Will it hurt me to include my race/ethncitiy on AMCAS APP if I'm not an URM?

[ChemEngMD]

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race isn't going to get you in. your gpa and mcat are. work on those instead of overthinking something so simple.

👍 co-sign X 10

ChemEngMD, you come across as very defensive and go out of your way to talk about URMs. it probably annoys you that although you are a strong applicant, people will write you off as having got to where you are because of favoritism based on your skin.

countless URMs are granted admission to schools they otherwise wouldn't have cut the mustard at simply because of their race. these applicants make no indication whatsoever that they intend to help the under-served.

admitting URMs with low stats because they are black or latino is a quick-fix. the real problem is the terrible socio-economic issues that hinder more of these people from becoming competitive based on merit alone. we ought to admit the most well-rounded students with the highest stats for the benefit and advancement of healthcare and science.

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list your race, no matter what. This attempt at deceiving the adcoms is sure to fail. If they want to base decisions on race, they will invite more people to interview at the applicants expense in order to figure out who is who. any proposal suggesting that your personality could impress upon the adcoms to the point of discarding their racial agendas and accepting you seems naive.

It does bother me that people assume that, but trust I've gotten a lot more bad than good in my life due to the color of my skin. Adcoms on this site though have said that there are far more students let in with below average stats because mommy or daddy wrote a fat check or because mommy or daddy are a graduate of the university then there are URMs. Mind you between '05 and '07 only a little under 8,000 URMs were admitted (about 43.6%) and a little over 36,000 whites (48.6%) and a little over 11,000 Asians (45.3%) were admitted during that same period. So trust that there isn't a highly absurd percentage of us getting in...it's just that we have a lot less applicants so some with "less than stellar" numbers are let in. And who knows...maybe they have crazy good ECs or killer LORs ...don't just assume they get in due to race.

 

[kellay]

Beyond the "underserved areas" arugment for why URM standing is necessary, I think people are often more comfortable visiting a doctor of thier own race. Have you shadowed a minority doctor? They often have many patients of the same race. I know a number of adults who visit a doctor of the same race as them because it helps facilitate patient/physician trust.

 

[theslowclap]

ChemEngMD:

You're very lost and should be quiet now.

URM does not equal AA man

Wow, what an intelligent response. I guess it’s true that smart people say smart things. Way to dodge the issue by calling me lost and telling me to shut up.

Okay, then tell me, what is URM if it’s not a way to label someone in order to give them some extra consideration in the whole process. Tell me, why label people in the first place if they’re not going to evaluate them on some other level? You seem to love fuzzy logic my friend. As long as it benefits you, it seems you like to side with ignorance. You think they label URMs to give them a disadvantage in the admissions process? Hmmm… or even worse, for cosmetic or statistical bragging rights? But please, to get back on topic I want you to do the following for me:

• Define Affirmative Action
• Tell me what URM is and why adcoms use it

It does bother me that people assume that, but trust I've gotten a lot more bad than good in my life due to the color of my skin.

Yea? And you try growing up asian in a predominantly black neighborhood and you tell me what the color of your skin gets you.

Adcoms on this site though have said that there are far more students let in with below average stats because mommy or daddy wrote a fat check or because mommy or daddy are a graduate of the university then there are URMs. Mind you between '05 and '07 only a little under 8,000 URMs were admitted (about 43.6%) and a little over 36,000 whites (48.6%) and a little over 11,000 Asians (45.3%) were admitted during that same period. So trust that there isn't a highly absurd percentage of us getting in...it's just that we have a lot less applicants so some with "less than stellar" numbers are let in.

Again, way to dodge the subject. I don’t care how many people are admitted due to legacies, we were discussing giving preferences based on race. I must admit that preferential treatment in the form of legacies are wrong. But that doesn’t make URM preference any better IMO. Come on now, this is 2nd grader logic. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

And who knows...maybe they have crazy good ECs or killer LORs ...don't just assume they get in due to race.

This has got to be the most frustrating statement I constantly hear from people like you. What are you implying? Every other race doesn’t have crazy good ECs or killer LORs? Every other race doesn’t do so hot at interviews? Every other race is devoid of personality? Tell me exactly what your logic implies. Please.

 

[Narmerguy]

Yea? And you try growing up asian in a predominantly black neighborhood and you tell me what the color of your skin gets you.

Oh please you have got to be kidding me.

This has got to be the most frustrating statement I constantly hear from people like you. What are you implying? Every other race doesn't have crazy good ECs or killer LORs? Every other race doesn't do so hot at interviews? Every other race is devoid of personality? Tell me exactly what your logic implies. Please.

Don't worry, all of us have representatives with below par stats. It's just that some races aren't second-guessed as much as others.

 

[jasonbourne]

I notice that many people always miss the main point. They always try to characterize affirmative action as a way to admit underqualified minorities. This is not the case. In fact, affirmative action policies instead encourage the admission of minorities who are qualified. Note that race is not the only factor. There are many other factors considered. Affirmative action was put in place by JFK when he realized that blacks were still being discriminated against even in many cases when they where qualified. Ask yourselves where minorities in this country would have been if affirmative action was not implemented.

 

[jasonbourne]

I was going to leave that blank on mine, too, because I think that not being a URM could potentially hurt me. But then, I realized, my full name is so obviously not anything diverse, and they would know right away that I'm white. Bummer.
Personally, though, I think the whole URM thing is complete bull. I mean really, I understand that they're under-represented, and medical schools want more diversity, but does that really mean that URM's should be considered more than a white or Asian person with the same or better stats? It doesn't seem right to me. People want equality, but this puts URM's higher than whites and Asians, where race SHOULD NOT even be a considering factor, at all, in my opinion! People are so worried about inequality among minorities that they've swung it in the opposite direction...😕

Only 1 % of cases in America are reverse discrimination cases. When you try to imply reverse discrimination, you should think of discrimination minorities face in society. Take note of that. Black people were seized from Africa and got their asses kicked for more than a century. It amazes me that many people among the majority actually think there is a huge conspiracy to keep white folks out of professional schools. There are more black men in Jail than in college. The justice system is broken.

Note: The reason why people are worried is because they know that racism still exists today. Think of how terrible the conditions would have been for minorities today if JFK had not implemented affirmative action. Affirmative actiondoesnt even have as huge of an impact as the racists police we have on the streets.

 

[guestdoc]

Only 1 % of cases in America are reverse discrimination cases. When you try to imply reverse discrimination, you should think of discrimination minorities face in society. Take note of that. Black people were seized from Africa and got their asses kicked for more than a century. It amazes me that many people among the majority actually think there is a huge conspiracy to keep white folks out of professional schools. There are more black men in Jail than in college. The justice system is broken.

Note: The reason why people are worried is because they know that racism still exists today. Think of how terrible the conditions would have been for minorities today if JFK had not implemented affirmative action. Affirmative actiondoesnt even have as huge of an impact as the racists police we have on the streets.

Wow. First, I like your random statistic. Second, not good logic. I think we're talking about today, here and now. In the past, some of my ancestors were kicked around, too. Do I deserve anything from that?

Read some of Cosby's stuff, read Obama's latest treaty to the NAACP. Don't jump so quickly to say the "justice system is broken". The moral and honor system is broken. The integrity system is broken. The "golden rule" system is broken, if you ask me. A few million people in jail (many more than we would ever want, and it really is a burden on the rest) doesn't mean they don't deserve to be there. I'm sure there are individual cases, but I'm just sayin' that in today's society, I get advised to not only lock my car, but to remove anything of value from it so it doesn't get broken in to. Seriously, people? It's obviously not your stuff, and stealing is bad, ok? Not that hard.

It didn't do any good to give preferential treatment based on race 50 years ago (and I would also like to submit that it was wrong), and likewise it doesn't do any good today, and is just as wrong.

And yes, this is very frustrating to me, too, theslowclap!

Quote:
And who knows...maybe they have crazy good ECs or killer LORs ...don't just assume they get in due to race.

QUOTE: theslowclap: This has got to be the most frustrating statement I constantly hear from people like you. What are you implying? Every other race doesn't have crazy good ECs or killer LORs? Every other race doesn't do so hot at interviews? Every other race is devoid of personality? Tell me exactly what your logic implies. Please.

 

[jasonbourne]

Delete

 

[jasonbourne]

I know my post is long, but make sure you read it if you really want to understand. You might miss the context if you don't read the whole thing to understand my view point.
1) Definition of Affirmative Action:
Specific actions in recruitment, hiring, upgrading and other areas designed and taken for the purpose of eliminating the present effects of past discrimination, or to prevent discrimination. This applies to minorities, women, and the disabled.
2) Is affirmative action a quota system?
Answer: No, affirmative action is not a quota system. That would be illegal in the United States of America. The Supreme Court only upholds quota systems in cases where there is lots of evidence of blatant discrimination. The Supreme Court has already stated that affirmative action can't be used as a quota system. Prove of Affirmative Action not being a quota system can be found in "Parents v. Seattle and Meredith v. Jefferson." The Supreme Court also clearly stated that race can't be used as the only factor in hiring. There must be many other qualities used. If you have a white and a black who are both equally or similarly qualified (either one may be slightly greater than the other), that is when affirmative action plays a role in admissions. The reason is because everybody knows that the blacks are underrepresented. If the white kid is chosen over the black kid when we already know that whites are the over represented people, who are you helping and who are you hurting? You are clearly doing a great disservice not just to the black community but to America as a whole. Many would even say you are discriminating because you are further hurting a community that is underrepresented. The reason is that we seek to promote diversity among professions in America. Nobody is trying to say that the white kid is not qualified, neither is anyone trying to belittle his hard work and achievements. We all know that the white Kid is qualified. All I am saying is that affirmative action promotes diversity in America. I don't think there is a big difference between a 3.6 white student and a 3.5 black student. Neither do I think there is a big difference between a 3.6 black student and a 3.5 white student. I consider both these kids to be qualified. In such a situation, affirmative action can be used. However, there is a big difference between a 3.0 black student, and a 3.5 white student. In such a case, I firmly believe that choosing the black kid over the white kid is discrimination. We can't call this affirmative action because that would be flat out discrimination.
The Most Common Misconception about Affirmative Action
Does it encourage the admission of under qualified minorities?
Answer: That is false. It was a policy instituted so that qualified minorities should be given an equal chance. In fact there is proof to show that the Supreme Court has struck down decisions by schools or Institutions that tried to favor under qualified minorities. The Supreme Court ruled recently in the "new haven firefighter case" that the test couldn't be thrown out because very few minorities passed the test. In fact, JFK advocated equality among all races. However, he knew that blacks were being discriminated against and that is why he implemented Affirmative Action.
March 6 1961: Executive Order 10925 makes the first reference to "affirmative action"

President John F. Kennedy issues Executive Order 10925, which creates the Committee on Equal Employment Opportunity and mandates that projects financed with federal funds "take affirmative action" to ensure that hiring and employment practices are free of racial bias.
Note that JFK says "free racial bias".
If we want racial equality, many of you would ask
"Why should affirmative action exist?"
The answer is simple; there are many racist bigots in society today who can't stand minorities. If there was no racism in society, then there would be no need for affirmative action. However, racism is still alive and well today. Also, I must state that promoting diversity among all races is key to our success as a nation. Even in the absence of affirmative action and racism, promoting diversity so that no ethnic group feels left out is important.
Note: The thing we must clearly be against is the acceptance of individuals who are not qualified whether they are black or white. That is totally wrong and that is not the basis of affirmative action. That would be discrimination.
Let me leave you guys with this question
We all know that most blacks in America have been victims of racial abuse. In fact, I was abused 2 times in 2007 and one time last year. It still happens in America even if it is too subtle to notice.
Without affirmative action, do you think minorities would have felt comfortable applying to various institutions?
Think of where we would be as a nation if affirmative action was not implemented. I hope racism is eradicated so that we can get over this controversial policy. However, racism is still alive and well in society. It has just put on different clothes and we all know it.

Note to all those against affirmative action:
I totally understand where you are coming. I understand why you sometimes feel left out but lets remember, we need to look at the society as a whole. It is perfectly ok for us to disagree. Disagreement is sometimes very fruitful.

 

[hospitaldoctor1]

both of my parents did not attend college... is that looked down upon?
why do they ask what your parents do and if they went to college?

 

[OneMCATAway]

it sucks that there is not even an "other" section in the ethnicity! do you guys consider middle eastern white?!

 

[theslowclap]

Yea? And you try growing up asian in a predominantly black neighborhood and you tell me what the color of your skin gets you.

Oh please you have got to be kidding me.

Oh please yourself. What are you trying to imply? Do you know me? Do you know how many times I've been robbed at gunpoint? Do you know how many times my life was on the line? You cowards need to stop implying **** and say it. The point I was making was that race isn't so black and white. People have different experiences independent of their skin colors. If you accept the notion that we should try to look favorably on one race because of past evils, then I don't understand why my statement would be so ridiculous to you. In fact, you should be applauding it and sending letters to your congressman for me to receive special treatment in employment and admissions for my entire race because of my individual experience.

Another thing is you make it sound like other races haven't faced hardships in America. Have you heard of asians building the railroads? Have you heard of internment camps? In no way am I saying that this is equivalent to slavery, but many of the minorities that came to America had slavery in their home country. Some were durt poor and came to America to escape the threat of being a servant. Other minorities are still minorities. We face the exact same type of discrimination as URMs. The reason that your logic doesn't make sense is because if systematic racism was in place in med school admissions, specifically, then asians wouldn't be allowed in. There would be a racist, active effort to keep ALL minorities out. I don't think you'd try to argue that somehow the "white man who controls everything" (by the way, I don't agree with this view of society, e.g. look at who are president is) favors asians over other minorities. This is why I don't understand your argument.

 

[jkurtz02]

This argument is getting way off topic and becoming more of an argument of I deserve to get in because something happened to me once. At some point in this country all races were discriminated against. I would consider the Irish about as white as you get and does everyone remember "Irish need not apply", and there actually were quotas on Jews when my grandfather applied to schools. The reason URM exists (and I agree with it) is because in GENERAL (note this doesn't mean everyone in this race was and it doesn't mean you were) these races/ethnicities are still not given a fair shake in many things leading to medical school so this is an attempt to give them a chance if they deserve it. This is why a URM's stats might be below some others, not because they aren't qualified, but because they had extenuating factors that did not allow them to have the stats. When it comes to this the interview is the equalizing factor. Yes non-URMs may have gone through this and many URMs did not, but if you walk through a top university or med school you won't look around and go wow there are no Asians here.

 

[Web MD]

If you're serious about a career in medicine, you might consider changing your ethnicity?

 

[Metallica1936]

I think that a part of the reason there is still racism in pockets of America is because people are still considered to be of a different race. That naturally brings up feelings of animosity, especially when people feel another race is getting a leg up just because they are of that race. If you wish to help underrepresented individuals, start helping them in high school or earlier NOT for medical school. We are playing with people's livelihoods here.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

I've always been deeply disturbed by the whole URM and AA concept. Why in the world is it acceptable in admissions to consider race equal to socioeconomic status? Where else in the world is attributing a characteristic to an entire race not considered racism?

You argument was: if you're a URM, you will go back to your underserved community and make the world a better place.
There are so many things wrong with that. I don't know where to start.
1. If you're white, it doesn't automatically mean you're rich. If you're a URM, it doesn't automatically mean you're poor or ever faced hardships.
2. Just because you come from somewhere underserved, doesn't mean you'll want to be a doctor there after you graduate. In fact, I would bet that people want to avoid these places as much as possible. What, you think many minorities live in the poor part of town by choice?

Does it make sense to have a different category for race when they already take disadvantaged backgrounds into account? Does it make sense to consider race when they already look at socioeconomic status? I usually only get anecdotal, sob stories from people who benefit from URM status. The fact of the matter is that they are admitted with far less competitive stats and other applicants notice this difference. If you don't think this perpetuates prejudice, then I don't know what does.

And don't tell me I don't know what it's like to be poor. Trust me: been there, done that. But I'm Asian so adcoms don't give two craps about the concentration of melanin in my skin.

Also, to the guy who is half Hispanic. This example is a perfect illustration of systematic racism. If you people are familiar with the way the US categorized race historically, you'd know that as soon as you have a drop of minority blood, they would consider you 100% minority. Read about this and you'll understand. It's very much the same way today. For some reason the mentality that a person is "tainted" with this foreign blood still lingers today.


Also note: just by throwing out the word "diversity" in no way answers the question of why it is important. There is nothing intrinsically favorable about diversity. You want to learn about culture? Go to a different country. You want to learn how to work with different people? Go outside. But the idea that you're learning to "deal" with "these different colored people" just by sitting next to some ambassador of an entire race in classes is highly offensive to me.

I know someone here will tell me racism is still alive. But that's not what we're talking about here. This is a knee jerk response I always hear. We both agree that racism is still here. We disagree that AA and URM is the way to fight it. Had to throw this last part in because I'm sure someone would have brought it up.

https://www.aamc.org/download/157958/data/table25-w-mcatgpa-grid-white-0810.pdf.pdf

More whites get in with MCATs under 23 than blacks with 23 so I wouldn't say economics play no part. And if you are so concerned about seats why are you not complaining about all the ORMs that get in with low stats?

ChemEngMD, you come across as very defensive and go out of your way to talk about URMs. it probably annoys you that although you are a strong applicant, people will write you off as having got to where you are because of favoritism based on your skin.

countless URMs are granted admission to schools they otherwise wouldn't have cut the mustard at simply because of their race. these applicants make no indication whatsoever that they intend to help the under-served.

admitting URMs with low stats because they are black or latino is a quick-fix. the real problem is the terrible socio-economic issues that hinder more of these people from becoming competitive based on merit alone. we ought to admit the most well-rounded students with the highest stats for the benefit and advancement of healthcare and science.

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list your race, no matter what. This attempt at deceiving the adcoms is sure to fail. If they want to base decisions on race, they will invite more people to interview at the applicants expense in order to figure out who is who. any proposal suggesting that your personality could impress upon the adcoms to the point of discarding their racial agendas and accepting you seems naive.

Lol Countless ORMs are given seats with low stats. While URMs may get in at a higher % the fact remains that they take up less seats than their ORM counterparts with comparable stats.

And saying that the URM thing is a quick fix might be true (not really since you have to work in medschool) the solution you proposed in nothing but a pipe dream and offered no plan to fix the problem.

 

[GeronimoMD]

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[GeronimoMD]

Thanks for reviving this old thread! LOL At my State medical school, they have two Hispanic students and 1 black student. I really feel bad for those three superior white/Asian students who lost their chance to be a doctor because of "URM preference." 😉


It also saddens me that some people in this country don't recall that not too long ago people of color were not even allowed to eat at the same restaurant much less have equal access to higher education. Grow up people, if being a URM was a sure thing then medical schools would be filled with only black, native American or Hispanic students. However, that is not the case. Oh, I am Asian/White hybrid if you are wondering. LOL

 

[Espadaleader]

It took me 19 years until I saw a black physician. There are no minority professors PERIOD in my undergrad - not even asian. I wondered if it was possible for me to go to medical school - not because of GPA, but because I have never seen a person like me graduate college, let alone get a MD. URMs in medicine are more than what you guys think. The doctor I shadow is black - when other blacks and URMs see him, they have faith - they believe the are more than just a stat. Alot of you guys live in a different world. Very different. No ORM can say they never saw someone that looks like them before practicing medicine. NOW, I am not saying white and asian docs can't be role models too - in fact most of my mentors, and my stepfather are white. Im just saying its a plus to have diversity. You guys should stop the hate on SDN. I have a great GPA, great everything - but I question myself, "can I be a good doc?" because all I hear is "URM are not qualified". It hurts, alot. I am glad they are making psy prereqs cause then ppl will understand.

 

[n3xa]

I don't think it matters.

But considering all schools require interviews, and some even require a picture with your secondary...you might as well list it because it's pretty easy to figure out.

Thanks partially to genetics, my mom harping on me all those years to wear sunscreen, and my brief goth phase stint+library tan I often get mistaken for every other Asian category.

So, no. 😡

 

[MayoorBust]

It took me 19 years until I saw a black physician. There are no minority professors PERIOD in my undergrad - not even asian. I wondered if it was possible for me to go to medical school - not because of GPA, but because I have never seen a person like me graduate college, let alone get a MD. URMs in medicine are more than what you guys think. The doctor I shadow is black - when other blacks and URMs see him, they have faith - they believe the are more than just a stat. Alot of you guys live in a different world. Very different. No ORM can say they never saw someone that looks like them before practicing medicine. NOW, I am not saying white and asian docs can't be role models too - in fact most of my mentors, and my stepfather are white. Im just saying its a plus to have diversity. You guys should stop the hate on SDN. I have a great GPA, great everything - but I question myself, "can I be a good doc?" because all I hear is "URM are not qualified". It hurts, alot. I am glad they are making psy prereqs cause then ppl will understand.[/QUOTE]

 

[n3xa]

It took me 19 years until I saw a black physician. There are no minority professors PERIOD in my undergrad - not even asian. I wondered if it was possible for me to go to medical school - not because of GPA, but because I have never seen a person like me graduate college, let alone get a MD. URMs in medicine are more than what you guys think. The doctor I shadow is black - when other blacks and URMs see him, they have faith - they believe the are more than just a stat. Alot of you guys live in a different world. Very different. No ORM can say they never saw someone that looks like them before practicing medicine. NOW, I am not saying white and asian docs can't be role models too - in fact most of my mentors, and my stepfather are white. Im just saying its a plus to have diversity. You guys should stop the hate on SDN. I have a great GPA, great everything - but I question myself, "can I be a good doc?" because all I hear is "URM are not qualified". It hurts, alot. I am glad they are making psy prereqs cause then ppl will understand.

In undergrad, I had a very different view of URMs, and a very negative one at that. It hurts when your URM peers party hard, have the grades to show for it, and then shrug it off by saying they will get in because they are URM. Way to miss the point, man.

There was a bit of tension on campus between between URMs and non-URMs because of the lack of merit-based or need-based fellowships. And then the URMs constantly thinking that every negative thing that happens is due to the color of their skin and not because of something else. Lather, rinse, repeat.

It wasn't until I moved the hell out of my home state that I began to mellow out. And it wasn't until I started counseling that I really saw how some clients are really drawn to those who "look like them," but that's another post entirely.


The real take-home lesson from all of this is to work hard, do your best, and be humble.

 

[CaptainSSO]

Oh my God. Why would you bump a thread from 2009? Especially a URM thread from 2009, the absolutely worst kind you could bump.

 

[Swiss Medical]

Hmmm...I do not know what to say to this, but I have albinism and have been comtemplating how adcoms will view this. I don't have red eyes though...

 

[GeronimoMD]

Looks like SDN will have to find a mod specializing in locking these stupid threads.

 

[Swiss Medical]

Looks like SDN will have to find a mod specializing in locking these stupid threads.

That is HILARIOUS!!! It is so funny because you juxtaposed the word "specializing" with "mod".......'cuz we are pre-med...and you know docs specialize..ahahhaha