Why you (probably) won’t “live like a student”

[Ivy.ch]

In an era of insane dental school debt, I see many students planning to “live like a student” when they start working in order to save money and aggressively pay off their student debt. It’s sounds nice in theory. But I’m here to pop your bubble and explain why it probably won’t happen.

• Any desirable safe place to live costs an insane amount of money. If you are going to rent, it builds no equity over time. Think you’re smart by getting a mortgage? The way interest rates are going, you’ll be probably be paying more than twice the cost of the real estate by the time it’s paid off in 30 years. Finding roommates is easy when you’re 22. No one safe, sober, and not crazy wants to be your roommate in their late 20s.
• You will need a dependable car when you start working. And you will probably need to work at more than 1 office starting as an associate. Your rusty hand-me-down is not going to cut it through the snow. Leasing is an atrocious financial decision, and dependable cars start at like $12,000 nowadays.
• All the free stuff you had during University now costs money. Gym membership. Books. WiFi. Social hangouts. Sports. You have to pay for all of that now.
• You will want to start dating. Dating someone financial responsible - nice! Dating someone who is cheap - not nice! No one wants to date someone who is cheap all the time. Dating usually means eating out, or seeing a movie, or getting a drink - all $$$. Especially if you put doctor in your Hinge profile. And ladies, the market out there nowadays is trash - there’s a good chance you’re going to be dating men who make less than you. And if you’re thinking of marrying a doctor, multiple your debt x2 and pray they don’t want to be a medicine doctor.
• Your friends are going to be getting married. Friends from home, college, and dental school. You’ll need to fly all over the country, buy outfits, buy gifts, buy hotels. It’s part of being a good friend. And your girlfriend is going to start bugging you to get married soon. Average wedding cost an average of 33k last year, but your girlfriend doesn’t think you’re average. Oh, and she wants a baby too!
• Your parents are going to get old. Depending on your culture, you may be on the hook to support them, especially since you’re a „doctor“ now. But even if not, you’ll want to spend more time with them, go on trips with them, etc. They’re getting older, and it’s not so easy for them to come to you. Then you’ll realize YOU are getting older, and those cool trips you want won’t be possible when you’re 45 with kids.
• Taxes. Federal income tax ~29%, states like NY have ~6% state income tax, city income taxes (WTF!?), FICA taxes, insane property taxes, sales taxes, death tax, health insurance (average was 24k for a family in 2023). Dude I’ll be honest, I’m paying taxes for things I don’t even know what they mean. Any financial person will also tell you that you should be maxing your IRA every year (7k), and you should probably be contributing to your 401k and HSA. There’s not much money left at the end of the day.
• Dentist income hasn’t budged for what… like 2 decades or something? Meanwhile, there’s inflation, the fed’s favorite tool for keeping you poor.

I’d be interested to hear from other dentists what costs of life surprised you as you made your way from student -> resident -> dentist.

BOTTOM-LINE: Saying you’ll „live like a student“ to stash away massive amounts of cash to pay down your debt is unrealistic for most people. In the real world, it’s not so easy.

CONCLUSION: Go to the cheapest school.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[850csi]

Talk about a cliffhanger...

 

[Kingse]

Is public dental school cheaper than private?

 

[Saddleshoes]

It is my observation that students are living better than I (A long time practicing dentist) do, presently.


...Now Get Off My Lawn!

 

[throwawayacc2]

I wouldn't mind living with parents into my late 20s- early 30s, and luckily they're seriously considering to move to a cheaper state. Even now, I have cash in savings and stocks, even if it'll only make a 3% difference.
My biggest fear is growing old and still not having kids. Being 35 and still single since covid.

 

[Ryxndek]

Is public dental school cheaper than private?

Usually yes

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I threw this in the pre-vet forum. I'm not sure that the chart really does a great job, but...

Chart of the month: Connecting the cost of living and salary

The cost-of-living index is a rich data source to inform decisions about where we want to work and live. A new tool makes comparisons easy.

www.avma.org

 

[type1doc]

I know this isn’t the point, but what do you have against medical doctors?!

 

[Ivy.ch]

I know this isn’t the point, but what do you have against medical doctors?!

Medicine doctors - internal medicine, family medicine, pediatrics, etc. - are horribly underpaid for the amazing services they provide to society. Their salaries are sad compared to the debt they take on. They deserve so much more.

 

[D1Bound]

@Ivy.ch What a nice dentistry red pill you delivered.

 

[throwawayacc2]

Mind I also ask: Why hasn't dental income budged in decades? To be more specific, are you referring to entry level dental and/or associate dental salaries?

 

[D1Bound]

Mind I also ask: Why hasn't dental income budged in decades? To be more specific, are you referring to entry level dental and/or associate dental salaries?

Insurances refuses to raise rates and pay providers

 

[Let me out!]

I would add something to the list:

The majority of influence "financial advisors" out there should be heard with care. Take Dave Ramsay for example. He advises people with debt issues to sell the car first like we can all walk to work. He has a history of saying incorrect information about the medical and dental fields. He advises no credit card. No credit score/history. Etc. Not saying he's wrong about everything. He's not for everyone.

Real life starts. Plan it accordingly.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

FWIW, many of us really like the White Coat Investor. Here's our Finances and Investments forum:

Finance and Investment

Discussion of everything other than financial aid. Includes investment, mortgage, retirement, banking, etc. Co-hosted with The White Coat Investor

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[charlestweed]

I would add something to the list:

The majority of influence "financial advisors" out there should be heard with care. Take Dave Ramsay for example. He advises people with debt issues to sell the car first like we can all walk to work. He has a history of saying incorrect information about the medical and dental fields. He advises no credit card. No credit score/history. Etc. Not saying he's wrong about everything. He's not for everyone.

Real life starts. Plan it accordingly.

Dave Ramsey’s way to attack the debt is behavioral modification. To him, “money is not just math, it’s behavior.” Forget about investing when you’re broke. Forget about taking vacations (so you can post your pictures on facebook and instagram) when you’re broke. Work as hard as you can (get a 2nd job if you have to), spend less (rice and beans), and pay off debt ASAP. And when you're deb free, you can start investing. These are Ramsey's advice. Of course, it makes more mathematical sense to pay off the debt with high interest first (instead of using his debt snowball method)…or start investing money in high yield stock first and pay off student loans that has lower interest rates later. The problem is most people tend to spend whenever they receive their paycheck. That’s why we have over $1 trillion in credit card debt in this country. His audiences are the people who are drowning in debt and can’t find any other way to get out of debt. Many of the people who seek advice from him are dentists and doctors. But if you’re a high income earner and have extra cash to put away every month, you don’t need to follow his advice. In constrast to Dave's advice, I’ve leased cars (but I don’t plan to do this anymore) and I am not in financial trouble because of this action . I also use credit cards so I can get 2.6% cash back on my BofA card, 3% cashback on all grocery shopping and dinning on my Capital One card, and 5% cashback on all Amazon and Whole Food purchases on my Amazon prime card.

The opposite way is to delay the loan repayments (pay the minimum) and use the money to invest in stock (or in real estate) and hopefully the return of your investments beats the interest rates that you have to pay on your student loans and other loans. I believe the current student loan interest rates are between 7-8%, am I correct? Well, with either option (Dave ramsey’s way to pay off debt now vs invest now and pay off debt later option), you have to force yourself to stop spending money on stupid things….and live with very a small budget (aka living like a student). The more sacrifice you make now, the less you will have to work later in your life and the sooner you will be able to retire.

 

[charlestweed]

Mind I also ask: Why hasn't dental income budged in decades? To be more specific, are you referring to entry level dental and/or associate dental salaries?

Dentists’ income depends on the clinical experience and the relationship they have with their patients. Most new grads are slow and only make around $150k or less. But with more experience, faster speed, and less prone to making clinical errors, they get paid more because they can see more patients (and thus produce more) with the same amount of time. And when they open their own office, their income will not be limited to 30-35% of the production that their previous associate jobs paid them. They can make more if they work hard and know how to keep the overhead as low as possible.

You can still make a decent income (even when the insurance companies refuse to pay the dentists more) if you work hard and are good and fast. Many of my OS friends accept medicaid because they can take out teeth quickly.

 

[Let me out!]

Dave Ramsey’s way to attack the debt is behavioral modification. To him, “money is not just math, it’s behavior.” Forget about investing when you’re broke. Forget about taking vacations (so you can post your pictures on facebook and instagram) when you’re broke. Work as hard as you can (get a 2nd job if you have to), spend less (rice and beans), and pay off debt ASAP. And when you're deb free, you can start investing. These are Ramsey's advice. Of course, it makes more mathematical sense to pay off the debt with high interest first (instead of using his debt snowball method)…or start investing money in high yield stock first and pay off student loans that has lower interest rates later. The problem is most people tend to spend whenever they receive their paycheck. That’s why we have over $1 trillion in credit card debt in this country. His audiences are the people who are drowning in debt and can’t find any other way to get out of debt. Many of the people who seek advice from him are dentists and doctors. But if you’re a high income earner and have extra cash to put away every month, you don’t need to follow his advice. In constrast to Dave's advice, I’ve leased cars (but I don’t plan to do this anymore) and I am not in financial trouble because of this action . I also use credit cards so I can get 2.6% cash back on my BofA card, 3% cashback on all grocery shopping and dinning on my Capital One card, and 5% cashback on all Amazon and Whole Food purchases on my Amazon prime card.

The opposite way is to delay the loan repayments (pay the minimum) and use the money to invest in stock (or in real estate) and hopefully the return of your investments beat the interest rates that you have to pay on your student loans and other loans. I believe the current student loan interest rates are between 7-8%, am I correct? Well, with either option (Dave ramsey’s way to pay off debt now vs invest now and pay off debt later option), you have to force yourself to stop spending money on stupid things….and live with very a small budget (aka living like a student). The more sacrifice you make now, the less you will have to work later in your life and the sooner you will be able to retire.

I agree, and this is exactly my point. He should be heard with care. It's not for everyone.

I said it because people tend to believe that his words are THE ONLY WAY to go about attacking debts.

 

[HockeyDocOMFS]

To argue against the aggressive loan payment route, it is important to remember that federal loans are discharged if you were to pass away. For those who have families of their own, if you were to pay off your loans aggressively and then sadly pass, you would be leaving your family with nothing. It might be a better option to make the minimum payments while saving/investing your income - it may be a safer option to make sure your family is financially okay if something terrible were to happen. This is just something to keep in mind and lots to think about.

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

In an era of insane dental school debt, I see many students planning to “live like a student” when they start working in order to save money and aggressively pay off their student debt. It’s sounds nice in theory. But I’m here to pop your bubble and explain why it probably won’t happen.

• Any desirable safe place to live costs an insane amount of money. If you are going to rent, it builds no equity over time. Think you’re smart by getting a mortgage? The way interest rates are going, you’ll be probably be paying more than twice the cost of the real estate by the time it’s paid off in 30 years. Finding roommates is easy when you’re 22. No one safe, sober, and not crazy wants to be your roommate in their late 20s.
• You will need a dependable car when you start working. And you will probably need to work at more than 1 office starting as an associate. Your rusty hand-me-down is not going to cut it through the snow. Leasing is an atrocious financial decision, and dependable cars start at like $12,000 nowadays.
• All the free stuff you had during University now costs money. Gym membership. Books. WiFi. Social hangouts. Sports. You have to pay for all of that now.
• You will want to start dating. Dating someone financial responsible - nice! Dating someone who is cheap - not nice! No one wants to date someone who is cheap all the time. Dating usually means eating out, or seeing a movie, or getting a drink - all $$$. Especially if you put doctor in your Hinge profile. And ladies, the market out there nowadays is trash - there’s a good chance you’re going to be dating men who make less than you. And if you’re thinking of marrying a doctor, multiple your debt x2 and pray they don’t want to be a medicine doctor.
• Your friends are going to be getting married. Friends from home, college, and dental school. You’ll need to fly all over the country, buy outfits, buy gifts, buy hotels. It’s part of being a good friend. And your girlfriend is going to start bugging you to get married soon. Average wedding cost an average of 33k last year, but your girlfriend doesn’t think you’re average. Oh, and she wants a baby too!
• Your parents are going to get old. Depending on your culture, you may be on the hook to support them, especially since you’re a „doctor“ now. But even if not, you’ll want to spend more time with them, go on trips with them, etc. They’re getting older, and it’s not so easy for them to come to you. Then you’ll realize YOU are getting older, and those cool trips you want won’t be possible when you’re 45 with kids.
• Taxes. Federal income tax ~29%, states like NY have ~6% state income tax, city income taxes (WTF!?), FICA taxes, insane property taxes, sales taxes, death tax, health insurance (average was 24k for a family in 2023). Dude I’ll be honest, I’m paying taxes for things I don’t even know what they mean. Any financial person will also tell you that you should be maxing your IRA every year (7k), and you should probably be contributing to your 401k and HSA. There’s not much money left at the end of the day.
• Dentist income hasn’t budged for what… like 2 decades or something? Meanwhile, there’s inflation, the fed’s favorite tool for keeping you poor.

I’d be interested to hear from other dentists what costs of life surprised you as you made your way from student -> resident -> dentist.

BOTTOM-LINE: Saying you’ll „live like a student“ to stash away massive amounts of cash to pay down your debt is unrealistic for most people. In the real world, it’s not so easy.

CONCLUSION: Go to the cheapest school.

All of this is very true! If you’re a pre-dent it is going to take serious discipline to live like a student as you go through dental school and beyond. Your peers will spend money they don’t really have to live a life they can’t really afford. Once you’re a dentist you’ll have access to a great income. You have to be disciplined not to blow it all.

I’d recommend doing what I did and live at home during dental school if possible. I commuted 3 hours per day during dental school. Live at home after dental school if possible. I paid off all of my loans in just over a year and now invest most of my income. I drive a used 2014 Honda CRV. Somehow, my girlfriend still wants to date me. The future in dentistry can be very bright if you can remain disciplined and make smart financial decisions.

 

[Thehighwind87]

All of this is very true! If you’re a pre-dent it is going to take serious discipline to live like a student as you go through dental school and beyond. Your peers will spend money they don’t really have to live a life they can’t really afford. Once you’re a dentist you’ll have access to a great income. You have to be disciplined not to blow it all.

I’d recommend doing what I did and live at home during dental school if possible. I commuted 3 hours per day during dental school. Live at home after dental school if possible. I paid off all of my loans in just over a year and now invest most of my income. I drive a used 2014 Honda CRV. Somehow, my girlfriend still wants to date me. The future in dentistry can be very bright if you can remain disciplined and make smart financial decisions.

You can't expect a pre-dental or even dental students to understand what it means to live like a student. Living like a student for the majority of people has been- dad gives you a replenishment into your checking account- dad pays off your credit card- and money is given without any questions from loan programs.

Living like a student when I was in school was legit free ride. Call up my parents to replenish my account. Login the next month and see my credit card bill has been paid off. Make sure to apply for the loans before closing and pay the school.

The mantra "live like a student" is a joke. Majority of dental students medical students whatever students are riding on their parents checking accounts, and free money from student loans. You know how many of my classmates went "clubbing" on friday nights "living like a student" in their 2-3k studios in the city? ALOT OF THEM. I always shook my head when my class went on some dental trip to indonesia or bali...they literally paid to fly out (when they are 200-300k in debt) to go and do some dentistry...while posting pics on instagram at the beach drinking margaritas. Yeah live like a student lol....

Whatever, its a reality check when people graduate- get booted from their parents checking account, get booted from their parents health insurance and have to start paying for everything.

Dental school for me- and majority of my classmates were some of the best years because you literally didn't have to live like a student. Everything was paid for. The commentary "live like a student" for the majority of people is a joke.

 

[throwawayacc2]

You can't expect a pre-dental or even dental students to understand what it means to live like a student. Living like a student for the majority of people has been- dad gives you a replenishment into your checking account- dad pays off your credit card- and money is given without any questions from loan programs.

or just that dad gives you a credit card for food and gas.

 

[850csi]

In an era of insane dental school debt, I see many students planning to “live like a student” when they start working in order to save money and aggressively pay off their student debt. It’s sounds nice in theory. But I’m here to pop your bubble and explain why it probably won’t happen.

• Any desirable safe place to live costs an insane amount of money. If you are going to rent, it builds no equity over time. Think you’re smart by getting a mortgage? The way interest rates are going, you’ll be probably be paying more than twice the cost of the real estate by the time it’s paid off in 30 years. Finding roommates is easy when you’re 22. No one safe, sober, and not crazy wants to be your roommate in their late 20s.
• You will need a dependable car when you start working. And you will probably need to work at more than 1 office starting as an associate. Your rusty hand-me-down is not going to cut it through the snow. Leasing is an atrocious financial decision, and dependable cars start at like $12,000 nowadays.
• All the free stuff you had during University now costs money. Gym membership. Books. WiFi. Social hangouts. Sports. You have to pay for all of that now.
• You will want to start dating. Dating someone financial responsible - nice! Dating someone who is cheap - not nice! No one wants to date someone who is cheap all the time. Dating usually means eating out, or seeing a movie, or getting a drink - all $$$. Especially if you put doctor in your Hinge profile. And ladies, the market out there nowadays is trash - there’s a good chance you’re going to be dating men who make less than you. And if you’re thinking of marrying a doctor, multiple your debt x2 and pray they don’t want to be a medicine doctor.
• Your friends are going to be getting married. Friends from home, college, and dental school. You’ll need to fly all over the country, buy outfits, buy gifts, buy hotels. It’s part of being a good friend. And your girlfriend is going to start bugging you to get married soon. Average wedding cost an average of 33k last year, but your girlfriend doesn’t think you’re average. Oh, and she wants a baby too!
• Your parents are going to get old. Depending on your culture, you may be on the hook to support them, especially since you’re a „doctor“ now. But even if not, you’ll want to spend more time with them, go on trips with them, etc. They’re getting older, and it’s not so easy for them to come to you. Then you’ll realize YOU are getting older, and those cool trips you want won’t be possible when you’re 45 with kids.
• Taxes. Federal income tax ~29%, states like NY have ~6% state income tax, city income taxes (WTF!?), FICA taxes, insane property taxes, sales taxes, death tax, health insurance (average was 24k for a family in 2023). Dude I’ll be honest, I’m paying taxes for things I don’t even know what they mean. Any financial person will also tell you that you should be maxing your IRA every year (7k), and you should probably be contributing to your 401k and HSA. There’s not much money left at the end of the day.
• Dentist income hasn’t budged for what… like 2 decades or something? Meanwhile, there’s inflation, the fed’s favorite tool for keeping you poor.

I’d be interested to hear from other dentists what costs of life surprised you as you made your way from student -> resident -> dentist.

BOTTOM-LINE: Saying you’ll „live like a student“ to stash away massive amounts of cash to pay down your debt is unrealistic for most people. In the real world, it’s not so easy.

CONCLUSION: Go to the cheapest school.

Cliffhanger was worth the wait--great post. I haven't seen many posts take an approach this nuanced to postgrad life and debt repayment. Almost always it's the "live spartan, spend nothing" attitude with no further elaboration.

I met the dentist I shadowed at the grand opening of a local coffee shop. One thing I've noticed is that on the weekends he often goes out to places/events. Besides doing it for his own enjoyment, he has found patients this way (I've been with him twice where this happened). Would you recommend certain activities for the chance of networking/incidentally finding new patients?

 

[charlestweed]

You can't expect a pre-dental or even dental students to understand what it means to live like a student. Living like a student for the majority of people has been- dad gives you a replenishment into your checking account- dad pays off your credit card- and money is given without any questions from loan programs.

Living like a student when I was in school was legit free ride. Call up my parents to replenish my account. Login the next month and see my credit card bill has been paid off. Make sure to apply for the loans before closing and pay the school.

The mantra "live like a student" is a joke. Majority of dental students medical students whatever students are riding on their parents checking accounts, and free money from student loans. You know how many of my classmates went "clubbing" on friday nights "living like a student" in their 2-3k studios in the city? ALOT OF THEM. I always shook my head when my class went on some dental trip to indonesia or bali...they literally paid to fly out (when they are 200-300k in debt) to go and do some dentistry...while posting pics on instagram at the beach drinking margaritas. Yeah live like a student lol....

Very true! And we all should be appreciative of what our parents have done for us.......respect them and love them more.

Whatever, its a reality check when people graduate- get booted from their parents checking account, get booted from their parents health insurance and have to start paying for everything.

One can only learn when he/she has to pay for everything with his/her hard earned money.

Dental school for me- and majority of my classmates were some of the best years because you literally didn't have to live like a student. Everything was paid for. The commentary "live like a student" for the majority of people is a joke.

I felt the same way. I’ve never regarded spending 4yrs of dental school + 2 yrs of ortho residency as making a sacrifice. To me, education is a form of financial investment…. I chose to go to school so I could earn more money. I had had great time receiving my education at my schools. My dad (despite being very poor) helped pay for my car insurance. I didn’t need to spend much on food because I drove home every week and my mom packed food for me to bring back to my apartment. I used the student loan money to travel (for ortho lectures and meetings) with my co-residents. Unlike the engineering guys who started working at 22-23, I didn’t need to worry about working and paying the bills when I was at their age.

 

[850csi]

Very true! And we all should be appreciative of what our parents have done for us.......respect them and love them more.


One can only learn when he/she has to pay for everything with his/her hard earned money.


I felt the same way. I’ve never regarded spending 4yrs of dental school + 2 yrs of ortho residency as making a sacrifice. To me, education is a form of financial investment…. I chose to go to school so I could earn more money. I had had great time receiving my education at my schools. My dad (despite being very poor) helped pay for my car insurance. I didn’t need to spend much on food because I drove home every week and my mom packed food for me to bring back to my apartment. I used the student loan money to travel (for ortho lectures and meetings) with my co-residents. Unlike the engineering guys who started working at 22-23, I didn’t need to worry about working and paying the bills when I was at their age.

Did you take out the max allowed student loans and attend lectures with what you had left over? Or did you budget specifically for the graduate lectures/meetings?

 

[charlestweed]

Did you take out the max allowed student loans and attend lectures with what you had left over? Or did you budget specifically for the graduate lectures/meetings?

I maxed out because I needed the money for my postgrad residency applications, hotel and and flights (for school interviews). I didn’t plan to work 6 days/wk after graduation. But then I realized that there were so many expenses that I had to pay…..couldn't resist buying nice things like a house and cars. So working more days was the only way for me to increase my income.

 

[850csi]

I maxed out because I needed the money for my postgrad residency applications, hotel and and flights (for school interviews). I didn’t plan to work 6 days/wk after graduation. But then I realized that there were so many expenses that I had to pay…..couldn't resist buying nice things like a house and cars. So working more days was the only way for me to increase my income.

I see. When did you decide you were going to specialize? Did you max loans from 1st semester or did you only begin once you decided to specialize?

 

[charlestweed]

I see. When did you decide you were going to specialize? Did you max loans from 1st semester or did you only begin once you decided to specialize?

I decided to specialize at the end of my second year.....when I realized that my board part I score (back then they still looked at the board score) was competitive enough for ortho. I had always tried to minimize the amount of loan. Whenever I felt I didn't have enough to live for the rest of the quarter, I went to my school's financial aid advisor's office and asked her to let me take out additional loan money.

 

[2TH MVR]

Good read @Ivy.ch . Pretty good summary. I would also add any future divorce as a financial death blow. I was fortunate to dodge that bullet. What I will add is hopefully you enjoy what you do for a living. So you can continue to work. Earn plenty of money and enjoy life.

 

[askadds]

I saw this on DT...Averages dont lie. On average we saw 5% increase in salaries from 2010 to 2022. If you ignore data in your decision making, you're a fool that everyone else is taking advantage of. Don't listen to super hero docs and think you can easily replicate.

 

[Thehighwind87]

I saw this on DT...Averages dont lie. On average we saw 5% increase in salaries from 2010 to 2022. If you ignore data in your decision making, you're a fool that everyone else is taking advantage of. Don't listen to super hero docs and think you can easily replicate.

5%? lol

 

[askadds]

5%? lol

yup, average in 2010 was 170k, in 2022 it was sitting at 179k and I doubt its higher today.

For the confused folk out there, anyone that has a brain and can show up on time can earn these amounts fairly easily.

 

[charlestweed]

New grad dentists tend to be slow and see fewer patients; therefore, their salaries are in the low to mid 100k. As they get more experience (by doing the same repetitive work every day), they can handle higher patient volume per day (with fewer clinical mistakes) and their incomes increase significantly. Dentists get paid based on the number of procedures he/she performs. It’s simple math...seeing more patients/doing more procedures = higher income.

Dentistry is not the only profession that is affected by this inflation. The median household income in America has been on the decline in recent years. Consumers Are Getting Squeezed As Inflation Reaches 31-Year High And Household Income Drops Housing becomes more unaffordable….more people are living paycheck to paycheck….less people can save for their retirements. There’s no such thing as easy money.

 

[askadds]

New grad dentists tend to be slow and see fewer patients; therefore, their salaries are in the low to mid 100k. As they get more experience (by doing the same repetitive work every day), they can handle higher patient volume per day (with fewer clinical mistakes) and their incomes increase significantly. Dentists get paid based on the number of procedures he/she performs. It’s simple math...seeing more patients/doing more procedures = higher income.

Dentistry is not the only profession that is affected by this inflation. The median household income in America has been on the decline in recent years. Consumers Are Getting Squeezed As Inflation Reaches 31-Year High And Household Income Drops Housing becomes more unaffordable….more people are living paycheck to paycheck….less people can save for their retirements. There’s no such thing as easy money.

You say a lot of stuff on this forum. Find me a job that has seen this little growth in the last decade and post it online for us to see. SMH at your comments, its not reality. Hop onto DT and read what other docs are saying.

 

[charlestweed]

You say a lot of stuff on this forum. Find me a job that has seen this little growth in the last decade and post it online for us to see. SMH at your comments, its not reality. Hop onto DT and read what other docs are saying.

Your income depends on how hard you work....how efficient you are....chair time management....and most importantly, your overhead. Yes, I know insurance companies refuse to pay dentists more. But You can increase your income by controlling one of those things that I mentioned.

I've been on the DT more often recently. I shook my head when I heard some dentists complain about having empty slots on the schedule and they still spoil their hygienist with 1 hr time slot for each patient....such office is overstaffed. I shook my head when I read about a young dentist who purchased an existing practice and then he bought a bunch of new equipment despite having zero knowledge about the office's existing patient base.....and then he complained about the high overhead. I shook my head when I read about a dentist who took out $800k loan to build a practice and then complained that the bank withdrew the loan approval because he purchased a home right before signing the loan doc.

I have a lot of friends who are general dentists. They work hard and have very comfortable lifestyle. They accept medicaid. When their offices don't have enough patients, they travel to work part time at the same Corp where I am at. They keep their fees low to attract more patients and make money by keeping the overhead low. Most of them don't hire hygienists. Yes, they complain about the hard work, the PITA patients, the hand and back problems....but every job has its pros and cons. Working is not supposed to be fun. The reality is most people don't love their jobs.

Last week, my wife and kids traveled to Japan. They went with my sister's family. I stayed home because I don't like traveling and being on a long flight. My kids were surprised at how hard the Japanese work. Old men and women who at at their grandparents' age are still working....doing manual labor work for 10+ hours a day. No wonder why the country is so advanced.

 

[Thehighwind87]

Your income depends on how hard you work....how efficient you are....chair time management....and most importantly, your overhead. Yes, I know insurance companies refuse to pay dentists more. But You can increase your income by controlling one of those things that I mentioned.

I've been on the DT more often recently. I shook my head when I heard some dentists complain about having empty slots on the schedule and they still spoil their hygienist with 1 hr time slot for each patient....such office is overstaffed. I shook my head when I read about a young dentist who purchased an existing practice and then he bought a bunch of new equipment despite having zero knowledge about the office's existing patient base.....and then he complained about the high overhead. I shook my head when I read about a dentist who took out $800k loan to build a practice and then complained that the bank withdrew the loan approval because he purchased a home right before signing the loan doc.

I have a lot of friends who are general dentists. They work hard and have very comfortable lifestyle. They accept medicaid. When their offices don't have enough patients, they travel to work part time at the same Corp where I am at. They keep their fees low to attract more patients and make money by keeping the overhead low. Most of them don't hire hygienists. Yes, they complain about the hard work, the PITA patients, the hand and back problems....but every job has its pros and cons. Working is not supposed to be fun. The reality is most people don't love their jobs.

Last week, my wife and kids traveled to Japan. They went with my sister's family. I stayed home because I don't like traveling and being on a long flight. My kids were surprised at how hard the Japanese work. Old men and women who at at their grandparents' age are still working....doing manual labor work for 10+ hours a day. No wonder why the country is so advanced.

My friend. You are missing the forest for the trees.

If you can’t understand how a 5% overall raise in overall income from 2010 to current timeline… then I dunno how else to explain it to ya.

Your retort is work harder, do more hours do whatever. I get it I do. But it still doesn’t explain how and why dental incomes are 5% higher when inflation has compounded much more.

Oh well.

I sometimes do wonder if you are just trolling… some of the responses are so… troll ish that I just wonder. I believe you are a dentist ortho but at the same time I scratch my head.

 

[2TH MVR]

@charlestweed is not trolling. He works really hard to make up for the negative economics of being a dentist.

When I 1st came on this board. I did not agree with his approach: low fee Ortho tx along with long hours. But I respect him now. Rather than complain... He works hard.

I do agree that dentistry is not what it once was. The field of Ortho has changed ... And not for the best.

My girlfriend has a 4 yr psychology degree and is an upper level medical sales account manager. She made more money than I did last year. Seriously. She gets paid vacations. I don't. She gets to travel to exotic destinations for Corporate events. I don't.

So yeah. Dentistry is losing some of its shine. But I still enjoy practicing Ortho.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

My friend. You are missing the forest for the trees.

If you can’t understand how a 5% overall raise in overall income from 2010 to current timeline… then I dunno how else to explain it to ya.

Your retort is work harder, do more hours do whatever. I get it I do. But it still doesn’t explain how and why dental incomes are 5% higher when inflation has compounded much more.

Oh well.

I sometimes do wonder if you are just trolling… some of the responses are so… troll ish that I just wonder. I believe you are a dentist ortho but at the same time I scratch my head.

@charlestweed has a different background than you. He came from a Communist Asian country where people can die at the whims of the gov't. He worked 7 days a week at his own clinic and at the DSO. He is very cost conscience and started his practice very inexpensively. He lives and works at SoCal so you can imagine how saturated that area is. He needed to lower his fees to stay competitive. He is the example of poor immigrant success story while arriving at this country as a possible refugee not knowing English. We just can't replicate his work ethic and success because we are all spoiled.

 

[charlestweed]

My friend. You are missing the forest for the trees.

If you can’t understand how a 5% overall raise in overall income from 2010 to current timeline… then I dunno how else to explain it to ya.

Your retort is work harder, do more hours do whatever. I get it I do. But it still doesn’t explain how and why dental incomes are 5% higher when inflation has compounded much more.

Oh well.

I sometimes do wonder if you are just trolling… some of the responses are so… troll ish that I just wonder. I believe you are a dentist ortho but at the same time I scratch my head.

We, California dentists, have experienced oversaturation and pay cut for the last 20-30 years. We just have to learn to adapt. To live in CA, we are willing to make sacrifice….. we accept the fact that we have to work more for less pay than dentists, who practice in other parts of the country. And in exchange for this, we get beautiful weather and other conveniences like good restaurants, nice amusement parks, and beaches. Life is a series of trade-offs.

My point was there should be a steady increase in income from year 1 to maybe year 10 as one gains more clinical experience and speed. But of course, at certain point in one’s career, the income will reach a plateau (because one has maxed out his capacity to produce) and then decline due to an increase in one’s age and due to the insurance companies cutting their pays. It’s the same for other jobs. As ones get older, they will be replaced by the younger worker if they are not able to produce for their employers the same way that the younger workers can. And it’s not easy for older people to find the same good paying jobs after they are let go. My 59 yo office manager still stays with me despite not getting a raise from me in the last 2 years because being at her current age, it's not easy for her to find a better paying job.

At least dentistry allows us to make good enough income early in our career (when we are still young and healthy)….. and therefore, we should invest early, instead of wasting it on cars and vacations. At least the dentists’ jobs are stable…..and are immune to technological changes and AI. It’s not easy to make good money nowadays. Less than 20% of the individuals in this country make more than $100k/yr.

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

I think we often lose perspective once we are surrounded by dentists and dentistry all day every day. I still have an optimistic view of the profession. Sure, it might not be what it once was, but neither is tech. Neither is medicine. Neither are a lot of things.

Dentistry offers you a stable job. You’re unlikely to ever be laid off. Ask people in tech about this.

Dentistry offers you the flexibility to be a business owner. This allows you to practice at the scale you want.

For four years of extra schooling, the income can be phenomenal. I don’t know another field where I could be in my twenties, debt free, and making over $400k per year. My colleagues in medicine are going through grueling residency programs and many won’t even be making this income.

Dentistry offers you the opportunity to practice where you want to practice. Not all jobs offer the flexibility to work anywhere you want.

There are lots of good aspects of dentistry. @charlestweed makes a lot of really good points. You have to be able to adapt. But dentistry is still a great field. You can get $1000 for 20 minutes of work prepping a crown. Even if in the future reimbursement rates were to drop to half of that, not many jobs pay you that much for 20 minutes of relatively easy work.

 

[charlestweed]

You can get $1000 for 20 minutes of work prepping a crown. Even if in the future reimbursement rates were to drop to half of that, not many jobs pay you that much for 20 minutes of relatively easy work.

This is exactly my point.

 

[D1Bound]

I think we often lose perspective once we are surrounded by dentists and dentistry all day every day. I still have an optimistic view of the profession. Sure, it might not be what it once was, but neither is tech. Neither is medicine. Neither are a lot of things.

Dentistry offers you a stable job. You’re unlikely to ever be laid off. Ask people in tech about this.

Dentistry offers you the flexibility to be a business owner. This allows you to practice at the scale you want.

For four years of extra schooling, the income can be phenomenal. I don’t know another field where I could be in my twenties, debt free, and making over $400k per year. My colleagues in medicine are going through grueling residency programs and many won’t even be making this income.

Dentistry offers you the opportunity to practice where you want to practice. Not all jobs offer the flexibility to work anywhere you want.

There are lots of good aspects of dentistry. @charlestweed makes a lot of really good points. You have to be able to adapt. But dentistry is still a great field. You can get $1000 for 20 minutes of work prepping a crown. Even if in the future reimbursement rates were to drop to half of that, not many jobs pay you that much for 20 minutes of relatively easy work.

most students won’t be debt free and making 400k in their 20s. I don’t know anyone in my class that that’s going to be the case. Maybe they’ll have strong income, but debt free? No way. Not a chance. A few have had their parents pay tuition.

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

most students won’t be debt free and making 400k in their 20s. I don’t know anyone in my class that that’s going to be the case. Maybe they’ll have strong income, but debt free? No way. Not a chance. A few have had their parents pay tuition.

You’re right, most students won’t. But they can be if they’re committed. I wouldn’t have guessed it was possible either until I did it.

 

[Ryxndek]

You’re right, most students won’t. But they can be if they’re committed. I wouldn’t have guessed it was possible either until I did it.

I need you to start a CE course so I can learn the way.

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

I need you to start a CE course so I can learn the way.

Anyone can do it. I’m nothing special. You just have to be consistently disciplined and have a plan.

Things I did that helped:
1) Graduated undergrad a semester early and worked for 6 months prior to dental school.

2) Educated myself on finances before, during, and after dental school.

3) Lived at home during dental school and commuted 1.5 hours each way, 3 hours each day.

4) Worked a few side jobs during dental school to make money where I could.

5) Interviewed with a lot of different dentists until I found a good fit for a job. By seeing different contracts I was able to get a good idea of what’s normal, and what’s not, in a contract. This gave me negotiating power. I didn’t sign the first contract offered to me.

4) Lived at home after dental school and put the majority of my income towards my loans for the first year outside of dates with my girlfriend, car/commuting costs, a few weddings, and using tax advantaged investment accounts.

5) Focused on learning as much as I could from people with more experience than me.

6) Working in two different offices right out of school (one Monday-Thursday and the other on Fridays and two half Saturdays per month) to maximize experience and income. This also allowed me to see how each business operated to help me see what works, and what doesn’t! Another benefit of this is it protected me in case one of the jobs turned out to be a bust, I could easily hop to the other job. Both jobs luckily ended up being good ones in which I was able to build a busy schedule.

7) Take good CE. I took a good implant course my first year working which gave me a good base to start from. Get involved with molar endo, simple implants, simple clear aligner cases, extractions and bone grafting, etc. Start simple and gradually expand your skillset.

Once you do something enough times, you begin to get quicker. Learn from your mistakes. Focus on improving. Take care of your patients.

 

[Thehighwind87]

This is exactly my point.

I think we often lose perspective once we are surrounded by dentists and dentistry all day every day. I still have an optimistic view of the profession. Sure, it might not be what it once was, but neither is tech. Neither is medicine. Neither are a lot of things.

Dentistry offers you a stable job. You’re unlikely to ever be laid off. Ask people in tech about this.

Dentistry offers you the flexibility to be a business owner. This allows you to practice at the scale you want.

For four years of extra schooling, the income can be phenomenal. I don’t know another field where I could be in my twenties, debt free, and making over $400k per year. My colleagues in medicine are going through grueling residency programs and many won’t even be making this income.

Dentistry offers you the opportunity to practice where you want to practice. Not all jobs offer the flexibility to work anywhere you want.

There are lots of good aspects of dentistry. @charlestweed makes a lot of really good points. You have to be able to adapt. But dentistry is still a great field. You can get $1000 for 20 minutes of work prepping a crown. Even if in the future reimbursement rates were to drop to half of that, not many jobs pay you that much for 20 minutes of relatively easy work.

If you are honestly content knowing that a crown prep can drop to 50% of 1k (500$) in the future… as the cost of living increases all around you- then man, that is some next level coping.

I’ll be long retired by then, and if you are still cutting those crowns at half the rate while inflation has compounded another 10-20% and a hamburger is 50$… then hey 🫡 I respect that.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

I think we often lose perspective once we are surrounded by dentists and dentistry all day every day. I still have an optimistic view of the profession. Sure, it might not be what it once was, but neither is tech. Neither is medicine. Neither are a lot of things.

Dentistry offers you a stable job. You’re unlikely to ever be laid off. Ask people in tech about this.

Dentistry offers you the flexibility to be a business owner. This allows you to practice at the scale you want.

For four years of extra schooling, the income can be phenomenal. I don’t know another field where I could be in my twenties, debt free, and making over $400k per year. My colleagues in medicine are going through grueling residency programs and many won’t even be making this income.

Dentistry offers you the opportunity to practice where you want to practice. Not all jobs offer the flexibility to work anywhere you want.

There are lots of good aspects of dentistry. @charlestweed makes a lot of really good points. You have to be able to adapt. But dentistry is still a great field. You can get $1000 for 20 minutes of work prepping a crown. Even if in the future reimbursement rates were to drop to half of that, not many jobs pay you that much for 20 minutes of relatively easy work.

Just curious, what part of the country do you practice? IMO, dental income/take-home varies greatly depending on location. With your stellar work ethic & skills, you wouldn't like the Pacific NW. Even rural areas ~2 hrs from the city are oversaturated. FYI, I chose to make less and live here. My sister wanted me to practice with her in TX but it is too hot there.

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

Just curious, what part of the country do you practice? IMO, dental income/take-home varies greatly depending on location. With your stellar work ethic & skills, you wouldn't like the Pacific NW. Even rural areas ~2 hrs from the city are oversaturated. FYI, I chose to make less and live here. My sister wanted me to practice with her in TX but it is too hot there.

Northeast! Practice 25 minutes outside of one of the largest cities in the country.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

If you are honestly content knowing that a crown prep can drop to 50% of 1k (500$) in the future… as the cost of living increases all around you- then man, that is some next level coping.

I’ll be long retired by then, and if you are still cutting those crowns at half the rate while inflation has compounded another 10-20% and a hamburger is 50$… then hey 🫡 I respect that.

If you had to start over, what profession do you favor? In Asia, the COL is way less but there are no jobs. Here in the States, there are jobs but one can't afford to buy a house, go to college, and get healthcare. I worry for my kids.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

Northeast! Practice 25 minutes outside of one of the largest cities in the country.

You are amazing! I believe the NE is probably more saturated than the Pacific NW. Probably income for your pts are much higher for them to afford your work. In my area, the ones with money don't want to spend on teeth.

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

If you are honestly content knowing that a crown prep can drop to 50% of 1k (500$) in the future… as the cost of living increases all around you- then man, that is some next level coping.

I’ll be long retired by then, and if you are still cutting those crowns at half the rate while inflation has compounded another 10-20% and a hamburger is 50$… then hey 🫡 I respect that.

All the power to you! Work hard. You’re investing wisely and won’t have to practice for 40 years if you don’t want to. People should learn from that. I’m not saying $500 crowns are a great thing, but it’s better than working a desk job, where you’re replaceable by AI and not making $500 for a 20 minute procedure. Most people don’t even make $500/day let alone $500 for a single procedure. This is where perspective matters.