Will M.B.A Help with Med School Admissions?

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Malaria Doc said:
1) Will a "top 10 MBA" and a glowing letter of rec from the former program chairman (who i've known for 10+ years) and
2) 4.0 post bacc in all the pre-requisites overshadow a very old (10+years) ivy undergrad GPA on the very light side? Excellent extra-curriculars.

3) Will I even get past screens? MD or DO ok.

I see tremendous potential in the application of my skill-set to the practice of medicine ( I want to run a free clinic). No MCAT yet.

P.S. I am 35++years old.
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1) In general, no, but it will be equivalant to a nice EC. There are some DO schools that will consider your combined uGPA and gGPA as your application GPA, which would help you.

2) Yes to a fair degree or to some extent, depending on the school. Of course it depends on how dismal an undergrad GPA we're talking about and how many added credits you plan to take.

3) If too dismal, you can always take advantage of the DO grade replacement policy, where only the most recent retake counts (provided credits are the same or greater).

What is your uGPA and BCPM? How many credits of postbac do you plan?
 
Yea, it prob won't help you that much, since MBA degree don't really show your ability to excel in sciences. The post bacc is nice, but your total GPA may hurt your app if it is under three.
 
Malaria Doc said:
Using D.O. grade replacement my sciences are a 3.9 with 45 post-bac credits at a 4 year college (one undergrad science class (Geology?) that wasnt replaced). Two years cutting edge research in neuroanesthesiology at major medical center and related medical school mission in third world. Total GPA including grad ~3.15. Amcas numbers too painful to mention.
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I see you are reluctant to give me a straight answer, which makes it harder for me to give you the best response. But I will respect your reticence.

With an MCAT score of ~30, you should get a look from DO schools that include grad grades in their consideration.

To get past screening at MD schools, your AMCAS undergrad cGPA (which includes the postbac) would need to be > 3.0 at most places, unless the MCAT score was so strong that it forced them to look further.

As an example, 2ish years ago, an SDNer with a 2.92 got an MCAT score of 43 and he got into one MD school.

Nontrads have a bit of an advantage in that they are more likely to have their entire application microanalyzed and great grades after a long hiatus away from school may be given great weight. This can yield positive results that wouldn't be predictable, but they also can't be relied on.

I hope you have more clinical experience and physician shadowing that is not international. The research looks great.

Are you applying this season?
 
Malaria Doc said:
Total GPA including grad ~3.15. Amcas numbers too painful to mention.
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The number we would like to have (since you are embarrassed about the uGPA alone) to evaluate your chances for MD admissions is your total GPA of all classes taken for undergraduate and post-bacc (so excluding graduate GPA). As Cat mentioned, it's going to be tough is this number is below 3.0
 
The thing is, your cum and sci GPA will hold you back if it is truly low. Like 2.7ish, with the post bacc, most likely wont do it for MD. I mean it always could happen, but the stats are against you if that is the case. If your GPA is under three, than you should prob keep taking courses. And no, the ivy status will most likely not help your app, especially if you did poorly in undergrad.
 
Malaria Doc said:
Do all DO prgrams include grad grades? Any suggestions for applications?

I thought I was lock for DO or caribbean with the above.
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I've seen posts in PreMed-Osteo that stated that certain DO schools do not include grad grades in their considerations (though if they receive the AACOMAS application, all the uGPA and gGPA grades are melded together anyway). They all do include post bac grades though. You might do Search there or post a thread to ask so you don't apply to such schools. Or call the schools you're most interested in.
 
I don't think Osteopathic schools will be too hot over an MBA. It's not even science related in the least bit.

Your GPA is probably around a 2.5-2.99 since you're too embarrassed to say. With the 3.9 science and say a 30 MCAT, I think some Osteopathic schools may be receptive, but it's not "locked" as you say it. If you have over a 3.0 cGPA without including your MBA, i'd say your possibilities are very high.

MD is simply not going to happen. Maybe you should have used the time you had learning how to balance a checkbook to do well in college. It worked out for your gf.
 
Actually Triage I am glad you commented, because quite frankly, it did work out for me, and very well indeed. While you eagerly anticipate your time doing digital disimpactions, I have been living a life that you will only ever be able to dream of. One of the reasons I didn't focus on med school the first time around was self-important jack***** like you.

I want to work in rural/underserved communities and make a difference, running a free clinic, regardless of the sacrifices I have to make to get there. An MBA combined with a medical degree would allow me to do that. In fact, I have several friends who are medical directors with these credentials. Hoping an adcom will have the vision to try something outside of the box...

If I dont do MD/DO maybe I will be CEO of a hospital and then it will be pure joy to wipe the smug satisfaction off of the face of a dismissive tool like you...
 
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:corny:

Anyway, your MD acceptance can also hinge on your state of residence. Look at MilkmanAl's MDApp as an example. If you're a CA resident, it will be extremely tough. If you have a lenient state school, then it may be possible, especially with your great postbacc GPA
 
Malaria Doc said:
Actually Triage I am glad you commented, because quite frankly, it did work out for me, and very well indeed. While you look forward to your time doing digital disimpaction for minimum wage, I will be living a life that you can only dream of. I am a multi-seven figure guy who never has to work another day in his life, and didnt do med school the first time around because I didnt want to deal with self-important jack***** like you in the first place. Maybe, just maybe some adcom will have the vision to try something outside of the box rather than the same routine that has has gotten U.S. healthcare to where it is today...

If I dont do MD/DO maybe I will be CEO of a hospital and then it will be pure joy to wipe the smug satisfaction off of the faces of tools like you..

Enjoy your time with Obamacare.
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The first time around you couldn't have because you had a 2.5ish GPA, so not even a point about the "jerks."

There's something telling about a person whose ego is so fragile as to shatter over online banter.

You can go ahead and do whatever you'd like if you become a CEO of a hospital. Maybe one day you'll realize that your behavior is more likely derived from the fact that your ego is hurt from being unable to be a doctor.

I have a hard time believing your income, but I'll tell you straight up I'm not a multi-seven-figure guy. In fact, I probably never will be. Would I like to be? Sure, but there are bigger priorities for me and there are many things I would like. You can go ahead and define yourself for the amount your bank account has, but don't assume others will define themselves that way too.
 
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TriagePreMed said:
I don't think Osteopathic schools will be too hot over an MBA. It's not even science related in the least bit.
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So tell me genius, the year of statistics that is required at every business school in the country, both graduate and undergraduate, how is that not "M?"

Here is a link to Duke's pre-med advising office in case you have any doubt that you are 100% wrong in your statement.http://prehealth.duke.edu/applying/the-primary-application/calculating-the-bcpm-gpa/
There is something telling about a person who makes statements that they dont have sufficient knowledge to make. Yet you believe that you are smart and knowledgeable, and that your opinion matters. How could you be wrong about BPCM, which is probably your entire life at this point? Could you even admit your error? Your ego is probably too fragile. Sounds like a malpractice suit waiting to happen.

What you believe doesnt matter to me in the slightest. Anytime you would like to make a wager to stand behind your words, please let me know.:laugh:
 
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Malaria Doc said:
So tell me smart "guy," the year of statistics that is required at almost every business school in the country, both graduate and undergraduate,
how is that not "M?" Duh.

See, you really arent that smart or even knowledgeable. Yet you feel that you are and that your opinion matters. Sounds like a malpractice suit waiting to happen. What you believe doesnt matter to me in the slightest. Anytime you would like to make a 7 figure wager to stand behind your words, let me know. Enjoy the disimpaction.:laugh:
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There's debate out there as to whether mathematics is even considered a science. The ones that argue that it isn't would say it's because you don't observe a phenomenon and go from there.

Coincidentally, you that want to apply to Osteopathic schools should know that no Osteopathic school in the country calculates your math courses as a part of your science GPA. Many MD schools don't even require any mathematics, although it is part of the science GPA. While you may found some loophole to say 2 classes you took are science, I think you'll have a hard time convincing any ADCOM of your scientific prowess with an MBA.

If I don't matter to you at all, why do you keep replying? Stop kidding yourself. Work on your ego. It will actually benefit you in the long term.
 
There is no debate. It is part of Amcas BPCM. Be a big girl and admit that you are wrong.

It will actually benefit you in the long term. :laugh:
 
Malaria Doc said:
There is no debate. It is part of Amcas BPCM. Be a big girl and admit that you are wrong.

It will actually benefit you in the long term. :laugh:
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Short response this time? All you could come up with?

I have no problem admitting my mistakes. My mistake was not to say that math is not a part of your science GPA. My mistake was that I wrote a sentence like "your MBA is not science in the least bit" because "least bit" leaves room for exploitation of the phrase by any exception. Sure, I didn't account for the statistics in many MBA degrees. I still don't know if yours had it as a requisite. However, like I said, you'll have a hard time convincing anyone of scientific prowess by referencing your MBA.

It's actually surprising how much your behavior mirrors childhood bullying with the "I will use your phrase against you" type of behavior. Yes, I expect you to do it again with that phrase.
 
Why are you both acting like you are 5 years old? And you want to be future doctors?! Please take it offline if you have nothing helpful to say to each other. Thank you.
 
My sincere apologies to the rest of the forum. Obviously I have come here seeking assistance, and I value that assistance. On the other hand, I shouldn't have to tolerate abuse.
 
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Malaria Doc said:
A 4.0 post-bacc in all of the pre-reqs plus some upper levels gets me no love in and of itself, not even with DOs? Am I in denial? I thought grad degree would be nice bonus...
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MBA is not considered a real graduate degree. Most people know that the only reason the MBA was invented was because businessmen's ego was tormented by the fact that lawyers get a J.D. and doctors an M.D./D.O. Nowadays you can even get an MBA from University of Phoenix. The one from your "top 10" school is only worth it because of brand recognition and the networking. It has nothing to do with academic rigor.
 
TriagePreMed said:
MBA is not considered a real graduate degree. Most people know that the only reason the MBA was invented was because businessmen's ego was tormented by the fact that lawyers get a J.D. and doctors an M.D./D.O. Nowadays you can even get an MBA from University of Phoenix. The one from your "top 10" school is only worth it because of brand recognition and the networking. It has nothing to do with academic rigor.
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You've been reported. Now please go away.
 
Malaria Doc said:
You've been reported. Now please go away.
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You can go report me if you'd like, but I'm giving you an honest point of view on the MBA degree. It's not a research degree. It's not a science degree. It's not known for academic rigor. You should reevaluate how far you think your degree can get you.
 
I think that some school would appreciate an MBA degree. After all, there are MD+MBA options. There are a lot of business aspects to being a physician. More than likely, the business courses that I took in undergrad will help me later on such as how to write a business plan.

Well, I'm back to :corny:
 
TriagePreMed said:
MBA is not considered a real graduate degree. Most people know that the only reason the MBA was invented was because businessmen's ego was tormented by the fact that lawyers get a J.D. and doctors an M.D./D.O. Nowadays you can even get an MBA from University of Phoenix. The one from your "top 10" school is only worth it because of brand recognition and the networking. It has nothing to do with academic rigor.
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I don't know if I agree with you. I graduated with an MBA degree from a Top-20 school and I felt the program was very rigorous. Why do you consider it to be "bad" or inferior degree? It is because it has less to do with science and more to do with business? If anything, understanding business concepts (finance, accounting, economics) is useful for a future doctor.
 
PTWOB02 said:
I don't know if I agree with you. I graduated with an MBA degree from a Top-20 school and I felt the program was very rigorous. Why do you consider it to be "bad" or inferior degree? It is because it has less to do with science and more to do with business? If anything, understanding business concepts (finance, accounting, economics) is useful for a future doctor.
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I don't necessarily consider it to be a "bad" degree. My experience talking to business leaders is that most of them only find it beneficial for the networking. I have a few friends that have gotten an MBA not because they want it but because instead they were forced if they wanted to go up the ladder. I believe an undergraduate business degree or even community college courses in business can give you the necessary tools for starting your own business or even be able to function in the business world. The other part to business is your drive and personality. The MBA is not meant as a rigorous academic degree. It's a professional degree that's unnecessary. Unlike professional degrees like law, medicine, and pharmacy, the MBA is not necessary to be a businessman and doesn't make you an expert in business either. Like I said, it's mainly a degree that was invented to add prestige where there isn't. That's why they had to invent the weekend programs, executive programs, and distance learning.

I do agree doctors need to understand finance, accounting, and economics, but I do think that an MBA is excessive if that's the goal.

Edit: http://www.thebigmoney.com/articles/judgments/2009/03/25/rip-mba
 
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I think MBA's are prob very useful for doctors and their careers, but I think the point of the post was is if it will help the OP get into medical schools. The problem I see is it does not test any science. Its very good that the OP got a 4.0 post bacc and that will help, but I don't think the MBA will carry much wait for its lack of a science foundation. As always, it will always come down the GPA, MCAT, EC, the interview, etc. So I would advise you to look at your cum GPA and sci, MCAT if you have it, and see what else you need to do to increase your chances. Since your GPA is very low, you will need to do some GPA repair.
 
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Dr. Kevin Schulman, Director of the MD/MBA program at Duke says, "Today's healthcare issues are management issues for which most physicians are woefully unprepared. Quality, safety, patient satisfaction, resource allocation, and process improvement are all management concepts where we have tools available to address these issues that are not being utilized to their full extent. Broader questions about structure and financing of healthcare services and technologies are all business issues as well. Even not-for-profit organizations need management skills and capabilities."

One of my least favorite things about SDN is uninformed p*** pre-meds freely inflicting their opinions on others, but perhaps that is the nature of the beast. What this website really needs is an "Ask the Adcom Member" thread. Some adcom members have contacted me with useful insights and I appreciate that.

For what its worth, and it may not be worth much, the surgeon general is an MD-MBA, and personally I see the degree as the "ultimate" training for the next generation of medical leaders. My hope was that adcoms would look at me as someone who was already "halfway" there.

http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/about/biographies/biosg.html
http://www.nextgenmd.org/archives/320

For everyone who has asked, I got a 34 on the AAMC practice exam that I took yesterday. In my opinion the CFA exam is twice as "rigorous."
 
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FattySlug said:
There are posts bragging about AAMC practice exams scores now?
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A data point is a data point. Several people have asked. Why so negative/ quick with cheap attacks, and so slow to offer any commentary with real insight or value?
 
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Malaria Doc said:
One of my least favorite things about SDN is uninformed p*** pre-meds freely inflicting their opinions on others, but perhaps that is the nature of the beast. What this site really needs is an "Ask the Adcom Member" thread. Some adcom members have contacted me with useful insights and I appreciate that.
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So basically if it goes with your opinion, it means that it's correct. You also seem to be above the pre-meds and "know your stuff." Why post here then? You already "know" your MBA will be seen positively.
 
This has been a fun thread to watch. For what it is worth, I really don't think the AAMC practice tests are very indicative of the real test. One, they simply are not as hard in my opinion, and two, there is no way to fully model your stress level (high or low) on test day. Just an opinion. Surely when you took the GMAT, it must have been fairly different from your practice tests?

And my 2 cents. An MBA is a networking degree, but I say this with respect for the process and time put in to it. My girlfriend is a Goldman IB'er and she/her coworkers will echo that. It is useful if your employer is willing to pay for it because corporate advancement is contingent on the masters, or if you are looking to radically switch fields/industries. It is hard to say how an adcom will look at the degree, but I certainly don't think it makes you look worse. And judging from your above postings, I think with a solid MCAT, you should have a real shot at MD and DO programs. Most people are so ready to doomsday applicants. I got in with a 6 sub-section on my MCAT. Before that, I was told that I basically had no shot. Go for it and good luck! 🙂
 
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Another premed who assumes that he knows more than the Surgeon General and the Director of the MD/MBA program at Duke. I weep for the future :laugh:
 
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