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Okay I have noticed that very few people enter psychiatry to do certain subspecialties. In fact many enter wanting to do child.

So my question is this. Why is forensics become so popular during psych residency. Any honest opinion would be appreciated. Perhaps this is a testament for the lack of interest in the other subspecialties.

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Here's my theories:
1) People are fascinated with crime and the legal system, hence the number of investigative forensic shows out there.

2) Money: private forensic practice pays well.

3) Psychiatrists are sick of malingerers in clinical practice without getting any real guidance on detecting malingering and confronting the issue. In fact several clinicians believe that they should never be in a position to expose it because we're not supposed to judge against patients. (I disagree with that idea--IMHO to give a false diagnosis, and believe it is false is a form of potential medical fraud when you bill for a disorder, and it leads to several harmful problems such as enabling the person to believe they are psychiatrically ill with a disorder they do not have, and you will enable further negative behaviors which are harmful to the patient).
There are several factors playing against a doctor that puts malingering on a patient's record. Forensic fellowships usually teach the detection of malingering.

These are the reasons why I went into forensics. From anectdotal experience I'd say #1 & 2 are the larger reasons for other people. I've rarely seen people go into it for #3. Hey, maybe it's just me, but it was a pet peeve of mine when I'd see residents and attendings believe their patient was malingering, but still put an Axis I diagnosis of a severe mental illness, and not address their suspicions in the medical chart.

If you go into forensics for #2-I'll burst the bubble right here. Don't go into it for that reason. With the dramatic upshift in people going into forensics, I don't know how lucrative private forensic practice will be in 5-10 years--the amount of time it'll take for someone to get enough experience to start a private practice unless you're in an extremely underserved area such as Oklahoma or Iowa.

As I write this, there are probably about 1700 board certified forensic psychiatrists in the US. How do I know this? A buddy of mine just passed his board exam a few months ago and he was #17XX. That number will probably be at least doubled if not tripled in the next 10 years.

Several forensic psychiatrists I know end up working for the state--getting the same exact amount of money as a regular general psychiatrist, but having to spend an extra 5 hrs a week doing reports in addition to their clinical duties...i.e. more responsibility, more work--but the same amount of pay vs the next guy.

If you're going into it solely for the money-you're likely going to end up being a hired gun/defense-prosecution *****.

For the amount of time and effort you need to put into a fellowship, if you're in it for the money, I say open up a suboxone clinic--which will be just as lucrative, will not require an extra year of training where you're pretty much a resident for another year (yeah I know the term fellow is different, but face it, you're really a resident), and justice will be served. Society needs more suboxone clinics. Society does not need more forensic hired guns.
 
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I've come across a few mental health professionals where at least IMHO there was enough data to believe the person was a hired gun, and willing to fudge on a report where the person in question did a serious crime. If it happens once, ok, maybe I'm wrong. If it happens multiple times, and the person receives a nice payment, that's different.

This is with the full admission that all forensic doctors will at some point be biased against any expert witness on the other side in court. It's also with the full disclosure that I still have plenty to learn in the field.....

It's especially disgusting when you see someone write a report that is not intellectually honest when the person is alleged to have done something such as an aggravated assault, armed robbery etc. The alternative-being honest will still afford you a nice and very comfortable 6 figure salary. IMHO making an extra hundred thousand a year is not worth it to fudge on a report when I can make over 200K doing otherwise. I don't think it should even be a question of more money or not. You can make plenty of money in psychiatry in fields that require less training and work vs. forensics.

I don't see it everyday, but I do see it about every few months.
 
Another issue to consider in the forensic $ crowd is the ramifications of new legislation. Some states have passed laws to cut back on the hired gun effect that requires expert witnesses to have so much of their practice be clinical practice and advancing the field of medicine. http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2009/11/23/prsk1126.htm Check out this article from the AMA.

My interpretation of this article and possible legislative movement is that no one will really be just an expert witness anymore. People will continue to be clinician/academians who have a little extra work on the side as a witness. Recognizing the amount of work that is needed and the limited amount a person could feasibly do, I predict this work will have no choice but be distributed out amongst the normal every day practicing docs as lawyers start knocking down doors.
 
Forensics pays well..but is it possible to do general psych and or consult psych and start out at 200+k
 
Another issue to consider in the forensic $ crowd is the ramifications of new legislation. Some states have passed laws to cut back on the hired gun effect that requires expert witnesses to have so much of their practice be clinical practice and advancing the field of medicine. http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/200...3/prsk1126.htm Check out this article from the AMA.

For a forensic lesson that's beyond what you will have to know in general psychiatry, some states have adopted what is called the Daubert standard, which is in short, real science. An expert witness can only as an expert witness state things which reach a higher quality such as being peer reviewed, accepted in journals, falsifiable, etc.

Other states, and unfortunately some of the biggest and most populated sucn as California still adhere to a Frye standard which means that the comment need only be "generally accepted." This is where the Dr. Phils, the Dr. Lauras and other people willing to give less than scientific opinions can get away with more.

You still can get away with BS with a state adopting a Daubert standard, it's just harder to do so.

I've seen some ridiculous expert witness testimony from hired guns from states with a Frye standard. So ridiculous you'd laugh or cry when you take into account the person was making a few hundred an hour making the ridiculous comments over such as serious issue.

If you don't know what I'm talking about here's some BS:-Mr. X shouldn't be executed. He's a coward. In my psychiatric opinion he's a coward.-

Hmm, where in the DSM is cowardice defined? Where has it been studied? Can you bring up an article where cowardice was scientifically gauged?

Or, the infamous Dr. Griggson, a psychiatrist who testified in several Texas cases that he could say with medical 100% (that's 100%, not 99%) certainty that a person would commit murder again, even though he had no way he could scientifically back up that statement. And yes, people did get the Texas Justice book thrown at them as a result of his expert witness testimony.
 
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Forensics pays well..but is it possible to do general psych and or consult psych and start out at 200+k
I did, right off residency and fellowship. But it was mainly inpatient private psychiatric hospital in a rural sagebrush state. And 8-5 doesn't exist.

Eventually, I couldn't stand selling my soul, took a pay cut, and now I am the psychiatrist in a community health center where my best-off patients are the medicaid ones and nobody tells me what to do. :) I feel much more OK with that, but they can't afford the 210K I got from the inpatient unit.
 
So is strictly outpatient gig $120 or closer to 180
 
From what I've seen and heard 200k+ is pretty common and you are able to work 8-5 with none to minimal call and weekends off
 
For the amount of time and effort you need to put into a fellowship, if you're in it for the money, I say open up a suboxone clinic--which will be just as lucrative, will not require an extra year of training where you're pretty much a resident for another year (yeah I know the term fellow is different, but face it, you're really a resident), and justice will be served. Society needs more suboxone clinics. Society does not need more forensic hired guns.


I thought you need to do a fellowship in addiction in order to be eligible for a suboxone licence?? What kind of money are we talking here?:D
 
I thought you need to do a fellowship in addiction in order to be eligible for a suboxone licence?? What kind of money are we talking here?:D

First off--Suboxone can be prescribed by any physician with a valid DEA who takes a very non-intense 8 hr training course and applies to the DEA for a waiver allowing them to prescribe. That's the potential beauty of it--opiate detos and maintenance in your PCP's office. Suboxone is not going to make anybody rich (except maybe Reckitt-Benckiser). Initially you can manage no more than 30 patients at one time on the med, which can be increased to 100 after a period of time. And these are outpatients--so they're seen with less frequency as stability allows. So Suboxone is not going to be a cash cow for you.

My thumbs-up is to indicate that I would like to see FAR more docs taking this training and getting the waiver. It boggles my mind that any yahoo with a DEA# can prescribe 100 Percocet without anyone flinching, but we have so much mystique and mystery around this partial agonist designed to actually get people OFF of long term opiates.
 
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First off--Suboxone can be prescribed by any physician with a valid DEA who takes a very non-intense 8 hr training course and applies to the DEA for a waiver allowing them to prescribe. That's the potential beauty of it--opiate detos and maintenance in your PCP's office. Suboxone is not going to make anybody rich (except maybe Reckitt-Benckiser). Initially you can manage no more than 30 patients at one time on the med, which can be increased to 100 after a period of time. And these are outpatients--so they're seen with less frequency as stability allows. So Suboxone is not going to be a cash cow for you.

My thumbs-up is to indicate that I would like to see FAR more docs taking this training and getting the waiver. It boggles my mind that any yahoo with a DEA# can prescribe 100 Percocet without anyone flinching, but we have so much mystique and mystery around this partial agonist designed to actually get people OFF of long term opiates.

Goes back to the rule that a physician can prescribe anything to anyone for anything EXCEPT for opiates to an addict to manage withdrawal.
 
Goes back to the rule that a physician can prescribe anything to anyone for anything EXCEPT for opiates to an addict to manage withdrawal.

It makes sense when you think about the fact that the majority of methadone is sold on the streets.

It saddens me to know that buprenorphine has a street value. :(
 
"Don't hate the player; hate the game."
It's just the nature of the disease--addiction--that is responsible for this.

You are right, of course.

Honestly, addiction is one of the big draws of the field for me. I'm all for more available suboxone providers but what's the point of prescribing the meds if you don't also make sure the patient's coping skills are addressed? This should stretch beyond a few hours online of training and thus I think should really be the purview of the psychiatrist especially given the prevalence of another overlapping psych diagnosis.
 
You are right, of course.

Honestly, addiction is one of the big draws of the field for me. I'm all for more available suboxone providers but what's the point of prescribing the meds if you don't also make sure the patient's coping skills are addressed? This should stretch beyond a few hours online of training and thus I think should really be the purview of the psychiatrist especially given the prevalence of another overlapping psych diagnosis.

To get the waiver you need to attest that you can refer to psychosocial treatment. Obviously that can be taken many different ways--from integrating your care with a treatment program, and d/c-ing the meds if they don't comply, to asking if they attend NA and not actually caring how they answer. The point is, we don't stop prescribing controlled substances appropriately for our patients just because there's a bunch of abusers out there.
 
Honestly, addiction is one of the big draws of the field for me. I'm all for more available suboxone providers but what's the point of prescribing the meds if you don't also make sure the patient's coping skills are addressed?

Isn't suboxone basically a coping skill in a pill?

I mean, it's much better than the alternative. And believe me, I am FILLED with government conspiracy theories re: suboxone!
 
When a legal counsel decides to hire a forensic psychiatrist, what kind of characteristics do they value? For example, do they look for the cheaper guy or hired gun-type or do they actually value academic accomplishments, research experience, years in the field?

Would a strong background in research related to the field make one more desirable as a witness?
 
For example, do they look for the cheaper guy or hired gun-type or do they actually value academic accomplishments, research experience, years in the field?

Would a strong background in research related to the field make one more desirable as a witness?

YEs and yes and yes. All depends on the lawyer, the specifics of the situation such as how desperate, honest the attorney is, the seriousness of the situation etc.

Here's what encourages the hired gun phenomenon:
If you're a lawyer and you hire an honest forensic psychiatrist to see if your client deserves to an insanity defense, the forensic psychiatrist bills $350/hr, and after 30 hrs of work (that's a bill over $10K!), finds the person does not qualify for the defense, as a lawyer (and it's the lawyer who pays the forensic psychiatrist) you might not want to hire that psychiatrist again.

I've already had a few situations where the lawyer was extremely upset with me because I did not find anything they could use for a legitimate defense for their client. I wasn't even being paid by the lawyer. In these cases so far, the lawyer and the psychiatrist (me) were state appointed. I could only imagine what a lawyer's attitude would be had I not given them anything they could use and then give the guy a 10K bill.

So as a forensic psychiatrist, you can be hurting your marketability among the less scrupulous lawyers. They'll know not to hire you.

There are of course dynamics that push the other way. If you ***** yourself out, other lawyers and judges will figure out you're a *****. However, and this seems to be the case in several areas, if you're the only forensic psychiatrist in town, you can do this can it's easier to get away with it because there's no one else lawyers can hire.

I was in a situation where I was doing training with 2 forensic psychiatrists (not in my current program--everyone in my program as far as I can tell are very honest). One told me the other pretty much was a defense *****, and even told me several lawyers and judges felt the same. I saw a lot of evidence backing that up, yet that person was making tons of money, and continued to get hired.

A strong background in research does make one a more marketable psychiatrist. It adds credibility to the witness. E.g. A Phil Resnick will have a strong credibility, and someone like that is able command a lot of respect because of his professionalism and honesty.
 
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Here's my theories:


3) Psychiatrists are sick of malingerers in clinical practice without getting any real guidance on detecting malingering and confronting the issue. In fact several clinicians believe that they should never be in a position to expose it because we're not supposed to judge against patients. (I disagree with that idea--IMHO to give a false diagnosis, and believe it is false is a form of potential medical fraud when you bill for a disorder, and it leads to several harmful problems such as enabling the person to believe they are psychiatrically ill with a disorder they do not have, and you will enable further negative behaviors which are harmful to the patient).
There are several factors playing against a doctor that puts malingering on a patient's record. Forensic fellowships usually teach the detection of malingering.



Are you talking about true malingering, or something like factitious d or just run of the mill somatizers, or even just your general personality disordered person? If you are talking about true malingering, it is usually relatively feasible to tell if you do a thorough psychological assessment on them. Now, those somatizers are a different story. I agree with you - telling them the truth about the low possibility that their symptoms are solely physically based can often be very very helpful to patients (if done the right way). I have had some folks like that who were eventually relieved by the information. Of course we judge patients....but they should be judged fairly and with as little bias as possible.
 
Here's my theories:


3) Psychiatrists are sick of malingerers in clinical practice without getting any real guidance on detecting malingering and confronting the issue. In fact several clinicians believe that they should never be in a position to expose it because we're not supposed to judge against patients. (I disagree with that idea--IMHO to give a false diagnosis, and believe it is false is a form of potential medical fraud when you bill for a disorder, and it leads to several harmful problems such as enabling the person to believe they are psychiatrically ill with a disorder they do not have, and you will enable further negative behaviors which are harmful to the patient).
There are several factors playing against a doctor that puts malingering on a patient's record. Forensic fellowships usually teach the detection of malingering.



Are you talking about true malingering, or something like factitious d or just run of the mill somatizers, or even just your general personality disordered person? If you are talking about true malingering, it is usually relatively feasible to tell if you do a thorough psychological assessment on them. Now, those somatizers are a different story. I agree with you - telling them the truth about the low possibility that their symptoms are solely physically based can often be very very helpful to patients (if done the right way). I have had some folks like that who were eventually relieved by the information. Of course we judge patients....but they should be judged fairly and with as little bias as possible.

Is there some magical fairyland where psychologists come to the ER to test patients suspected of malingering?
 
Are you talking about true malingering, or something like factitious d or just run of the mill somatizers, or even just your general personality disordered person? If you are talking about true malingering, it is usually relatively feasible to tell if you do a thorough psychological assessment on them. Now, those somatizers are a different story. I agree with you - telling them the truth about the low possibility that their symptoms are solely physically based can often be very very helpful to patients (if done the right way). I have had some folks like that who were eventually relieved by the information. Of course we judge patients....but they should be judged fairly and with as little bias as possible.

I am talking about true malingering--if I understand you correctly. (What's the alternative, false malingering?

When a clinician suspects a patient of malingering, the doctor must have an extremely large amount of evidence to back it up. The danger of confronting someone who is not malingering, and calling them one is extremely damaging to that patient. You would be in essence calling them a liar, and if they weren't lying, geez, you called them a liar in their time of need. IMHO, that data must be beyond a reasonable doubt due to the damage that could possibly happen if the doctor is wrong. Even then, you should do what you can to help them within responsible and appropriate practice. E.g. if someone malingered suicidal ideation to get 3 hots and a cot, refer them to the rescue mission a supportive manner (if possible).

The issue that I mentioned bugged me in residency because there were several clinicians I saw who believed their patient was malingering, but did little if anything about it. They just kept seeing the patient, billing that patient as depressive, mood, impulse control, anxiety do NOS (or as one of the nurse managers called it FOS--Full of $hit) Or they played hardball, without being able to demonstrate a formal way to prove the person was malingering that IMHO would stand up in court.

If they had a valid reason that'd be one thing, but in most cases, the clinician seemed to not know what to do because that clinician was not trained to assess malingering or knew who to contact to do an assessment of malingering.

In some cases, it was more than just a suspicion. The clinician was very convinced of malingering, yet did nothing to stop the cycle.

If I never entered forensic fellowship, I knew that as a clinician, the idea of not being able to tell a malingerer to a degree that I felt was strong enough to survive a Daubert standard and my own ethical standard would eat me up inside. Even if I never worked in forensics and did 100% clinical, the ability to detect malingering and evaluate it--along scientific standards that would meet specificities and sensitivities of well over 90% to me would've been worth it.

As Doc Samson alluded (I think, I apologize if I'm wrong), in a hospital situation it is difficult to do the formal testing. A proper evaluation can take several days and several hours of testing by a clinician who can bill for tremendous amounts of money. Assume that the testing overwhelming shows the patient is a malingerer. Great--now you can't bill for this patient because the patient doesn't suffer from a severe mental illness.
 
The TOMM is the test of malingered memory. It will not help in the situation you mentioned.

There are specific tests depending on what type of illness the person feigns. For example if the person is faking psychotic symptoms, you would use the SIRS (Structured Interview of Reported Symptoms). If they are feigning memory problems, you would use the TOMM (Test of Malingered Memory). Since the SIRS is a rather lengthy and cumbersome a shorter test is the M-FAST (Miller Forensic Assessment of Symptoms Test™) Though the M-FAST is not as accurate and in depth as the SIRS. In fact for that reason, some only use it as a screening test.

There is also what is called the Atypical Presentation Scale which is included in the Georgia Court Competency Test which helps to detect malingered psychosis in a court setting.

Here's an example of one question.

-There are charges against you. Do you confuses these charges with charges on your credit card?

Pretty much no psychotic person would answer yes. A malingerer would answer yes because they don't understand how true mental illness works and will want to appear as sick as possible.

When someone answers one question that's highly unlikely in a mentally ill person, that creates a measurable statistical chance they are malingering. These tests are to the point where they give enough questions where in several cases, one can tell if the person is malingering with well over 90% certainty. If you want to be even more certain, you can administer multiple tools--to make sure you're well past the well over the 90% cut off.

How does this apply to the pesky ER situation? Unfortunately in most cases hardly at all because you don't have the time in that environment to do the proper testing.

I discussed this with a doctor who headed a panel at the last AAPL convention on manipulative patients who attack staff in a psychiatric unit, yet are not severely mentally ill (the police usually refuse to do anything even though in these cases it's really an antisocial person who was brought to the psychiatry unit when he should've been put in jail). He answered in that situation, if you suspect it, all you can write down is that you suspect it and recommend the inpatient doctor do the formal testing. You should not play hardball unless you are extremely confident you can discharge this person safely (and there's usually no objective way to tell.) Then if the inpatient doctor did enough formal testing, he could then come up with an accurate diagnosis. Then if the malingering patient showed up to the ER again, now the ER psychiatrist could have a better handle on the situation because there would be documented testing of malingering that would well stand up in court.

However, you and I know that's usually not how it works. ER doctors don't know they should document in this way. They'll dx a severe mental illness (even if they're suspicious the person is malingering) and admit the person. Then it goes to an inpatient doctor who often times will not do malingering testing. Then the person will show up to the ER again in a few days weeks and claim to be suicidal again. A different ER psychiatrist will probably be on duty, then the person gets admitted again because 2 other doctors wrote down the person was mentally ill and suicidal--and now the vicious revolving door has begun....

(Which I saw on a daily basis in residency and it became a pet peeve.)
 
Is there some magical fairyland where psychologists come to the ER to test patients suspected of malingering?

The statement posted by whopper, and my inquiries about the post, were not related to events in the ER/ED. It was generally related to the detection of malingering. It is general knowledge that the ER/ED is not typically an appropriate place to formally assess malingering.
 
I am talking about true malingering--if I understand you correctly. (What's the alternative, false malingering?

When a clinician suspects a patient of malingering, the doctor must have an extremely large amount of evidence to back it up. The danger of confronting someone who is not malingering, and calling them one is extremely damaging to that patient. You would be in essence calling them a liar, and if they weren't lying, geez, you called them a liar in their time of need. IMHO, that data must be beyond a reasonable doubt due to the damage that could possibly happen if the doctor is wrong. Even then, you should do what you can to help them within responsible and appropriate practice. E.g. if someone malingered suicidal ideation to get 3 hots and a cot, refer them to the rescue mission a supportive manner (if possible).

The issue that I mentioned bugged me in residency because there were several clinicians I saw who believed their patient was malingering, but did little if anything about it. They just kept seeing the patient, billing that patient as depressive, mood, impulse control, anxiety do NOS (or as one of the nurse managers called it FOS--Full of $hit) Or they played hardball, without being able to demonstrate a formal way to prove the person was malingering that IMHO would stand up in court.

If they had a valid reason that'd be one thing, but in most cases, the clinician seemed to not know what to do because that clinician was not trained to assess malingering or knew who to contact to do an assessment of malingering.

In some cases, it was more than just a suspicion. The clinician was very convinced of malingering, yet did nothing to stop the cycle.

If I never entered forensic fellowship, I knew that as a clinician, the idea of not being able to tell a malingerer to a degree that I felt was strong enough to survive a Daubert standard and my own ethical standard would eat me up inside. Even if I never worked in forensics and did 100% clinical, the ability to detect malingering and evaluate it--along scientific standards that would meet specificities and sensitivities of well over 90% to me would've been worth it.

As Doc Samson alluded (I think, I apologize if I'm wrong), in a hospital situation it is difficult to do the formal testing. A proper evaluation can take several days and several hours of testing by a clinician who can bill for tremendous amounts of money. Assume that the testing overwhelming shows the patient is a malingerer. Great--now you can't bill for this patient because the patient doesn't suffer from a severe mental illness.

I see what you are referring to in this situation. I asked the previous question as I was unclear whether or not you were talking about the somatoforms or the factitious folks or the actual diagnosis of Malingering (what I called "true" malingering in my PP). My purpose in asking the question regarding the differentiation is my own "stuff" as I often find myself explaining to med students, psychology students, residents, etc. how to work with those intentionally feigning for profit or for attention, and then those who have psychogenic influences that aren't intentionally feigning, they only look like they are.

I do agree that it is frustrating when dealing with those people in ER/ED situations as they clog up the system when they only want a hot and a cot. To work with professionals who only add to the problem would be highly irritating. To see the same patient every time it gets cold would get old really fast. I sometimes work with cops and they often say they hate the "but I'm going to commit suicide" calls that they are almost positive are fake. Of course, they have to treat them like they are real and do the two hours worth of paperwork and waiting.
 
IMHO, the best way to deal with a chronic malingerer is for the healthcare institution to create a list of suspected malingerers, or at least a malingerer policy, where if one doctor suspects it in one setting, the rest are alerted.

In the ER--> short term facility ---> discharge setting, malingerers cycle through the revolving door often because the doctors in each setting do not communicate well with each other.
E.g. Like I said, if the ER doctor suspects malingering, he needs to report it so the next doctor who actually has the time to do it can proceed. Then that doctor needs to do the appropriate actions to rule it out that can be done within a few days, but can't be done in an ER setting. When the malingering patient shows up to the ER again, the ER psychiatrist has more to work with than just a couple of hours of observation.

The purpose is not to punish these people, but to point out that these people need a strong continuity of care to break the revolving door cycle where by the time all the doctors at the site become convinced the patient is a malingerer, there are now 5 (or more) doctors in that system who all gave the person a wrong diagnosis, which then further reinforces some doctors to continue the problem. Better to keep it under the rug than be the first one to stand up and expose the Emporer's New Clothes.

Since most psychiatrists are not forensically trained, I doubt this will occur, and in fact, in most cases, this will actually financially hurt the institution. If you have someone chronically coming in--it makes the hospital more money so long as you can get them out before medicare refuses to pay for longer stay.

It's an issue that IMHO people need to address, but won't because in essence it'll point out too many people who are involved in making it the way it currently is. I've seen too many situations where everyone was convinced the patient was malingering, but the attending refused to put it down on the report.
 
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