Will initial US applicants dip below 152?
Started by 2021Doctor
I say yes. I'm basing this off of the complete lack of chatter on the google doc spread sheet, which I'm sure correlates with applicant interest. I'm sure there are those on this forum that have better first hand knowledge regarding the number of applications their programs are seeing.
We'll get a signal on Wednesday when each program finds out how many applied to their respective institution, I think probably <100.
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deleted941485
Yeah I remember that spreadsheet being more lively than the actual forum. Makes you not want to even bother anymore
Even if initial US applicants drops to 10, you know and I know that programs will fill up . . . by any means necessary.
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deleted941485
Oh but but what about demonstrated interest?! Oh what about usmle scores and thank you letters and publications!!
And the gap year.
Not sure there are enough folks that pass the TOEFL and a criminal background check for that
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deleted941485
Can we merge with Med onc already? I’m getting tired of the annual sob fest that is pure RO.
I can just imagine all the crushed egos if all the sodden formerly independent department chairs became lowly section chiefs.
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One to two year fellowship after general radiology training. Many radiologist already do (acgme accredited) fellowships and this would be in line with that. As BC/BE radiologist would be the only applicants able to apply market forces would finally be able to play out in our labor market. I realize this is not a popular view point and would require a huge check of egos but such is the mess that the “leadership” has created.
then what about rad onc who are already practicing? go back to do radiology fellowship?
Most of us who've been out enough years are pretty well settled, but basically the chance of lateraling into an equivalent job in terms of pay, hours, structure, geography etc has disappeared/significantly been diminished.
This is really a bigger problem for more recent and soon to be graduating residents
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deleted941485
Its gonna be painful either way. You can stay until the ship sinks if you're close to retirement or you can head back to retrain and eat the opportunity costs. Im only a few years out and it just isn't realistic that the job would even exist in its current form, desirable to work in its current form, or be its own freestanding specialty. So I guess im willing to stomach retraining if it means long run a better field with more options.
I'll tell you. The PD at the place I currently work at is actively trying to recruit any medical student to look into the field, and I quote, "they need to get past the jobs' thing."
Said it before, and I'll say it again, they don't care about you, it's all about them. You're just a pawn in this game of theirs.
If I was a medical student, I would never look at this field unless there's a valid contract guaranteeing a job after residency.
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deleted941485
God what a bunch of entitled needy med students - They need to get past making a living
Grandfathered in. I believe anyone who is a BC radiologist before like 1974 can practice rad onc if they choose. I’ve met a few of these old timers who started practicing rad onc without official rad onc residency training. Just basically got grandfathersed in after it became its own speciality.
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A 2 year fellowship after radiology would be interesting IF there was a guarantee of >650k salary after completion for all graduates in any job market. It would be fun to be an “oncologic radiologist” where you or your coworkers ID patients with cancer based on imaging, immediately follow up with patients to explain results and this not depend on referrals from other specialties, then can begin treatment if indicated quickly and in concert with other specialties. I think people would consider that and I would too.
I am not sure why rad Onc didn’t do like nuclear medicine (now a branch of radiology that’s just 1 year fellowship instead of 3 year residency) and start this process.
I am not sure why rad Onc didn’t do like nuclear medicine (now a branch of radiology that’s just 1 year fellowship instead of 3 year residency) and start this process.
Nuc med used to be it's own specialty it's pretty much dead... Only way to do nucs and have a viable job is off rads
Ya that’s why I’m saying that rad onc needs to just be a fellowship off rads too if y’all are struggling so much. Maybe this year will be the year the chairs start seeing it as an issue as well. I’m sorry they have been poor leaders.
I think the field would have to essentially implode before our “leadership” would actually get on board with this idea. We are a decade plus from that happening in my estimation. There are still plenty of people at the top making tons of money who really don’t want any really changes.
i think sooner than that...med students have already figured it out..no way you can soap like this for a decade
They'll keep soaping... Have you seen the kind of applicants that got in during the early to mid 70s and again in the mid to late 90s?
lol arent they mostly chairs or retired by now?
Just a few month ago on the panel with simul and bk, 2 million dollar (idiot) Lou said something to the effect: shame on us if medstudents know the job market better than us.
Shots fired
By imploding I mean reimbursements going way down, tons of our current bread and butter cases going to 5 or 0 fractions, large departments with declining revenue year after year resulting in job cuts and small practice closures. I’d say a decade plus away from something like that playing out.
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Therein lies the problem
PGY5 resident at what is considered a good program. Our chair wants to expand our residency program even though it is already difficult to rotate through all disease sites. We also do not have enough attendings to support more residents. There are two group of med students applying to rad onc right now: 1) stellar candidates who are too deep in and don't want to change specialties, 2) below average candidates who see rad onc as an easy out compared to other uncompetitive fields likes peds, path, FM. If I had to do it all over again, I would have done Med onc or ophtho. This field has really taken a hit, and all I see is talk and no action. By the time any action is taken, it will be too late. We will be like pathology and nuc med.
Already starting to happen. Notice any decent looking job that's posted is looking for an experienced grad
This declining interest in rad onc thing from US applicants has been going on for 3 and soon to be 4 years now. So not sure how great applicants got invested into rad onc without being fully aware of the profound issues facing the specialty. I would really question the judgement of anyone (who at least has options) willing to bet the next 25 years of their life on this.
Any program looking to expand needs to be named and shamed with great haste.
I will run and post the acgme program list again in a few months so any 2021 to 2022 expanders will be identified.
PD at Columbia thought Columbia was a good program.
Everybody thinks their program is good.
But they don't know.... they don't know what makes an actually good program.
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Would go ahead and order the tape. Maybe we can buy in bulk then splitsies to save money?
Forget buying paper tape, I'm already looking at real estate in Zihuatanejo to figure out my exit strategy
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Keep your tape I'm using all the extra penis clamps around here for immobilization. Ssssh don't tell anyone.
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deleted941485
Oh that’s Value based care!
Wait for that Amazon warehouse sale
A penis clamp on each ear to keep head still to couch. Ears are mostly clean and quick spray after can reuse on a penis. Admin bean counters will love the idea
Per program coordinator, about 25-30% drop in applications, maybe will end up being about 20% since it's day one. I'm at a mid-tier program - outside top 20.
Need moar drop. #0in2021
I am hearing from a bird significant drop with even more IMGs. This is a “top” program with about 125ish total applications. Man this will be a great SOAP to watch while I bask in our field’s swamps. Get your sippy cups folks!
At this time we probably should be graduating about 80 people a year, if that. Almost all of the current 190 residency positions will ultimately fill with someone. We have so many non essential and unnecessary programs out there that will never go away because there are zero mechanisms in place for a serious market driven contraction to take place.
Really the only question is when will things really start imploding and not if.
Really the only question is when will things really start imploding and not if.
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