Why students go to PENN Dental? The blunt truth about going to PENN

[JAWSSS]

All things considered equal, residency directors would likely take an Ivy graduate over a non-Ivy graduate. Why would they not? I know the common theme among SDN is that which school you go to doesn't matter, but for residency application purposes, I don't see how it can't. Residency directors all over the country will know and acknowledge the name, period. It makes their programs look good, keeps their prestige high. Take a look at the most competitive specialty in medicine (arguably PRS), and year after year, objectively speaking, residency programs glut over Ivy/Stanford/JHU/etc graduates. My friend was recently on an interview trail for orthopedic surgery (albeit not as competitive as PRS), and she was almost disgusted by how many Ivy grads she met on the way. Why wouldn't the same apply to the most competitive dental specialties (ortho, OMFS, etc)?

You could make the argument that Penn attracts students likely to pursue competitive specialties in the first place, but I could make a counter-argument saying that that environment is worth its weight in $$$; if it edges you out over other applicants, then so be it.

That said, I had to turn down Penn for Columbia, and this was purely a financial decision because I will have free housing with my brother in NYC (also a Columbia student). It was extremely painful to withdraw and I literally hesitated like 10 times before sending the email lol 🙁

Different priorities for different people. If you're just shooting for general dentistry, GPR, or AEGD, school name probably won't matter. But for competitive specialties, history doesn't lie - Penn will give you an advantage.

Well... I think 15/15 UCLA students matched for OMFS this year. So, I'll take my chances with a "non-Ivy."

IVYs are not for everyone.

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[steiner2]

All things considered equal, residency directors would likely take an Ivy graduate over a non-Ivy graduate. Why would they not? I know the common theme among SDN is that which school you go to doesn't matter, but for residency application purposes, I don't see how it can't. Residency directors all over the country will know and acknowledge the name, period. It makes their programs look good, keeps their prestige high. Take a look at the most competitive specialty in medicine (arguably PRS), and year after year, objectively speaking, residency programs glut over Ivy/Stanford/JHU/etc graduates. My friend was recently on an interview trail for orthopedic surgery (albeit not as competitive as PRS), and she was almost disgusted by how many Ivy grads she met on the way. Why wouldn't the same apply to the most competitive dental specialties (ortho, OMFS, etc)?

You could make the argument that Penn attracts students likely to pursue competitive specialties in the first place, but I could make a counter-argument saying that that environment is worth its weight in $$$; if it edges you out over other applicants, then so be it.

That said, I had to turn down Penn for Columbia, and this was purely a financial decision because I will have free housing with my brother in NYC (also a Columbia student). It was extremely painful to withdraw and I literally hesitated like 10 times before sending the email lol 🙁

Different priorities for different people. If you're just shooting for general dentistry, GPR, or AEGD, school name probably won't matter. But for competitive specialties, history doesn't lie - Penn will give you an advantage.

I disagree. What great achievements has Ivy League dental schools made in comparison to others? Ivy League works well for medicine as I stated earlier. Graduating from Harvard Law will get you instant interviews at top law firms. But dental residencies? You have to compare apples to apples. Also, your pool is diluted. Most ppl who go to Ivy League are the best and brightest in general. Therefore, more of them will go to a residency program. Is it the name of the school that got them in or the student's own volition and record? I think it's the latter.

 

[Masterus]

This kid is a troll. only 10 kids a year from ivy league schools? That number is vastly underestimated. Penn undergrad itself sends anywhere from 5-10 a year due to it having a biodental program.

Also, people who matter know what Penn is. Whether business, law, medicine, etc. People who do not know what Penn is probably has never even considered an ivy league school for any sort of education or have never been to the east coast. The 1% knows it and anyone with a high quality of education.

 

[JAWSSS]

This kid is a troll. only 10 kids a year from ivy league schools? That number is vastly underestimated. Penn undergrad itself sends anywhere from 5-10 a year due to it having a biodental program.

Also, people who matter know what Penn is. Whether business, law, medicine, etc. People who do not know what Penn is probably has never even considered an ivy league school for any sort of education or have never been to the east coast. The 1% knows it and anyone with a high quality of education.

What if I told you...

That I can name and have visited all of the IVYs and was accepted to Harvard, Columbia, and Penn for undergrad and to Columbia and Penn for dental (didn't apply to Harvard), and I still would not go to an IVY.

Let that sink in.

 

[kingenamel]

Well... I think 15/15 UCLA students matched for OMFS this year. So, I'll take my chances with a "non-Ivy."

IVYs are not for everyone.

Plus you get nice weather and the beach

 

[Masterus]

What if I told you...

That I can name and have visited all of the IVYs and was accepted to Harvard, Columbia, and Penn for undergrad and to Columbia and Penn for dental (didn't apply to Harvard), and I still would not go to an IVY.

Let that sink in.

That means nothing to me. I know tons of kids who picked non Ivy league schools over Ivy League schools in their undergrad when I met people during accepted students day. It's your choice not to pay the premium for the name, prestige, connections, etc that are associated with an ivy league bachelor's degree. Picking undergrad is more about fit and dental school is no different. But what I can say is you will never be able to get into Harvard law/business from wherever you go if you are not at a top school. Health professions is more blind towards prestige and name.

 

[#kalel]

All that I'm getting from this thread is that the fact that people are trying to justify it left and right from one troll post shows that it indeed does matter lol

Haters gonna hate but feed the fame. Continue 🙂

 

[Masterus]

if someone trolled you and said your mom was "dirty and useless." would you try to justify that she wasn't?

 

[#kalel]

if someone trolled you and said your mom was "dirty and useless." would you try to justify that she wasn't?

Reading comprehension is hard doe

 

[Screwtape]

That means nothing to me. I know tons of kids who picked non Ivy league schools over Ivy League schools in their undergrad when I met people during accepted students day. It's your choice not to pay the premium for the name, prestige, connections, etc that are associated with an ivy league bachelor's degree. Picking undergrad is more about fit and dental school is no different. But what I can say is you will never be able to get into Harvard law/business from wherever you go if you are not at a top school. Health professions is more blind towards prestige and name.

This is utter bullcrap. The Harvard Law brochure for their entering class (http://www.law.harvard.edu/prospective/jd/apply/for-web-brochure.pdf) says that there were 171 undergraduate schools represented in their L1 class. Unfortunately I couldn't find a list of the undergrad schools, but there are not 171 "top schools"- unless we have different definitions of top. I could also pull up some anecdotes of people I know that are in Harvard Law from good public state schools, but not NOT "top" schools. They definitely have a stronger preference to students from elite schools, but saying that people will never get in from non-top schools is ridiculous.

 

[ge71ge]

Well it's true patients give zero **** where their dentists did the DMDs...

I just want to specialize and being part of the PENN DMD system will be a huge help. I can confirm with as my mentor's a Penn alumnus and have sent his children to Penn specialties.. although i already got my acceptances at other schools, i still have my fingers crossed, hoping to get off the waitlist at Penn.

Dr. Cowen, Dr. Amsterdam are one of the top dentists among many others at Penn. Essentially co authers for many textbooks that dental schools use nowadays... Being a part of their trackrecord would be a great asset... let alone being mentored by them. I mean these guys shaped the modern dentistry!

 

[nguyenkimphat]

The simple answer: to finally get the chance to attend an ivy league institution.

For the the grand majority of Penn Dental's first year class, the University of Pennsylvania (UPENN) will be the first ivy league institution they had the opportunity to attend. Approximately only 10 out of the 120 student class would have attended an ivy league institution prior, over half of which attended UPENN as undergraduates themselves.

Because there is no clear documented numerical ranking for dental schools as there is for medical and other graduate programs such as Law, many assume that the Ivy league schools must be the better institutions. Only three ivy league institutions have dental programs: Harvard, Columbia and UPENN. Of the three Harvard has the most world wide recognition, but is extremely difficult to get into because of its small class size, and because it is extremely selective, only interviewing and accepting the creme de la creme of pre-dental applicants. Columbia, while not a big a name as Harvard globally, still has great notoriety, especially due to its location in one of the most exciting cities on earth, New York City. Columbia like Harvard is also very selective, only choosing the students with the highest science GPA's and DAT scores. Of the three ivy dental institutions, UPENN has the largest class size and is the least selective of the three. Most Penn students applied and were not accepted to Harvard and Columbia, leaving UPENN as their only ivy league option, a secret most UPENN students will not admit to, and is the reason most attend. Its the only ivy school they could get into.

The funny thing is, until researching schools for dental school, the grand majority of these students did not even know what UPENN was, and were even more shocked to know that it is an ivy league institution. UPENN is a HUGE name in the city of Philadelphia because it is the largest employer of the city of Philadelphia. However outside of the Philadelphia community, most people get it mixed up with Pennsylvania State University where the majority of college educated native Pennsylvanians attended, much to the annoyance and chagrin of UPENN dental students who pay over $100,000 a year in tuition only have their name mixed up with a "lowly" "state" school.....even though many attended state schools as undergraduates themselves.

It also seems as though many students abandon the school pride of their former undergraduate institutions upon attending. You will rarely see a Tufts University Sweater or a Sacred Heart University Sweatpants past the first couple weeks of the semester. A rat race soon ensues to buy and wear the most Penn dental merchandise possible from sweatshirts and sweatpants to scrubs and beanies as if to announce to the entire UPENN campus (which is shared by both the undergrad and all grad schools) "HEY! I GO TO UPENN TOO!" It is a funny sight to see an entire class of first year dental students decked from head to toe in penn dental apparel in a lecture hall. They have more Penn pride than a 4th year senior about to graduate. I guess if you pay over a $100,000 a year in tuition, you must have a lot/justify your school pride!

Now one would think that with students paying $100,000 in tuition a semester that UPENN's dental school would have the nicest facilities of all the american dental schools, but it does not. Whilst The Robert Schattner center or main entrance of the school is a new and modern space that houses the admissions office, the billing office where patients check in and check out, as well as the faculty clinics and OS department, the rest of the school, where students spend the majority of their time are old and average at best. Like moles, students spend the grand majority of their time underground in the school's basement in windowless lecture halls, or the schools dentistry lab which is often described as a dungeon due to the untidy and dilapidated work space. The basement is also notorious for its leaky pipes, and the rotten egg smell coming from the drains.

So if the facilities are not the greatest, does the school make this up with an awesome faculty? While you have a small handful of really great professors, the rest are just average, and then you have some which are just straight a**holes. The worst are the foreign dentists who teach the general restorative lab course where first and second year dental student learn and hone their dental skills. Often hailing from the eastern Europe or South East Asia, these foreign dentists teach or rather torture dental students hand skills and techniques. They do not do it for the love of teaching, but rather a pay check as they legally cannot practice dentistry here in the United States. Their criticism is rather corrosive and harsh, and it is not unusual for student to break down in tears during and after lab sessions. One would think this sort of the thing would be frowned down upon by an institution of this caliber, but Penn dental seems to believe this tough love drill sergeant mentality creates better dental students. However it is this exact tough love mentality while Penn Dental has such few alumni donations, because students even decades afterwards are still bitter at what they had to go through to earn their dental degrees.

Many students try to justify the dental schools shortcomings and high price tag thinking upon graduation they will have superior clinical and hand skills than their other dental school counterparts, or are more likely to get into a specialty program of their choice or they will have more patients because they went to a name brand school and are "better" educated. The fact of the matter is the grand majority of patients do not care, and do not even ask where their dentist attend university? How many of you know what University the last dentist you had seen attended? Most people either choose a dentist via a recommendation from a family member, friend or dentist that he/she is highly skilled and capable provider, or they go to a clinic with the most affordable cost of their required procedure or where their insurance will allow. While attending Penn dental will make you attractive to a residency program, you will find that the majority of your residency class is made up of non-penn/ivy dental graduates, and you will learn that it is not as essential as you thought to getting into a resident program as the university would make you believe. Lastly while you enjoyed boasting and bragging to your dental and medical friends that you attended Penn Dental for the last four years receiving all the accolades that came along with it, in the real world outside of the dental bubble no one cares ad recognizes that you went to Penn Dental. No one knows that its a "top" school, or that its ivy league or even heard of its name. The name won't elicit awe them the same way the name Harvard or Columbia would and frankly never will. So if you go to Penn dental, don't be annoyed and angered that you paid half a million dollars to the tuition only for it to be mixed up with a state school.

All of your complaints about UPENN dental school - seem to be universal.

1) The fact that there are professors in dental school who yell at their students and make them cry - doesn't this happen at all dental schools?

2) The fact that tuition for UPENN dental school is $100,000 per year - isn't this NORMAL? Isn't the average cost of tuition for ANY dental school $100,000 per year?

3) The fact that the "basement" or the dental lab is dirty or broken down - why does that even matter? as long as the student is learning dentistry and clinical techniques, who cares if the basement or dental lab is dirty? Isn't there suppose to be sacrifice in life?

4) All of your complaints about UPENN dental school seem so small - what about the benefits? YOU GET TO BECOME A DENTIST!!!! How AMAZING is that? How few people are given the opportunity to become dentist and get accepted into dental school?

5) Your complaint regarding the clinical techniques are skills that are lacking in UPENN graduates - I have heard this from so many different dental school students - who worry that after graduating they might not have the technical skills to practice clinical dentistry. THIS IS SO NORMAL. It takes time, years to build a strong hand skills and technique. Some students actually apply into general practice residency - an entire extra year of schooling in order to perfect their clinical skills and hand techniques. WOW!

In order to become great in life, there has to be sacrifice. To achieve greatness, there has to be some type of sacrifice. If that sacrifice is having professors yell at you or going to a school where the facilities are not brand new, then that might be the sacrifice that we have to put up with in order to achieve our dreams.

Sacrifice, sacrifice, sacrifice.
Humility, humility, humility.

I know that you might be feeling sad about your dental school and wanting to complain - I have been there before, but thankfulness is something that we have to actively PRACTICE daily. Every day, write in a small diary everything that you are thankful for. Be thankful. Don't complain.

God has blessed you with the chance to go to an IVY LEAGUE (!) dental school - don't complain. Be thankful. If you meet one mean professor in dental school who yells at you, let it go, forgive, and remember to always thank God for what he has given you.

 

[Glimmer1991]

Ngyuenkimphat, I really understand and agree with the gist of what you're saying. You have a great outlook on life! 🙂 However, I wanted to address just a few things. 🙂

1. Definitely. That's gonna happen anywhere, even though it shouldn't!

2. All dental schools do not cost 100k a year. Only private schools come close to that number. That's why it's such a huge deal to be accepted to your state school (or another state school that will let you switch to in-state tuition after your first year). For example, here are the expenses at UNC: https://www.dentistry.unc.edu/academic/dds/documents/tuition.pdf

3. I can understand wanting nice facilities. I wouldn't personally choose to shell out 100k a year to have dilapidated facilities. (Although I'm sure UPenn's facilities aren't actually dilapidated, haha!) If I'm going to be spending all day in a clinic, I don't think there's any shame in wanting it to be state-of-the-art and not look gross.

4. It's an honor to be accepted, but I'm not sure that schools are exactly doing us a favor by accepting us. We worked HARD to get here, and we're paying dearly for our educations. We're also going to be making money for the school's clinic. Schools accept us because they think we're competent and will be good representatives of the school. True, we've been blessed with the intelligence and willpower to get here, but that isn't any thanks to the school. 🙂 It's true that beggars can't be choosers, but for 100k a year when you're flat broke, there are definitely certain things I'd be wanting in a school. Plus, there is just no way to justify 100k a year. It's not right.

5. A person can come out with good hand skills at any school if they're willing to do the work. I agree with you that this is a lame complaint. If a person comes out of school and still isn't competent, that's totally on them. They didn't seek out the opportunities to better themselves, and that's just a shame. However, on to the GPR point--not everyone does a GPR because they need to perfect the basic techniques. GPRs (at least the good ones) are basically a year where you get paid to learn about advanced dental techniques. It's like a year of paid CE.

Unfortunately, when you consider the tuition, the chance to go to an Ivy league school may not be so much of a blessing. Getting into any school is a huge accomplishment, sure. However, the fact that a school is Ivy league isn't necessarily so special. By and large, you can get just as good of an education at any state school for MUCH cheaper. I didn't apply to any Ivy league schools for this reason. A person who does well at an Ivy league can do just as well at a state school, and they'll usually come out with a much smaller debt load (unless they have a big scholarship, in which case that's awesome!!). 🙂

Sacrifice, humility, and thanking God--three universal truths! 😀

All of your complaints about UPENN dental school - seem to be universal.

1) The fact that there are professors in dental school who yell at their students and make them cry - doesn't this happen at all dental schools?

2) The fact that tuition for UPENN dental school is $100,000 per year - isn't this NORMAL? Isn't the average cost of tuition for ANY dental school $100,000 per year?

3) The fact that the "basement" or the dental lab is dirty or broken down - why does that even matter? as long as the student is learning dentistry and clinical techniques, who cares if the basement or dental lab is dirty? Isn't there suppose to be sacrifice in life?

4) All of your complaints about UPENN dental school seem so small - what about the benefits? YOU GET TO BECOME A DENTIST!!!! How AMAZING is that? How few people are given the opportunity to become dentist and get accepted into dental school?

5) Your complaint regarding the clinical techniques are skills that are lacking in UPENN graduates - I have heard this from so many different dental school students - who worry that after graduating they might not have the technical skills to practice clinical dentistry. THIS IS SO NORMAL. It takes time, years to build a strong hand skills and technique. Some students actually apply into general practice residency - an entire extra year of schooling in order to perfect their clinical skills and hand techniques. WOW!

In order to become great in life, there has to be sacrifice. To achieve greatness, there has to be some type of sacrifice. If that sacrifice is having professors yell at you or going to a school where the facilities are not brand new, then that might be the sacrifice that we have to put up with in order to achieve our dreams.

Sacrifice, sacrifice, sacrifice.
Humility, humility, humility.

I know that you might be feeling sad about your dental school and wanting to complain - I have been there before, but thankfulness is something that we have to actively PRACTICE daily. Every day, write in a small diary everything that you are thankful for. Be thankful. Don't complain.

God has blessed you with the chance to go to an IVY LEAGUE (!) dental school - don't complain. Be thankful. If you meet one mean professor in dental school who yells at you, let it go, forgive, and remember to always thank God for what he has given you.

 

[FancyFloss]

This post made my morning haha

If the lab is as bad as it is claimed to be then I'd be pretty pissed off too that I am paying all that money and nothing is being done to update it. That goes without saying for any institution, dental school or not. And yea you can argue anyway you like about it being a "brand name" school but like everyone else is saying, you end up a dentist in the end with the same skills as every other graduate from dental school. Does the name sound good and look great on a diploma? Hells yea it does! But will it make you a better dentist? No because that is all dependent on the individual and how much work they are willing to invest into that diploma.

Do not discourage people by just straight up writing that going to Penn Dental is a terrible way to become a dentist because of the facilities. Students are given a tour of the campus (and I'm sure of the dental facilities as well) so they can judge for themselves whether it is right for them.

 

[ilovefruits]

wow

much hate

so drama.

I guess the most I/everyone can do is to have an amazing application to get the most # of interviews and then see for myself 😉 and have the options to pick which one I want...

 

[nguyenkimphat]

Ngyuenkimphat, I really understand and agree with the gist of what you're saying. You have a great outlook on life! 🙂 However, I wanted to address just a few things. 🙂

1. Definitely. That's gonna happen anywhere, even though it shouldn't!

2. All dental schools do not cost 100k a year. Only private schools come close to that number. That's why it's such a huge deal to be accepted to your state school (or another state school that will let you switch to in-state tuition after your first year). For example, here are the expenses at UNC: https://www.dentistry.unc.edu/academic/dds/documents/tuition.pdf

3. I can understand wanting nice facilities. I wouldn't personally choose to shell out 100k a year to have dilapidated facilities. (Although I'm sure UPenn's facilities aren't actually dilapidated, haha!) If I'm going to be spending all day in a clinic, I don't think there's any shame in wanting it to be state-of-the-art and not look gross.

4. It's an honor to be accepted, but I'm not sure that schools are exactly doing us a favor by accepting us. We worked HARD to get here, and we're paying dearly for our educations. We're also going to be making money for the school's clinic. Schools accept us because they think we're competent and will be good representatives of the school. True, we've been blessed with the intelligence and willpower to get here, but that isn't any thanks to the school. 🙂 It's true that beggars can't be choosers, but for 100k a year when you're flat broke, there are definitely certain things I'd be wanting in a school. Plus, there is just no way to justify 100k a year. It's not right.

5. A person can come out with good hand skills at any school if they're willing to do the work. I agree with you that this is a lame complaint. If a person comes out of school and still isn't competent, that's totally on them. They didn't seek out the opportunities to better themselves, and that's just a shame. However, on to the GPR point--not everyone does a GPR because they need to perfect the basic techniques. GPRs (at least the good ones) are basically a year where you get paid to learn about advanced dental techniques. It's like a year of paid CE.

Unfortunately, when you consider the tuition, the chance to go to an Ivy league school may not be so much of a blessing. Getting into any school is a huge accomplishment, sure. However, the fact that a school is Ivy league isn't necessarily so special. By and large, you can get just as good of an education at any state school for MUCH cheaper. I didn't apply to any Ivy league schools for this reason. A person who does well at an Ivy league can do just as well at a state school, and they'll usually come out with a much smaller debt load (unless they have a big scholarship, in which case that's awesome!!). 🙂

Sacrifice, humility, and thanking God--three universal truths! 😀

Dear @Glimmer1991 - thank you so much for responding to my post! I totally understand your point of view - and I think that there always needs to be two sides of the argument presented.

I think that if I were in the OP's shoes and was going through the stress of dental school - then I would totally understand on both an intellectual and emotional level all the complaints about the school.

Thank you again, @Glimmer1991 for responding 🙂

 

[tooth knockn]

Hey you don't want to attend PENN, then don't, go kick a can.

Others will take your place in a heart beat.

 

[nguyenkimphat]

@Perfectlyhonest - i know that you might be going through a lot of stress right now - and complaining about UPENN dental school might be a good way to relieve some of that stress. However, please be careful about when and where you complain.

In 2013, there was a gorup of four or five dental school students (all 3rd year students) at Meharry Dental School. They saw that there were some "illegal" things going on in the school (i.e., teachers changing grades for students, corruption, etc.), and so they filed a report of Meharry Dental School to CODA (Commission on Dental Accreditation) - and within a few weeks, they were kicked out of dental school. They brought their case to the judge, and the judge ruled in favor of the dental school.

I know that when you are stressed out or frustrated, it feels good to verbally complain out loud - but please be careful. Verbally complaining on this forum is perfectly fine - because no one knows who you are - but please be as careful as you can when you do complain. You might get into deep trouble.

Just put your head down, and endure the struggle for a few more months - then you will graduate from UPENN and - if you still have any ill-feeling against that school - you never have to go back there again.

 

[FancyFloss]

@Perfectlyhonest
In 2013, there was a gorup of four or five dental school students (all 3rd year students) at Meharry Dental School. They saw that there were some "illegal" things going on in the school (i.e., teachers changing grades for students, corruption, etc.), and so they filed a report of Meharry Dental School to CODA (Commission on Dental Accreditation) - and within a few weeks, they were kicked out of dental school. They brought their case to the judge, and the judge ruled in favor of the dental school.

So do the right thing and get kicked out of an accredited institution that has the Hippocratic Oath recited by every student. Seems logical.

 

[nguyenkimphat]

So do the right thing and get kicked out of an accredited institution that has the Hippocratic Oath recited by every student. Seems logical.

There has to be some type of sacrifice. If a student really want to become a dentist and earn that Doctor of Dental Surgery (DDS) degree - then there has to be some type of sacrifice.

Humility, humility, humility.

Humility always wins.

 

[FancyFloss]

There has to be some type of sacrifice. If a student really want to become a dentist and earn that Doctor of Dental Surgery (DDS) degree - then there has to be some type of sacrifice.

Humility, humility, humility.

Humility always wins.

I really don't feel comfortable knowing that a dental school can do that and get away with it. You are training people in the medical field who are literally operating on a person's mouth and the professors are ensuring that certain students get inflated grades to help them pass and then these students end up out there in a freaking practice operating on someone! Tell me that if you saw professors doing this you wouldn't go up to someone and out them. If someone is completely incapable of being a dentist and only graduates from the dental program due to inflated grades and corruption, there is no way in hell I would want that person out there with the possibility of them operating on my family and friends, or anyone for that matter. Humility is putting yourself on a lower pedestal than others, not staying silent while people get a degree allowing them to screw a patient over. The hippocratic Oath says to do no harm. How much harm do you think will happen if students stayed silent while incompetent dentists graduate and start working on patients?

 

[Silent Cool]

Well... I think 15/15 UCLA students matched for OMFS this year. So, I'll take my chances with a "non-Ivy."

IVYs are not for everyone.

UCLA is a pseudo-ivy: it's the same level of quality/prestige/reputation, etc.., but just not technically IVY. Same with Stanford and UCSF.

 

[BulovaInDent]

I really don't feel comfortable knowing that a dental school can do that and get away with it. You are training people in the medical field who are literally operating on a person's mouth and the professors are ensuring that certain students get inflated grades to help them pass and then these students end up out there in a freaking practice operating on someone! Tell me that if you saw professors doing this you wouldn't go up to someone and out them. If someone is completely incapable of being a dentist and only graduates from the dental program due to inflated grades and corruption, there is no way in hell I would want that person out there with the possibility of them operating on my family and friends, or anyone for that matter. Humility is putting yourself on a lower pedestal than others, not staying silent while people get a degree allowing them to screw a patient over. The hippocratic Oath says to do no harm. How much harm do you think will happen if students stayed silent while incompetent dentists graduate and start working on patients?

to the OP, I think you are lucky that you have people giving you feedback on your projects. for some projects at my d school, we only have 3 to 5 faculty.

to FancyFloss, chances are, you have never been a student at a dental school, if you have, you would be surprised at what d schools get away with

 

[FancyFloss]

No, I'm applying. It just angers me knowing that this can happen.

 

[BulovaInDent]

and to your question fancyfloss, yes, I think it will eventually harm the patient, but you risk that debt if you complain to the coda about your school. that big amt of money you invested becomes worthless. and in the long run you have to think whether its worth it or not.

I know of instances in which this happens at my school, but I learned to keep my mouth shut.

 

[nguyenkimphat]

and to your question fancyfloss, yes, I think it will eventually harm the patient, but you risk that debt if you complain to the coda about your school. that big amt of money you invested becomes worthless. and in the long run you have to think whether its worth it or not.

I know of instances in which this happens at my school, but I learned to keep my mouth shut.

Wow - it feels really good knowing that there are other dental students understand my point of view.

@FancyFloss - in life we will meet many crappy situations, but it is not always our job to preach out about it and protest - sometimes, sacrifice and humility is most important -

One time, my best friend was in dental school. She was working on a patient and asked the dental professor to help her with a technique. He immediately took her instruments, slammed them down on the floor, and yelled at her so badly that she cried.

Did my friend yell back at the professor? No.
Did my friend complain about the professor to the dean of the school? No.
Did my friend report that professor? No.

My friend just put her head down and quietly said, "I'm sorry," and guess what? Four years later, my friend ended up graduating from dental school. She is now a Doctor of Dental Surgery - D.D.S. - and she can't remember the name of that professor who yelled at her. She is now making $100,000 each year.

Sacrifice. Sacrifice. Sacrifice.
Humility. Humility. Humility.

HUMILITY ALWAYS WINS.

 

[Glimmer1991]

One time, my best friend was in dental school. She was working on a patient and asked the dental professor to help her with a technique. He immediately took her instruments, slammed them down on the floor, and yelled at her so badly that she cried.

That bolded part should not be okay. None of it should be, really, but especially that part. We pay a whole lot of money for those instruments.

 

[nguyenkimphat]

I really don't feel comfortable knowing that a dental school can do that and get away with it. You are training people in the medical field who are literally operating on a person's mouth and the professors are ensuring that certain students get inflated grades to help them pass and then these students end up out there in a freaking practice operating on someone! Tell me that if you saw professors doing this you wouldn't go up to someone and out them. If someone is completely incapable of being a dentist and only graduates from the dental program due to inflated grades and corruption, there is no way in hell I would want that person out there with the possibility of them operating on my family and friends, or anyone for that matter. Humility is putting yourself on a lower pedestal than others, not staying silent while people get a degree allowing them to screw a patient over. The hippocratic Oath says to do no harm. How much harm do you think will happen if students stayed silent while incompetent dentists graduate and start working on patients?

Dear @FancyFloss - I completely understand your point of view - and on an emotional level - I completely understand how you feel - it hurts when your professors in dental school treat you badly or bully you ... but think about what happened to the four or five dental students at Meharry dental school who got kicked out of dental school when they reported all the corrupt things that were happening at the dental school.

When did this lawsuit against Meharry dental school happen? It happened when the four or five students were in their third year of dental school - imagine if they had just kept quiet for a few more months - they would have already graduated from Meharry dental school in May 2014 - they would already be Doctors of Dental Surgery by now.

When the four or five dental students were being interviewed by the local TV station (I found the video on Youtube but it has been taken down recently) - one of the students said that Meharry Dental school is corrupt. However, There is corruption everywhere. Each school charges each individual student at least $300,000 in tuition money - do you think that itself is corruption? And each school can have anywhere from 80 to 244 students - so multiply $300,000 by 244. WOW! Whenever you have that much money concentrated in one place - there has to be some level of corruption - some level of money laundering, thievery, and corruption. And I don't think that Meharry dental school is the only dental school that is corrupt - if you type in the name of any dental school into the Google search bar - you will see that there is most likely going to be some type of lawsuit or scandal that broke out in that dental school.

And the fact that Meharry Dental school kicked out four or five dental students - that is such a SMALL thing in the eyes of that dental school - each dntal school gets funded millions of dollars from the governemnet to conduct research and education - they can afford the best lawyers to defend the school if the students do decide to sue the school - Meharry dental school is a historical landmark - a giant institution - they can DEFINITELY afford to lose a few dental students - NO BIG DEAL.

Dental school is a multi million dollar industry - a huge business - do you think that they really care about their students? @FancyFloss - when you start going to dental schools across the nation - they will act so nice to you like they really care about you - but when someone charges you almost half a million dollars in tuition money for your education - I find it hard to believe that dental schools really care about their students. Do they actually care about their students or do they care about the $300,000 in tuition money that that student is going to pay the dental school.

Learning to be quiet and to quietly put your head down - that can save your life. Learning to surrender and learning to quietly endure hardships - that can save you from so much trouble. Sometimes it is not always best to stand up for yourself. Lose a small battle to win the big war.

Whenever you want to achieve greatness in life, there has to be some level of sacrifice. whenever you want to become excellent at something - there has to be some level of sacrifice. If you want to earn that D.D.S. degree - there has to be some major sacrifice - that might mean that the next time you are being yelled at by your professor in dental school - just quietly endure - put away your pride - and keep your eyes on graduation. HUMILITY ALWAYS WINS.

humility, humility, humility.
sacrifice, sacrifice, sacrifice.

 

[dbd]

You're equating the definition of humility with turning the other cheek. It's not the same.

Logically, I completely understand and mostly agree with what you're saying. But based on your posts here and elsewhere, I question whether your point of view and ethical mindset is suitable for a career in healthcare.

 

[FancyFloss]

Dear @FancyFloss - I completely understand your point of view - and on an emotional level - I completely understand how you feel - it hurts when your professors in dental school treat you badly or bully you ... but think about what happened to the four or five dental students at Meharry dental school who got kicked out of dental school when they reported all the corrupt things that were happening at the dental school.

Look at the two bolded statements. Look at the two completely different scenarios you present. In no way am I saying to out a professor if he yells or makes you feel terrible, in fact I encourage it. It shows you can work under pressure and build it up early. Like bootcamp or military training to harden you up so time constraints and the work at hand doesn't faze you at all. What I am complaining/ranting/whining about is how professors/dentists are allowing students to pass who clearly shouldn't be passing and giving a free pass to those with some terrible handwork and incompetence. Keeping your mouth shut when you see something that is unethical and possibly illegal is not humility. Saying "I'm sorry" to a superior who makes you feel like a spec of rodent crap in front of a patient is humility. There is a fine line drawn in Sharpie between the two.

As far as dental school and any other school being a business, no one argues that. It's all a money making scheme that we realize and are more than willing to pay for. The dentists teaching however should be concerned. They are the ones cranking out dentists that carry a diploma with their school's name on it and so a shotty dentist with a degree from Wherever University will give them a bad name. If you go to 4 terrible dentists and find out they all came from the same place, what are the odds of you asking where your next dentist graduated from?

Whenever you have that much money concentrated in one place - there has to be some level of corruption - some level of money laundering, thievery, and corruption.

To address this statement: Just simply let them take care of that for themselves. We do not work in their financials and so it is not something we can worry about. However, we want to become dentists and seeing corruption in the process of becoming a dentist is something that should not be toyed with, especially when it is a medical profession. You want to become a dentist for the money? Cool. Want to become a dentist because of the satisfaction from helping others and even possibly changing someones life? That's fine. Want to become a dentist because you have a strange secret obsession with putting your fingers in peoples mouth? Weird, but okay. For whatever reason you chose to enter the dental field, medical field, or any line of work ever in the history of work you have to see that letting loose people with degrees to practice in the medical field that don't make the cut is wrong and should be confronted. Could the students have handled it differently? Sure, they could have went to the dean in the dental program or whoever in the school before taking it to the top in the chain of command.

 

[Demilaax]

.

 

[nguyenkimphat]

Look at the two bolded statements. Look at the two completely different scenarios you present. In no way am I saying to out a professor if he yells or makes you feel terrible, in fact I encourage it. It shows you can work under pressure and build it up early. Like bootcamp or military training to harden you up so time constraints and the work at hand doesn't faze you at all. What I am complaining/ranting/whining about is how professors/dentists are allowing students to pass who clearly shouldn't be passing and giving a free pass to those with some terrible handwork and incompetence. Keeping your mouth shut when you see something that is unethical and possibly illegal is not humility. Saying "I'm sorry" to a superior who makes you feel like a spec of rodent crap in front of a patient is humility. There is a fine line drawn in Sharpie between the two.

As far as dental school and any other school being a business, no one argues that. It's all a money making scheme that we realize and are more than willing to pay for. The dentists teaching however should be concerned. They are the ones cranking out dentists that carry a diploma with their school's name on it and so a shotty dentist with a degree from Wherever University will give them a bad name. If you go to 4 terrible dentists and find out they all came from the same place, what are the odds of you asking where your next dentist graduated from?


To address this statement: Just simply let them take care of that for themselves. We do not work in their financials and so it is not something we can worry about. However, we want to become dentists and seeing corruption in the process of becoming a dentist is something that should not be toyed with, especially when it is a medical profession. You want to become a dentist for the money? Cool. Want to become a dentist because of the satisfaction from helping others and even possibly changing someones life? That's fine. Want to become a dentist because you have a strange secret obsession with putting your fingers in peoples mouth? Weird, but okay. For whatever reason you chose to enter the dental field, medical field, or any line of work ever in the history of work you have to see that letting loose people with degrees to practice in the medical field that don't make the cut is wrong and should be confronted. Could the students have handled it differently? Sure, they could have went to the dean in the dental program or whoever in the school before taking it to the top in the chain of command.

Dear @FancyFloss - thank you so much for responding to my post - you are entitled to your own opinion - and you are correct - i agree with most of what you said.

However, I think that none of us will understand exactly how dental school will be until we are actually inside dental school - and are actually going through the incredible stress.

@FancyFloss - please be careful in dental school. Like @BulovaInDent said - sometimes if we do see something "iffy" in dental school . . . . . Is it worth it to speak out? What if you end up like the four or five dental students at Meharry Dental school who got kicked out for speaking up?

No one ever gets in trouble for talking too little, but people do get in trouble for talking too much.

Humility, humility, humility - humility always wins.

 

[nguyenkimphat]

Half of my intelligence is still greater than all of yalls combined times infinity.

what? i don't understand- this seems really random.... ?

 

[IsaacYankem]

Hmmm. Live in a gorgeous, classic American city for 4 years with solid nightlife and an education that can spring you 2x the annual salary of your contemporaries fresh out of school? Nah. Could never see why that'd be alluring.

 

[FancyFloss]

However, I think that none of us will understand exactly how dental school will be until we are actually inside dental school - and are actually going through the incredible stress.

You are correct, we can only wait and hope never to have to deal with such a situation.

 

[periopocket]

You guys forget that penn doesn't rank past 10, that's deff a plus homie!

 

[distressstudent]

Woah just a minute nguyenkimphat. Sorry, but I am going to have to call you out about the Meharry stuff. In the example about your friend and not fighting over her instrument, I will give that to you; it is a case of humility prevailing. However, regarding Meharry that's a completely different ball game.

I understand where you are coming from. Your dental degree is a big investment and jeopardizing that is very costly. But I am against you encouraging that people should just turn a blind eye to corruption and having you call that humility. To me, that's a completely different word. That's cowardice. In essence being humble, and demonstrating humility, entails that you have the power and right to lower yourself to a greater authority. In your Meharry case, being "humble" would mean acknowledge that corruption IS the greater authority. By turning a blind eye, you forsake your ability to be humble. You acknowledge that the corruption is the your authority and therefore you becoming corrupted yourself.

Calling out unethical practice is completely different than venting about frustration towards a professor or program. Please do not lump the two together. The consequences might be the same, but the situations is completely different. One is a matter of ethics and one is a matter of pride. I sincerely hope that when you personally encounter unethical situations in practice (IIRC you want to work as an associate...) you don't just turn a blind eye because you think it is "humble" to do so.


And while I am on this topic and rambling, I am going to have to say that there were ways the Meharry students could have handled the situation better without jeopardizing themselves. For instance, they could have took effort to hide their identity. Or, they could have contact the ethical body that have jurisdiction over Meharry as oppose to contacting Meharry.

Another thing, dental schools do care about ethics. I cannot explain to you why Meharry is so unethical, but you can just google cheating scandals in dental university and see how some of the schools dealt with it. For instance, I know a school that expelled 9 , suspended 6, and reprimanded 21 students for a cheating scandal. The school could have kept quiet about it and kept a good public image by silencing the one student who tipped them off about the cheating, but the school didn't. Now, I am not going to pretend that all schools are this ethical. I simply don't think your defeatist attitude is the right approach to these ethical situations.

 

[BrazilianRider]

 

[shulk]

Hold on here. Let's define the word "humility" - a modest or low view of one's own importance; humbleness. Witnessing something like money laundering and saying or doing nothing is not humility, it is cowardice and not reporting a crime. It is seriously unethical.

 

[tooth knockn]

Yea !

 

[PSKDentist]

I mean...or the fact that we had a 100% pass rate on the national boards...or the fact that we have faculty members that have actually made contributions to the advancement of dentistry.....or that our alumni network is arguably the strongest and most diverse...or the fact that our percentage of students who specialize is amazing. I know this sounds like I'm bragging, because I am. With that being said, they're all facts baby =) You don't want to attend Penn because of your own beliefs, then don't (it's simple). However, attempting to discredit the education value at Penn takes your anti-ivy league passion to another level. Also, just an FYI...a good portion of us were also accepted into other ivy leagues as well but I, like some of my colleagues, chose Penn because of what we experienced during the interview. My experience was different from my classmates but yet, each of us ended up here. Not here to argue, just here to set a few things straight.

 

[2THDDS]

They have more Penn pride than a 4th year senior about to graduate.


this part was still funny though.

 

[shyfox9p]

I mean...or the fact that we had a 100% pass rate on the national boards...or the fact that we have faculty members that have actually made contributions to the advancement of dentistry.....or that our alumni network is arguably the strongest and most diverse...or the fact that our percentage of students who specialize is amazing. I know this sounds like I'm bragging, because I am. With that being said, they're all facts baby =) You don't want to attend Penn because of your own beliefs, then don't (it's simple). However, attempting to discredit the education value at Penn takes your anti-ivy league passion to another level. Also, just an FYI...a good portion of us were also accepted into other ivy leagues as well but I, like some of my colleagues, chose Penn because of what we experienced during the interview. My experience was different from my classmates but yet, each of us ended up here. Not here to argue, just here to set a few things straight.

Are the girls dimes or nickles?

 

[PSKDentist]

Are the girls dimes or nickles?

Walking down Locust walk is like walking through a magazine....everybody is a model haha

 

[Grad015]

As a forth-year Penn Dental student in the midst of the orthodontics interview process (almost done!), I will try to clarify a few things. (Obviously I am somewhat biased - we all are - but I will try to be as objective as possible here.)


1) No dental school is perfect. Ivy or non-ivy. When going to various interviews across the country, I compared my aggravations with the aggravations of others (including people from UCLA, Nova, Maryland, Rutgers, Columbia, Detroit, and many more). Our issues are all VERY similar! Unfortunately, dental school is a difficult beast to run, and it seems like no dean or committee has perfected it.


2) Just because a school is more well-known, or "ivy-league", it does not necessarily mean the training is better or worse. At my interviews, I met people from state schools who are extremely smart, accomplished, sociable, and have had an extremely comprehensive clinical experience. I met people from certain ivy-schools who were similar. And I met people from both who were less impressive and saw far fewer clinical cases. "Ivy," or a big name, does not in-and-of-itself guarantee a certain type of education.


3) Overall, I have been happy with my education at Penn. As I have never attended another dental school, it is obviously difficult to compare, but I can definitively say that a) I’ve completed more cases of fix pros, simple op, perio, and extractions than most others I met on my interview trail, and at least the average number of cases of removeables and endo; b) I’ve done more specialty rotations (in every field) than anyone else I met on the interview trail; c) I made some incredible friends; d) I’ve loved living in Philly. The clinic is run chaotically, and I am NOT happy about this, but everyone I met from everywhere said it’s exactly the same at their school.


4) The overall caliber of students at Penn is very high, contrary to what some others have said. (Having said that, I’m sure it would be high at any dental school.) I have a few friends that graduated from undergrad with the highest possible awards of academic achievement. There are several people here that had impressive careers (e.g. MD [general surgery resident], Wall St.) before deciding to enter dental school. Also contrary to what some have said, I personally know many people who came from very prestigious schools (in my class alone there are several people from Princeton, Yale, and Columbia, one from UChicago, one from Caltech…this is just the beginning). I also have a few friends that were offered spots at Columbia and Harvard but chose to come here. I was personally accepted at the University of Toronto (don’t look at applicants with <3.85 cGPA) but chose to come here.


5) For those interested in specializing, Penn has its advantages. At every interview I went to (went to 12 total), the greatest number of interviewees were from Penn, followed by Columbia and/or UCLA. One member of an admissions committee told me that the number one thing they look at when deciding who to interview is the dental school they are at. He then said: “You went to Penn. Check.”

 

[Silent Cool]

Haha. You're kidding right? You're overestimating people. Most people know Harvard, Yale, and Princeton, but I'd be surprised if the average person could name all of the ivy league schools. At least the average American won't know.

Agree.

Most people probably think that Stanford is an Ivy League school, LOL.

 

[Smiley19]

Dear @FancyFloss - thank you so much for responding to my post - you are entitled to your own opinion - and you are correct - i agree with most of what you said.

No one ever gets in trouble for talking too little, but people do get in trouble for talking too much.

Humility, humility, humility - humility always wins.

I know I'm a bit late on this... but 9-1-1 dispatchers get in trouble all of the time for talking too little. Not talking enough gets first-responders hurt and potentially killed in the line of duty.

 

[anonon]

o____o

 

[anonon]

still true?

 

[rogerpc]

still true?

The facilities part is not true anymore. Upenn recently remolded the whole basement