will a peer-reviewed publication at a non-reputable journal useful for residency?

[Lawpy]

Really? You know this for a fact? 🙂

Here are two points to consider on the other side of the coin. Nobody is a PI without having legitimate publications in high-impact journals. If once in a while you publish in a crap journal, nobody is going to care or notice because they're going to focus on the shiny publications in good journals. You're going to do fine getting grants based on those. Hell if it's really a problem, they can just leave it off their CV.

Also, being a PI means that you have to consider the careers of the people working under you, and when you are working with a med student/resident, sometimes they just need to get *something* published for their next application. Maybe the PI doesn't want to spend 9 months shopping the paper around a bunch of impact factor 1.5-2 journals. Maybe they just want to get the paper published before the OP leaves. Maybe the PI knows in their heart of hearts that the project isn't really publishable, but doesn't want the trainee to come up empty handed.

So sure, in a perfect lollypop world, every paper is done with perfect design from the onset, includes all of the appropriate controls and passes a robust peer-review process. But bottom line, sometimes you just need to get even the back-back-backburner projects published somewhere and be done with it. You're not going to make a career out of publishing in predatory journals, but doing it occasionally to help a trainee get a paper out on a reasonable timeline can be reasonable. If the trainee later decides they want to pursue an academic career, they have ample time to publish in legit journals later, but RIGHT NOW they may just need something for their ERAS application.

There are good, non predatory journals that will take in even poor studies if they're written well and done right (this happens even at NEJM - see the crappy retracted covid studies). Yes i'm willing to claim that PIs do their best to avoid predatory journals at any cost because it doesn't make sense to spend all that time and effort on a study (even a crap, poorly designed one) just to push it to a crap predatory journal that'll take it.

Good PIs who are generally respected are likely going to know what journals will be willing to take in their work even if it isn't great (or even send it to a journal where they're on the editorial board). If a PI knows a project isn't publishable, the best attempt is to probably shelve it early on well before it hits the writing stage (i had this happen to me it sucks), and instead help the trainees by giving them promising publishable work.

I don't have anything to lose if the right decision is to list every single pub on ERAS even if that includes predatory journals. I'm just depressed and frustrated at the continued degradation of science just to pad ERAS

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[Lawpy]

If the name sounds like the dozens of predatory journals that email me daily asking for submissions I assume it's crap (sorry OP but this one fits the bill). Honestly I'd rather be published in the osteopathic journal than a predatory one.

I do agree PDs largely will be too lazy to look it up though.

There's no way I can hunt down all the journals people publish in. However, the more bizarre the journal name or the paper title, the more likely I am to look. And, the person that interviews you is likely to look -- which ultimately gets reported back.

It's unlikely to hurt. Will it really make any difference? probably not.

In that case, i think the best bet is to list the pubmed id numbers and call it a day, since most pubmed indexed journals are credible

 

[GoSpursGo]

There are good, non predatory journals that will take in even poor studies if they're written well and done right (this happens even at NEJM - see the crappy retracted covid studies). Yes i'm willing to claim that PIs do their best to avoid predatory journals at any cost because it doesn't make sense to spend all that time and effort on a study (even a crap, poorly designed one) just to push it to a crap predatory journal that'll take it.

Good PIs who are generally respected are likely going to know what journals will be willing to take in their work even if it isn't great (or even send it to a journal where they're on the editorial board). If a PI knows a project isn't publishable, the best attempt is to probably shelve it early on well before it hits the writing stage (i had this happen to me it sucks), and instead help the trainees by giving them promising publishable work.

I don't have anything to lose if the right decision is to list every single pub on ERAS even if that includes predatory journals. I'm just depressed and frustrated at the continued degradation of science just to pad ERAS

Not every study done by a trainee is written well or done right. Most aren't. And PIs probably don't spend much if any time on a med student project, so it's no cost to them.

Yeah, it's clearly a problem for science writ large that these predatory journals exist, and that such a heavy weight is placed on research in the residency application process. But taking a stand comes with a real cost to the trainees under you.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

If it doesn’t have a PMID, it kinda doesn’t count.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

In that case, i think the best bet is to list the pubmed id numbers and call it a day, since most pubmed indexed journals are credible

On ERAS when you list a pub there is a place to put in the PMID. So the info is right there if a PD or interviewer wants it. I will say my publications came up in every interview and one APD had clearly actually read one of my papers in its entirety, so I don’t think we need to get the outrage machine up and running thinking people are just listing predatory journal pubs and getting tons of credit for them.

 

[GoSpursGo]

On ERAS when you list a pub there is a place to put in the PMID. So the info is right there if a PD or interviewer wants it. I will say my publications came up in every interview and one APD had clearly actually read one of my papers in its entirety, so I don’t think we need to get the outrage machine up and running thinking people are just listing predatory journal pubs and getting tons of credit for them.

And really, this. To be completely clear, everyone should try to publish in reputable journals. It looks better for all involved. If you are unable to get published in reputable journals or are extremely pressed to get a minor project published in time for a trainee's application, it isn't some terrible sin to on rare occasion consider one of these lesser journals.

 

[futureapppsy2]

And really, this. To be completely clear, everyone should try to publish in reputable journals. It looks better for all involved. If you are unable to get published in reputable journals or are extremely pressed to get a minor project published in time for a trainee's application, it isn't some terrible sin to on rare occasion consider one of these lesser journals.

I agree in general, but I'd say that lesser journals should still be *legitimate.* For example, I submitted a manuscript to a lesser (but still indexed/reputable) journal recently, got back solid, helpful reviews, and re-submitted. Is it going to be a highlight of my CV? No, but it's clinically interesting data I want to get out there.

On the other hand, I had a professor in grad school submit a manuscript I was an author on to a predatory, pay-to-publish journal. We got back reviews for the wrong manuscript, and when we pointed this out, the "real" reviews we got back were two sentences long and so generic that they could have been for any manuscript. Confusingly, the professor saw no issue with this. I just leave that manuscript off my CV, honestly.

 

[Animalcules]

If it doesn’t have a PMID, it kinda doesn’t count.

Nature Cancer has entered the chat.

 

[Lawpy]

On ERAS when you list a pub there is a place to put in the PMID. So the info is right there if a PD or interviewer wants it. I will say my publications came up in every interview and one APD had clearly actually read one of my papers in its entirety, so I don’t think we need to get the outrage machine up and running thinking people are just listing predatory journal pubs and getting tons of credit for them.

Well that's sort of reassuring because it fits my point that PDs aren't dumb and can tell good research apart from crap. Like i said, i have nothing to lose but sometimes stepping back and realizing how the residency process is corrupting research and encouraging bad practices that feed predatory journals is important.

 

[Lawpy]

Nature Cancer has entered the chat.

Isn't that a new journal

Its also pubmed indexed

"Nat Cancer"[jour] - Search Results - PubMed

"Nat Cancer"[jour] - Search Results - PubMed

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Animalcules]

Isn't that a new journal

Yes, just pointing out the limitation of judging by PMID.

Im glad I’m not a PD because I seem to be pretty harsh and would uninvite all applicants that try to showcase the predatory journal publications to get an edge. It’s really not so hard to publish in a real journal, so I assume you are ignorant or lazy. But I’m apparently a minority.

 

[Lawpy]

Yes, just pointing out the limitation of judging by PMID.

Im glad I’m not a PD because I seem to be pretty harsh and would uninvite all applicants that try to showcase the predatory journal publications to get an edge. It’s really not so hard to publish in a real journal, so I assume you are ignorant or lazy. But I’m apparently a minority.

That journal is pubmed indexed (see edited post above). I think reviewers can tell the newness by looking at year and volume number, so it's generally ok.

Also i completely agree with your thoughts. The sympathy for predatory journals is likely an SDN only phenomenon because it's so contradictory to my irl experiences that it's bizarre. Every mentor and attending i worked with was determined to publish in a good journal and work really hard to avoid predatory journals. Even the worst project in lowest journal ever received detailed reviews and feedback.

 

[Redpancreas]

There are good, non predatory journals that will take in even poor studies if they're written well and done right (this happens even at NEJM - see the crappy retracted covid studies). Yes i'm willing to claim that PIs do their best to avoid predatory journals at any cost because it doesn't make sense to spend all that time and effort on a study (even a crap, poorly designed one) just to push it to a crap predatory journal that'll take it.

Good PIs who are generally respected are likely going to know what journals will be willing to take in their work even if it isn't great (or even send it to a journal where they're on the editorial board). If a PI knows a project isn't publishable, the best attempt is to probably shelve it early on well before it hits the writing stage (i had this happen to me it sucks), and instead help the trainees by giving them promising publishable work.

I don't have anything to lose if the right decision is to list every single pub on ERAS even if that includes predatory journals. I'm just depressed and frustrated at the continued degradation of science just to pad ERAS

Before I make this point, let me note that I love NEJM and highly value their work and the peer review behind it but the COVID crisis has really revealed how publishing in the journal is political. They look at your pedigree. If that wasn't the case, OKSU DO school students/faculty would be publishing there at times.

 

[Lawpy]

Before I make this point, let me note that I love NEJM and highly value their work and the peer review behind it but the COVID crisis has really revealed how publishing in the journal is political. They look at your pedigree. If that wasn't the case, OKSU DO school students/faculty would be publishing there at times.

Yep top journals are elitist and are ideal dumping grounds for top tier places even if their studies are badly designed or worse... illegally obtained/fabricated.

Top journals, top schools and NIH R01 awards form a powerful circlejerking effect

 

[TelemarketingEnigma]

Abstracts/posters, even school posters, are legit research though.

lol, I have seen plenty of crap posters especially at school/med student focused research conferences. There's many good ones too, but there's tons of resume bloat on display that's not always better than predatory journal pubs. I find the med student publishing race incredibly frustrating because it leads to some really awful work, but I understand the individual motivations to do it

If it doesn’t have a PMID, it kinda doesn’t count.

I have a publication in a major journal for my field that for whatever reason hasn't been indexed in pubmed like it should be and it's been so annoying (I promise it's real, ERAS reviewers!!) Our senior author has been annoyedly emailing the editors for months trying to get it properly indexed...

Before I make this point, let me note that I love NEJM and highly value their work and the peer review behind it but the COVID crisis has really revealed how publishing in the journal is political. They look at your pedigree.

Can confirm this is true for pretty much all major journals - big name authors/pedigree will carry you far

 

[Lawpy]

lol, I have seen plenty of crap posters especially at school/med student focused research conferences. There's many good ones too, but there's tons of resume bloat on display that's not always better than predatory journal pubs. I find the med student publishing race incredibly frustrating because it leads to some really awful work, but I understand the individual motivations to do it

Hmm i agree mostly there's a lot of crap but the difference for me lies that there's a commonly agreed view that school posters aren't weighed anything other than something better than nothing. But publishing in a predatory journal is almost always viewed to be a very bad thing, so comparatively, school posters > predatory pubs even though they both suck.

Also school posters are way cheaper or even free vs pricey predatory pubs.

 

[ACSurgeon]

The real question is: can we make a list of third tier trash journals that must be avoided?

 

[Lawpy]

The real question is: can we make a list of third tier trash journals that must be avoided?

Beall's List – of Potential Predatory Journals and Publishers

beallslist.net

 

[Redpancreas]

Beall's List – of Potential Predatory Journals and Publishers

beallslist.net

They should incorporate it into the ERAS residency/fellowship application. It could be simply done.


1.) If your publication is on this list (NEJM, JAMA, Nature, ACC), please list in this space.
2.) If your publication is from a journal listed in this link (above), please list it here.
3.) Please list all other pubs here.

 

[sipping_cipro]

OP, if your PI can scrape up the fee, ~1500, maybe try PLOS One.

Try this list too Journal Rankings on Physical Therapy, Sports Therapy and Rehabilitation since it sounds like you're in the rehab category. Alternatively, look at where the articles you are citing are published and try those places. You have even started med school yet, right? You can afford to have this article bounce around until a journal accepts it, there is no time crunch for you.

Or better yet, if you have a health sciences library at your institution, ask the librarians, they will gladly help.