Why there is not a lot of neurosurgeons ?

[Raid KH]

Hello,
go to any hospital website and compare the number of neurosurgeons vs internal med, cardio, ,,,etc. They are probably the smallest surgery group in the hospital. I know that its because of the residency spots, but then why don't they rise the number of spots?? isn't brain surgery that demanded ??

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Richard Dawkins]

supply and demand

 

[da8s0859q]

Hello,
go to any hospital website and compare the number of neurosurgeons vs internal med, cardio, ,,,etc. They are probably the smallest surgery group in the hospital. I know that its because of the residency spots, but then why don't they rise the number of spots?? isn't brain surgery that demanded ??

Neurosurgery is an extremely long residency, is among the more competitive residencies to even get into, and is very intense. Neurosurgeons put in some of the longest hours at the hospital, and with the shift towards "lifestyle specialties" that allow people to have more of a life outside medicine, not many people pursue it.

 

[pfaction]

Topic underneath: http://forums.sdn.net/showthread.php?t=942286

 

[jhuskp]

They also tend to have one of the highest malpractice risks, thus, fewer hospitals are willing to hire a lot of doctors practicing a specialty that incurs a high number of lawsuits.

It is a very time consuming specialty; six to seven years of residency, followed by a practice that includes eight to ten hour surgeries.

 

[mmmcdowe]

All of these things a great, but the truth is the reason why there are so few neurosurgeons is the fact that they have a tight grip on keeping the number of residency spots low. Supply and Demand, as was mentioned above.

 

[WDeagle]

Hello,
go to any hospital website and compare the number of neurosurgeons vs internal med, cardio, ,,,etc. They are probably the smallest surgery group in the hospital. I know that its because of the residency spots, but then why don't they rise the number of spots?? isn't brain surgery that demanded ??

How many people that are admitted to a hospital will need an internist? Just about every single one of them. How many will need a cardiologist? A lot of them will. How many need brain surgery? Probably like less than 1% of hospital admissions will require a neurosurgery consult.

 

[da8s0859q]

All of these things a great, but the truth is the reason why there are so few neurosurgeons is the fact that they have a tight grip on keeping the number of residency spots low. Supply and Demand, as was mentioned above.

Definitely, but I would be willing to bet that you could dramatically increase residency slots and not see a proportionate rise in the number of residents. That kind of life isn't for everyone.

 

[45408]

How many people that are admitted to a hospital will need an internist? Just about every single one of them. How many will need a cardiologist? A lot of them will. How many need brain surgery? Probably like less than 1% of hospital admissions will require a neurosurgery consult.

What? No.

 

[Bangersandmash]

Definitely, but I would be willing to bet that you could dramatically increase residency slots and not see a proportionate rise in the number of residents. That kind of life isn't for everyone.

Aren't there usually around 500 applicants for around 250-300 neurosurgery spots? Demand is clearly outweighing supply.

With that said, the fact remains only a few hundred people from around the country are interested each year in the first place.

 

[Richard Dawkins]

Aren't there usually around 500 applicants for around 250-300 neurosurgery spots? Demand is clearly outweighing supply.

With that said, the fact remains only a few hundred people from around the country are interested each year in the first place.

demand of society is not outweighing supply. demand of students doesn't really matter

 

[pre med 2014]

Neurosurgery is an extremely long residency, is among the more competitive residencies to even get into, and is very intense. Neurosurgeons put in some of the longest hours at the hospital, and with the shift towards "lifestyle specialties" that allow people to have more of a life outside medicine, not many people pursue it.

yea, but look how easy this youtube video makes brain surgery look....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1txmx2p1Bbg&feature=related

 

[Brachyury]

Aren't there usually around 500 applicants for around 250-300 neurosurgery spots? Demand is clearly outweighing supply.

With that said, the fact remains only a few hundred people from around the country are interested each year in the first place.

No, neurosurgery is not that competitive, however, plastics and derm are. The reality is that even if you are a middle-of-the-road student, you probably will not have too much difficulty matching into neurosurgery simply because there aren't a lot of people who want to do it

 

[neusu]

No, neurosurgery is not that competitive, however, plastics and derm are. The reality is that even if you are a middle-of-the-road student, you probably will not have too much difficulty matching into neurosurgery simply because there aren't a lot of people who want to do it

This is patently false. For the 3 specialties you listed, the 2011 NRMP Charting Outcomes report indicates the number of matched positions/applicants for neurosurgery, plastics, and dermatology are 191/268 81/197 363/519; respectively. That translates to 71.3%, 41.1%, and 69.9%; respectively.

The numbers for plastics are scewed by the fact that those who fail to match categorical plastics can match general surgery and thereafter pursue a fellowship match.

Delving further in to the data, the Step 1 scores for US grads are 239, 249, and 244; respectively.

The probability of being "middle-of-the-road," or average, and matching is < 50%.

 

[KinasePro]

This is patently false. For the 3 specialties you listed, the 2011 NRMP Charting Outcomes report indicates the number of matched positions/applicants for neurosurgery, plastics, and dermatology are 191/268 81/197 363/519; respectively. That translates to 71.3%, 41.1%, and 69.9%; respectively.

The numbers for plastics are scewed by the fact that those who fail to match categorical plastics can match general surgery and thereafter pursue a fellowship match.

Delving further in to the data, the Step 1 scores for US grads are 239, 249, and 244; respectively.

The probability of being "middle-of-the-road," or average, and matching is < 50%.

This is still only part of the picture though. 82% of neurosurgery AMG applicants with Step 1 around the national average (221-230) matched successfully, which is WAYYYY better chances than derm (67%) or plastics (12%) applicants with similar scores.

90% of all US seniors applying to neurosurg matched, with barely any of those applicants having Step 1 <220 (hence the shift). This means that assuming you put together a solid application (letters, aways, research, clinical grades), by-definition "middle of the road" numbers will give you a solid chance of matching.

 

[Thego2guy]

How many people that are admitted to a hospital will need an internist? Just about every single one of them. How many will need a cardiologist? A lot of them will. How many need brain surgery? Probably like less than 1% of hospital admissions will require a neurosurgery consult.

It is extremely frustrating that people simply ignore the fact that neurosurgeons perform spine surgery. In fact, an overwhelming majority of all neurosurgical procedures are on the spine. I am not even going to mention the fact that they are trained to perform surgery on the peripheral nervous system as well.

This isn't aimed at you btw, I just want to point this out in general. Spine pathology is fairly common, and becomes extremely common in the elderly. Neurosurgeons play a very significant role here.

Definitely, but I would be willing to bet that you could dramatically increase residency slots and not see a proportionate rise in the number of residents. That kind of life isn't for everyone.

No. Definitely not, unfortunately.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

It is extremely frustrating that people simply ignore the fact that neurosurgeons perform spine surgery. In fact, an overwhelming majority of all neurosurgical procedures are on the spine. I am not even going to mention the fact that they are trained to perform surgery on the peripheral nervous system as well.

This isn't aimed at you btw, I just want to point this out in general. Spine pathology is fairly common, and becomes extremely common in the elderly. Neurosurgeons play a very significant role here.

Spine is typically a battleground between ortho and neurosurgeons as both can do spine fellowships (and it pays mucho dinero). So no, neurosurgeons don't necessarily pick up all the spine cases at any given hospital and the amount of spine cases they'll get varies depending on the hospital.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Definitely, but I would be willing to bet that you could dramatically increase residency slots and not see a proportionate rise in the number of residents. That kind of life isn't for everyone.

If you dramatically increased the number of slots, the applicant pool would increase and be filled with those who self selected out due to low stats. I have no doubt that if you doubled the number of slots they would easily be filled.

 

[sinombre]

demand of society is not outweighing supply. demand of students doesn't really matter

Exactly.

 

[metaphase]

Because peoples' brains work a lot better than the heart or other internal organs.

 

[YH5]

It is extremely frustrating that people simply ignore the fact that neurosurgeons perform spine surgery. In fact, an overwhelming majority of all neurosurgical procedures are on the spine. I am not even going to mention the fact that they are trained to perform surgery on the peripheral nervous system as well.

This isn't aimed at you btw, I just want to point this out in general. Spine pathology is fairly common, and becomes extremely common in the elderly. Neurosurgeons play a very significant role here.



No. Definitely not, unfortunately.

I see what you did there.

 

[Thego2guy]

Spine is typically a battleground between ortho and neurosurgeons as both can do spine fellowships (and it pays mucho dinero). So no, neurosurgeons don't necessarily pick up all the spine cases at any given hospital and the amount of spine cases they'll get varies depending on the hospital.

Agree that there is a lot (not complete) of overlap with ortho. This is irrelevant to my point though. My point is that neurosurgery is apparently synonymous with craniotomies, meanwhile something like >75% of all neurosurgeries are on the spine. Hence I said it frustrates me that people forget what most neurosurgeons actually do...

I see what you did there.

You caught me

 

[Raid KH]

Neurosurgeons are few because of supply and demand? Then why do they work long death of hours, a typical neurosurgeon work 80+ hours a week, and often on-calls. Doesn't that mean that they are extremely demanded? Wouldn't be better if they increase the residency spots and help surgeons to have life??

 

[Richard Dawkins]

Neurosurgeons are few because of supply and demand? Then why do they work long death of hours, a typical neurosurgeon work 80+ hours a week, and often on-calls. Doesn't that mean that they are extremely demanded? Wouldn't be better if they increase the residency spots and help surgeons to have life??

no, they work those hours because that's how much work it takes to become a competent neurosurgeon.

http://uncleharvey.com/

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Because peoples' brains work a lot better than the heart or other internal organs.

the current american political climate seems to indicate otherwise

 

[jl lin]

Neurosurgery is an extremely long residency, is among the more competitive residencies to even get into, and is very intense. Neurosurgeons put in some of the longest hours at the hospital, and with the shift towards "lifestyle specialties" that allow people to have more of a life outside medicine, not many people pursue it.

This.


Although... I think "very intense" is an understatement. Even if I were a genius, had perfect fine motor skills, excellent eye-hand coordination, and top-notch, three-dimensional reasoning skills, I wouldn't sign on for it; b/c it is major bustyb@lls--getting there (residency and fellowship) and everything thereafter. I think you have to be in love with it, and even then, you have to be gooooood.

 

[KnuxNole]

What? No.

Yes, all the babies screen through medicine before going to the peds ward, and the preggo ladies have to stop in the medicine floor before going to L+D. And by the time the 5 hr rounds end, she has already delivered

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Yes, all the babies screen through medicine before going to the peds ward, and the preggo ladies have to stop in the medicine floor before going to L+D. And by the time the 5 hr rounds end, she has already delivered

this truth should not pass unnoticed