ivy league option, a secret most UPENN students will not admit to, and is the reason most attend. Its the only ivy school they could get into.
The funny thing is, until researching schools for dental school, the grand majority of these students did not even know what UPENN was, and were even more shocked to know that it is an ivy league institution. UPENN is a HUGE name in the city of Philadelphia because it is the largest employer of the city of Philadelphia. However outside of the Philadelphia community, most people get it mixed up with Pennsylvania State University where the majority of college educated native Pennsylvanians attended, much to the annoyance and chagrin of UPENN dental students who pay over $100,000 a year in tuition only have their name mixed up with a "lowly" "state" school.....even though many attended state schools as undergraduates themselves.
It also seems as though many students abandon the school pride of their former undergraduate institutions upon attending. You will rarely see a Tufts University Sweater or a Sacred Heart University Sweatpants past the first couple weeks of the semester. A rat race soon ensues to buy and wear the most Penn dental merchandise possible from sweatshirts and sweatpants to scrubs and beanies as if to announce to the entire UPENN campus (which is shared by both the undergrad and all grad schools) "HEY! I GO TO UPENN TOO!" It is a funny sight to see an entire class of first year dental students decked from head to toe in penn dental apparel in a lecture hall. They have more Penn pride than a 4th year senior about to graduate. I guess if you pay over a $100,000 a year in tuition, you must have a lot/justify your school pride!
Now one would think that with students paying $100,000 in tuition a semester that UPENN's dental school would have the nicest facilities of all the american dental schools, but it does not. Whilst The Robert Schattner center or main entrance of the school is a new and modern space that houses the admissions office, the billing office where patients check in and check out, as well as the faculty clinics and OS department, the rest of the school, where students spend the majority of their time are old and average at best. Like moles, students spend the grand majority of their time underground in the school's basement in windowless lecture halls, or the schools dentistry lab which is often described as a dungeon due to the untidy and dilapidated work space. The basement is also notorious for its leaky pipes, and the rotten egg smell coming from the drains.
So if the facilities are not the greatest, does the school make this up with an awesome faculty? While you have a small handful of really great professors, the rest are just average, and then you have some which are just straight a**holes. The worst are the foreign dentists who teach the general restorative lab course where first and second year dental student learn and hone their dental skills. Often hailing from the eastern Europe or South East Asia, these foreign dentists teach or rather torture dental students hand skills and techniques. They do not do it for the love of teaching, but rather a pay check as they legally cannot practice dentistry here in the United States. Their criticism is rather corrosive and harsh, and it is not unusual for student to break down in tears during and after lab sessions. One would think this sort of the thing would be frowned down upon by an institution of this caliber, but Penn dental seems to believe this tough love drill sergeant mentality creates better dental students. However it is this exact tough love mentality while Penn Dental has such few alumni donations, because students even decades afterwards are still bitter at what they had to go through to earn their dental degrees.
Many students try to justify the dental schools shortcomings and high price tag thinking upon graduation they will have superior clinical and hand skills than their other dental school counterparts, or are more likely to get into a specialty program of their choice or they will have more patients because they went to a name brand school and are "better" educated. The fact of the matter is the grand majority of patients do not care, and do not even ask where their dentist attend university? How many of you know what University the last dentist you had seen attended? Most people either choose a dentist via a recommendation from a family member, friend or dentist that he/she is highly skilled and capable provider, or they go to a clinic with the most affordable cost of their required procedure or where their insurance will allow. While attending Penn dental will make you attractive to a residency program, you will find that the majority of your residency class is made up of non-penn/ivy dental graduates, and you will learn that it is not as essential as you thought to getting into a resident program as the university would make you believe. Lastly while you enjoyed boasting and bragging to your dental and medical friends that you attended Penn Dental for the last four years receiving all the accolades that came along with it, in the real world outside of the dental bubble no one cares ad recognizes that you went to Penn Dental. No one knows that its a "top" school, or that its ivy league or even heard of its name. The name won't elicit awe them the same way the name Harvard or Columbia would and frankly never will. So if you go to Penn dental, don't be annoyed and angered that you paid half a million dollars to the tuition only for it to be mixed up with a state school.
All of your complaints about UPENN dental school - seem to be universal.
1) The fact that there are professors in dental school who yell at their students and make them cry - doesn't this happen at all dental schools?
2) The fact that tuition for UPENN dental school is $100,000 per year - isn't this NORMAL? Isn't the average cost of tuition for ANY dental school $100,000 per year?
3) The fact that the "basement" or the dental lab is dirty or broken down - why does that even matter? as long as the student is learning dentistry and clinical techniques, who cares if the basement or dental lab is dirty? Isn't there suppose to be sacrifice in life?
4) All of your complaints about UPENN dental school seem so small - what about the benefits? YOU GET TO BECOME A DENTIST!!!! How AMAZING is that? How few people are given the opportunity to become dentist and get accepted into dental school?
5) Your complaint regarding the clinical techniques are skills that are lacking in UPENN graduates - I have heard this from so many different dental school students - who worry that after graduating they might not have the technical skills to practice clinical dentistry. THIS IS SO NORMAL. It takes time, years to build a strong hand skills and technique. Some students actually apply into general practice residency - an entire extra year of schooling in order to perfect their clinical skills and hand techniques. WOW!
In order to become great in life, there has to be sacrifice. To achieve greatness, there has to be some type of sacrifice. If that sacrifice is having professors yell at you or going to a school where the facilities are not brand new, then that might be the sacrifice that we have to put up with in order to achieve our dreams.
Sacrifice, sacrifice, sacrifice.
Humility, humility, humility.
I know that you might be feeling sad about your dental school and wanting to complain - I have been there before, but thankfulness is something that we have to actively PRACTICE daily. Every day, write in a small diary everything that you are thankful for. Be thankful. Don't complain.
God has blessed you with the chance to go to an IVY LEAGUE (!) dental school - don't complain. Be thankful. If you meet one mean professor in dental school who yells at you, let it go, forgive, and remember to always thank God for what he has given you.
Ngyuenkimphat, I really understand and agree with the gist of what you're saying. You have a great outlook on life! However, I wanted to address just a few things.
1. Definitely. That's gonna happen anywhere, even though it shouldn't!
2. All dental schools do not cost 100k a year. Only private schools come close to that number. That's why it's such a huge deal to be accepted to your state school (or another state school that will let you switch to in-state tuition after your first year). For example, here are the expenses at UNC: https://www.dentistry.unc.edu/academic/dds/documents/tuition.pdf
3. I can understand wanting nice facilities. I wouldn't personally choose to shell out 100k a year to have dilapidated facilities. (Although I'm sure UPenn's facilities aren't actually dilapidated, haha!) If I'm going to be spending all day in a clinic, I don't think there's any shame in wanting it to be state-of-the-art and not look gross.
4. It's an honor to be accepted, but I'm not sure that schools are exactly doing us a favor by accepting us. We worked HARD to get here, and we're paying dearly for our educations. We're also going to be making money for the school's clinic. Schools accept us because they think we're competent and will be good representatives of the school. True, we've been blessed with the intelligence and willpower to get here, but that isn't any thanks to the school. It's true that beggars can't be choosers, but for 100k a year when you're flat broke, there are definitely certain things I'd be wanting in a school. Plus, there is just no way to justify 100k a year. It's not right.
5. A person can come out with good hand skills at any school if they're willing to do the work. I agree with you that this is a lame complaint. If a person comes out of school and still isn't competent, that's totally on them. They didn't seek out the opportunities to better themselves, and that's just a shame. However, on to the GPR point--not everyone does a GPR because they need to perfect the basic techniques. GPRs (at least the good ones) are basically a year where you get paid to learn about advanced dental techniques. It's like a year of paid CE.
Unfortunately, when you consider the tuition, the chance to go to an Ivy league school may not be so much of a blessing. Getting into any school is a huge accomplishment, sure. However, the fact that a school is Ivy league isn't necessarily so special. By and large, you can get just as good of an education at any state school for MUCH cheaper. I didn't apply to any Ivy league schools for this reason. A person who does well at an Ivy league can do just as well at a state school, and they'll usually come out with a much smaller debt load (unless they have a big scholarship, in which case that's awesome!!).
Sacrifice, humility, and thanking God--three universal truths!
So do the right thing and get kicked out of an accredited institution that has the Hippocratic Oath recited by every student. Seems logical.@Perfectlyhonest
In 2013, there was a gorup of four or five dental school students (all 3rd year students) at Meharry Dental School. They saw that there were some "illegal" things going on in the school (i.e., teachers changing grades for students, corruption, etc.), and so they filed a report of Meharry Dental School to CODA (Commission on Dental Accreditation) - and within a few weeks, they were kicked out of dental school. They brought their case to the judge, and the judge ruled in favor of the dental school.
So do the right thing and get kicked out of an accredited institution that has the Hippocratic Oath recited by every student. Seems logical.
I really don't feel comfortable knowing that a dental school can do that and get away with it. You are training people in the medical field who are literally operating on a person's mouth and the professors are ensuring that certain students get inflated grades to help them pass and then these students end up out there in a freaking practice operating on someone! Tell me that if you saw professors doing this you wouldn't go up to someone and out them. If someone is completely incapable of being a dentist and only graduates from the dental program due to inflated grades and corruption, there is no way in hell I would want that person out there with the possibility of them operating on my family and friends, or anyone for that matter. Humility is putting yourself on a lower pedestal than others, not staying silent while people get a degree allowing them to screw a patient over. The hippocratic Oath says to do no harm. How much harm do you think will happen if students stayed silent while incompetent dentists graduate and start working on patients?There has to be some type of sacrifice. If a student really want to become a dentist and earn that Doctor of Dental Surgery (DDS) degree - then there has to be some type of sacrifice.
Humility, humility, humility.
Humility always wins.
Well... I think 15/15 UCLA students matched for OMFS this year. So, I'll take my chances with a "non-Ivy."
IVYs are not for everyone.
I really don't feel comfortable knowing that a dental school can do that and get away with it. You are training people in the medical field who are literally operating on a person's mouth and the professors are ensuring that certain students get inflated grades to help them pass and then these students end up out there in a freaking practice operating on someone! Tell me that if you saw professors doing this you wouldn't go up to someone and out them. If someone is completely incapable of being a dentist and only graduates from the dental program due to inflated grades and corruption, there is no way in hell I would want that person out there with the possibility of them operating on my family and friends, or anyone for that matter. Humility is putting yourself on a lower pedestal than others, not staying silent while people get a degree allowing them to screw a patient over. The hippocratic Oath says to do no harm. How much harm do you think will happen if students stayed silent while incompetent dentists graduate and start working on patients?
and to your question fancyfloss, yes, I think it will eventually harm the patient, but you risk that debt if you complain to the coda about your school. that big amt of money you invested becomes worthless. and in the long run you have to think whether its worth it or not.
I know of instances in which this happens at my school, but I learned to keep my mouth shut.
One time, my best friend was in dental school. She was working on a patient and asked the dental professor to help her with a technique. He immediately took her instruments, slammed them down on the floor, and yelled at her so badly that she cried.
I really don't feel comfortable knowing that a dental school can do that and get away with it. You are training people in the medical field who are literally operating on a person's mouth and the professors are ensuring that certain students get inflated grades to help them pass and then these students end up out there in a freaking practice operating on someone! Tell me that if you saw professors doing this you wouldn't go up to someone and out them. If someone is completely incapable of being a dentist and only graduates from the dental program due to inflated grades and corruption, there is no way in hell I would want that person out there with the possibility of them operating on my family and friends, or anyone for that matter. Humility is putting yourself on a lower pedestal than others, not staying silent while people get a degree allowing them to screw a patient over. The hippocratic Oath says to do no harm. How much harm do you think will happen if students stayed silent while incompetent dentists graduate and start working on patients?
Look at the two bolded statements. Look at the two completely different scenarios you present. In no way am I saying to out a professor if he yells or makes you feel terrible, in fact I encourage it. It shows you can work under pressure and build it up early. Like bootcamp or military training to harden you up so time constraints and the work at hand doesn't faze you at all. What I am complaining/ranting/whining about is how professors/dentists are allowing students to pass who clearly shouldn't be passing and giving a free pass to those with some terrible handwork and incompetence. Keeping your mouth shut when you see something that is unethical and possibly illegal is not humility. Saying "I'm sorry" to a superior who makes you feel like a spec of rodent crap in front of a patient is humility. There is a fine line drawn in Sharpie between the two.Dear @FancyFloss - I completely understand your point of view - and on an emotional level - I completely understand how you feel - it hurts when your professors in dental school treat you badly or bully you ... but think about what happened to the four or five dental students at Meharry dental school who got kicked out of dental school when they reported all the corrupt things that were happening at the dental school.
To address this statement: Just simply let them take care of that for themselves. We do not work in their financials and so it is not something we can worry about. However, we want to become dentists and seeing corruption in the process of becoming a dentist is something that should not be toyed with, especially when it is a medical profession. You want to become a dentist for the money? Cool. Want to become a dentist because of the satisfaction from helping others and even possibly changing someones life? That's fine. Want to become a dentist because you have a strange secret obsession with putting your fingers in peoples mouth? Weird, but okay. For whatever reason you chose to enter the dental field, medical field, or any line of work ever in the history of work you have to see that letting loose people with degrees to practice in the medical field that don't make the cut is wrong and should be confronted. Could the students have handled it differently? Sure, they could have went to the dean in the dental program or whoever in the school before taking it to the top in the chain of command.Whenever you have that much money concentrated in one place - there has to be some level of corruption - some level of money laundering, thievery, and corruption.
Look at the two bolded statements. Look at the two completely different scenarios you present. In no way am I saying to out a professor if he yells or makes you feel terrible, in fact I encourage it. It shows you can work under pressure and build it up early. Like bootcamp or military training to harden you up so time constraints and the work at hand doesn't faze you at all. What I am complaining/ranting/whining about is how professors/dentists are allowing students to pass who clearly shouldn't be passing and giving a free pass to those with some terrible handwork and incompetence. Keeping your mouth shut when you see something that is unethical and possibly illegal is not humility. Saying "I'm sorry" to a superior who makes you feel like a spec of rodent crap in front of a patient is humility. There is a fine line drawn in Sharpie between the two.
As far as dental school and any other school being a business, no one argues that. It's all a money making scheme that we realize and are more than willing to pay for. The dentists teaching however should be concerned. They are the ones cranking out dentists that carry a diploma with their school's name on it and so a shotty dentist with a degree from Wherever University will give them a bad name. If you go to 4 terrible dentists and find out they all came from the same place, what are the odds of you asking where your next dentist graduated from?
To address this statement: Just simply let them take care of that for themselves. We do not work in their financials and so it is not something we can worry about. However, we want to become dentists and seeing corruption in the process of becoming a dentist is something that should not be toyed with, especially when it is a medical profession. You want to become a dentist for the money? Cool. Want to become a dentist because of the satisfaction from helping others and even possibly changing someones life? That's fine. Want to become a dentist because you have a strange secret obsession with putting your fingers in peoples mouth? Weird, but okay. For whatever reason you chose to enter the dental field, medical field, or any line of work ever in the history of work you have to see that letting loose people with degrees to practice in the medical field that don't make the cut is wrong and should be confronted. Could the students have handled it differently? Sure, they could have went to the dean in the dental program or whoever in the school before taking it to the top in the chain of command.
Half of my intelligence is still greater than all of yalls combined times infinity.
You are correct, we can only wait and hope never to have to deal with such a situation.However, I think that none of us will understand exactly how dental school will be until we are actually inside dental school - and are actually going through the incredible stress.
Are the girls dimes or nickles?I mean...or the fact that we had a 100% pass rate on the national boards...or the fact that we have faculty members that have actually made contributions to the advancement of dentistry.....or that our alumni network is arguably the strongest and most diverse...or the fact that our percentage of students who specialize is amazing. I know this sounds like I'm bragging, because I am. With that being said, they're all facts baby =) You don't want to attend Penn because of your own beliefs, then don't (it's simple). However, attempting to discredit the education value at Penn takes your anti-ivy league passion to another level. Also, just an FYI...a good portion of us were also accepted into other ivy leagues as well but I, like some of my colleagues, chose Penn because of what we experienced during the interview. My experience was different from my classmates but yet, each of us ended up here. Not here to argue, just here to set a few things straight.
Walking down Locust walk is like walking through a magazine....everybody is a model hahaAre the girls dimes or nickles?
Haha. You're kidding right? You're overestimating people. Most people know Harvard, Yale, and Princeton, but I'd be surprised if the average person could name all of the ivy league schools. At least the average American won't know.