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Jesus dude. You got called out for your poor understanding of medical ethics by someone with far more experience than yourself. Learn from their advice and grow up a little.
"Why your two week trip to Haiti doesn't matter"
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Jesus dude. You got called out for your poor understanding of medical ethics by someone with far more experience than yourself. Learn from their advice and grow up a little.
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1. No need to be rude.
2. It's not about convincing people that you're qualified, its about having or not having the proper skillset to act in an emergency. With the heimleich or CPR, the worst you're going to be able to do if you're untrained and some guy on the street drops to the ground is break some ribs, but at the same time, if you don't know how to do these things, the best option is immediately call 911 and have them tell you what to do.
3. Med students can only do things if authorized and overseen by the attendings. They only get to write orders if the attending signs off on them. They're not willy nilly prescribing medications to patients without a qualified instructor looking over each order. When medical students do have the opportunity to do things that they might not be "qualified" to do (ie place central lines), the patient (or their poa/rep) will be asked if its okay for the medical student to try and they have the opportunity to say no, and if they do say yes, there's always a resident or attending standing right behind them making sure they're not going to do any harm or to take over if necessary. Hello informed consent and autonomy, two things that are likely lacking in your pulling teeth example.
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1. I'm pretty sure that the med student ALWAYS runs it by the attending before putting orders in. I actually know this because in our ED, we run on EPIC, and any non-NP/PA/Resident/MD DO is only allowed to Pend orders that are eventually signed by physicians before actually being placed. Hell, even many first year residents even ask for approval unless it's glaringly obvious that the patient needs a certain set of labs.
2. I'm pretty sure that pulling teeth in people who have been living with decayed teeth for years is not considered a medical emergency as opposed to somebody who actively needs CPR or is choking so the whole scenario you describe is literally taking it to the extreme..............There's also a reason why unless the patient is septic or has something as bad as Ludwig's Angina where they are in danger of having airway compromise, dental pain is treat with antibiotics, pain meds, follow up to the dental clinic in a month when there's an opening.
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I'm female.
People like you with attitudes like that are the reason my County patients have grown up distrusting doctors. That will always get vitriol from me- as will your bratty response when called out on it. Don't go spouting off on when you think "emergencies" should trump "ethics," when you clearly know very little about either.
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if I had a dollar for every time I confused you and gyngyn...
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I don't have anything to add to this as I am traveling to foreign countries on my own and touring medical facilities (my friend and I who are going are health comm/health policy nuts) without humble bragging about it on my application (or getting in contact with a single person in need, I can admit that I'm going out of my own selfish urge to travel), but I will say that there are quite a few indignant trolls on this thread who have a monstrous "holier than thou" attitude.
It's an Internet thread people. Calm yoself. (Sliced bread in particular or whatever your name is. Makennacompton, etc)
It's an Internet thread people. Calm yoself. (Sliced bread in particular or whatever your name is. Makennacompton, etc)
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Just gonna throw my $.02 in the mix. I was president and founder of an undergrad chapter of Global Medical Brigades and I definitely put the 10-day medical/public health brigade on my apps. I think that it really helped my application stand out because all of my interviewers (over 4 interviews) wanted to hear about my experience on the trip and organizing the trip. I don't know a whole lot about other organizations, but I know that the difference that global brigades makes is a huge one that is sustained by students from all over the country throughout the year. Yes, the contribution of one student on one brigade is minimal, but thousands of students over many brigades is not. SO from my perspective, it was a really amazing experience for me AND helped make a difference in the communities we served. Our brigade alone provided medications (1-3 month supplies) for over 850 people and built water containment units, hygiene stations, latrines, sewage tanks, and concrete floors in the homes of 3 families (and worked our butts off every single day- no voluntourism involved). That's not huge. But knowing that there will be a hundred more brigades that help in the same ways makes a huge difference to these communities. And I think it helped make me stand out to adcoms, as the brigade was no walk in the park to plan OR participate in. Aside from that, brigades are completely student led and all of the money, medications, and supplies that we needed were 100% donation based and completely recruited by the students that went on the brigade. We also recruited 2 physicians to go and none of us did anything that we wouldn't be allowed to do in the US with no certifications.
Tldr: I founded a chapter of GMB and went on a brigade and all of my interviewers were interested in hearing about it. Accepted to 2 schools out of my 4 interviews so far. It isn't a worthless experience.
Tldr: I founded a chapter of GMB and went on a brigade and all of my interviewers were interested in hearing about it. Accepted to 2 schools out of my 4 interviews so far. It isn't a worthless experience.
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This is different than the typical "go to 3rd world country, do some procedures that you aren't trained to do on people who can't give informed consent, then write about how you're changing the world and humbled by your experience" thing that frequently happens. It was valuable because, based on what you wrote, you might have actually brought about some good.
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I completely agree! that's exactly my point. I'm simply suggesting for the sake of the discussion that all premed mission trips are not created equally. There are certainly some good organizations out there to go along with the unethical ones that are meant to take people traveling and get them some easy hands-on experience (for a fee). Anyone who's looking into this type of thing should check out Global Brigades. It was the hardest work I've ever done in my life but in the end it was really worthwhile for me and the communities that GB works with.
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Going to do my @gyngyn impression: Were local workers involved in the building of those latrines and sewage facilities? Or were they cut off from the employment (and resulting economic benefit)?
An organization that helps train locals in a means of gainful employment can make quite a positive difference. An organization that uses a constant rotation of foreigners instead? Not so much. Not sure which category GB falls into, but that's something to keep in mind.
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No, not at all. I completely agree with you and global brigades as an organization is very conscious of the difference. We worked with a team of about 12 local construction workers. The money for the renovations went to local businesses for the supplies, materials, etc. The clinic was also staffed with two local dentists, two local OB/GYNs, 3 local pharmacists, and numerous staff that live in the communities and were paid to help with organization of the clinic. And that is only counting the in-country staff that was paid by our single brigade
Edit: come to think of it, we didn't encounter a single American that wasn't a student or physician volunteer. All of the in-country staff were locals who lived in the communities that we were working in.
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It's difficult to sort this out sometimes, though. Honestly, sometimes the best way to help people is to focus on yourself - on learning from what you see, and on giving yourself skills for the future. But it's also easy to feel like you need to be doing something now. Balancing those two can be tricky.
For example, I'm currently living in Guatemala for 6mo, with a program aimed at pre-health students. Do I benefit from it? Yes. Do I intend to focus on enjoying myself and learning? Yes. But, in my mind, this trip is as much to help future patients as it is for myself. After 6mo here, including hospital shadowing and 3mo spent working with local NGOs focused on health education, etc...I will come back with better tools to use in the future. My hope is that I will never feel like I need to leave one of my patients waiting simply because they speak Spanish, or that I am limited to a bare-bones medical history in those cases (sorry, even translators just don't do much justice to a full, detailed, patient history). And, though this is harder to attain and describe, I also hope that the perspective I gain from living somewhere where you have to worry about whether the water you drink is potable, etc., and seeing how healthcare works there...I hope that will stick in my mind in the future, too.
But hey, at the end of the day, I have to admit that I am here as a tourist, no matter how long the trip or how I hope to use my Spanish in the future. This isn't some grand sacrifice I'm making...I intend to enjoy the hell out of living somewhere beautiful, completely new/unfamiliar, and cheap. I am spending less money, learning more, and having more fun than I would have if I stayed in the US, and I'm completely OK with that (who wouldn't be?!?). I'm doing this trip for myself, both now as a person and in the future as (hopefully) a physician who will have many Spanish-speaking patients; I am not doing this trip for the application.
If I even mentioned this trip at all in applications (it was not in my primary), I tried to focus on the fact that I should be fluent in medical Spanish by the time I matriculate, and only discussed the other aspects of the trip if asked about it, or if it seemed particularly relevant to a prompt. To me, obtaining total fluency is the most relevant part for a future in medicine, though I do hope to do some international volunteering eventually in my career.
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The "they're just jealous" argument is not very well thought out. It doesn't really fly in this context either.
Edit: My original wording was kind of rude.
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It was obviously a joke
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What did those people do after the 1-3 month supplies of meds ran out?
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Student brigades are sent to each community every 3 months as often as possible. Even if they are out longer than three months, these are people who couldn't get these medications at all if it weren't for the brigades.
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Speaking of useless
"Michelle Lynn Stayton is an editor at AlmostDocs. As a former senate staffer, her speciality is healthcare policy. Michelle also spent several years focusing on African international development, including a brief stint in Uganda in 2007. Her focus now is healthcare tech, and she wants to develop mobile apps to help bridge the gap between international aid workers and people in need."
A pot calling a kettle black.
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When I interview people (for a research job, not for school) with a bunch of international stuff on their resume, I am much more likely to think they are a rich snob than anything else.
The only exception would be something truly exceptional, prolonged, and independent. Unfortunately that is the exception, and the rule is their parents paid for them to spend 2-4 weeks in a bunch of countries during college and at some point during that they met some orphans or looked at some medical charts.
The only exception would be something truly exceptional, prolonged, and independent. Unfortunately that is the exception, and the rule is their parents paid for them to spend 2-4 weeks in a bunch of countries during college and at some point during that they met some orphans or looked at some medical charts.
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Ah, but you can tell fairly easily from AMCAS whether the person is rich or not...how do you think you'd react seeing someone not rich with a bunch of international work on their resumé? Would the snob part still apply, or would you reevaluate entirely?
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I guess I would just stick with the "prolonged, exceptional, and independent" filter for how much I cared about it.
I regret using the word 'snob' because didn't mean to imply that I necessarily hold these activities against someone - if you have the means to hang out in Indonesia for a while, by all means do it! However it doesn't really get them any positive points either. It's a bit like posting a line on the end of your resume that you are a great cook or play the piano - it may come up casually in an interview, but I don't really especially care, at least not in the sense that it's going to land you the job.
I'm assuming that you're dispensing meds for common chronic conditions like diabetes, hypertension, etc. I just wonder how helpful it is to have 3-4 months of treatment a year vs none. Some meds may not be better than no meds if those some meds aren't taken regularly.
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Makes sense...that's exactly why I wanted to spend enough time somewhere to feel as if I actually lived there, though in the end I shied away from being completely independent because it was just as cheap, if not cheaper, to do the package deal I got as it would have been to wing it all. I've never considered this from the perspective of a manager/adcom, but for my own personal growth I thought I would be better off with a 6mo trip where I could hopefully eventually feel like less of a tourist by the end.
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Maybe I wasn't clear about what I meant earlier. They send brigades at least every three months to make sure that people in the communities they serve have enough medications to continue their treatments consistently. It is rare, if ever, that a community that they serve goes 3 months without a medical brigade because there are so many universities that send students multiple times each year. You should check out their website! If you're concerned, email one of the advisors and ask. They're also students and they're excellent resources.
And you're correct about the meds. Although we aren't able to bring insulin, we bring medications for chronic illnesses like Metformin, multiple blood pressure medications, inhalers, etc. as well as medications for acute illness such as various antibiotics, steroids, topical creams, antihistamines, and tons more. Every patient also gets several months of daily multivitamins and a dental hygiene pack. There is also a comprehensive list of supplies in the volunteer tools on the website, if you're interested.
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Prefacing this by saying that I've been on two week-long trips to underserved regions of the Caribbean, and was the leader of a trip.
There's a lot of variance between medical missions and ultimately I'd say that the deciding factor in how it will affect your application is how you are able to talk about it. The article and other posters bring up some good points. Many trips are indeed exploitative. Many pre-meds make the mistake of believing that their mission work alone is significant clinical experience. Mission trips can be known for discouraging a country from developing an effective healthcare system. A single clinic a year in a rural location is not an adequate replacement for longitudinal primary care. Many pre-meds will be proud and emphasize the things they had the opportunity to do which they were not qualified to do, where this is actually an indicator that an applicant was willing to jeopardize the standard of care for patients in order to get an experience on their resume.
With that said, mission trips have the potential to be valuable. Personally, I had prior clinical experience with the underserved domestically, and my first mission trip was a chance to see healthcare in a different kind of underserved setting and do something about it. The trip was centered around physicians both times, the volunteers did nothing more than register patients, get an HPI, take vital signs, and fill prescriptions. We treated over 600 patients over four clinics in three different locations on both trips. The area had a high incidence of diabetes and hypertension, most of it undiagnosed, and our chief role was screening for these diseases - the docs diagnosed a huge volume of these diseases. We brought a boatload of antihypertensive medications and metformin, and were able to give at minimum a 2 month supply of medications to every patient who needed it. We brought free glucometers, test strips, sterile syringes (for insulin injections) as well. Not enough for lifelong treatment, but long enough for the patients who could afford it to get follow up and hopefully consistent primary care. The one thing that we hope will make the biggest impact is the diet and public health counseling which every patient in the clinic received. The organization was founded by a native who went the US and got his MD, and continues to be family operated.
I didn't talk much about my trips in my personal statement but I did mark the one I lead as "most meaningful". It ended up being a significant question I was asked in all of my interviews. At my top choice and the school I will be matriculating to, one of my interviewers was someone significantly involved in global health and we had a great conversation about mission work - when he called to accept me he told me outright that it was the best interview he had conducted in a long time.
I'm no adcom, but by my experience I think that mission trips can be meaningful experiences to an applicant, and valuable to one's application, if done correctly. People on SDN are risk adverse, and the reality is that a majority of mission trips are exploitative and unethical, and a majority of pre-meds will not be able to recognize the value in their trip, nor will they be able to appreciate or articulate any perspective they might have gained from the trip. I think the biggest downfall of folks who go on mission trips is the belief that their single 1-2 week mission trip is adequate clinical experience to apply to medical school with. I think that mission trips should instead be viewed as an activity to supplement existing experiences rather than serve as the foundation for an application.
There's a lot of variance between medical missions and ultimately I'd say that the deciding factor in how it will affect your application is how you are able to talk about it. The article and other posters bring up some good points. Many trips are indeed exploitative. Many pre-meds make the mistake of believing that their mission work alone is significant clinical experience. Mission trips can be known for discouraging a country from developing an effective healthcare system. A single clinic a year in a rural location is not an adequate replacement for longitudinal primary care. Many pre-meds will be proud and emphasize the things they had the opportunity to do which they were not qualified to do, where this is actually an indicator that an applicant was willing to jeopardize the standard of care for patients in order to get an experience on their resume.
With that said, mission trips have the potential to be valuable. Personally, I had prior clinical experience with the underserved domestically, and my first mission trip was a chance to see healthcare in a different kind of underserved setting and do something about it. The trip was centered around physicians both times, the volunteers did nothing more than register patients, get an HPI, take vital signs, and fill prescriptions. We treated over 600 patients over four clinics in three different locations on both trips. The area had a high incidence of diabetes and hypertension, most of it undiagnosed, and our chief role was screening for these diseases - the docs diagnosed a huge volume of these diseases. We brought a boatload of antihypertensive medications and metformin, and were able to give at minimum a 2 month supply of medications to every patient who needed it. We brought free glucometers, test strips, sterile syringes (for insulin injections) as well. Not enough for lifelong treatment, but long enough for the patients who could afford it to get follow up and hopefully consistent primary care. The one thing that we hope will make the biggest impact is the diet and public health counseling which every patient in the clinic received. The organization was founded by a native who went the US and got his MD, and continues to be family operated.
I didn't talk much about my trips in my personal statement but I did mark the one I lead as "most meaningful". It ended up being a significant question I was asked in all of my interviews. At my top choice and the school I will be matriculating to, one of my interviewers was someone significantly involved in global health and we had a great conversation about mission work - when he called to accept me he told me outright that it was the best interview he had conducted in a long time.
I'm no adcom, but by my experience I think that mission trips can be meaningful experiences to an applicant, and valuable to one's application, if done correctly. People on SDN are risk adverse, and the reality is that a majority of mission trips are exploitative and unethical, and a majority of pre-meds will not be able to recognize the value in their trip, nor will they be able to appreciate or articulate any perspective they might have gained from the trip. I think the biggest downfall of folks who go on mission trips is the belief that their single 1-2 week mission trip is adequate clinical experience to apply to medical school with. I think that mission trips should instead be viewed as an activity to supplement existing experiences rather than serve as the foundation for an application.
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Honestly, premeds need to stop doing activities that are totally dispassionate about and cost a ton for no reason other than inflating their resume, especially these 2 week "vacations abroads". There's enough room to diversify and do the community service activities you're interested in and learn enough to make them sound/be meaningful, do research on something remotely interested*** (really varies, it helps to have very general interests bc meaningful research is a bitch to get on the undergrad level), and once you move past the BS shadowing shtick, you're good. IMO there's not much to learn from shadowing after like the initial 8 hrs. I did a program where I spent 8 hrs a day watching surgeries in the back of the room, some ridiculous pointless dragged-out weekend workshops and there were a ton of ridiculous hoops/formalities we had to jump through and honestly that was one of the most pointless tedious things I've ever done because it like most shadowing wasn't an engaging or interactive experience. It looked damn good on my application, but I'd never do anything like that again. It's lucky that this program I mentioned got discontinued otherwise I'd be discouraging people by the boatload from applying.
As for these global health trips, many of my friends did this stuff, and I said hell no because it's not something that interested me, and I knew I'd get nothing out of it except a box check because it's not one of my passions.
ECs have basically turned into a giant pissing contest of who has the most hours and who did the most interactive medical stuff, and I really wish it wasn't that way, especially since some of the stuff premeds can get away with doing in these programs is mortifyingly far beyond their qualifications and would horrify adcoms. Find something you enjoy, check the basic categorical boxes through enjoyment and enduring the tedious stuff (shadowing), and enjoy your life. True passion will come across way better in interviews than doing 80 million things because "they look good" this of course assuming you get an open-minded interview who you can mesh with (chances are variable). This approach also burns out applicants a lot less because it's not dividing yourself between doing 80 million things on top of school/work/mcat.
As for these global health trips, many of my friends did this stuff, and I said hell no because it's not something that interested me, and I knew I'd get nothing out of it except a box check because it's not one of my passions.
ECs have basically turned into a giant pissing contest of who has the most hours and who did the most interactive medical stuff, and I really wish it wasn't that way, especially since some of the stuff premeds can get away with doing in these programs is mortifyingly far beyond their qualifications and would horrify adcoms. Find something you enjoy, check the basic categorical boxes through enjoyment and enduring the tedious stuff (shadowing), and enjoy your life. True passion will come across way better in interviews than doing 80 million things because "they look good" this of course assuming you get an open-minded interview who you can mesh with (chances are variable). This approach also burns out applicants a lot less because it's not dividing yourself between doing 80 million things on top of school/work/mcat.
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OK, this is enough info that I'm 99% certain which program you're referring to and...if that's all you got out of the program, I'd recommend learning how to put yourself forward and take control of your own education when you're in a setting which provides such opportunities without holding your hand.
I just have a hard time listening to you diss people for 'box-checking' and doing useless activities when it's not clear that you understand the difference between "EC that provides no opportunities for learning, exists only to look good" and "EC that requires interest and effort from the student to be valuable."
Besides, at some point your medical education is going to end up in a similar situation, where the more you push, show interest, and do work on your own, the more and better opportunities you'll get and the more people will teach you. Best to work on those skills now.
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I have a hard time taking you seriously at all, especially since I've been accepted to medical school and you haven't.
I put myself forward just fine and involved myself, it wasn't that. I definitely don't need my hand held, though you should look into it because it's clear you're missing the forest from the trees, so some expert guidance like my own could really help you out 🙂. You can ask questions and stand around for 8 hrs, but the novelty wears off pretty damn fast and the whole thing was a monotonous chore. I recommend you stay out of conversations you have no clue about. If you enjoy that sort of monotony, you can probably just learn just as much through watching drawn out 8+ hr surgeries at home without all the BS.
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The hilarious truth here is that none of us are qualified to judge another person's experience. If someone goes on a medical mission and learns something that drives them to pursue medicine, that's great! If it inspires them to continue to help the less fortunate, that's even better. So what if they enjoyed traveling or had a good time while they were there? If an applicant can effectively articulate what was valuable about their experience, then why in the world would it not be valid to discuss on their apps?
People can argue about whether or not any of them make any long-term difference in the end, but anyone who's had the opportunity to help people in need get access to healthcare they would not otherwise get knows how much it means to those individuals. Besides, plenty of people who do these kinds of volunteer trips get accepted to med school in the end, myself included. In fact, one of my interviewers wanted to hear all about it because he does trips with the same organization I was part of every year.
Just like anything else, one adcom may look differently on an activity than another one will. Anything that anyone here has to say about what adcoms will think is purely speculation and should be disregarded as such. But bashing people because they choose to do things differently from you is childish and frankly not at all characterstic of a good physician. You just do you and everyone else can just do them. Damn.
People can argue about whether or not any of them make any long-term difference in the end, but anyone who's had the opportunity to help people in need get access to healthcare they would not otherwise get knows how much it means to those individuals. Besides, plenty of people who do these kinds of volunteer trips get accepted to med school in the end, myself included. In fact, one of my interviewers wanted to hear all about it because he does trips with the same organization I was part of every year.
Just like anything else, one adcom may look differently on an activity than another one will. Anything that anyone here has to say about what adcoms will think is purely speculation and should be disregarded as such. But bashing people because they choose to do things differently from you is childish and frankly not at all characterstic of a good physician. You just do you and everyone else can just do them. Damn.
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If you spent all of those surgeries in the back of the room, you weren't putting yourself forward or involving yourself, sorry. That's taking a great opportunity and flushing it down the drain. I did the exact same program as you and was usually actively engaged with someone at all times, asking specific questions, getting specific answers, being offered better vantage points or shown things. I know exactly what I'm talking about, and it's the ability to find something interesting in what is going on around you and figure out a way to hear/see more about it. It's how you learn outside the classroom, and even if you didn't want to do it in this program because you saw it primarily as box-checking instead of the opportunity it was...you're going to have to acquire this ability by 3rd year. If you want to sit around the back of the room as an MS3 and do nothing because it's glorified shadowing, well, that's probably exactly what you will do.
But sure, if you want to get a head start on the whole "you're a premed and thus know nothing" bullcrap, go ahead...it's just rather hilarious since you don't even have the additional experience those posters usually have to support that attitude.
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That sounds awesome (I mean that), however it has nothing to do with why you should be hired or accepted to school.
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I think you're missing the larger question involving the ethics of going on a feel-good vacation without considering the long-term and potentially negative impact these things can have on a community. No one would say that someone who wants to help people receive access to healthcare in another country should redirect their passion. But many of these trips are exploitative and promote a Western tourism mentality. How much does a pre-med student visiting a health center actually increase access to health care? Emphasizing how much it means to those individuals for you to be there is exactly the entitled mentality that should be avoided. Third world countries and their huge, systemic issues are not there to inspire you. Again, many of these trips are different, some are longer term, and some provide sustainable relief. But as an individual pre-med, you get way more out of this experience than the people you leave behind after a week.
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There is no perfect way to serve others. And if it were simple to create a perfect and encompassing way for people to improve the quality of life in a third world country with absolutely no possible repercussions, then you can bet your ass it would have been done. If making a volunteer trip fun for volunteers increases participation, why would that make it a less valid choice? As far as the constant criticism of short stays, not many people are able to just take a few months away from their lives to go somewhere and make a "real" difference. Does that mean that no one should try and give the time that they can? And sure, a premed visiting a health center may not be earth shatteringly helpful. But they may be able to reduce the workload for a while when they're there, and that isn't negligable. If these hospitals or communities didn't want the help or felt that it was impacting their communities negatively, they would not allow volunteers to continue to participate. No one is forced to allow volunteers into their clinic or community.
Of course the problems of third world countries don't exist to inspire people. That's a bit of a ridiculous statement. But does that mean that they can't or shouldn't? My point is not that all medical missions are a great idea. Again, no organization is perfect but certainly none of them exist to harm other countries. Don't you think that country would disallow them if it did? They aren't stupid people, they know the effects that something has on their community. My point is that all the judgement by American premed students is completely ignorant.
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Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Just because someone has not applied or been accepted yet doesn't mean they aren't qualified to give advice or participate in a conversation - especially when it's about shadowing and doubly so when the poster was in a similar/the same program as you.
If you're letting a medical school acceptance inflate your ego this much, I dread to see the kind of physician you become. Here's to hoping the road teaches you a bit of humility on the way.
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🤣 Oh man you should do stand up.
Honestly with your rancid attitude I'm surprised you weren't forcibly confined to the back of the room by the entire team or put in quarantine. No wonder you were rejected at UCD post-interview. I spent the majority of the time standing the next to the surgeons and residents asking questions, but the program was tedious as ****. I mean 8 hrs a day is way too ****ing long and it was just a monotonous dragged out experience. It's no surprise the program was cancelled because the surgical department didn't see a point to it. It was glorified shadowing with BS formalities. It should have been 4 hrs tops, and the workshops had very little/no point. Perhaps for an obvious greenhorn who is easily impressed by anything like you it might have been amazing. I have 3000 hrs of medical volunteering over number specialities that required actual interactivity, 2000+ hrs of community service/leadership and you bet your butt I didn't have to go to Guadalajara like you did to check a box.
You seriously think that program was equivalent to actual third year experiences?! ROFLMAO🤣🤣🤣🤣Third years ACTUALLY GET TO DO STUFF like not camp the back of the room on rotations whether it's scutt work or having a role in surgery, there's a lot more to it than standing around for 8 hrs and asking questions. I'm an active learner, but even with that this program was tedious and pointless. I have the experience to do the talking, but the fact you actually think that program actually stacks up to third or fourth year experiences shows you don't have a clue. Toot your horn all you want, that doesn't change the facts.
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Look out guys he's got 3000 volunteer hours!
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It would be ridiculous if I wasn't talking to mehc012, whom if you read any of this person's posts in this thread you'd see is an astonishing example of premed hubris not working out for them. The context is key.
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I also think that there is a very big difference between public health missions and medical missions. One requires condoms and STD pamphlets that any adult could help with and the other implies that there is some trained medical professional that helps others in a lesser developed nation.
I have been on four trips to the Dominican Republic. For two trips, my work composed the former, it was a public health mission where our goal was to educate about STD prevention and hand out water filtration bottles then train people on how to use them. The other two trips were focused on more physical labor similar to habitat for humanity - Caribbean version. We dug trenches and helped give three rural villages access to clean drinking water who did not have it previously.
Would the work have gotten done if I was not there?? Yes, it would have. I am a scrawny person and have trouble lifting two gallons of milk at the same time. So I am the first to admit that learning about another culture was one of the main reasons I went on the trip, which may be selfish. However, I also know that prior to the four trips that I took, seventy people traveled over two hours each day for fresh water to drink/cook with and now they spend that time working because over 20 of them now have employment.
In my case, I had over 8 weeks of volunteer hours, which, in my opinion, warranted enough credit be one of my 15 experiences (I did not consider it as a most-meaningful experience either). I did not mention it in my PS and have not been asked about it at any interviews.
So bottom line: if someone says that they performed medical work abroad I am extremely apprehensive about their ability to define scope of practice/patient ethics. However, if someone describes it as more of a public health trip I believe the the trip is no different/the same as a study abroad trip. And there is no way in heck that I would ever count my volunteer hours abroad as "patient care volunteer hours" because it was public health and more non-medical volunteering.
I have been on four trips to the Dominican Republic. For two trips, my work composed the former, it was a public health mission where our goal was to educate about STD prevention and hand out water filtration bottles then train people on how to use them. The other two trips were focused on more physical labor similar to habitat for humanity - Caribbean version. We dug trenches and helped give three rural villages access to clean drinking water who did not have it previously.
Would the work have gotten done if I was not there?? Yes, it would have. I am a scrawny person and have trouble lifting two gallons of milk at the same time. So I am the first to admit that learning about another culture was one of the main reasons I went on the trip, which may be selfish. However, I also know that prior to the four trips that I took, seventy people traveled over two hours each day for fresh water to drink/cook with and now they spend that time working because over 20 of them now have employment.
In my case, I had over 8 weeks of volunteer hours, which, in my opinion, warranted enough credit be one of my 15 experiences (I did not consider it as a most-meaningful experience either). I did not mention it in my PS and have not been asked about it at any interviews.
So bottom line: if someone says that they performed medical work abroad I am extremely apprehensive about their ability to define scope of practice/patient ethics. However, if someone describes it as more of a public health trip I believe the the trip is no different/the same as a study abroad trip. And there is no way in heck that I would ever count my volunteer hours abroad as "patient care volunteer hours" because it was public health and more non-medical volunteering.
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Belee dat playboy, I'm over here eatin'.
But seriously 3000 hr is a hell of a lot time, and definitely more than enough to see every side of premed volunteering. I've done the generic shadowing, intensive volunteering, bs hospital bed-pushing, and glorified shadowing box-checking that really offers nothing (the surgical internship mehc012 and I be talking about).
Certain people don't get the point, imo.
The cost of an average 2-weeks voluntourism trip could feed a family for an entire year in many under-developed regions. If we accept this, it means the benefits you bring must overcome the option you forego (training and paying a local to do the job) for this activity to be ethical.
Physicians bring a lot to the table, because their skills are highly specialized and cannot be taught rapidly. There is a genuine need.
Taking vitals? Handing out pills? Useful, but anyone who can read & write, count, and has a modicum of integrity can do that (meaning a local can do that).
By accepting to participate in these excursions, you are ensuring these communities never become self-sufficient.
The cost of an average 2-weeks voluntourism trip could feed a family for an entire year in many under-developed regions. If we accept this, it means the benefits you bring must overcome the option you forego (training and paying a local to do the job) for this activity to be ethical.
Physicians bring a lot to the table, because their skills are highly specialized and cannot be taught rapidly. There is a genuine need.
Taking vitals? Handing out pills? Useful, but anyone who can read & write, count, and has a modicum of integrity can do that (meaning a local can do that).
By accepting to participate in these excursions, you are ensuring these communities never become self-sufficient.
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Belee dat playboy, I'm over here eatin'.
But seriously 3000 hr is a hell of a lot time, and definitely more than enough to see every side of premed volunteering. I've done the generic shadowing, intensive volunteering, bs hospital bed-pushing, and glorified shadowing box-checking that really offers nothing (the surgical internship mehc012 and I be talking about).
You realize you wasted ~2950 hours of your life
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That reasoning seems like a fallacy to me. Going from inefficient to unethical is a big leap. Also many trips do help to inact longer term changes
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**** no dawg I learned a lot about medicine through the variety of premed volunteering experiences. I did hands on experience and learned the pointlessness of shadowing and the vapidness of bs programs like the surgical internship which are all talk and offer very little. My experiences make me a very discerning critic of volunteer experiences therefore I would be excellent on adcom at interviewing at premeds and finding out what is just talk and what they really did. Also I offer excellent advice to premeds who need advice of volunteering, since I know what not to do as well.
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None of that sounds like a real benefit at all
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Maybe not to you but it was to me I learned a **** ton even though some was begrudgingly learn. I also was paid for a good portion of the hands on stuff so you know It made "cents" 🙂
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Nope, don't think it was equivalent experience...just that I've heard the exact same discussions about getting to do more/speak to more people in both contexts. Ever seen mimelim discuss their MS3/4 experience vs many other people, for example? It seems to boil down to the same ability to demonstrate interest without pissing people off that was so useful during the surgical program. The rewards for doing so are, of course, far greater once you're actually a med student though.
Sorry you found the program so boring; I usually wanted the days to last longer than 8hrs. I certainly agree that a lot of the formalities were ridiculous, but the shadowing itself I found to be gold. I'm not sure why you decided I was a greenhorn; I had worked in hospitals for over a year before that, and I still found it awesome. It's something I'm considering spending far, far more than 8hrs once a week doing in the future, so the fact that it was interesting to me under those circumstances is entirely a good thing as far as I am concerned. I don't feel as if I need to pretend cynical ambivalence to demonstrate experience; nor do I feel the need to get into an internet dick-measuring contest with you over my application (which, as mentioned multiple times, the trip abroad was not even on.) Again, it's one thing for med students to pull out the "you are just a premed" card, but you're not a med student yet. You aren't magically better at all things and more qualified in all discussions just because you got in earlier in the cycle. Keep playing that card if you want, but it's hardly a qualification and mostly just makes you look petty.
I generally tend to agree, which is why I didn't put it on my applications. However, I do think Spanish fluency will be a huge asset going forward, so I tried to highlight that. Beyond that, honestly, while perspective-broadening experiences aren't relevant for most job positions, they seem to be occasionally considered relevant by med admissions, and sometimes I find myself thinking that the average medical professional seems to have a certain, narrow background and the field could use a dash of something different.
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If you don't feel the need to get into a dick-measuring then you shouldn't pull the "I just have a hard time listening to you diss people for 'box-checking' and doing useless activities when it's not clear that you understand the difference between "EC that provides no opportunities for learning, exists only to look good" and "EC that requires interest and effort from the student to be valuable." and "If you spent all of those surgeries in the back of the room, you weren't putting yourself forward or involving yourself, sorry. That's taking a great opportunity and flushing it down the drain. I did the exact same program as you and was usually actively engaged with someone at all times, asking specific questions, getting specific answers, being offered better vantage points or shown things. I know exactly what I'm talking about, and it's the ability to find something interesting in what is going on around you and figure out a way to hear/see more about it. It's how you learn outside the classroom, and even if you didn't want to do it in this program because you saw it primarily as box-checking instead of the opportunity it was...you're going to have to acquire this ability by 3rd year. If you want to sit around the back of the room as an MS3 and do nothing because it's glorified shadowing, well, that's probably exactly what you will do" crap because you have no clue about my experiences, I'm merely putting you in your place about this **** because my experiences are large and varied, and they speak for themselves. I could write a ****ing pHD thesis on them, but they grant you context into the fact that I've done a lot of **** and am damn discerning about it. I'm saying you're a green-horn because the experiences in the surgical internship weren't that amazing and lack of exposure would definitely make them seem more impressive. There was a lot of down time and boredom. (see the paragraph below the next one). It's like you just saw your first movie with awesome special effects and I've seen more of them than Ebert and Roeper. You may think they're cool, but the novelty wears thin.
I'm not just magically pulling the I'm a med student card. You of all people, especially given how rough your cycle has been thus far from what I've read, you should know that me being accepted demonstrates that I know a lot more about this ridiculous process, how to make the most of half-baked shadowing experiences, the way I play the game worked, and that I am more qualified. Look at how many applicants crash and burn and never get it, you bet the people who get in are more qualified. Are you really rationalizing your situation "me just happening to get in earlier in the cycle?". You haven't been accepted to medical school yet, so you should know damn better than to overestimate yourself like that, especially given your experiences. What makes you think you'll get in this cycle given your rocky experiences thus far? For what it's worth, to get interview invites then get nothing but rejections and holds shows an issue with your interviewing prowess and/or personality, so instead of false confidence you should be looking into what you can do to improve yourself for a second time around applying. Not to mention this process is ****ing hard as hell regardless, so I'd like to see where you get off with such hubris. I on the other hand have gotten through this process, and made it to the next step and that is an insane accomplishments.
Back to surgical internship:
I've talked to many Ms3/M4s, and PGY-0+s both through that program, online, and at schools I interviewed at. Showing interest without pissing people off is obviously important (that's always important), but the experiences in the surgical internship are hardly representative of actual M3/M4 years. There's a difference between sitting in the back of the room, and asking questions (surgical interships), and being counted on to do scutt, fulfill your role, and take on specific tasks allocated to you in a proper efficient way (actual M3/M4).
The formalities bled the program dry of any excitement, and the shifts were too damn long for their own good, especially given how we were forced to take a big chunk of our day for something that's just glorified shadowing. Four hour shifts would have been just as informative as eight hour ones without all the monotony. I stayed up front and asked a lot of questions, but there's only so much to discuss and ask about when you're there for 8 hrs. It's a significant chunk out of the day for very little.
As for the spanish stuff, if you want to actually make this stuff sound good try not to sound so much like a SJW. Not only is it overdone, but no adcom worth their salt is gonna fall for it, especially when it aint authentic.
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Your depiction of yourself during the program has changed markedly since you started, from 'standing in the back of the room for 8hrs' to 'I was up front asking questions the whole time.' I still think that if you couldn't manage to find any value in the experience, you weren't looking to find any (also how you managed to show interest when you don't seem to have had much, if any, is interesting on its own...I can't tell if you're exaggerating the boredom, exaggerating your participation, or were disingenuously feigning interest, in which case I'm not terribly surprised if people didn't engage in depth). My main beef on that front is that a lot of activities can be only box-checking, if you treat them as such...but they don't necessarily have to be. I think the surgical program is a great example of that. If there weren't a set period of time, I'd still be taking shifts, because I never felt as if I stopped getting something out of it.
And no, it wasn't simply that everything was new and bright and shiny. I've had plenty of exposure as well; I highly doubt that the difference between us is simply that you've seen *soooo* much more than me - in fact, given the hours you listed, I know you haven't. It's just that the surgical internship allowed me to see things that are exactly what interests me the most. I didn't run out of questions during my shifts, I didn't start finding the surgeries boring, etc. That doesn't mean I'm naive; it means I found it interesting. Those are not equivalent. Similarly, I never got bored with scribing after 1.5yrs of F/T. Sick of the low paycheck and long commute? Yes. Sick of the hospital portion? Nope. I still found it energizing, and hated leaving. I understand what it is you think explains my interest, but that simply wasn't it. I wasn't interested because it was new, I was interested because there was always something more to see or hear or discuss. Conversely, I got sick of both of my hospital volunteering positions because there was nobody available to help me learn more about what was going on. I was on my own, and after a while the novelty of examining adorable newborns wore off. I wanted to ask questions and see something beyond one part of the process. So I get what you're describing...it just doesn't apply in this case.
Furthermore, no...I don't think that you being accepted means you know any more about this ridiculous process. I'm having a 'rough cycle' (though I wouldn't actually describe it as such) because 8yrs ago, before I ever even considered going to med school, I didn't gaf about grades and was a B student who partied. That's it. Sure, you've got plenty of ground over 8-yrs-ago-me, but so does current-me. So please, get off your gorram high horse about having been accepted when it is absolutely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Finally, I'm not sure how saying "I want to learn Spanish to use with future patients" is a bad thing. I worked in CA hospitals near a rural area. I saw first-hand exactly how much of an impact this sort of thing can/does have on patients and their treatment, and I decided it was important to me to take the time to become fluent. I guess I don't gaf if that makes me a SJW.
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And for everyone who isn't Goldslugs, the last paragraph above seems like an important distinction to me: I feel that there is a difference between a quick trip where you get *feels* from helping people (potentially in a very short term way) and one which you undertake in order to actually learn a new skill or perspective. Your warm fuzzies aren't going to help anyone when you come back home, even if you truly did help a handful of people on your trip. Learning to communicate, whether explicitly by breaking a language barrier, or subtly by broadening your perspective and learning to relate to people with different backgrounds from your own - that can make a difference throughout your career. And it's hard to tell, just from a description of the trip, what the person took away from the experience. That's what makes this such a mess to discuss in an admissions context.
