Why would anyone go into primary care nowadays?

[tdram]

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I expect to pay more money for this, in the form of taxes or insurance premiums or something. The money obviously has to come from somewhere.

And I'm OK with this. Whether I'm working as a physician has nothing to do with it. I'm OK with making less money for this purpose.

Well that's your choice. I'm not OK with it, and I know for a fact that it isn't the most efficient way to handle the problem, either.

 

[el_duderino]

Taxes aren't providing "a portion of my time". If your idea of charity is filling out an IRS form, then you really are a hypocrite.

So I expect you spend your free time on the volunteer fire brigade, volunteer police force, volunteer water department, etc....

Seriously. We already pay taxes to provide services to people, including health care. Medicaid is already expanding by large amounts in many states.

 

[DermViser]

I expect to pay more money for this, in the form of taxes or insurance premiums or something. The money obviously has to come from somewhere.

And I'm OK with this. Whether I'm working as a physician has nothing to do with it. I'm OK with making less money for this purpose.

"or something" (showing you know nothing about how medical economics work).

You better be ok with that. Your lender however, won't be willing to cut you the same slack when it comes to repaying him back for the money you owe at the rate you agreed to on your promissory note, unless you want the default hammer.

 

[PL198]

I already give medical services to people for free, in the form of income tax that I pay. I work a portion of my day for free ALREADY to provide things like health care and police protection to people.

LOL so you're being the prototypical liberal without actually doing anything directly yourself. You're forced to pay those taxes, and yet you advocate for giving to others so much, so why not do more of it yourself?

 

[el_duderino]

"or something" (showing you know nothing about how medical economics work).

You better be ok with that. Your lender however, won't be willing to cut you the same slack when it comes to repaying him back for the money you owe at the rate you agreed to on your promissory note, unless you want the default hammer.

I wouldn't expect or want my lender to cut me some slack with repayments. No idea how you think this applies to anything.

 

[tdram]

The only way to solve the healthcare problem is to have the government step out and let the free-market solve the problem. Entrepreneurs will find a way to get medical care as cheap as possible and to as many customers as possible. And they'll do it fast because they have plenty of competition for all these customers.

No, everyone won't get the "best" care, just like everyone can't drive a Ferrari. Sorry, that's just not how things work. But everyone will get care.

 

[el_duderino]

LOL so you're being the prototypical liberal without actually doing anything directly yourself. You're forced to pay those taxes, and yet you advocate for giving to others so much, so why not do more of it yourself?

I'd rather pay a professional police officer than expect everyone to spend a few hours a week walking the beat. Maybe that's just me.

I am also pretty positive Medicaid recipients would rather me pay for their physician through taxes than have me try to provide medical care, considering I've never been to medical school.

 

[DermViser]

So I expect you spend your free time on the volunteer fire brigade, volunteer police force, volunteer water department, etc....

Seriously. We already pay taxes to provide services to people, including health care. Medicaid is already expanding by large amounts in many states.

Do you not understand the difference between local and federal services? Do you not understand the difference between health care services and health insurance?

And who do you THINK exactly pays for Medicaid? Do you think you can add people to the rolls of Medicaid and not increase overall spending? You think as a provider, you can keep your lights on with only Medicaid patients?

 

[el_duderino]

The only way to solve the healthcare problem is to have the government step out and let the free-market solve the problem. Entrepreneurs will find a way to get medical care as cheap as possible and to as many customers as possible. And they'll do it fast because they have plenty of competition for all these customers.

No, everyone won't get the "best" care, just like everyone can't drive a Ferrari. Sorry, that's just not how things work. But everyone will get care.

Magical thinking at its finest.

 

[el_duderino]

Do you not understand the difference between local and federal services? Do you not understand the difference between health care services and health insurance?

And who do you THINK exactly pays for Medicaid? Do you think you can add people to the rolls of Medicaid and not increase overall spending? You think as a provider, you can keep your lights on with only Medicaid patients?

Of course it will cost more. You clearly aren't even reading my posts.

 

[tdram]

I'd rather pay a professional police officer than expect everyone to spend a few hours a week walking the beat. Maybe that's just me.

I am also pretty positive Medicaid recipients would rather me pay for their physician through taxes than have me try to provide medical care, considering I've never been to medical school.

How about you just provide your services for a price that your customers can afford, rather than expecting them to use Medicaid to pay for you? There's no reason we can't do this. Why are medical services just a fraction of the cost in other countries than they are here? Why is medical school so expensive here?

 

[tdram]

Magical thinking at its finest.

No, it's called logical and rational thinking. Your world where a bunch of corrupt politicians are entrusted to ensure everyone gets equal access to care is magical thinking to the extreme.

 

[DermViser]

I wouldn't expect or want my lender to cut me some slack with repayments. No idea how you think this applies to anything.

Bc in your attempt to get everyone on a Medicaid and exchange plan, the only way to make it work is to ratchet down the reimbursement of those medical services to YOU, since both of those are subsidized by the tax payers. Hence the amount of reimbursement will directly affect your paycheck and the amount of payments you'll be able to make on your student loans.

 

[el_duderino]

No, it's called logical and rational thinking. Your world where a bunch of corrupt politicians are entrusted to ensure everyone gets equal access to care is magical thinking to the extreme.

Logical thinking would be coming to these conclusions on the basis of evidence and logic. However, there is no reason to think it would ever work the way you describe. It certainly never has worked that way anywhere in history, anywhere in the world.

 

[PL198]

Of course it will cost more. You clearly aren't even reading my posts.

I pray the average college student abandons your way of thinking or America is doomed. Really easy to see. Look at America's plight over the last 20-30 years and tell me how the progressive movement has worked. Your views continue to project our country into irrelevancy and failure.

 

[el_duderino]

Bc in your attempt to get everyone on a Medicaid and exchange plan, the only way to make it work is to ratchet down the reimbursement of those medical services to YOU, since both of those are subsidized by the tax payers. Hence the amount of reimbursement will directly affect your paycheck and the amount of payments you'll be able to make on your student loans.

Your problem is that you're looking at it from the perspective of how much money you make as a physician. People naturally don't want to give up things they already have. No one wants a pay cut, no one wants less autonomy or authority.

I'm looking at it from a different perspective.

 

[DermViser]

I don't expect anyone to provide anything for free. Reading isn't really your strong suit, I see. I guess that's why so many of your arguments end with the equivalent of "you're a premed/student/resident/whatever and therefore wrong" 😉

You expect OTHER people to pay for it thru their taxes for your pet project. That's the point.

 

[tdram]

Logical thinking would be coming to these conclusions on the basis of evidence and logic. However, there is no reason to think it would ever work the way you describe. It certainly never has worked that way anywhere in history, anywhere in the world.

Maybe that's because it can't work the way you want it to. Sorry, but not everyone can get equal access to anything. Not everyone gets the best medical care, and some people will have to suffer and die. The idea that everyone is cared for is not the real world. That's a Disney fairytale. Don't you see that the healthcare system we have today is completely unsustainable? How's that for some evidence?

At least with my proposal, many more people would be helped than are today.

 

[el_duderino]

You expect OTHER people to pay for it thru their taxes for your pet project. That's the point.

1) They already do.

2) *I* already do. You already do, too.

3) I'm OK with that.

 

[el_duderino]

Maybe that's because it can't work the way you want it to. Sorry, but not everyone can get equal access to anything. Not everyone gets the best medical care, and some people will have to suffer and die. The idea that everyone is cared for is not the real world. That's a Disney fairytale. Don't you see that the healthcare system we have today is completely unsustainable? How's that for some evidence?

At least with my proposal, many more people would be helped than are today.

Indeed, the healthcare system we have is unsustainable. Indeed, not everyone can get equal care. Not everyone can get the best care.

But we CAN make sure that everyone gets DECENT care.

 

[tdram]

Indeed, the healthcare system we have is unsustainable. Indeed, not everyone can get equal care. Not everyone can get the best care.

But we CAN make sure that everyone gets DECENT care.

How do we do that? By doing more of the same? It's not working. It's time to try something different.

 

[el_duderino]

How do we do that? By doing more of the same? It's not working. It's time to try something different.

True statement.

 

[PL198]

Decent is so relative. The care the average person on medicaid gets in the US would be considered like 9.9/10 in a lot of other countries. All liberalism is, is talking a lot and doing nothing .

 

[DermViser]

Your problem is that you're looking at it from the perspective of how much money you make as a physician. People naturally don't want to give up things they already have. No one wants a pay cut, no one wants less autonomy or authority.

I'm looking at it from a different perspective.

No, I'm actually not. I'm looking at it based on what a hypocrite you are. You believe that paying taxes means that you've "given" time. But the only way your pet project works is that EVERYONE ELSE is forced to fund it thru their taxes. Newsflash, you haven't given squat. There is only one way you can cover everyone --- increase taxes or decrease the reimbursement to those services. In your attempt to feel good about yourself as people will be covered with Obamacare exchange plans or Medicaid, what you don't get is that having health insurance doesn't mean you actually get health care. But it makes you feel good and warm inside, so I guess it is worth it.

You are more than happy to do your part in your practice to take only Medicaid and Obamacare exchange plan patients. Your practice manager will resign in a week.

 

[DermViser]

Decent is so relative. The care the average person on medicaid gets in the US would be considered like 9.9/10 in a lot of other countries. All liberalism is, is talking a lot and doing nothing .

I'm sure his solution is to FORCE doctors to take Obamacare exchange plans and Medicaid. After all, it's for the common good.

 

[DermViser]

1) They already do.

2) *I* already do. You already do, too.

3) I'm OK with that.

Of course you're ok with that and increasing taxes even more. Par for the course for liberal hypocrites - they're magnanimous only with OTHER people's money.

 

[tdram]

Decent is so relative. The care the average person on medicaid gets in the US would be considered like 9.9/10 in a lot of other countries. All liberalism is, is talking a lot and doing nothing .

The biggest liberal fallacy is that it is somehow society's responsibility to ensure everyone gets medical care (or anything for that matter). It's not. It's that individual's responsibility to ensure he or she does what it takes to survive.

Not my problem that everyone can't get decent care. My only problem is ensuring that I get decent care. Be responsible for yourself.

 

[el_duderino]

No, I'm actually not. I'm looking at it based on what a hypocrite you are. You believe that paying taxes means that you've "given" time. But the only way your pet project works is that EVERYONE ELSE is forced to fund it thru their taxes. Newsflash, you haven't given squat. There is only one way you can cover everyone --- increase taxes or decrease the reimbursement to those services. In your attempt to feel good about yourself as people will be covered with Obamacare exchange plans or Medicaid, what you don't get is that having health insurance doesn't mean you actually get health care. But it makes you feel good and warm inside, so I guess it is worth it.

You are more than happy to do your part in your practice to take only Medicaid and Obamacare exchange plan patients. Your practice manager will resign in a week.

I don't get why you treat increasing taxes or decreasing physician compensation as the end of the world.

I guess it's because it threatens you personally. Well... boo hoo.

I don't know what the best way to make sure everyone gets basic medical care is. But I know it's not crossing our fingers and expecting charities to do it. I also know it'll involve the money coming from somewhere.

 

[DermViser]

Decent is so relative. The care the average person on medicaid gets in the US would be considered like 9.9/10 in a lot of other countries. All liberalism is, is talking a lot and doing nothing .

If a provider/hospital, etc. don't take your insurance plan - no one is getting any care. But that isn't @jonnythan's goal. It's only to make him sleep better at night knowing everyone has an insurance card - regardless if it's actually accepted.

 

[el_duderino]

Of course you're ok with that and increasing taxes even more. Par for the course for liberal hypocrites - they're magnanimous only with OTHER people's money.

It's my money too. I pay taxes yanno.

 

[PL198]

I suppose next you're going to tell us the one of the benefits of obamacare was that 3 % more people now have health insurance. Because apparently mandating people to have health insurance and then seeing marginal increases in the amount of people that do is somehow impressive and reflects successful legislation. Next on at news at five : Local suburb requires citizens to purchase baskets to use in grocery stores, basket sales rise 30 %. See guys! We are selling more baskets! Yay!

 

[el_duderino]

If a provider/hospital, etc. don't take your insurance plan - no one is getting any care. But that isn't @jonnythan's goal. It's only to make him sleep better at night knowing everyone has an insurance card - regardless if it's actually accepted.

You can frame it however you want. What I want is for people to get medical care. My goal isn't to delude myself into thinking they do when they actually don't.

 

[DermViser]

I don't get why you treat increasing taxes or decreasing physician compensation as the end of the world.

I guess it's because it threatens you personally. Well... boo hoo.

I don't know what the best way to make sure everyone gets basic medical care is. But I know it's not crossing our fingers and expecting charities to do it. I also know it'll involve the money coming from somewhere.

No, has nothing to do with compensation. It's bc your plan doesn't work, since you don't even realize how medical economics and how medical services given works. Hence your throw spaghetti and see what sticks to the wall approach.

 

[el_duderino]

I suppose next you're going to tell us the one of the benefits of obamacare was that 3 % more people now have health insurance. Because apparently mandating people to have health insurance and then seeing marginal increases in the amount of people that do is somehow impressive and reflects successful legislation. Next on at news at five : Local suburb requires citizens to purchase baskets to use in grocery stores, basket sales rise 30 %. See guys! We are selling more baskets! Yay!

I'm not a big fan of the ACA. It doesn't seem especially effective.

What I want is for people to actually get medical care and not suffer and die.

 

[PL198]

It's my money too. I pay taxes yanno.

Ok? Are we talking to a wall? Nothing about the current system is sustainable. Therefore, for it to be sustainable, either you have to cut costs or raise income to the system(more taxes). You want to somehow expand the capabilities without changing taxes? All you keep saying is a repeat of " I pay taxes," Like ok cool story. What does that mean? Your system is literally running the country dry and unless you increase taxes, it's gonna go broke.

 

[tdram]

You can frame it however you want. What I want is for people to get medical care. My goal isn't to delude myself into thinking they do when they actually don't.

Why don't you start by defining what exactly it is that you want them to get? Because "decent medical care" is incredibly vague.

 

[DermViser]

You can frame it however you want. What I want is for people to get medical care. My goal isn't to delude myself into thinking they do when they actually don't.

Apparently you have deluded yourself into thinking that as you somehow believe that more people on Medicaid or buying Obamacare exchange plans will get them the healthcare that they need. It shows a complete lack of knowledge about how insurance and the exchange of medical services work, on your part.

 

[tdram]

I'm not a big fan of the ACA. It doesn't seem especially effective.

What I want is for people to actually get medical care and not suffer and die.

Meaning what? How do you plan to pay for it? Where's the money coming from? Healthcare costs keep going up and up. Sure you can keep increasing taxes to cover it, but eventually even the rich will be out of cash to pay. So what are you gonna do then? How will you get everyone medical care when there is no medical care to be given anymore?

 

[el_duderino]

No, has nothing to do with compensation. It's bc your plan doesn't work, since you don't even realize how medical economics and how medical services given works. Hence your throw spaghetti and see what sticks to the wall approach.

Ok? Are we talking to a wall? Nothing about the current system is sustainable. Therefore, for it to be sustainable, either you have to cut costs or raise income to the system(more taxes). You want to somehow expand the capabilities without changing taxes? All you keep saying is a repeat of " I pay taxes," Like ok cool story. What does that mean? Your system is literally running the country dry and unless you increase taxes, it's gonna go broke.

I already mentioned higher taxes. Multiple times.

I swear people can't read when they see something they don't want to see.

 

[DermViser]

Ok? Are we talking to a wall? Nothing about the current system is sustainable. Therefore, for it to be sustainable, either you have to cut costs or raise income to the system(more taxes). You want to somehow expand the capabilities without changing taxes? All you keep saying is a repeat of " I pay taxes," Like ok cool story. What does that mean? Your system is literally running the country dry and unless you increase taxes, it's gonna go broke.

What's sad is that his charity contribution to society is bc he pays taxes. Then he washes his hands clean of it.

 

[DermViser]

I already mentioned higher taxes. Multiple times.

I swear people can't read when they see something they don't want to see.

YOU think HIGHER taxes is the solution to making it sustainable? Really? 😆😆😆

 

[PL198]

I don't want people to suffer and die either, but what I want much more if for people to not be forced to pay into joke services that 9/10 are abused by lazy people. Totally willing to help the 1/10 dude busting his a** to make it and encounters a billion problems along the way, not so much willing to help the people who sit on their a** all day, do nothing and then expect me to pay for it. Oh and the cherry on top, is these people are the most unhealthy. So not only do I have to pay for them to sit on their a** all day, I have to pay for the health complications that result from doing so.

 

[tdram]

I already mentioned higher taxes. Multiple times.

I swear people can't read when they see something they don't want to see.

Higher taxes to what end? You're just gonna keep raising taxes until everyone is driven into poverty? Why don't you propose a solution that will stop the system from hemmorhaging money instead of just plugging the bigger hole with more money.

 

[el_duderino]

Time for me to go. Bottom line is that it's possible to make sure all Americans can get decent health care. Letting people suffer and die because they can't afford health care is barbaric and pathetic, and thinking a truly free market would magically solve the issue is idiocy.

 

[DermViser]

I'm not a big fan of the ACA. It doesn't seem especially effective.

What I want is for people to actually get medical care and not suffer and die.

Again, how do you propose that this happens?!!? Paying higher taxes is not a "solution". It's a finance modality.

 

[tdram]

Time for me to go. Bottom line is that it's possible to make sure all Americans can get decent health care. Letting people suffer and die because they can't afford health care is barbaric and pathetic, and thinking a truly free market would magically solve the issue is idiocy.

A truly free market will go much further to doing what you want, providing medical care to more people, by making medical services far more affordable, than a system controlled by a central government run by corrupt politicians which artificially drives prices up and makes it harder for people to afford care.

 

[DermViser]

Higher taxes to what end? You're just gonna keep raising taxes until everyone is driven into poverty? Why don't you propose a solution that will stop the system from hemmorhaging money instead of just plugging the bigger hole with more money.

Time for me to go. Bottom line is that it's possible to make sure all Americans can get decent health care. Letting people suffer and die because they can't afford health care is barbaric and pathetic, and thinking a truly free market would magically solve the issue is idiocy.

Yes, you should go, bc you're losing the discussion since you only have catch phrases to defend your argument.

 

[PL198]

Time for me to go. Bottom line is that it's possible to make sure all Americans can get decent health care. Letting people suffer and die because they can't afford health care is barbaric and pathetic, and thinking a truly free market would magically solve the issue is idiocy.

You just keep repeating arbitrary statements. Decent care? I'd say being able to go to the ER and have them treat you for sure with no money is pretty darn decent. Health isn't some special commodity. If I can't afford a new car, I don't get a new car. I don't somehow deserve a new kidney any more than a deserve a new corvette. I don't understand why there is this magical sentiment that human life is somehow intrinsically valuable enough to the point where we have to throw the whole fate of the country under the bus to save lives. Sorry, not gonna happen.

 

[Beargryllz]

Can we just eat the poor people? I've been doing some soul searching and I really don't see myself taking a lot of charity cases. But few of those will die in such a way that renders the flesh inedible, especially for my dogs.

And I'm definitely done with taxes. I have a moral objection to those and I bet I can tie it into some religion somewhere and then practice that religion.

 

[PL198]

Can we just eat the poor people? I've been doing some soul searching and I really don't see myself taking a lot of charity cases. But few of those will die in such a way that renders the flesh inedible, especially for my dogs.

And I'm definitely done with taxes. I have a moral objection to those and I bet I can tie it into some religion somewhere and then practice that religion.

Let them eat cake.