Why UTSW?

[Dookter]

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Yes, but at the end of the day, you are still ranked with all of your peers. That, to me, equals competition.

Also, I don't believe all the crap about no one sharing notes. Do you really think that no one shares notes at UTSW? Give me a break. But, this point is all sort of moot since UTSW provides audio and videotaped lectures.

I can turn your one medical school comment back on you. Since you've never attended a so-called "competitive" medical school, you really don't know how competitive it really is (if at all.)

Actually, we aren't officially ranked. When we asked my advisory dean about this in the context of "so and so is applying to residency at the same place as so and so, what happens?" he said that there might be a little ranking that goes on then. But basically, there is no "top" student. If there is, we know nothing about it.

And I never said that students at other schools don't share notes. I just said that when you attend a school that is truly cooperative, there is absolutely no reason to not be as helpful as possible. And trust me, having video and audio lectures does not = having everything you need in an easy to access, instant study form. How do I know? Cause we have it all.

And you're right....I've never attended a "competitive" school. I was just replying to your initial comment that seemed to suggest that it was stupid to want to go to a cooperative school since everyone at all schools just competes with each other anyway, which isn't the case. In other words, I am commenting on what I DO know about: a non-competitive school. Not what I don't know about.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

But you disagree that LA is a pretentious, expensive, huge (sprawling) city with horrible traffic? I can agree to disagree just fine, but I'm trying to get an idea of to what you are calibrating your experiences. Those were the reasons that you gave for hating Texas cities, and, IMHO, other cities (like LA, for instance) are much worse in those respects.

EDIT: To be fair, I grew up in suburbs of New York City and Newark, NJ. I have lived in Pittsburgh, PA, The SF Bay Area, and Austin, TX. My wife is from Tucson, AZ, so I have visited extensively. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that your experiences are not valid, but, for the reasons that you listed, I've found those other places where I have lived to be much worse.

Honestly, I don't love L.A.. I'd rather be there than in Texas just because there's more outdoorsy things to do, and it's more liberal. Dallas and Austin sort of want to be L.A., imo, but they're lacking the beach and the mountains and the weird people. So, yeah, I'd rather have L.A if I had to make a choice between the them, but neither would be ideal for me. My idea US cities are Portland, Seattle, San Francisco, Boston, Washington, DC and maybe New York (too expensive, though). I like places where you can walk a lot. I like public transit. I like well developed urban areas.

I admittedly also like seasons and don't like hot weather, so that was one reason why I didn't like Austin. 🙂 When I was miserable when it was 100 degrees outside, I wanted to shoot everyone who said junk like "I'd rather have 6 months of summer than six months of winter." 😡 🙂

And, of course, I just didn't think people in Austin were that nice. I moved there in 1999 when everybody and their dog was moving there, so that might have explained some of the coldness. It's just you expect people in Texas to be super friendly because it's the south and all, but that just wasn't true for me. Again, individually people were friendly because there's no real variation in individual friendliness in different cities, but the city as a whole just didn't seem open.

 

[Dookter]

Simple question: Does your school rank its students? If so then you are competing with each other. And everything you just said about Duke applies to Southwestern - we help each other out a ton here. We distribute notes, review sheets all the time, or upload them to a class folder that everyone can access. You can indeed have a competitive student body without having a competitive atmosphere.

As I said to another person, we're not really ranked against each other as far as I know. If we are, it must be kept pretty secret since I've never heard about it. And I never said that kids at UTSW don't help each other out. As I just stated about, someone said that they do not understand when people would rather not attend competitive schools when they could attend more cooperative schools. They questioned people actually working together since apparently all medical students compete against each other. I'm just saying this isn't the case. It has nothing to do with UTSW. I just commented so people realize that this is simply not the case. Some schools do have students that work together. Who knows. Maybe I'm in some huge denial about how my school really works. But I haven't competed with a single person since I've come to medical school over anything. If that's the sort of thing people want, it's out there.

 

[Wizard of Oz]

UTSW's never claimed it was the site of all the Nobel-winning work, just that the number of Laureates speak to the quality of faculty here and the type of scientists they attract and keep.

I'll buy that as an argument as long as students realize that the research mission of a given school is often independent of its M1/M2 teaching mission. 👍 Oftentimes the best scientists are the poorest teachers and/or are least likely to be significantly involved in the curriculum. Once you have somebody who has become an administrator after they earned a prize and no longer runs a lab, all you need to do to keep them is keep paying them.

What a researcher looks for in a school and what a med student looks for in a school needn't coincide. Really if you are considering a school for its research potential, look at basic science faculty turnover (in which my place is terrible), total NIH funding, or number of research fellows employed by grants.

Was that you who asked me what burned me about UTSW in the MSAR? I guess I can answer here even though it's bound to anger some folks. They specifically spelled out in their requirements that they were going to start to "use race/ethnicity as one of the criteria for evaluating applicants" in 2006. True, Baylor is notorious for its quotas, but at least they have the dignity to encode their diversity program inside of a vague statement about how they have a diverse adcom and student body. When you spell out in an official communication that you're going to consider my skin color as a reason to admit or deny me, then you're telling me that I might be less welcome due to a reason that I can't control. That's not cool even if the Supreme Court says it's okay.

I love diversity. My school has none, and it displeases me greatly. I just don't find it appropriate to come right out and say that you're going to discriminate against people for having a specific ethnic background. You'll note that I haven't intended to infer what exactly UTSW means by their statement. For all I know, they may give people like me bump--DKDC, it doesn't matter either way.

 

[Gobble Town]

It depends on how you work, though.

I am motivated by a more competitive environment, as I tend to be pretty competitive myself (let's pretend I didn't just admit that on SDN, ok?). It gives me the motivation I need to work harder. Also, having motivated people around me also helps a lot.

In a system that assigns grades based not on one's mastery of the material but on the competition's lack thereof, competition becomes unhealthy. It cultivates an atmosphere of distrust, sabotage, oneupmanship, and a yearning to receive the slightest edge over the other guy. Cooperation is not logical in situations such as these as "sharing notes" or relaying hints about tests will adversely effect their grade.

Competition itself is not inherently evil. In systems that assign grades based on one's mastery of the material, regardless of how the competition performs, there is no disincentive to cooperate. The playing field is level and each is judged based on his/her own performance.

Although there will still be a gradient and a class rank, essential in filling residency spots with the most qualified, the likelihood of an atmosphere of caustic competition is mitigated by the distal nature of this ranking. It becomes easier to hold feelings of goodwill and camaraderie towards fellow classmates when the competitors have less stake in another's poor performance.

At my UTSW interview I sat with three students, and I was shocked at how unhappy they seemed. One railed on about how she should have gone to UTHSCSA, another debated the value of "the name", and the most positive thing that could be said about their experience was "We'll see if it was all worth it after graduation." I found myself in the awkward position of consoling them on their decisions to attend, as an interviewee. I do not know if unhealthy competition is directly to blame, but the atmosphere was not appealing.

I agree with Dr. Watson and Dookter, it should be about learning the material to be able to rock USMLE, the great equalizer and efficient ranking method, not to best your fellow classmates. But it is true, "to each his own."

 

[FemalesCANTDriv]

hey dudes and dudettes... my buddy at utsw sent me an email today with an attachment their class all got after biochem their first block or whatever they do there... anyway, it laid out the last 6 graduating classes by quartiles and residencies... basically showing u that even if u finish like in the bottom 25% of ure class, you can still go into derm and radiology and stuff... ya so anyway, just thought id pass that info along

 

[biggoron42]

At my UTSW interview I sat with three students, and I was shocked at how unhappy they seemed. One railed on about how she should have gone to UTHSCSA, another debated the value of "the name", and the most positive thing that could be said about their experience was "We'll see if it was all worth it after graduation." I found myself in the awkward position of consoling them on their decisions to attend, as an interviewee. I do not know if unhealthy competition is directly to blame, but the atmosphere was not appealing.

over the course of the past few months, ive found it is very dangerous to generalize about how happy a student body is based on the 5-10 students you meet on an interview.

case in point, all the students i met at UTSW were actually much much happier than i expected, and i came in fully expecting to see people beat-down by the supposed competition at the school.

i think you'll find a very similar mix of "happiness levels" at most schools. thats just my opinion after the 6 or so campuses ive visited...

 

[sprinkibrio]

As I said to another person, we're not really ranked against each other as far as I know.

Be prepared to stand out somehow... USMLE, 3rd year grades, extracurriculars, AOA. The problem with no rankings is you have fewer ways to distinguish yourself from your class and every other school's class who doesn't rank.

 

[Dookter]

Be prepared to stand out somehow... USMLE, 3rd year grades, extracurriculars, AOA. The problem with no rankings is you have fewer ways to distinguish yourself from your class and every other school's class who doesn't rank.

Something tells me I won't have a problem, ranking or not. Thankfully, I just get to stand out without the stress of working against my classmates.

 

[Anastasis]

Give us a holla here, Anastasis.

You mean why did I rank UT-H over UTSW? Honestly, the reasons are pretty specific to me so I don't know how it would help out the OP. 🙁

Here goes:

Yes, Parkland is pretty amazing. But so is the TMC, and in my own admittedly very biased opinion, I think the TMC is more impressive than Parkland.

Also, I'm not really interested in research. (but if I change my mind there are still plenty of opporunities at UT-H and if the OP is interested in research look at it this way: less students are interested in research at UT-H than UTSW... so they'll be "less" competition, relatively speaking, for the good positions)

I AM interested in medical humanities and UTSW doesn't really have a system in place for that. It's something I would have had to pursue on my own, which I wouldn't have minded doing but still it's a mark against the school in my mind.

In the end I was really looking for a school where I felt at home and where I thought I would be happy for 4 years. I'm not looking for a prestigious residency (primary care!! Whoo hoo! 🙂 ) so the reputation of UTSW didn't really appeal to me. The students at UTSW seemed very stressed whereas the students at UT-H seemed genuinely happy to be there. (I also admittedly had a bad experience with a UTSW med student bashing San Antonio within a few minutes of my arrival in the morning. I'm sure this isn't the norm but it was still unsettling)

Anyway those are reasons very specific to me for why I didn't rank UTSW #1.

To anyone trying to decide where to rank the schools: Go with the place that fits your goals and interests plus where you think you'll be happy. It's 4 years of your life and whether or not you're miserable will affect your performance in medical school.


(oh yeah, the money helped my decision too 😀 )

Edit: and back off Texas 😀

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

Was that you who asked me what burned me about UTSW in the MSAR? I guess I can answer here even though it's bound to anger some folks. They specifically spelled out in their requirements that they were going to start to "use race/ethnicity as one of the criteria for evaluating applicants" in 2006. True, Baylor is notorious for its quotas, but at least they have the dignity to encode their diversity program inside of a vague statement about how they have a diverse adcom and student body. When you spell out in an official communication that you're going to consider my skin color as a reason to admit or deny me, then you're telling me that I might be less welcome due to a reason that I can't control. That's not cool even if the Supreme Court says it's okay.

FWIW, this is a new UT SYSTEM policy. All UT schools (not just UT Medical Schools) now say this. I remember first seeing this from UTMB, actually, but it is a UT SYSTEM policy. For example:

http://www.som.utmb.edu/Med_School_Admissions.htm
http://www.utexas.edu/opa/news/03newsreleases/nr_200308/nr_admission030828.html

I agree with you that it is tacky, but you often see stupid stuff like this from state agencies/schools, and the decision to do it probably came from some UT System bureaucrat and had nothing to do with anyone at UTSW. As a private school, Baylor is able to sidestep such nonsense.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

over the course of the past few months, ive found it is very dangerous to generalize about how happy a student body is based on the 5-10 students you meet on an interview.

case in point, all the students i met at UTSW were actually much much happier than i expected, and i came in fully expecting to see people beat-down by the supposed competition at the school.

i think you'll find a very similar mix of "happiness levels" at most schools. thats just my opinion after the 6 or so campuses ive visited...

Completely agree with this. I bought into the whole UTSW students are so competitive, unfriendly, overworked, and miserable schpiel (most often promoted by students/faculty (YES, FACULTY TOO) at other Texas Medical Schools) until I actually interviewed there. I found the students giving the tours to be the most friendly and knowledgeable of ANY of my tour guides, and the students that I interacted with were friendly, very personable, and seemed genuinely happy to be going there. I'm not naive and don't believe that all students are like this, but I completely agree with you that you really need to take things that you both hear (from others) and see during isolated incidents (i.e. interviews) with a grain of salt. The reality of the situation is that the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle, and there will be competitive and non-competitive people whereever you go. It's difficult for me to prove this assertion is true, but it's also difficult for anyone to prove it's not. At least I have entropy on my side (competitive/non-competitive people will tend to distribute evenly/randomly amongst medical schools, and it's improbable that all of one type will migrate to specific schools.)

 

[Beckie1022]

Hi all,

So I'm a California gal who will probably be at UTSW in the fall. I'm shopping for housing from the Internet with my family. The medical center itself has its own zip code so I get no properties when I type in 75390 into the search engine. On the other hand, just searching for everything in the whole city of Dallas gives me over 2,000 hits. Zip code maps have been hard to find on the internet. Can anyone from the area give me some zip codes within 5 miles or so of the medical center? Thanks and hope to see some of y'all 😉 in the fall.

 

[baylormed]

Hi all,

So I'm a California gal who will probably be at UTSW in the fall. I'm shopping for housing from the Internet with my family. The medical center itself has its own zip code so I get no properties when I type in 75390 into the search engine. On the other hand, just searching for everything in the whole city of Dallas gives me over 2,000 hits. Zip code maps have been hard to find on the internet. Can anyone from the area give me some zip codes within 5 miles or so of the medical center? Thanks and hope to see some of y'all 😉 in the fall.

Go to our thread on the Allopathic Class Threads, over at the Allopathic (MD) forum. Look for the ~*~UT-Southwestern Class of 2011~*~ thread, and ask the question there. There is MedPark (school apt complex), and there are many more around the area, but I can't remember the names. I think someone there already mentioned names, so just search through the thread.

 

[EM_Rebuilder]

I still think that Texas Tech and Texas A&M are by far the best medical schools in Texas.

Pre-meds get all caught up in thinking that big = better, but unfortunately that is very wrong. Look at the lists of residencies from all the schools in Texas, you find that most everyone gets what ever field they want. It is true that Tech probably has a slightly higher percentage of PCPs, but that is because Tech caters to those people.

I would HATE to live in Dallas/Houston/Ft Worth for medical school. Can't imagine having to fight an hour of traffic to/from school every single day.

I am happy in my brick 3 bedroom, 2 bath, 2 car garage that is 5 mins from school.


Each school serves its own place, if you want a well known name, pay extra for rent, commute for hours every day, be number 10 in the back of rounds, then please go for the big name schools..... if you want to own a home at most 15 mins from school, and put in a chest tube as a MS1, then please look at your other options.

I wish someone would work out percentages, but I can assure you that every year Texas Tech has multiple people do derm, ortho, and rad oncology....

 

[myKuduSlewaZulu]

I guess it doesn't matter much now that our rank lists are in, but Ill add something. One of my SW interviewers was a dermatologist that had gone there. I asked her what I would be most disappointed with about the school and she said that there tended to be a lot of arrogance/machismo in some of the residency programs, and that this often led to medical students being treated harshly. A 4th year I emailed also said she felt there was likely more pressure at the school than at others (higher expectations perhaps?).

On the other hand, both 4th years I've talked to told me they thought the name did help them at their residency interviews.

 

[OncoCaP]

Completely agree with this. I bought into the whole UTSW students are so competitive, unfriendly, overworked, and miserable schpiel (most often promoted by students/faculty (YES, FACULTY TOO) at other Texas Medical Schools) until I actually interviewed there. I found the students giving the tours to be the most friendly and knowledgeable of ANY of my tour guides, and the students that I interacted with were friendly, very personable, and seemed genuinely happy to be going there. ...

Not only did I have a great impression of all but maybe one student (out of dozens) during my interview day, but I spoke with faculty and students the day before and had the same very positive experience. The place is great but it is big. If you are looking for a small-school experience, I would look elsewhere. The nice thing about a large class is that you can find people with similar interests and there tend to be more different kinds of opportunities. I would say that for those with research interests, it's a particularly noteworthy place, and those who aren't interested in research can focus on whatever other interests they have -- there are a lot of organizations and activities.

 

[sprinkibrio]

I guess it doesn't matter much now that our rank lists are in, but Ill add something. One of my SW interviewers was a dermatologist that had gone there. I asked her what I would be most disappointed with about the school and she said that there tended to be a lot of arrogance/machismo in some of the residency programs, and that this often led to medical students being treated harshly. A 4th year I emailed also said she felt there was likely more pressure at the school than at others (higher expectations perhaps?).

On the other hand, both 4th years I've talked to told me they thought the name did help them at their residency interviews.

Someone who has had a lot of interaction with the facutly at all the medical schools in Texas told me something similar. It's such a good school they can seem to get away with the elevated hierarchy and strictness. In Texas this may not be common, but in the United States as a whole, I think it is prevalent. Read What I Learned in Medical School: Personal Stories of Young Doctors by Kakakuwa, Rubashkin, and Herzig for some true stories of the crazy **** that goes on everywhere.

 

[jadrsun]

I still think that Texas Tech and Texas A&M are by far the best medical schools in Texas.

Pre-meds get all caught up in thinking that big = better, but unfortunately that is very wrong. Look at the lists of residencies from all the schools in Texas, you find that most everyone gets what ever field they want. It is true that Tech probably has a slightly higher percentage of PCPs, but that is because Tech caters to those people.

I would HATE to live in Dallas/Houston/Ft Worth for medical school. Can't imagine having to fight an hour of traffic to/from school every single day.

I am happy in my brick 3 bedroom, 2 bath, 2 car garage that is 5 mins from school.


Each school serves its own place, if you want a well known name, pay extra for rent, commute for hours every day, be number 10 in the back of rounds, then please go for the big name schools..... if you want to own a home at most 15 mins from school, and put in a chest tube as a MS1, then please look at your other options.

I wish someone would work out percentages, but I can assure you that every year Texas Tech has multiple people do derm, ortho, and rad oncology....

I had the fortune/misfortune whichever way you look at it to stay with a student in Lubbock back in August of 2006 for my interview at Tech. The student and his group of friends were literally miserable to be at Tech...they hated the school...regret ever going there....so that pretty much turned me off from ever ranking that school high...I ranked it lower than TCOM..and had nothing to do with DO vs. MD...TCOM actually is a pretty awesome school I am just no interested in Family Medicine...anyhow....after getting the real truth from students at Tech I realized that it was not a good school to go to...I went with an open mind and even told myself that location was not going to be a huge factor especially if the school was decent...well..Tech did not fit that criteria so I rank it the worst med school in Texas...the student are pretty much left on their own to try and pass the USMLE...the school gives information on courses for the USMLE that the student has to pay....the curriculum is under major reconstruction and the students that I met hated it....location sucks....so yeah..that summed it up for me...as for A&M...well...I had interviewed at 5 other schools that I ranked higher so I could care less....that's all.

 

[baylormed]

I had the fortune/misfortune whichever way you look at it to stay with a student in Lubbock back in August of 2006 for my interview at Tech. The student and his group of friends were literally miserable to be at Tech...they hated the school...regret ever going there....so that pretty much turned me off from ever ranking that school high...I ranked it lower than TCOM..and had nothing to do with DO vs. MD...TCOM actually is a pretty awesome school I am just no interested in Family Medicine...anyhow....after getting the real truth from students at Tech I realized that it was not a good school to go to...I went with an open mind and even told myself that location was not going to be a huge factor especially if the school was decent...well..Tech did not fit that criteria so I rank it the worst med school in Texas...the student are pretty much left on their own to try and pass the USMLE...the school gives information on courses for the USMLE that the student has to pay....the curriculum is under major reconstruction and the students that I met hated it....location sucks....so yeah..that summed it up for me...as for A&M...well...I had interviewed at 5 other schools that I ranked higher so I could care less....that's all.

That's true. I've mentioned many times before on SDN how the students there actually admitted during the A&Q session at the interview that they were there because no other school accepted them. Basically, most of them were there as an only choice, not because they wanted to be there. It didn't exactly give me an impression of happiness.

Basically, they tried to sell us the school by telling us it was relaxed, that you could go out very often, and that you could probably have more money in your pocket since Lubbock is cheaper in terms of living costs than other bigger cities in Texas. That was basically their only selling point.

Also, I was a little concerned with the display (or lack thereof) of professionalism by the staff. Ms. Linda Prado was great, but some of the staff members seemed underdressed and basically didn't give off a vibe of "seriousness" to the school. Again, I got the impression that it just wasn't that good of a place.

On the other hand, I've got nothing bad to say about the faculty I met, they were all very approachable and great.

Also, I was supposed to be staying with a student host but then decided to book a hotel because I needed to stay an extra night and I would get a special rate anyhow. I e-mailed my host and said that I would no longer be needing a place, but that thank you anyway. On said e-mailed, I also asked her if she could give me some info/insight about the school, any interesting points of discussion, etc. She replied saying she couldn't think of anything. I found that quite weird, maybe she just wasn't very interested or didn't feel like writing. But again, another bad impression.

When it comes down to it, a medical school is what you make of it, and every school produces quality physicians. I think it's just important to find a school at which you think you will be happy. I would attend Texas Tech any day and would be happy about it should I not have the opportunity to attend another school, and I'd go there over some other places in Texas as well (mainly due to location, closer to family, etc).